Hi Everyone,

I stumbled across this page through some manner of random searching last night. I've skimmed through a lot of posts since then and can see that a lot of you are very well read. Wonderful, maybe I can get some good reccomendations for some recreational reading from all of you.

But now I have a question. I see Meditation has gotten it's own category for Consciousness Expansion.

I am quite the existentialist, and where some well educated and even skeptical folk would say they see an enlightened person meditating in spiritual harmony with the oneness of the universe...

I would say that I see somebody who has reached a hypnagogic state dying cross-legged in a field.

My question is this: Has anyone ever stopped to consider the possibility that meditation is a worthless tool in a quest for greater consciousness?

I'd like to say that sitting alone does not give me any greater sense of oneness. Just a thought. I have not taken the time to formally study what state someone is trying to achieve through meditation, and therefore cannot formally reject it as a means of knowing...

I'm not unwilling to try meditating, just making conversation. That's why we're all here, Right?

Hi Adrian. The original link has expired, but I captured the article, below. Whether meditation brings about a greater sense of "oneness" is debatable, but the practice seems to do something physical to the brain.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...6-2005Jan2.html

Meditation Gives Brain a Charge, Study Finds

By Marc Kaufman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, January 3, 2005; Page A05

Brain research is beginning to produce concrete evidence for something that Buddhist practitioners of meditation have maintained for centuries: Mental discipline and meditative practice can change the workings of the brain and allow people to achieve different levels of awareness.

Those transformed states have traditionally been understood in transcendent terms, as something outside the world of physical measurement and objective evaluation. But over the past few years, researchers at the University of Wisconsin working with Tibetan monks have been able to translate those mental experiences into the scientific language of high-frequency gamma waves and brain synchrony, or coordination. And they have pinpointed the left prefrontal cortex, an area just behind the left forehead, as the place where brain activity associated with meditation is especially intense.

"What we found is that the longtime practitioners showed brain activation on a scale we have never seen before," said Richard Davidson, a neuroscientist at the university's new $10 million W.M. Keck Laboratory for Functional Brain Imaging and Behavior. "Their mental practice is having an effect on the brain in the same way golf or tennis practice will enhance performance." It demonstrates, he said, that the brain is capable of being trained and physically modified in ways few people can imagine.

Scientists used to believe the opposite -- that connections among brain nerve cells were fixed early in life and did not change in adulthood. But that assumption was disproved over the past decade with the help of advances in brain imaging and other techniques, and in its place, scientists have embraced the concept of ongoing brain development and "neuroplasticity."

Davidson says his newest results from the meditation study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in November, take the concept of neuroplasticity a step further by showing that mental training through meditation (and presumably other disciplines) can itself change the inner workings and circuitry of the brain.

The new findings are the result of a long, if unlikely, collaboration between Davidson and Tibet's Dalai Lama, the world's best-known practitioner of Buddhism. The Dalai Lama first invited Davidson to his home in Dharamsala, India, in 1992 after learning about Davidson's innovative research into the neuroscience of emotions. The Tibetans have a centuries-old tradition of intensive meditation and, from the start, the Dalai Lama was interested in having Davidson scientifically explore the workings of his monks' meditating minds. Three years ago, the Dalai Lama spent two days visiting Davidson's lab.

The Dalai Lama ultimately dispatched eight of his most accomplished practitioners to Davidson's lab to have them hooked up for electroencephalograph (EEG) testing and brain scanning. The Buddhist practitioners in the experiment had undergone training in the Tibetan Nyingmapa and Kagyupa traditions of meditation for an estimated 10,000 to 50,000 hours, over time periods of 15 to 40 years. As a control, 10 student volunteers with no previous meditation experience were also tested after one week of training.

The monks and volunteers were fitted with a net of 256 electrical sensors and asked to meditate for short periods. Thinking and other mental activity are known to produce slight, but detectable, bursts of electrical activity as large groupings of neurons send messages to each other, and that's what the sensors picked up. Davidson was especially interested in measuring gamma waves, some of the highest-frequency and most important electrical brain impulses.

Both groups were asked to meditate, specifically on unconditional compassion. Buddhist teaching describes that state, which is at the heart of the Dalai Lama's teaching, as the "unrestricted readiness and availability to help living beings." The researchers chose that focus because it does not require concentrating on particular objects, memories or images, and cultivates instead a transformed state of being.

