Dissecting God
"Philosopher Daniel Dennett argues that America is drowning in religion -- and that faith needs to be analyzed with the tools of science."
Salon.com interview: http://www.salon.com/books/int/2006/02/08/dennett/index.html
I found myself unable to disagree with anything Dennett says in this interview.
Full Version: Interview: Daniel Dennett's New Book
I can't wait to get my hands on this book. Dennett is "da bomb".
It's funny, because Dennett, along with a number of other memetics proponents, have distances themselves in recent years from a hardcore defense of memetics as a legitimate theory for information transfer. Yet the above passage is a perfect description of a "memeoid". I wonder if Dennett's strategy will be to ditch the terminology whle keeping the framework...
QUOTE
Tell us the story from your new book about the ant and the blade of grass.
Suppose you go out in the meadow and you see this ant climbing up a blade of grass and if it falls it climbs again. It's devoting a tremendous amount of energy and persistence to climbing up this blade of grass. What's in it for the ant? Nothing. It's not looking for a mate or showing off or looking for food. Its brain has been invaded by a tiny parasitic worm, a lancet fluke, which has to get into the belly of a sheep or a cow in order to continue its life cycle. It has commandeered the brain of this ant and it's driving it up the blade of grass like an all-terrain vehicle. That's how this tiny lancet fluke does its evolutionary work.
Is religion, then, like a lancet fluke?
The question is, Does anything like that happen to us? The answer is, Well, yes. Not with actual brain worms but with ideas. An idea takes over our brain and gets that person to devote his life to the furtherance of that idea, even at the cost of their own genetics. People forgo having kids, risk their lives, devote their whole lives to the furtherance of an idea, rather than doing what every other species on the planet does -- make more children and grandchildren.
The capacity of human beings to devote their energy, time, safety and health to the stewardship of an idea is itself a biological phenomenon. That's what distinguishes us from all the other species. We're the only species that can set aside our genetic imperatives and say, "That's not that important, I've got more important things in mind." That uniquely human perspective, unknown by any other species, is a gift of cultural selection.
Suppose you go out in the meadow and you see this ant climbing up a blade of grass and if it falls it climbs again. It's devoting a tremendous amount of energy and persistence to climbing up this blade of grass. What's in it for the ant? Nothing. It's not looking for a mate or showing off or looking for food. Its brain has been invaded by a tiny parasitic worm, a lancet fluke, which has to get into the belly of a sheep or a cow in order to continue its life cycle. It has commandeered the brain of this ant and it's driving it up the blade of grass like an all-terrain vehicle. That's how this tiny lancet fluke does its evolutionary work.
Is religion, then, like a lancet fluke?
The question is, Does anything like that happen to us? The answer is, Well, yes. Not with actual brain worms but with ideas. An idea takes over our brain and gets that person to devote his life to the furtherance of that idea, even at the cost of their own genetics. People forgo having kids, risk their lives, devote their whole lives to the furtherance of an idea, rather than doing what every other species on the planet does -- make more children and grandchildren.
The capacity of human beings to devote their energy, time, safety and health to the stewardship of an idea is itself a biological phenomenon. That's what distinguishes us from all the other species. We're the only species that can set aside our genetic imperatives and say, "That's not that important, I've got more important things in mind." That uniquely human perspective, unknown by any other species, is a gift of cultural selection.
It's funny, because Dennett, along with a number of other memetics proponents, have distances themselves in recent years from a hardcore defense of memetics as a legitimate theory for information transfer. Yet the above passage is a perfect description of a "memeoid". I wonder if Dennett's strategy will be to ditch the terminology whle keeping the framework...
QUOTE
Memeoid: A neologism for people who have been taken over by a meme to the extent that that their own survival becomes inconsequential. Examples include kamikazes, suicide bombers and cult members who commit mass suicide.
QUOTE(Übermensch @ May 08, 10:21 PM) 
I can't wait to get my hands on this book. Dennett is "da bomb".
QUOTE
Tell us the story from your new book about the ant and the blade of grass.
Suppose you go out in the meadow and you see this ant climbing up a blade of grass and if it falls it climbs again. It's devoting a tremendous amount of energy and persistence to climbing up this blade of grass. What's in it for the ant? Nothing. It's not looking for a mate or showing off or looking for food. Its brain has been invaded by a tiny parasitic worm, a lancet fluke, which has to get into the belly of a sheep or a cow in order to continue its life cycle. It has commandeered the brain of this ant and it's driving it up the blade of grass like an all-terrain vehicle. That's how this tiny lancet fluke does its evolutionary work.
