Shawn did you write this?? and if so are you talking about Abolitionists too? maybe ill respond to it sometime.
http://brainmeta.com/index.php?p=ethics
Full Version: Calling Out Shawn
Tone, see http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3066 for where that article is from. Yes, it's mine, but requires more explanation. I don't know if it's a fundamental difference in temperaments or if it's a miscommunication that causes the apparent, and maybe real, differences in opinion. Maybe it has also to do with upbringing and environmental factors. Additionally, it depends on definitions; how narrowly or broadly, precisely or fuzzily, you choose to define terms.
Your other question; yes, it includes Abolitionists. IMO, Life should not be about pleasure, but about meaning, God, expanded consciousness, understanding, Oneness. Pleasure may co-occur with these to some extent, but my argument is that it is not necessary for it to, and that if it doesn't, we should not follow the path of pleasure or of a 'hedonistic imperative', but rather answer to our higher calling.
Your other question; yes, it includes Abolitionists. IMO, Life should not be about pleasure, but about meaning, God, expanded consciousness, understanding, Oneness. Pleasure may co-occur with these to some extent, but my argument is that it is not necessary for it to, and that if it doesn't, we should not follow the path of pleasure or of a 'hedonistic imperative', but rather answer to our higher calling.
I see.. I guess my mind just tends to see meaning, god, expanded consciousness, understanding and Oneness as just other states, or things that bring about other states, and those states once again can be reduced to a net pleasure/pain. my mind cant think of anything that doesnt reduce to pleasure and pain, except for non-consciousness or ceasing to exist. perhaps becomming one with everything is sort of like the same.
Well then i wish you both happiness and higher meaning
Well then i wish you both happiness and higher meaning
QUOTE
Anhedonia
Written by Colin Brennan, medical journalist
Anhedonia, the inability to gain pleasure from normally pleasurable experiences - a concept first identified in the 1890s - is throwing new light on depression in ground breaking research at the Institute of Psychiatry, London.
Anhedonia was largely ignored throughout the 20th Century in favour of more obvious symptoms of depression, which include low mood, poor concentration, tiredness, disturbed appetite and sleep, feelings of guilt and suicidal thoughts. But since the late 1980s, anhedonia has been recognised as a core symptom of depression, and is also present in schizophrenia and other mental disorders.
It is best described by examples. An anhedonic mother gains no joy from playing with her baby, a footballer is no longer excited when his team wins, a teenager is left unmoved by passing their driving test.
Anhedonia and depression
Not everybody suffering from depression has anhedonia, according to consultant psychiatrist Dr Tonmoy Sharma of the Maudsley Hospital, London. Many people who go into mild depression can be cheered by 'tea and sympathy'. But in severe depression, anhedonia becomes a serious problem.
'It's worse than not being able to get any joy from life,' says Dr Sharma. 'People in this state have an incredibly flat mood. They can't react properly or feel anything. There is no modulation of mood at all. They can't take things forward.' Depression strikes one in every five people at some time in their lives and is a potentially fatal illness through suicide. Anhedonia places a great strain on relationships and is usually accompanied by a loss of sex drive. Anhedonia can continue after depression, but usually it goes away at the same time.
Depression is often called the 'invisible illness'. Victims hide their symptoms for fear of being seen as unable to cope or as miseries. It can be triggered by a sad event like a bereavement, by a physical illness or by imbalances in brain chemistry that come apparently out of the blue. The desire to remove the stigma from depression and to find better treatments prompted Dr Sharma and his team in the Section of Cognitive Psychopharmacology at the Institute of Psychiatry to research anhedonia.
Watching the brain in action
Antidepressant medicines only partially deal with anhedonia symptoms. Dr Sharma hopes to identify specific areas of the brain involved with the problem. It might be that the limbic system, which has already been linked with pleasure, might be shown to work differently in people with anhedonia. Then it would be possible to target this area either with existing drugs, which can be shown to work, or with new medicines or psychological treatments.
Dr Sharma's team is using a new imaging technique called functional magnetic resonance imaging - fMRI - that scans the brain at work. Some differences in the brains of depressives have already been observed. For example, in comparison with healthy volunteers, depressives have smaller hippocampi - the area that deals with emotion - larger white matter lesions and differences in brain metabolism.