Davidson said that the results unambiguously showed that meditation activated the trained minds of the monks in significantly different ways from those of the volunteers. Most important, the electrodes picked up much greater activation of fast-moving and unusually powerful gamma waves in the monks, and found that the movement of the waves through the brain was far better organized and coordinated than in the students. The meditation novices showed only a slight increase in gamma wave activity while meditating, but some of the monks produced gamma wave activity more powerful than any previously reported in a healthy person, Davidson said.

The monks who had spent the most years meditating had the highest levels of gamma waves, he added. This "dose response" -- where higher levels of a drug or activity have greater effect than lower levels -- is what researchers look for to assess cause and effect.

In previous studies, mental activities such as focus, memory, learning and consciousness were associated with the kind of enhanced neural coordination found in the monks. The intense gamma waves found in the monks have also been associated with knitting together disparate brain circuits, and so are connected to higher mental activity and heightened awareness, as well.

Davidson's research is consistent with his earlier work that pinpointed the left prefrontal cortex as a brain region associated with happiness and positive thoughts and emotions. Using functional magnetic resonance imagining (fMRI) on the meditating monks, Davidson found that their brain activity -- as measured by the EEG -- was especially high in this area.

Davidson concludes from the research that meditation not only changes the workings of the brain in the short term, but also quite possibly produces permanent changes. That finding, he said, is based on the fact that the monks had considerably more gamma wave activity than the control group even before they started meditating. A researcher at the University of Massachusetts, Jon Kabat-Zinn, came to a similar conclusion several years ago.

Researchers at Harvard and Princeton universities are now testing some of the same monks on different aspects of their meditation practice: their ability to visualize images and control their thinking. Davidson is also planning further research.

"What we found is that the trained mind, or brain, is physically different from the untrained one," he said. In time, "we'll be able to better understand the potential importance of this kind of mental training and increase the likelihood that it will be taken seriously."


These articles add a bit more to what was said in the Washington Post article (above).

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Meditation can boost your gray matter

‘Buddhist Insight’ practitioners build thicker cortical regions

LIVE SCIENCE

November 13, 2005

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Meditation alters brain patterns in ways that are likely permanent, scientists have known. But a new study shows key parts of the brain actually get thicker through the practice.

Brain imaging of regular working folks who meditate regularly revealed increased thickness in cortical regions related to sensory, auditory and visual perception, as well as internal perception — the automatic monitoring of heart rate or breathing, for example.

The study also indicates that regular meditation may slow age-related thinning of the frontal cortex.

"What is most fascinating to me is the suggestion that meditation practice can change anyone's gray matter," said study team member Jeremy Gray, an assistant professor of psychology at Yale. "The study participants were people with jobs and families. They just meditated on average 40 minutes each day, you don't have to be a monk."

The research team was led by Sara Lazar, assistant in psychology at Massachusetts General Hospital. It is detailed in the November issue of the journal NeuroReport.

The study involved a small number of people, just 20. All had extensive training in Buddhist Insight meditation. But the researchers say the results are significant.

Most of the brain regions identified to be changed through meditation were found in the right hemisphere, which is essential for sustaining attention. And attention is the focus of the meditation.

Other forms of yoga and meditation likely have a similar impact on brain structure, the researchers speculate, but each tradition probably has a slightly different pattern of cortical thickening based on the specific mental exercises involved.



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Scans of Monks' Brains Show Meditation Alters Structure, Functioning

SCIENCE JOURNAL

Sharon Begley, November 5, 2004


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All of the Dalai Lama's guests peered intently at the brain scan projected onto screens at either end of the room, but what different guests they were.

On one side sat five neuroscientists, united in their belief that physical processes in the brain can explain all the wonders of the mind, without appeal to anything spiritual or nonphysical.

Facing them sat dozens of Tibetan Buddhist monks in burgundy-and-saffron robes, convinced that one round-faced young man in their midst is the reincarnation of one of the Dalai Lama's late teachers, that another is the reincarnation of a 12th-century monk, and that the entity we call "mind" is not, as neuroscience says, just a manifestation of the brain.

It was not, in other words, your typical science meeting.

But although the Buddhists and scientists who met for five days last month in the Dalai Lama's home in Dharamsala, India, had different views on the little matters of reincarnation and the relationship of mind to brain, they set them aside in the interest of a shared goal. They had come together in the shadows of the Himalayas to discuss one of the hottest topics in brain science: neuroplasticity.