Is religion, then, like a lancet fluke?
The question is, Does anything like that happen to us? The answer is, Well, yes. Not with actual brain worms but with ideas. An idea takes over our brain and gets that person to devote his life to the furtherance of that idea, even at the cost of their own genetics. People forgo having kids, risk their lives, devote their whole lives to the furtherance of an idea, rather than doing what every other species on the planet does -- make more children and grandchildren.
The capacity of human beings to devote their energy, time, safety and health to the stewardship of an idea is itself a biological phenomenon. That's what distinguishes us from all the other species. We're the only species that can set aside our genetic imperatives and say, "That's not that important, I've got more important things in mind." That uniquely human perspective, unknown by any other species, is a gift of cultural selection.
Suppose you go out in the meadow and you see this ant climbing up a blade of grass and if it falls it climbs again. It's devoting a tremendous amount of energy and persistence to climbing up this blade of grass. What's in it for the ant? Nothing. It's not looking for a mate or showing off or looking for food. Its brain has been invaded by a tiny parasitic worm, a lancet fluke, which has to get into the belly of a sheep or a cow in order to continue its life cycle. It has commandeered the brain of this ant and it's driving it up the blade of grass like an all-terrain vehicle. That's how this tiny lancet fluke does its evolutionary work.
Is religion, then, like a lancet fluke?
The question is, Does anything like that happen to us? The answer is, Well, yes. Not with actual brain worms but with ideas. An idea takes over our brain and gets that person to devote his life to the furtherance of that idea, even at the cost of their own genetics. People forgo having kids, risk their lives, devote their whole lives to the furtherance of an idea, rather than doing what every other species on the planet does -- make more children and grandchildren.
The capacity of human beings to devote their energy, time, safety and health to the stewardship of an idea is itself a biological phenomenon. That's what distinguishes us from all the other species. We're the only species that can set aside our genetic imperatives and say, "That's not that important, I've got more important things in mind." That uniquely human perspective, unknown by any other species, is a gift of cultural selection.
It's funny, because Dennett, along with a number of other memetics proponents, have distances themselves in recent years from a hardcore defense of memetics as a legitimate theory for information transfer. Yet the above passage is a perfect description of a "memeoid". I wonder if Dennett's strategy will be to ditch the terminology whle keeping the framework...
QUOTE
Memeoid: A neologism for people who have been taken over by a meme to the extent that that their own survival becomes inconsequential. Examples include kamikazes, suicide bombers and cult members who commit mass suicide.
Awesome article and interesting response Superman! Will give a detailed response ASAP
Rick:
I am surprised that this thread has not flown. Let me see if I can help it take off by introducing a new way of symbolizing the god-concept. Thanks to you, I took the time to do some research on the mathematical symbol, Ø. Does this have a name?
GØD
For those who may be wondering why as a student of theology--and, years ago, I did two years of graduate theological study at Boston unniversity--in my signature, I write the divine name in a special way.
In my signature, instead of using the plain O as the central letter in the word GOD, I use Ø. Here is why: For some time now, like Orthodox Jews, who write it G-d, I have wanted a symbol that expresses how I feel. It came to my mind that Divine Mind is connected with mathematics, as well as with literature. For some time, now, I have had a vague idea that Ø is a mathematical symbol. But I did not, consciously know what it meant.
Just recently, to check out my vague idea (revelation?) I googled on "mathematical symbols" and up came the following marvellous information, thank GØD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_mathematical_symbols
I discovered that Ø is used as part of the set theory of mathematics. It refers specifically to the set with no elements, that is, a null set. Imagine. Can there be such a thing?
Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set
In the word, which I concocted, the G, in GØD, stands for the highest good in all that is, including that which appears to be evil.
The Ø, in GØD, is, as noted, a mathematical symbol. It stands for the no thing--not to be confused with nothing--and the everything, from which all things, mysteriously, emanate in a rational, scientific and orderly fashion.
The D stands the artistically beautiful design and purpose of all that is.
This fits in well with what most theologians--and I include myself--past and present, mean when they use the Latin phrase creatio ex nihilo--that is, the creation of things came out of no thing, fifteen billion years ago, at the BIG Bang.