A previous study found that when depressed people were shown film clips designed to cause passing sadness, they activated areas of the brain - the left medial prefrontal cortex and the right anterior cingulate gyrus - that were not involved in the reaction of a group of healthy controls. The investigators suggested that this might disconnect the limbic system from the normal prioritisation of emotional importance. In this new study the brains of people with anhedonia are being examined.
In an interview with NetDoctor, Dr Tonmoy Sharma explains his research methods by saying that as he is talking, he is using the brain cells at the front part of his brain. The increase in neural activity in this area means there is an increased need for oxygen. This is delivered by the haemoglobin, which carries oxygen in the blood to all the cells of the body. When this happens, there is a difference in the magnetic properties between oxygenated haemoglobin and deoxygenated hemoglobin as the oxygen is brought to the active area of the brain, which is picked up by the MRI scan.
'We are treading new ground,' he says. 'Instead of just looking at the structures of the brain, we are examining its functioning. We are seeing the changes in the brain as they happen.'
Not only can the activity of the brain be recorded when the person moves or signals the answer to a question by pressing a button, it can also be observed when the brain is active during thinking or planning.
When a rose lover loses the ability to take pleasure even from the most luscious bloom, the researchers hope to be able to discover the normal reaction of the brain to the fragrance of a rose. They will be able to pinpoint the normal reaction, then observe when that's absent.
The search for treatments
The next step is to see what effects medicines and psychological therapy have on the brain. The brain can be scanned after the volunteer has been given antidepressive medicines to see what is happening. There are drugs that can treat depression successfully, but it is not known which drugs react on which parts of the brain. 'This is something that will be exciting to discover,' says Dr Sharma. 'When we know the effects on the brain of pharmacological and psychological therapies for depression, it will help us predict who is going to get depressed and also who is going to respond to treatment and what kind of treatment and who is likely to relapse. We will also be able to monitor the effects of the drugs as we give them.'
In the research, volunteers are shown film clips such as the famous comic orgasm scene from the movie When Harry met Sally, and slides to invoke emotions in people while they are having fMRI scans. If patients with depression and anhedonia show patterns of activity different from those who respond positively to the images, it will provide information on the pleasure responses in the brain and identify abnormalities.
Dr Sharma believes that when it is clearly demonstrated that depressive illness is caused by physical changes in the brain, even if it is triggered by life events or illness, the stigma attached to it will be removed. 'These are important advances that do give new hope for people who have suffered from depression and change our understanding of the illness,' he said.
Sharing experiences
Lizzie Gardiner, a 36-year-old writer and single mother from South London, told NetDoctor how depression and anhedonia affected her life. After several short bouts of the illness in her teenage years, she was hit by a major depression five years ago. It was brought on by a series of shattering life events - the break-up of her marriage, a move from one end of the country to another, bad health, financial problems and the threat of eviction.
Driven by the need to keep the lives of her two children as normal as possible, Lizzie somehow managed to keep going with the help of antidepressants and psychological treatment. She didn't know about anhedonia then, but she has since taken part in Dr Sharma's research.
Her anhedonia took many forms and partly remains with her. She is still unable to gain pleasure from her own achievements and to see that her children are a credit to her as well as to themselves. She recalls the anhedonia of some of her darkest moments when she sat down to listen to Elgar's Enigma variations and found to her horror that she was left completely unmoved by the hauntingly beautiful music she had always loved.
Lizzie, who has learned to live with her symptoms, spoke of how she was helped by being given information and reassurance when she was depressed. 'Up to now it has been an invisible illness,' she said. 'If this research can show physical evidence that depression is caused by changes in the brain, it will be immensely helpful in removing the stigma that is attached to it.' Bravely, she now shares her own experiences to help other people understand the problem.
Written by Colin Brennan, medical journalist
Anhedonia, the inability to gain pleasure from normally pleasurable experiences - a concept first identified in the 1890s - is throwing new light on depression in ground breaking research at the Institute of Psychiatry, London.
Anhedonia was largely ignored throughout the 20th Century in favour of more obvious symptoms of depression, which include low mood, poor concentration, tiredness, disturbed appetite and sleep, feelings of guilt and suicidal thoughts. But since the late 1980s, anhedonia has been recognised as a core symptom of depression, and is also present in schizophrenia and other mental disorders.