The term refers to the brain's recently discovered ability to change its structure and function, in particular by expanding or strengthening circuits that are used and by shrinking or weakening those that are rarely engaged. In its short history, the science of neuroplasticity has mostly documented brain changes that reflect physical experience and input from the outside world. In pianists who play many arpeggios, for instance, brain regions that control the index finger and middle finger become fused, apparently because when one finger hits a key in one of these fast-tempo movements, the other does so almost simultaneously, fooling the brain into thinking the two fingers are one. As a result of the fused brain regions, the pianist can no longer move those fingers independently of one another.

Lately, however, scientists have begun to wonder whether the brain can change in response to purely internal, mental signals. That's where the Buddhists come in. Their centuries-old tradition of meditation offers a real-life experiment in the power of those will-o'-the-wisps, thoughts, to alter the physical matter of the brain.

"Of all the concepts in modern neuroscience, it is neuroplasticity that has the greatest potential for meaningful interaction with Buddhism," says neuroscientist Richard Davidson of the University of Wisconsin, Madison. The Dalai Lama agreed, and he encouraged monks to donate (temporarily) their brains to science.

The result was the scans that Prof. Davidson projected in Dharamsala. They compared brain activity in volunteers who were novice meditators to that of Buddhist monks who had spent more than 10,000 hours in meditation. The task was to practice "compassion" meditation, generating a feeling of loving kindness toward all beings.

"We tried to generate a mental state in which compassion permeates the whole mind with no other thoughts," says Matthieu Ricard, a Buddhist monk at Shechen Monastery in Katmandu, Nepal, who holds a Ph.D. in genetics.

In a striking difference between novices and monks, the latter showed a dramatic increase in high-frequency brain activity called gamma waves during compassion meditation. Thought to be the signature of neuronal activity that knits together far-flung brain circuits, gamma waves underlie higher mental activity such as consciousness. The novice meditators "showed a slight increase in gamma activity, but most monks showed extremely large increases of a sort that has never been reported before in the neuroscience literature," says Prof. Davidson, suggesting that mental training can bring the brain to a greater level of consciousness.

Using the brain scan called functional magnetic resonance imaging, the scientists pinpointed regions that were active during compassion meditation. In almost every case, the enhanced activity was greater in the monks' brains than the novices'. Activity in the left prefrontal cortex (the seat of positive emotions such as happiness) swamped activity in the right prefrontal (site of negative emotions and anxiety), something never before seen from purely mental activity. A sprawling circuit that switches on at the sight of suffering also showed greater activity in the monks. So did regions responsible for planned movement, as if the monks' brains were itching to go to the aid of those in distress.

"It feels like a total readiness to act, to help," recalled Mr. Ricard.

The study will be published next week in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. "We can't rule out the possibility that there was a pre-existing difference in brain function between monks and novices," says Prof. Davidson, "but the fact that monks with the most hours of meditation showed the greatest brain changes gives us confidence that the changes are actually produced by mental training."

That opens up the tantalizing possibility that the brain, like the rest of the body, can be altered intentionally. Just as aerobics sculpt the muscles, so mental training sculpts the gray matter in ways scientists are only beginning to fathom.

Meditation is a tool of the mind that involves focusing one's consciousness and turning it back on itself instead of focusing on particular objects. It is only a tool; there are many. Sometimes meditation combined with other tools is better than meditation alone. That being said, few would recommend meditation as the sole tool for consciousness expansion. Maybe for a few individuals, meditation alone is all they want and need. However, for the rest of us, it's just a single tool of many. Sometimes it's useful, other times it's not. Some would argue that your skill level and prior experience determines how effective of a tool it can be... like they say, practice makes perfect. But on the other hand, it is not uncommon to read stories about people who have devoted decades of their life to meditation, without any enlightening experiences as a result.

In the end, what rings true of meditation rings true of all other experiences: What we get out of any experience is determined largely by what we take into the experience.

Can you give other examples of mind tools? Would an LSD trip, for instance, be considered one? Assuming it is taken with the serious intent of exploring and expanding the mind?

yes

hmm LSD is a intresting subject buttons, the government explored into its effects and implications deeply in the 60's. At first it was tried as a mind control device but the lack of concentration made it only useful for certain conditioning in MKULTRA next they tried it as a truth syrum which was replaced by barbituates. Finally they administered approximatly 5000 doses to diffrent subjects around the country in a attempt to view its affects. Some of the people who were unwillingly subjected to this were reimburesed by the government but 99% have not. The original use of LSD's was to actually dum down the population, this was because their had been a increase in the middle class and in intelligence, of course this means their would be a lack of grunts to do the day to day work from construction to mcdonalds so the drug introduction had begun..