Furthermore, it is possible for us to imagine that, right at this very moment, our cosmos is expanding into the no thing--in others words, GØD, as Spirit. Therefore, GØD, IMHO, is the no thing from which all things came and come. As Spirit, GØD, interpenetrates all things, and is the no thing into which all things expand.
I wonder if atheists have a name for this no thing, which was there before the BIG Bang. And what about the no thing beyond the currently-expanding universe. Perhaps the god of atheism is called the no thing. Sounds okay to me, as long as it helps us all be good, loving and moral people--which I feel is the bottom line of all sound and healthy religions.
GØD AS PERSONAL BEING
I have been asked, "Do you believe that GØD is personal, in anyway shape or form?" Yes, I do. But this does not mean that, for me, GØD is a personal and objective being, who looks like you and me.
I like to believe that GØD is personal, in and through you and me, as persons. IMHO, we are, or can be, if we so choose, children--that is, sons and daughters--of GØD. This is another way of saying: We, as human beings, constitute that part of GØD we recognise as consciousness. As such, by the grace of GØD, we have at our disposal an enormous source of unconscious knowledge and power, which, if accessed lovingly and fortified by the attitude of Love--the highest good--could make life on earth a literal garden of Eden. Interestingly, in Aramaic, the common language of Jesus' day, praying meant connecting with, or tuning into, the power of GØD, not pleading with a reluctant God. It is our resistance to the unconscious power of GØD which is the main cause of our failure to get the answers we need. Most prayers of petition get the silent-treatment because of our resistance the root cause of which is our having an arrogant ego.
If you will take the time to look for it, this is the basic teaching of the Gospels, as well as of the writings of Paul. Take note: In John 17, where Jesus tunes in to GØD and affirms his oneness with GØD, he includes all of us in the process. IMHO, "That all may be one" with GØD, means ALL!!!! Also, take a look at John 10:34.
===============================000000000000000000=============================
Summary: The words, gods, god, and God carry so much baggage that, in my humble opinion, perhaps the time has come for us to use a new and special symbol in the form of an anagram: GØD. May I suggest that
1. the G stands for the highest good, agape-love. Agape-love relates to eros (sensual or physical love) and to philia (love of friend for friend) but it is not dependent on them. The Bible says, "GØD is Love". Originating in the human will, agape-love is justice and truth in action.
2. The Ø, is a mathematical symbol, not unlike zero. It refers to a set without elements, relating to set theory. This links the GØD concept with mathematics, order and the sciences. GØD is the no thing--not to be confused with nothing.
3. D stands for the artistic design of things. This links GØD with the arts and the search for that which is truly beautiful.
4. GØD is not a super person-like being, separate and apart from all that is, and looking for us to bow and scrape as subjects before a tyrant. But, rather, GØD is ALL being, total, universal and all-encompassing--physically, mentally and spiritually. GØD is all the knowledge, wisdom and power available, like an all powerfull and infallible computer, just waiting to be used.
=========================00000000000000===========================
I am surprised that this thread has not flown. Let me see if I can help it take off by introducing a new way of symbolizing the god-concept. Thanks to you, I took the time to do some research on the mathematical symbol, Ø. Does this have a name?
GØD
For those who may be wondering why as a student of theology--and, years ago, I did two years of graduate theological study at Boston unniversity--in my signature, I write the divine name in a special way.
In my signature, instead of using the plain O as the central letter in the word GOD, I use Ø. Here is why: For some time now, like Orthodox Jews, who write it G-d, I have wanted a symbol that expresses how I feel. It came to my mind that Divine Mind is connected with mathematics, as well as with literature. For some time, now, I have had a vague idea that Ø is a mathematical symbol. But I did not, consciously know what it meant.
Just recently, to check out my vague idea (revelation?) I googled on "mathematical symbols" and up came the following marvellous information, thank GØD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_mathematical_symbols
I discovered that Ø is used as part of the set theory of mathematics. It refers specifically to the set with no elements, that is, a null set. Imagine. Can there be such a thing?
Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set
In the word, which I concocted, the G, in GØD, stands for the highest good in all that is, including that which appears to be evil.
The Ø, in GØD, is, as noted, a mathematical symbol. It stands for the no thing--not to be confused with nothing--and the everything, from which all things, mysteriously, emanate in a rational, scientific and orderly fashion.