It is best described by examples. An anhedonic mother gains no joy from playing with her baby, a footballer is no longer excited when his team wins, a teenager is left unmoved by passing their driving test.
Anhedonia and depression
Not everybody suffering from depression has anhedonia, according to consultant psychiatrist Dr Tonmoy Sharma of the Maudsley Hospital, London. Many people who go into mild depression can be cheered by 'tea and sympathy'. But in severe depression, anhedonia becomes a serious problem.
'It's worse than not being able to get any joy from life,' says Dr Sharma. 'People in this state have an incredibly flat mood. They can't react properly or feel anything. There is no modulation of mood at all. They can't take things forward.' Depression strikes one in every five people at some time in their lives and is a potentially fatal illness through suicide. Anhedonia places a great strain on relationships and is usually accompanied by a loss of sex drive. Anhedonia can continue after depression, but usually it goes away at the same time.
Depression is often called the 'invisible illness'. Victims hide their symptoms for fear of being seen as unable to cope or as miseries. It can be triggered by a sad event like a bereavement, by a physical illness or by imbalances in brain chemistry that come apparently out of the blue. The desire to remove the stigma from depression and to find better treatments prompted Dr Sharma and his team in the Section of Cognitive Psychopharmacology at the Institute of Psychiatry to research anhedonia.
Watching the brain in action
Antidepressant medicines only partially deal with anhedonia symptoms. Dr Sharma hopes to identify specific areas of the brain involved with the problem. It might be that the limbic system, which has already been linked with pleasure, might be shown to work differently in people with anhedonia. Then it would be possible to target this area either with existing drugs, which can be shown to work, or with new medicines or psychological treatments.
Dr Sharma's team is using a new imaging technique called functional magnetic resonance imaging - fMRI - that scans the brain at work. Some differences in the brains of depressives have already been observed. For example, in comparison with healthy volunteers, depressives have smaller hippocampi - the area that deals with emotion - larger white matter lesions and differences in brain metabolism.
A previous study found that when depressed people were shown film clips designed to cause passing sadness, they activated areas of the brain - the left medial prefrontal cortex and the right anterior cingulate gyrus - that were not involved in the reaction of a group of healthy controls. The investigators suggested that this might disconnect the limbic system from the normal prioritisation of emotional importance. In this new study the brains of people with anhedonia are being examined.
In an interview with NetDoctor, Dr Tonmoy Sharma explains his research methods by saying that as he is talking, he is using the brain cells at the front part of his brain. The increase in neural activity in this area means there is an increased need for oxygen. This is delivered by the haemoglobin, which carries oxygen in the blood to all the cells of the body. When this happens, there is a difference in the magnetic properties between oxygenated haemoglobin and deoxygenated hemoglobin as the oxygen is brought to the active area of the brain, which is picked up by the MRI scan.
'We are treading new ground,' he says. 'Instead of just looking at the structures of the brain, we are examining its functioning. We are seeing the changes in the brain as they happen.'
Not only can the activity of the brain be recorded when the person moves or signals the answer to a question by pressing a button, it can also be observed when the brain is active during thinking or planning.
When a rose lover loses the ability to take pleasure even from the most luscious bloom, the researchers hope to be able to discover the normal reaction of the brain to the fragrance of a rose. They will be able to pinpoint the normal reaction, then observe when that's absent.
The search for treatments
The next step is to see what effects medicines and psychological therapy have on the brain. The brain can be scanned after the volunteer has been given antidepressive medicines to see what is happening. There are drugs that can treat depression successfully, but it is not known which drugs react on which parts of the brain. 'This is something that will be exciting to discover,' says Dr Sharma. 'When we know the effects on the brain of pharmacological and psychological therapies for depression, it will help us predict who is going to get depressed and also who is going to respond to treatment and what kind of treatment and who is likely to relapse. We will also be able to monitor the effects of the drugs as we give them.'
In the research, volunteers are shown film clips such as the famous comic orgasm scene from the movie When Harry met Sally, and slides to invoke emotions in people while they are having fMRI scans. If patients with depression and anhedonia show patterns of activity different from those who respond positively to the images, it will provide information on the pleasure responses in the brain and identify abnormalities.