The use of LSD has a lot of documentation and I would recommend seriously investigating into it before attempting to use it as a hallucogin. Also try thinking about how you are going to document your findings, you would obviously be high so it could be assumed your not going to write things down. I agree that if taken seriously hallucogins can further help us to investiagate our own realities but if it is to be taken seriously you would need to carry out the attempt in a serious and scientific fashion. Also prehaps going straight into LSD is not the most desirable choice, I have heard of a asian drink that acts as a mild hallucogin and is legal rather than breaking the law in attempt to expand your reality.

LSD is not widely available as it once was, for one thing. Secondly, I wasn't thinking about taking it any time soon. I did it in my twenties as a recreational drug. But I stopped cold turkey the day I saw my best buddy (who was in on the trip with me) being chased by a stop sign; to not be seen again for three days.

OnlyNow, thank you for the reply the information was helpful. I think I probably should meditate if it thickens the part of the brain that allows you to sustain attention. I would say my attention span is pretty average. I am afraid that I have read some of the same things about prayer (of which I am extremely skeptical).

http://www.qedcorp.com/pcr/pcr/attentn.html - EEG of priests during prayer

Shawn, I agree with your statement wholeheartedly. I don't mean this thread to be a hardheaded attack on a form of spirituality that has been around for hundreds of years. As a matter of fact the reason I am asking these questions is because of my interest in meditation.

I do however want to create skepticism, meditation is largely a religious practice. Religion is most often a faith based institution. When we start to believe things based on faith alone our rational thinking processes start to break down.

In my thinking self-hypnosis is like playing with fire. Even the strongest will, is not immune to itself. You want to see something? You will, some people get lost in their minds, in beautiful worlds of joy. They are called Catatonic Schizophrenics.

My question was not so much is meditation worthless. I don't think it's worthless, people become extremely calm and relaxed. Relaxation gives you staying power, it makes your body healthier, it allows your mind to wear down slower. People who meditate may live happier, healthier lives; this doesn't mean that meditation contributes to their understanding of reality.

I am just trying to get across that I get a feeling of discomfort when I watch SOME people meditate; like they are sitting, dying complacently. When I see SOME people close thier eyes to pray, I feel like they just see blackness.

I think meditation would be a worthwhile endeavor for me. Not to develop spirituality, but simple focus. Thank you guys for your responses!




-------Topic Break!

LSD is one of the drugs I have always wanted to try but never gotten the chance. I have never come across it in Southern California, but know a lot of people who have in the past. People tell me that you can still get it in some abundance in Northern California.

I am as a general rule very negative on synthetic drugs (not referring to Acid, comes form ergot fungus). I think benzos are crap, however ketamine is the other drug I would like to try (that I have not yet). Someone told me that it has become more of a rarity due to the regulation of Mexican Factories. (BS?)

The most common thing I run across (besides pot which for some reason I don't even count as a drug) is E, which I think is useless (synthetic). Ecstasy and talcum powder (I think some people call it coke) dominate the club scene in California.

Anyone really into that psychonaught/shamanism stuff? What do you guys prefer? Anything cool to look for besides acid? Anyone into any synthetic drugs?

I've been practicing meditation for about six months now, I would say. Not very long at all. But it's made me noticeably calmer (my parents noted this) and happier (my parents and I noted this). I can also say that I've had some lovely experiences while meditating. So from a purely subjective point of view, I'd say it's the Good Shit.

As regards drugs... well, I have psychedelics (specifically psilocybin mushrooms) to thank for awakening my 'spiritual' side. I have since done shrooms a few times, acid three times, and mescalin (in the form of San Pedro) once.

LSD (acid) is the classic psychedelic, but I was not that impressed (except for the first time I took it). I never hallucinated - I never saw things that actually weren't there (such as a street sign chasing my friend, though stranger things have been known to happen). I felt the peculiar oneness whose variants are common to all psychedelics, I think, but I found the general feeling quite clinical, strangely impersonal. During and aftewards I felt slightly freaked out. Not totally freaked out, just slightly uneasy. There were few if any physical hangovers.

By contrast, mushrooms (apart from one dark experience, when I mixed my shrooms, and they were old, too) are a cushy trip. Hard on your digestive system, to be sure, but a lovely trip. Intensely compelling, they made me feel my basic unity with the universe, for ever and ever. Hilarious, too, and full of love. 4-5 hours of incredible experience, though I feel they must be respected and not abused hedonistically.