The D stands the artistically beautiful design and purpose of all that is.
This fits in well with what most theologians--and I include myself--past and present, mean when they use the Latin phrase creatio ex nihilo--that is, the creation of things came out of no thing, fifteen billion years ago, at the BIG Bang.
Furthermore, it is possible for us to imagine that, right at this very moment, our cosmos is expanding into the no thing--in others words, GØD, as Spirit. Therefore, GØD, IMHO, is the no thing from which all things came and come. As Spirit, GØD, interpenetrates all things, and is the no thing into which all things expand.
I wonder if atheists have a name for this no thing, which was there before the BIG Bang. And what about the no thing beyond the currently-expanding universe. Perhaps the god of atheism is called the no thing. Sounds okay to me, as long as it helps us all be good, loving and moral people--which I feel is the bottom line of all sound and healthy religions.
GØD AS PERSONAL BEING
I have been asked, "Do you believe that GØD is personal, in anyway shape or form?" Yes, I do. But this does not mean that, for me, GØD is a personal and objective being, who looks like you and me.
I like to believe that GØD is personal, in and through you and me, as persons. IMHO, we are, or can be, if we so choose, children--that is, sons and daughters--of GØD. This is another way of saying: We, as human beings, constitute that part of GØD we recognise as consciousness. As such, by the grace of GØD, we have at our disposal an enormous source of unconscious knowledge and power, which, if accessed lovingly and fortified by the attitude of Love--the highest good--could make life on earth a literal garden of Eden. Interestingly, in Aramaic, the common language of Jesus' day, praying meant connecting with, or tuning into, the power of GØD, not pleading with a reluctant God. It is our resistance to the unconscious power of GØD which is the main cause of our failure to get the answers we need. Most prayers of petition get the silent-treatment because of our resistance the root cause of which is our having an arrogant ego.
If you will take the time to look for it, this is the basic teaching of the Gospels, as well as of the writings of Paul. Take note: In John 17, where Jesus tunes in to GØD and affirms his oneness with GØD, he includes all of us in the process. IMHO, "That all may be one" with GØD, means ALL!!!! Also, take a look at John 10:34.
===============================000000000000000000=============================
Summary: The words, gods, god, and God carry so much baggage that, in my humble opinion, perhaps the time has come for us to use a new and special symbol in the form of an anagram: GØD. May I suggest that
1. the G stands for the highest good, agape-love. Agape-love relates to eros (sensual or physical love) and to philia (love of friend for friend) but it is not dependent on them. The Bible says, "GØD is Love". Originating in the human will, agape-love is justice and truth in action.
2. The Ø, is a mathematical symbol, not unlike zero. It refers to a set without elements, relating to set theory. This links the GØD concept with mathematics, order and the sciences. GØD is the no thing--not to be confused with nothing.
3. D stands for the artistic design of things. This links GØD with the arts and the search for that which is truly beautiful.
4. GØD is not a super person-like being, separate and apart from all that is, and looking for us to bow and scrape as subjects before a tyrant. But, rather, GØD is ALL being, total, universal and all-encompassing--physically, mentally and spiritually. GØD is all the knowledge, wisdom and power available, like an all powerfull and infallible computer, just waiting to be used.
=========================00000000000000===========================
If GØD should cease to exist tomorrow, how would we know it?
You would only know that God had ceased to exist when God had directed a new set of people to write down his words and recreate Him.
QUOTE(rhymer @ Jun 05, 02:13 PM)
You would only know that God had ceased to exist when God had directed a new set of people to write down his words and recreate Him.
Heh that has several levels to it Rymer and its all nicely sumed together.
As far as religion is concerned, we need to take a look at this in a diffrent perspective. Think about how many religions there are.. now think about how many say they are the only ones who are "right", now what is it that makes one religion more right than the other, besides personal opinion?
Many will have realised that I have concluded that man created the Gods, generally to meet apparent needs.
Obviously, I realise that I may be wrong, and for that reason alone, I do not want others to assume the same conclusion, unless their own experience and reflections dictate otherwise.
I have no disrespect whatever for those who 'Believe' and proclaim their Faith, as long as I am allowed to express my own opinion, and as long as they do not force God down my throat (this will be tricky for those whose Faith dictates that they conscript more Followers).