Dr Sharma believes that when it is clearly demonstrated that depressive illness is caused by physical changes in the brain, even if it is triggered by life events or illness, the stigma attached to it will be removed. 'These are important advances that do give new hope for people who have suffered from depression and change our understanding of the illness,' he said.
Sharing experiences
Lizzie Gardiner, a 36-year-old writer and single mother from South London, told NetDoctor how depression and anhedonia affected her life. After several short bouts of the illness in her teenage years, she was hit by a major depression five years ago. It was brought on by a series of shattering life events - the break-up of her marriage, a move from one end of the country to another, bad health, financial problems and the threat of eviction.
Driven by the need to keep the lives of her two children as normal as possible, Lizzie somehow managed to keep going with the help of antidepressants and psychological treatment. She didn't know about anhedonia then, but she has since taken part in Dr Sharma's research.
Her anhedonia took many forms and partly remains with her. She is still unable to gain pleasure from her own achievements and to see that her children are a credit to her as well as to themselves. She recalls the anhedonia of some of her darkest moments when she sat down to listen to Elgar's Enigma variations and found to her horror that she was left completely unmoved by the hauntingly beautiful music she had always loved.
Lizzie, who has learned to live with her symptoms, spoke of how she was helped by being given information and reassurance when she was depressed. 'Up to now it has been an invisible illness,' she said. 'If this research can show physical evidence that depression is caused by changes in the brain, it will be immensely helpful in removing the stigma that is attached to it.' Bravely, she now shares her own experiences to help other people understand the problem.
no pleasure = anhedonia = depression = meaninglessness
Hence pleasure = meaningfulness?
Is that the rationale?
that's the question, of whether everything does reduce down to the pleasure/pain axis. Similar to the question of whether everything in the universe can be reduced down to 0's and 1's. Do we gain any explanatory power by this reduction when we contemplate a complicated scene? Also, is it true that depression always corresponds to meaninglessness and diminished consciousness, and that mania corresponds to meaningfulness and to some extent expanded consciousness?
QUOTE(Shawn @ Mar 04, 04:01 AM) 
Do we gain any explanatory power by this reduction when we contemplate a complicated scene?
In otherwords, the whole is not exactly the sum of its parts? what does the beauty of a whole painting have to do with its parts other than the parts make it up? i feel you there....
"Also, is it true that depression always corresponds to meaninglessness and diminished consciousness, and that mania corresponds to meaningfulness and to some extent expanded consciousness?"
Ive long had the thought that belief systems or really many things that someone is into is to some degree supported by their state of consciousness. i myself, being a depressive, always find it very difficult to get meaning out of things or to hold beliefs if you know what i mean.
THis is not new at all on this board im sure, but I basically believe the rationale of utilitarianism and abolitionism is the thought (or from my prespective a very real observation) that everything reduces to pleasure/pain axis , even creative meanings of life, and that this gives it an objective and logical meaning that is different from all other meanings of life....
QUOTE(Shawn @ Mar 04, 03:01 AM)
that's the question, of whether everything does reduce down to the pleasure/pain axis. Similar to the question of whether everything in the universe can be reduced down to 0's and 1's. Do we gain any explanatory power by this reduction when we contemplate a complicated scene? Also, is it true that depression always corresponds to meaninglessness and diminished consciousness, and that mania corresponds to meaningfulness and to some extent expanded consciousness?
hmm maybe the universe doesnt need to be reduced to 1's and 0's only represented?
QUOTE(Shawn @ Mar 04, 03:01 AM)
that's the question, of whether everything does reduce down to the pleasure/pain axis.
Assume that qualia is the 'guidance field' that directs the motion of consciousness. Assume further that qualia can be reduced to a set of axes (quals). Let 'suffering' be along a qual axis (the 'suffering/happiness' axis). Let it be assumed that consciousness is intrisically repelled from the 'suffering' end of the 'suffering/happiness' axis. If there are other qualia axes that are orthogonal to the 'suffering/happiness' axis, the evolution of consciousness is not always under the influence of 'suffering/happiness'. However, if there are no qual axes that are orthogonal to 'suffering/happiness', then 'suffering/happiness' is everpresent in directing the motion of consciousness.