Mescalin might fall under your category of "psychonaught/shamanism stuff". It's been used by South American Indians for centuries, who worshipped the cactus from which it is derived as a deity (along with psychoactive mushrooms). My single trip (not shaman-guided, but here in good old South Africa) lasted a full 12 hours. I didn't take much (it tastes AWFUL). It was subtle and gentle in the beginning. I was coherent and cogent, fully logical, just much more joyful. The trip peaked after 4-5 hours, when it was thoroughly compelling. Not a cushy trip at all; I had to make good with my deluded thoughts on more than one occasion in order to continue enjoying the experience. The peak was followed by 6 hours of a long, gentle descent that landed me gently back on my feet again, feeling refreshed and not at all freaked out. It was a truly superior trip.

While all these drugs are useful for opening the mind's eye to the 'spiritual dimension', it must be understood that their effects (or, at least, their quasi-enlightening effects) are short-lived. Furthermore, psychedelics do not give an experience of enlightenment, but a poor imitation of it. If you are aiming for enlightenment, psychedelics might help initially, if you've not already had a compellingly 'spiritual' experience, but after that strictly initial phase they are more likely to be a crutch, and then a hindrance, than a help. To refer to the topic of this post, psychedelic medication is certainly no substitute for meditation (though the two may be combined to good effect, I hear). I'd recommend meditation over medication every time.

This topic brings a very strong emotional response from me. It was not until recently in my life, where i opened myself up to psychedelics and other various drugs, that I am now able to say with an improbable certainty that I have achieved a higher level of consciousness and connection with humanity and individuals. This is something I know I could not achieve without the drugs psilocybin, especially, marijuana, and amphetamines to an extent.

I can say this for sure, that I am truly left feeling with a greater understanding of the world.

Please, people, be open-minded. All drugs are not 'bad.' Alcohol is perhaps the most destructive drug. Don't disregard points without considering them for at least a moment, even if they seem to defy reality.

I wish to try LSD in the near future.

Me too. Where do you live?

jk

I have to say that I'm a little jealous. Am I the only one on the forum who has never experienced a real hallucinogen? The closest I've come are the few times I smoked marijuana laced with "something," the time I had a large amount of some really good tequila, and during a course of prescribed Prednisone. I smoked pot in the 70s, and I'm positive the experience had a profound effect on my personallity. I can thank marijuana for my slightly off-center view of the world, my sense of humor and also for my wonderfully open mind. That said, as much as I think hallucinogens could potentially give me more of "that," and in a big way, I frankly wish I had already tried them. At this point in my life, I have no idea--none--where to get them. Even if I knew, I'd have a tough time justifying my usage of illegal drugs when I really don't want my kids going down that path.

Anyway, I have a question for those here who have been there, done that: Is it possible to describe your experience such that others could comprehend even part of it? I'd really love to hear about it. (This might be a time when the "guest" moniker is quite handy.)

It might be boring in comparison, but I could also try to put into words what my adventures with marijuana were like.

Taking hallucinogenics under controlled circumstances would definitely expand your horizons, ON. I don't think that you should be afraid at all. On the contrary, be prepared for the most exciting and Insightful (capital A) journey into your mind. From my past experience I can tell you that the older you are when you take them the more in control you are, the more you'll get out of it, and the less afraid you become. Here is an old thread from this forum that you might find helpful: http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=381 There are more very interesting insights about the subject here at Brain-Meta with some extremely interesting links. I highly recomend you to search them up. Gee! Just talking about it makes me wanna go find me some 'cid right now!

Well, I'd never rule it out, but for me to feel totally safe, it could only happen under near perfect circumstances. Plus, it would have to almost fall into my lap. I'd never go looking, nor could I ever picture myself purchasing and cultivating my own rhizomes. Things seemed so much easier when every high school party I went to included some kind of drug. I didn't have to go looking, and I was naive enough not to worry about consequences. I probably would have gotten into something heavier were it not for a boyfriend I had during my senior year--and through most of my college years. He didn't do drugs, and so I basically stopped. Looking back, it's probably good it happened that way--I may never have made it through. So here I am, a *lot* of years later, lamenting that I missed that window of opportunity.

Haha! Crazy you guys reopened my topic after that long, How did THAT happen?

The reason that nobody can find acid is because the 2 guys that made well, pretty much all of it are in prison:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Leonard_Pickard

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lsd


Ever read through a guide on 'how to make acid?' If it's not totally bogus you'll notice that it's VERY difficult to do it right. Oh ok you understand chemistry, well good luck getting everything together then. Good luck finding Diethylamine. Still, I've met plenty of people on the street that insist it's not that difficult though. (Getting high off dirty bathwater maybe?)