May I rot in the imaginary Hell that frightens so many people, if I am wrong.
For me, acceptance of my own belief led to an awe-inspiring realisation of my personal responsibilty to Society and, at the same time, relief that no Devil was going to get me!
No sins - just unfair behaviour toward other citizens and animals and the environment. Forever on my conscience.
No forgiveness, unless citizens offered it (and what about Nature?).
Obviously, I realise that I may be wrong, and for that reason alone, I do not want others to assume the same conclusion, unless their own experience and reflections dictate otherwise.
I have no disrespect whatever for those who 'Believe' and proclaim their Faith, as long as I am allowed to express my own opinion, and as long as they do not force God down my throat (this will be tricky for those whose Faith dictates that they conscript more Followers).
May I rot in the imaginary Hell that frightens so many people, if I am wrong.
For me, acceptance of my own belief led to an awe-inspiring realisation of my personal responsibilty to Society and, at the same time, relief that no Devil was going to get me!
No sins - just unfair behaviour toward other citizens and animals and the environment. Forever on my conscience.
No forgiveness, unless citizens offered it (and what about Nature?).
I agree Rhymer, I had come to the same conclusion a fair while ago, quite simply I found that we seemed to be divine and mortal, divine in the sense we created gods and mortal in the sense that they created us and thus we are our own creators, our own gods..
Scientists are good at dissecting things, categorizing and classifying things, splitting and dividing things. Can they discover by this method the organic unity of life, the ultimate principle of life, the Truth, God ?
Buddha said, "The moment you are absolutely empty and aware, all is found."
Yet, in the West we have mostly lived through rational, analytical or logical knowledge, and have lost the inner dimension, the contact with our own innermost being.
We have been trying to understand life rationally, logically, and to discover or understand even God in a similar manner.
Has it ever occurred to us that the path to God is not through the head, but through the heart ?
That God is Love. LOVE is THE LAW. The jewel in the lotus... The Spirit, the divine presence, dwells in the heart.
Buddha said, "The moment you are absolutely empty and aware, all is found."
Yet, in the West we have mostly lived through rational, analytical or logical knowledge, and have lost the inner dimension, the contact with our own innermost being.
We have been trying to understand life rationally, logically, and to discover or understand even God in a similar manner.
Has it ever occurred to us that the path to God is not through the head, but through the heart ?
That God is Love. LOVE is THE LAW. The jewel in the lotus... The Spirit, the divine presence, dwells in the heart.
QUOTE(Rick @ Jun 05, 11:54 AM)
If GØD should cease to exist tomorrow, how would we know it?
But seriously, IMO, GØD is not a being who is subject to existence. GØD is beyond all categories.
"Behold with the eyes of the heart, listen with the ears of the heart, live in the wisdom of the heart ...
The luminous path of the Heart is the path of Sacred service, of communion, and of synthesis.
Each consummation, each union, each great Cosmic unification, is achieved through the flame of the heart.
Verily, the foundation of the great steps are laid only through the heart.
The arcs of consciousness are fused by the flame of the heart.
Creation is impregnated with the sacred fire of the heart.
The quality of the magnet is inherent in the heart.
Heart links all manifestations." Agni Yoga
The luminous path of the Heart is the path of Sacred service, of communion, and of synthesis.
Each consummation, each union, each great Cosmic unification, is achieved through the flame of the heart.
Verily, the foundation of the great steps are laid only through the heart.
The arcs of consciousness are fused by the flame of the heart.
Creation is impregnated with the sacred fire of the heart.
The quality of the magnet is inherent in the heart.
Heart links all manifestations." Agni Yoga
Hello guest,
I am just a simple chap who thought the heart was a pump.
I did learn a while back from joesus that there are two heart types!
The other one is buried somewhere inside our bodies and has never been offered up for view on a platter.
I presume you are using other common words in a similar manner.
Since I cannot identify with this usage I cannot gain any information from your post!
Will you, therefore, be kind enough to define each of the following lines (used in your text in sequence) for my benefit?
the heart
the eyes of the heart
ears of the heart
wisdom of the heart
The luminous path of the Heart
path of Sacred service
communion
synthesis
consummation
union
great Cosmic unification
the flame of the heart
the foundation of the great steps
The arcs of consciousness
Creation is impregnated
the sacred fire of the heart
the magnet
manifestations
I am just a simple chap who thought the heart was a pump.