If 'suffering/happiness' is an irreduceable qual (axis of qualia basis set), if consciousness is intrinsically repelled from the 'suffering' direction, and if there are no other irreduceable qual axes that are orthogonal to 'suffering/happiness', then the direction of the evolution of consciousness is rooted in the reduction (to the end of elimination) of suffering.
if
nice^
i suppose most would agree that if suffering/happiness is irreduceable that consciousness is intrinsically repelled from the suffering direction making the other direction the right one if one direction were to be motivated, but some would give opinions about 'balance' and ask why move in any direction. Clearly moving in the end of suffering direction has a purpose but what would be the purpose of maintaining any kind of so-called balance other than it being a creative thought?
If there is no intelligent design behind any 'balance' then be possible creative thought can turn ANY reality into a so-called balance. e.g. visualize a hypthetical: another planet with other beings exist in an entirely different reality than our own, yet they also have a yin yang philosophy of balance. In other words, if no intelligent balance exists, admit its possible for one to simply mistake whatever reality one happens to exist in for a spiritual sense of balance, it could and would happen.
Tone
i suppose most would agree that if suffering/happiness is irreduceable that consciousness is intrinsically repelled from the suffering direction making the other direction the right one if one direction were to be motivated, but some would give opinions about 'balance' and ask why move in any direction. Clearly moving in the end of suffering direction has a purpose but what would be the purpose of maintaining any kind of so-called balance other than it being a creative thought?
If there is no intelligent design behind any 'balance' then be possible creative thought can turn ANY reality into a so-called balance. e.g. visualize a hypthetical: another planet with other beings exist in an entirely different reality than our own, yet they also have a yin yang philosophy of balance. In other words, if no intelligent balance exists, admit its possible for one to simply mistake whatever reality one happens to exist in for a spiritual sense of balance, it could and would happen.
Tone
QUOTE(Dan @ Mar 04, 06:53 PM)
if consciousness is intrinsically repelled from the 'suffering' direction
Nice post, Dan. But that's the 'If' I question.
There is also something else to consider: Suffering, like pain, has two components; an affective component (believed by some to be expressed in the cingulate cortex and limbic system), and a sensory-discriminative component (probably expressed in the primary and secondary somatosensory cortices). Given that pain and suffering can be decomposed into simpler units, how can you say that it's a fundamental unit of anything? More importantly, in my own experience, there are different types of suffering and pain, but they mean different things to me, and have different effects on me, depending on my state of mind. If I am in a (simply put) 'strong' state of mind, then I easily absorb such pain or suffering and relish over said strength, with the result being that pain and suffering are actually a positive thing for me. If I am in a 'weaker' state of mind, the pain and suffering negatively effects me. And so, to characterize pain and suffering as intrinsically anything is open to question. What pain and suffering is, is something extrinsic, it is dependent on our state of mind.
To say that consciousness is intrinsically repelled from suffering is an interesting idea, but I think it's wrong unless you define suffering as equivalent to a diminishment of consciousness. Rather, I see consciousness in its expanded states as something that synthesizes all antitheses and absorbs all contradictions. Suffering and pain reside within the spectrum of consciousness, and as such, are synthesized into our states of consciousness. To remove pain and suffering is to remove part of the spectrum of consciousness. Why would you want to do that? IMO, a better strategy would be to expand and fortify consciousness and our state of mind to better assimilate and absorb pain and suffering. And there's no reason we can't experience the full range of emotions simultaneously or new ones yet to be experienced.
Tone, you've re-opened this Pandora's box
QUOTE(Shawn @ Mar 05, 01:38 AM)
There is also something else to consider: Suffering, like pain, has two components; an affective component (believed by some to be expressed in the cingulate cortex and limbic system), and a sensory-discriminative component (probably expressed in the primary and secondary somatosensory cortices). Given that pain and suffering can be decomposed into simpler units, how can you say that it's a fundamental unit of anything?
That's the 'given' I question. Perhaps, instead, each of these 'simpler units' taken in isolation is itself a superposition qual state, each containing a component along the 'suffering' axis. When these 'simpler units' are taken in combination (each of their components 'superposed') the qualia state that results is dominated by, but not identical to, the 'suffering' axis.
QUOTE
in my own experience, there are different types of suffering and pain, but they mean different things to me, and have different effects on me, depending on my state of mind.
Maybe they are not 'pure' suffering states, but rather superposition states with a strong 'suffering' component. The total 'qualia' (and hence the 'meaning') may be contaning more quals than 'suffering'. Even so, if the basis quals of this qualia state are not orthogonal to 'suffering', then 'suffering' will always be a factor in motion when in that state.