I may have came across acid this week. I'm not sure though! It looks totally bunk. Looks like someone glued together a few small peices of paper. A good friend INSISTED that it was legitimate.

I haven't had time to take them yet. I'll let you guys know how it goes. Actually if I don't reply to this topic with anything about it they were bunk and I don't want to discuss it again.



Upon reconsideration of my message posted earlier:

I've been practicing meditation here and there lately. It makes me really calm, but I still can't imagine that it leads to any higher state of understanding. I read a lot on the internet and it says you should really be mentored. I don't really have time to spare like that, but I hope that some day I do.

I feel like my attention span is actually much better than average. That's not my issue, my issue is consistency. Making something stretch out over a number of months/years. Sometimes I chalk this up to instability in my life.

I just noticed this post--and really had a good laugh. Did both of you see that stop sign running around? You know, this reminds me of the main reason why I'm disinclined to ingest psychedelics. I think they can be quite unpredictable, not always fun, and sometimes dangerous. I guess the bottom line for me is that I truly want to achieve a bit of mind expansion in the hopes of learning and growing from the experience. Perhaps there are other ways in lieu of drugs.

So, back to meditation. I'm really a novice still because while I've been doing it off and on for a couple of years, I've not developed a daily habit. To really experience the benefits of meditation, you have to do it every day. I need to work on that.

Adrian, how funny that we both commented on the same post by Buttons. I had my message window up for a long time, and you posted yours during that time. There are no coincidences! ...Wait a minute, yes there are.

If your planned trip comes to fruition, please let us know how it went.

Anyway, one of the reasons I'd like to hear about actual experiences is because I'm wondering if those things that are learned during that brief period of mind expansion can be taught to others. Does everyone have to do acid, or couldn't just a few talented writers take it and then share their experiences so that we all might benefit?

For those who have taken psychedelics: Are you absolutely certain that you attained something of value, beyond just a fun ride? If so, it would seem that you could somehow convey what you experienced to others who haven't done drugs so that they too might benefit from your enlightenment.

Talking to myself...

Something occurred to me this morning. We all go on "trips" every night when we dream. We see, hear and feel things as if they are really happening. We have no clue that we are dreaming; we generally believe that we are really "there." Hallucinations are also seemingly "real" inasmuch as we REALLY see or hear things that apparentlly aren't there. Now..how is this possible, really? Aren't all sights and sounds and other sensations that we experience reflective of the objective, constant reality "out there"? Apparently not. Otherwise, I'd expect 100% consistency. With that in mind, who's to say that the stop sign chasing CB's friend is any less real than the one I ran through on the way to the gym this morning? If dreams and hallucinations can look just like real life, then the reverse is also true. Real life looks very much like a dream or a hallucination. So how do we know for sure that our every day reality is entirely different from or any more concrete than a dream or a hallucination?

Voila! Welcome to Brain Meta, ON! When we are able to manipulate 'reality' at will, then we will have reached a higher state of consciousness.

Damnit! I typed this HUGE response, then somehow triggered the browser back button. BRILLIANT! Never type anything longer than 100 words into a webform .




Code, I think that's what a lot of people are seeking when they say enlightenment. It's important for me to remember that the higher state of consciousness that you are describing, that gives you some greater control of reality may not be the same as the fabled state of enlightenment that you reach through meditation. (I am not accusing you of saying this.)

The culture that surrounds a lot of meditation is based largely on giving up desires. While it is easy for me to see merit in this, it's distant from the way I currently live, and may not be what I am seeking. Maybe I already meditate in my own, much more sinful form. Who knows?

EXA.

"Then, at death, with no karma to weigh it down, the jiva will float free of all ajiva, free of the human condition, free of all future embodiments. It will rise to the top of the universe to a place or state called Siddhashila, where the jiva, identical with all other pure jivas, will experience its own true nature in eternal stillness, isolation and noninvolvement. It will be totally free. The way to burn up old karma is to withdraw from all involvement in the world as much as possible, and close the channel of the senses and the mind to prevent karmic matter from entering and adhering to the jiva. Such kind of an eternal liberation from the unbinding of the Jiva and the Pudgala (ajiva), such that no new reincarnation occurs into the material world, is called as Moksha. Ignorance (ajñana) is the cause of binding, and true knowledge (kevala jñana) is the cause of liberation."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism







ON, I read a lot of Huxley when I was younger, but felt like I never really understood until I had tried a psychadelic (mushrooms). Besides, why would you want to trade the experience for someone elses written account of the experience?