I did learn a while back from joesus that there are two heart types!
The other one is buried somewhere inside our bodies and has never been offered up for view on a platter.
I presume you are using other common words in a similar manner.
Since I cannot identify with this usage I cannot gain any information from your post!
Will you, therefore, be kind enough to define each of the following lines (used in your text in sequence) for my benefit?
the heart
the eyes of the heart
ears of the heart
wisdom of the heart
The luminous path of the Heart
path of Sacred service
communion
synthesis
consummation
union
great Cosmic unification
the flame of the heart
the foundation of the great steps
The arcs of consciousness
Creation is impregnated
the sacred fire of the heart
the magnet
manifestations
QUOTE
'rhymer' post='65700' date='Jun 06, 12:19 PM' I am just a simple chap who thought the heart was a pump....
Sometime ago, I remember a writer being interviewd over the CBC about a book he had written on the history of medicine. He pointed out that the ancients were not aware of the importance of what we call the lungs. Because lungs collapse at death they appeared to the ancients just to be a veil over the heart. They actually believed that when they breathed the air went into the heart, not the lungs.
No wonder the ancients thought of the heart the central organ, of more importance than the brains. When the ancient Egyptians embalmed the body they simply discarded the brains as disposable waste. But they went to great length to preserve the heart, which they thought of as the seat of the human soul, or spirit.
BTW, even the great Aristotle thought that the brain was an organ used by the body simply to lubricate the nose and other bodily functions. Dare I say that many modern human beings seem to have the same low regard for their brains
There was a great philosopher who came to Buddha and said, "I have come to challenge you. I want to know what is your definition of truth."
Buddha asked him, "Have you come to know the truth by discussing it? Do you really want to know the truth, or just talk about it?"
The philosopher had never been faced with such a question. He said, "I really want to know the truth."
Then Buddha said, "Discussion is not going to help. I suggest one thing: for two years you have to remain silent -- no questions, no speaking, just relax so totally that even your thoughts disappear.
And when two years are over, you can ask your questions again."
And the philosopher went into silence...He forgot even to count the days. When two years had passed, Buddha had to remind him, "Do you have any question?"
The philosopher had tears of joy in his eyes, and he said, "All my questions have been answered...I have found the greatest treasure within myself."
Rhymer,
If You really want to know, then go on an inner journey...
Buddha asked him, "Have you come to know the truth by discussing it? Do you really want to know the truth, or just talk about it?"
The philosopher had never been faced with such a question. He said, "I really want to know the truth."
Then Buddha said, "Discussion is not going to help. I suggest one thing: for two years you have to remain silent -- no questions, no speaking, just relax so totally that even your thoughts disappear.
And when two years are over, you can ask your questions again."
And the philosopher went into silence...He forgot even to count the days. When two years had passed, Buddha had to remind him, "Do you have any question?"
The philosopher had tears of joy in his eyes, and he said, "All my questions have been answered...I have found the greatest treasure within myself."
Rhymer,
If You really want to know, then go on an inner journey...
QUOTE(Guest @ Jun 07, 04:11 AM)
Rhymer,
If You really want to know, then go on an inner journey...
Hi Guest,
I must at first apologise to you for effectively questioning your beliefs.
I'm afraid I sidestepped my own principle of believing that we all have our own right to accept whatever we end up believing in.
It was your confusing statements which seem more mythical than explanatory which caused me to write my post!!
I have indeed spent 40 or more years replacing false thoughts with more realistic explanations for the Great Unknowns.
I have said myself that it is only possible for a person to achieve their own insight; and nearly impossible to teach someone else.
It is of course a cop-out, just as was that of Buddha, because there are no answers to the questions.
The Big Trick is realising what is wrong with the questions which are asked, and to realise what is needed by each individual.
Best regards.
QUOTE(Guest @ Jun 06, 02:53 AM)
Scientists are good at dissecting things, categorizing and classifying things, splitting and dividing things. Can they discover by this method the organic unity of life, the ultimate principle of life, the Truth, God ?
I think you are mistaking present scientists with those in the 19th century. the taxonomical approach is a very small part of modern science, although recording data is a priority (evidence, you see).