QUOTE
If I am in a (simply put) 'strong' state of mind, then I easily absorb such pain or suffering and relish over said strength, with the result being that pain and suffering are actually a positive thing for me. If I am in a 'weaker' state of mind, the pain and suffering negatively effects me. And so, to characterize pain and suffering as intrinsically anything is open to question. What pain and suffering is, is something extrinsic, it is dependent on our state of mind.
Just as before, let's consider that we are dealing with a large superposition state of quals (a complex 'qualia' state). If you take a particular qual direction in isolation and note that you prefer to travel down it in a way that increases 'suffering', you may inaccurately conclude that reduction of 'suffering' is not an absolute need. However, motion in a complex qualia state likely involves motion along multiple qual directions. Motion along each of the individual qual axes may then have a net effect on the 'suffering' component, such that you are actually experiencing a net reduction of 'suffering'.
QUOTE
More importantly, in my own experience, there are different types of suffering and pain, but they mean different things to me, and have different effects on me, depending on my state of mind.
Ok so there are different types of pain and suffering, which the term suffering here in this context refers to in general, all of them. 'negative' feelings. and there are different pleasures which in the context of what we are talking about here, pleasure or happiness refers to that group of feelings in general. 'positive' feelings.
QUOTE
If I am in a (simply put) 'strong' state of mind, then I easily absorb such pain or suffering and relish over said strength, with the result being that pain and suffering are actually a positive thing for me. If I am in a 'weaker' state of mind, the pain and suffering negatively effects me.
In otherwords, the pain and suffering in the 'strong' mindstate are either reduced, or eliminated! What you say here reminds me of how i see my thoughts as 'nothing' compared to my states. my thoughts are benign compared to my states. for instance, i very well could be having a negative thought about some experience or observation, i could take extra tramadol, and think the very same thoughts yet i am no in an enterly different reality because basically just my general state of feeling (non-thought non-emotion) is 'raised'. This looks like what you were just saying above, your strong states and pain VS. your weak states and pain. Lets do anything we can to keep sentient beings in these strong states, even if it means artifically altering our neurophysiology.
QUOTE
Suffering and pain reside within the spectrum of consciousness, and as such, are synthesized into our states of consciousness. To remove pain and suffering is to remove part of the spectrum of consciousness. Why would you want to do that? IMO, a better strategy would be to expand and fortify consciousness and our state of mind to better assimilate and absorb pain and suffering. And there's no reason we can't experience the full range of emotions simultaneously or new ones yet to be experienced.
Hello, anyone ever taken a euphoriant, empathogen or entheogen and been in a state of much, much less mental pain yet feel actually more alive rather than less, and at the same time feel like your range of feeling has actually increased not decreased!? i guess this means its possible to both reduce pain and be more complex at the same time!! why not, the brain seems to be able to do anything its designed to do, it seems more and more the sky is the limit in theory. lets be very motivated, driven and 'diverse' while feeling well at the same time. HIGH-FUNCTIONING well-being seems possible! the technology is comming so might as well have a sensible directive in what to do with it. i dont want a Brave New World either
QUOTE
or new ones yet to be experienced
so if there are states yet to be experienced, how the heck and we call what ever happens to be the current range of states a balance in which removing some from the spectrum would be wrong?
QUOTE
but I think it's wrong unless you define suffering as equivalent to a diminishment of consciousness.
youre going to be displeased with me and sorry if this sounds negative but,
Id rather be in a state of x wellbeing and have the consciousness i have now than be highly expanded and be in a state of x-1% wellbeing and i dont see any purpose to it unless it raises well-being
maybe this is comming from a severe depressive bias (i really dont think it is though because i believe everything reduces to pleasure/pain axis), sorry if it is
besides, i believe its possible to be in a state where consciousness feels the opposite of diminished and yet feeling very well and pain free at the same time. i believe anything is possible, just like software will do anything you code it to do. perhaps someone's response to this will then be "ahh, but does the OS (universe) have limits?" then again, look at what humans have already experienced with the use of wireheading and drugs. Time of the experience or it losing magic is irrelevant because tolerance is merely another biological mechanism and not a 'getting bored with it'
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