I cannot say that I have genuinely gained anything. That's the issue, there is nobody that can rate your understanding of reality. Also each person's experience of a drug is pretty varied, especially hallucinogens.



I like this thought. Let's cite Kant (Why? Cause I like his work damnit).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noumenon

I've done this on more than one occasion and in response, have formed the habit of pressing Ctrl-A (to select all text typed out), and then Ctrl-C (to copy all text to clipboard), before pressing any submit buttons or taking any other actions.

One time I did Mushrooms and totally lost my "sens of time" it's like I popped out of nowhere and didN't know where we were and WHEN we were... very crazy feeling I also saw big psychedelic designs coming off of the street wich was really awesome. LSD in contrast isn't frightening, hallucinogenic or very intense in my opinion. It's just a completely-other-way-of-perception and it's really profound... LSD really opened my philosophical mind and I actually feel my consciousness expanded since I did it. I really liked it and will probably try it again some day. I really recommend trying LSD it's not as hardcore as some ppl may think and really worth trying atleast once.

Anyone ever wondered about Candy-Flipping (mixing MDMA with LSD) or FlowerFlipping (mixing MDMA with Psilocybe Mushrooms)? I have read that it was synergistic and it would induce extremely psychedelic/hallucinogenic trips while making it easier to get "God-Modes" or "floathing with the universe, being everything" trips while the MDMA's good feeling would reduce chances of freaking out and badtrips.

"For those who have taken psychedelics: Are you absolutely certain that you attained something of value, beyond just a fun ride? If so, it would seem that you could somehow convey what you experienced to others who haven't done drugs so that they too might benefit from your enlightenment."

I took LSD in my youth and the first time I got nothing more than a wierd ripple effect, like a pebble thrown into the pond of my vision. I had a good time, making jokes and generally "leading" the trip.

The second time it was a completely different experience, much more intense with colours/shades cycling in some way giving movement to everything, undulating patterns over my vision and trails on all movement. This got me extremely interested in the experience from a personal point of view as I'd had a natural "trip" when i was younger.

What you experience is a heightening of senses and emotions due to the filters being removed from your mind that you have built up over time. The brain is more capable of deep thought although it is difficult to steer the thoughts and many times you can become stuck in "thought loops".

Mushrooms have a much more earthy and natural feel, anddespite what some on this board say, it is similar to LSD. Trails, movement, recursive thoughts etc. The difference is its a lot shorter and easier to handle than LSD, and its more likely that stomach cramps can occur because the mushrooms may be feeding from contaminated ground (other fungi).

DMT I have only had once, i think, and I never got past the threshold for a psychedilic experience. My friend was sure that it was peyote, but it was smokeable and I relate it to what I hear about DMT. What I did feel was very "springy" and strange, total head trip. I felt as though I was sinking into my sofa as i took comfort in the TV. The program on TV was saying "They'll find you, dont worry, they'll come rescue you soon" etc. Very freaky, but not psychedelic at all (v. low dose probably).

LSD and mushrooms have a strange feeling of being rewired or spring cleaned. Often on LSD you perceive an undercurrent of information throughout everything, conversations have a whole range of meanings and its difficult not to become stuck on an emotional meaning. Paranoia is common, but as long as your with friends its easy to get out of that mindset. I often spend the last hours of my trips watching some TV, and often it feels like you can see the history behind the cliches in the characters lines, or you can see that they're acting. Body language becomes obvious, the stories seem predictable, its sort of like a feeling of permanent deja vu.

Its difficult to express the experience as you'll discover if you ever take any of these substances. Bad trips are definately something that may happen but as long as you remember that its a drug and it WILL wear off, you will be fine.

Take me for instance: whilst still at school i got involved with drugs. I was given an essay for chatting and a friend wrote a parody essay for me. I expected it to go straight in the bin because teachers love to do that, and so I handed it in and forgot about it. One week later it was a lovely sunny day, and in the wisdom of youth, decided to take a little LSD in my lunch. It was a beautiful day and I felt like a hippy, watching wave shaped paths of birds and butterflys in the air. I got back to school and heard my name come over the tanoy system, I had to goto the deputy heads office.

Now I tried to keep positive as I'd never been in much trouble and everytime I'd been to the office, it was for something mundane like a form needed signing. This time it wasnt...