QUOTE(Guest @ Jun 06, 02:53 AM)
Buddha said, "The moment you are absolutely empty and aware, all is found."
how did he know this? it could be true but the idea that it IS true..... i suppose the blind leading the blind could have new connotations. blind means less aware, so nearer to knowing all......... evidence please, and not miracles.
"be in no fear of nothing (no thing) for there is plenty of this when you are dead."
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Jun 07, 02:40 AM)
QUOTE
'rhymer' post='65700' date='Jun 06, 12:19 PM' I am just a simple chap who thought the heart was a pump....
Sometime ago, I remember a writer being interviewd over the CBC about a book he had written on the history of medicine. He pointed out that the ancients were not aware of the importance of what we call the lungs. Because lungs collapse at death they appeared to the ancients just to be a veil over the heart. They actually believed that when they breathed the air went into the heart, not the lungs.
No wonder the ancients thought of the heart the central organ, of more importance than the brains. When the ancient Egyptians embalmed the body they simply discarded the brains as disposable waste. But they went to great length to preserve the heart, which they thought of as the seat of the human soul, or spirit.
BTW, even the great Aristotle thought that the brain was an organ used by the body simply to lubricate the nose and other bodily functions. Dare I say that many modern human beings seem to have the same low regard for their brains
beware teleological statements. we know what we see, not what we are.
QUOTE(rhymer @ Jun 06, 01:19 PM)
... Will you, therefore, be kind enough to define each of the following lines (used in your text in sequence) for my benefit?
the heart
the eyes of the heart
ears of the heart
wisdom of the heart...
the heart
the eyes of the heart
ears of the heart
wisdom of the heart...
That type of usage refers to the heart "chakra," a nerve ganglion that we can sense emotional feeling in. That's why Saint Valentines Day greeting cards have hearts drawn on them. People feel love in their heart chakras.
QUOTE(Rick @ Jun 07, 08:21 PM)
the heart "chakra," a nerve ganglion that we can sense emotional feeling in.
qué? not in gray's
Heart is the center of being, both physical and spiritual. The heart represents the central wisdom of feeling, as opposed to head-wisdom of reason. Both represent intelligence, but the heart is also compassion, higher understanding, the sacred place, love.
In the world religious and mystic traditions the heart is very important -- it is the center of being; the eye of the heart is the spiritual center, the Absolute Intellect, illumination. The pilgrimage of a seeker, of a mystic, is the outward symbol of the inward journey to the heart, which is the seat of Intellect and the mysterious center where the Divine Spirit touches the human soul.
There are many expressions concerning the heart: to open one´s heart, to give one´s heart, a flaming heart, the Sacred Heart, and so on.
"My heart has opened unto every form ... I practice the religion of Love."
In the world religious and mystic traditions the heart is very important -- it is the center of being; the eye of the heart is the spiritual center, the Absolute Intellect, illumination. The pilgrimage of a seeker, of a mystic, is the outward symbol of the inward journey to the heart, which is the seat of Intellect and the mysterious center where the Divine Spirit touches the human soul.
There are many expressions concerning the heart: to open one´s heart, to give one´s heart, a flaming heart, the Sacred Heart, and so on.
"My heart has opened unto every form ... I practice the religion of Love."
Heart is the center of being, both physical and spiritual. The heart represents the central wisdom of feeling, as opposed to head-wisdom of reason. Both represent intelligence, but the heart is also compassion, higher understanding, the sacred place, love.
In the world religious and mystic traditions the heart is very important -- it is the center of being; the eye of the heart is the spiritual center, the Absolute Intellect, illumination. The pilgrimage of a seeker, of a mystic, is the outward symbol of the inward journey to the heart, which is the seat of Intellect and the mysterious center where the Divine Spirit touches the human soul.
There are many expressions concerning the heart: to open one´s heart, to give one´s heart, a flaming heart, the Sacred Heart, and so on.
"My heart has opened unto every form ... I practice the religion of Love."
In the world religious and mystic traditions the heart is very important -- it is the center of being; the eye of the heart is the spiritual center, the Absolute Intellect, illumination. The pilgrimage of a seeker, of a mystic, is the outward symbol of the inward journey to the heart, which is the seat of Intellect and the mysterious center where the Divine Spirit touches the human soul.
There are many expressions concerning the heart: to open one´s heart, to give one´s heart, a flaming heart, the Sacred Heart, and so on.
"My heart has opened unto every form ... I practice the religion of Love."