I was stood in the head of years on very strong LSD having to explain why I'd handed in an essay all about being on benefits sitting on my ass watching the walls breath whilst eating acid the rest of my life. Needless to say I was sweating and had to navigate this situation of Hell I found myself in. All I wanted to do was run, run away from the school til I'd come down from the LSD. It was all my own fault of course, and so I stayed throughout.

Since I got past this situation I have a LOT less fear of LSD. I know how powerful the negative and positive emotions can be.

I have to say this happened over 12 years ago (I'm 27 now), and I still like to use a trippy substance every now and then. Last trip I had, I watched people coming home from a Friday at work. I saw people display distinctly animal behaviour, and after speaking to my girlfriend about symbolism and behaviour, I got a flash of inspiration/enlightenment which has got me off my MMORPG playing ass (warcraft) and into researching and writing a book.

I have since learned a lot more about different religions, enlightenment, the brain, history of mathematics, symbols and behavior in my research for my book. I'm also about to relinquish my atheist beliefs and choose a new spiritual path, likely Buddhism. I have experienced the oneness of the Universe through experiences such as seeing my own reflection in my daughters eyes, birth, death, and the unity that you can feel on LSD.

I am now going to try the natural path to enlightenment, as I recognise the dangers of shortcuts. Hopefully this will help people make a choice.

Everyone should try LSD at least once. I'd recommend everyone at the age of 21 should be given it in a coming of age ritual.

Meditation can help to LEARN to focus and concentrate, simply by spending a few minutes in quiet and stillness.
Apparently, what it does (like prayer) to the brain is that it gives that "feeling" of loosing spatial awareness; a nice high.

Personally, I consider it really boring, get my kicks elsewhere and know that I will get loads of peace and quiet when I´m dead.

Having had experienced intense ego-dissolution and consciousness expansion with the aid of LSD and other such entheogens countless times, I have to say it is a very powerful tool in building an understanding of the conditioned mind and our attachment to it. This understanding is useful for the transcendence of attachment to mind in our everyday experience, as we have been to "that place" - it is encoded into our being. The more we go to that place of awareness, the more it becomes integrated into our everyday conscious experience. We can access this place through awareness... through meditation, music, dance, ritual, etc. Anything that allows our creativity to flow through and beyond our attachment to that limiting thought process.

One of my most intense experiences on LSD was when a giant mandala appeared directly in front of my vision, encompassing everything that I saw. Every piece of me, or my ego, became attached to this rotating mandala. This mandala is what I now interpret to be "sacred geometry", a higher dimensional symbolic manifestation/creation of my higher self which allowed me to enter divine transcendence into an expanded state of multidimensional awareness. It was huge and real, each one of my senses became attached to it and I got sucked into the center. It was like a vortex and I entered the center. As I flowed through what felt like a wormhole, time slowed down and I experienced the vibration of matter. I became that space in between seconds, and the space grew and expanded. I entered timeless awareness. I zoomed into the moment, there are no words which can convey these non-conceptual worlds. I had been hours in this timeless place. I awoke in the fetal position, consciousness expanded and vibrating. I felt as though I was 4 feet out of my body in all directions. It was as though the astral and physical merged and I was in between.

"Personally, I consider it really boring, get my kicks elsewhere and know that I will get loads of peace and quiet when I�m dead."

AB: Are you sure you will RIP?
Personally, I do not want to RIP. I prefer to get all energy I will need to get on with living life to the full.

Meditation is only boring from a boring perspective

The great part about meditation is that removes boredom from my life. The only way to get over it is to go face to face with it... in meditation!

Meditation should never be approached as a means to escape experience.
Lifes perceptions are basic to belief. Experience is guided by the choice we make to see what is real.
Boring or not boring are basic to interpretations of reality.
Meditation on life does not necessarily change how we feel but helps us to gain insight to feelings so that we are not so attached to them.
Then there can be no judgment or influence in emotional boundaries.
Happiness and sadness become equal in the essence of what they are as conditioned responses and joy replaces emotional conditioning.

Observing is a lot more productive than escaping.

If it is boredom that is felt during meditation, then focus on the boredom until it starts crumbling into blissful awareness. The more attached to boredom, the longer it takes to dissolve.

With practice, it will become known that boredom is just an impermanent feeling. Realizing and understanding this impermanence is what helps to make boredom more impermanent!

I think when one experiences boredom, they are really experiencing their dependence on society (and its values). I am now past boredom in meditation, and more importantly, boredom in life. For me, the purpose of meditation is to experience, and in doing so, I am never bored.

"I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, to discover that I had not lived. I did not wish to live what was not life, living is so dear; nor did I wish to practice resignation, unless it was quite necessary."