SCIENCE OR WISDOM ?
Are we reaching the point of no return ? Do we have time to reverse our collision course ?
The staggering pace of scientific and industrial progress over the past two centuries has placed us on a direct collision course with biodiversity, the product of millions of years of evolution.
Species have always disappeared as a result of the natural renewal of ecosystems. Yet the current rate of extinction is estimated to be up to a thousand times higher than normal.
Today we know that nearly 16,000 known species are directly endangered and some scientists fear that modern societies may be triggering the sixth great wave of extinction since life first appeared.
Many analysts think that it is time now to include in our quest for economic and human progress an awareness of our duties to nature and our responsibility to future generations.
Or, should we, rather, redefine the whole concept of human progress ?
"If our institutions and our consciousness are contrary to the fundamental organizing principles of evolution and nature, we are on a collision course." Yasuhiko Kimura
"The only medicine for suffering, crime, and the other woes of mankind, is wisdom." Thomas Huxley
"The world we have made, as a result of the level of thinking we have done thus far, creates problems we cannot solve at the same level of thinking at which we created them." Albert Einstein
Are we reaching the point of no return ? Do we have time to reverse our collision course ?
The staggering pace of scientific and industrial progress over the past two centuries has placed us on a direct collision course with biodiversity, the product of millions of years of evolution.
Species have always disappeared as a result of the natural renewal of ecosystems. Yet the current rate of extinction is estimated to be up to a thousand times higher than normal.
Today we know that nearly 16,000 known species are directly endangered and some scientists fear that modern societies may be triggering the sixth great wave of extinction since life first appeared.
Many analysts think that it is time now to include in our quest for economic and human progress an awareness of our duties to nature and our responsibility to future generations.
Or, should we, rather, redefine the whole concept of human progress ?
"If our institutions and our consciousness are contrary to the fundamental organizing principles of evolution and nature, we are on a collision course." Yasuhiko Kimura
"The only medicine for suffering, crime, and the other woes of mankind, is wisdom." Thomas Huxley
"The world we have made, as a result of the level of thinking we have done thus far, creates problems we cannot solve at the same level of thinking at which we created them." Albert Einstein
QUOTE(Guest @ Jun 07, 04:36 PM)
Heart is the center of being, both physical and spiritual.
What on earth does this mean. in practical terms? I agree that
QUOTE(Guest @ Jun 07, 04:36 PM)
The heart represents the central wisdom of feeling, as opposed to head-wisdom of reason. Both represent intelligence, but the heart is also compassion, higher understanding, the sacred place, love....
if only I knew what it all means, I might have more to say.BTW, do not allow me--with my matter of fact approach to things--stop you from saying what you feel is true, for you. Go ahead: be bold and poetic. All I ask is that you not be too sensitive, and that you be ready to agree to disagree, agreeably.
Lindsay,
You may read "Symbolic Christian Significance of the word "Heart"
http://www.netsonic.fi/~scjregfi/heart1.html
You may read "Symbolic Christian Significance of the word "Heart"
http://www.netsonic.fi/~scjregfi/heart1.html
QUOTE(Guest @ Jun 07, 06:13 PM)
Lindsay,
You may read "Symbolic Christian Significance of the word "Heart"
http://www.netsonic.fi/~scjregfi/heart1.html
QUOTE(maximus242 @ Jun 06, 01:05 AM)
I agree Rhymer, I had come to the same conclusion a fair while ago, quite simply I found that we seemed to be divine and mortal, divine in the sense we created gods and mortal in the sense that they created us and thus we are our own creators, our own gods..
You go further than I.
I don't regard man as divine at all.
Mans 'creation' of Gods involves thoughts only; the Gods do not exist in reality, only the thoughts about them are real and confined within the brains of those who hold them [in my opinion].
Neither do I believe that we create ourselves; that is down to our parents.
There was once a brilliant computer scientist who was, also, a reluctant atheist and the son of a thelogically conservative minister, who had a child-like and unquestioning faith in God. Despite their differences the father and son loved and respected each other. Their debates were always friendly ones.
One day he said to his father: "Father, Voltaire once said that if God did not exist, we would have to invent him." Well, I think I have finally done just that. I have put together what I believe is an infallible, voice-activated computer. "Ask it any question that comes to your mind. If it fails to do so, I will believe in your God" said the son.
The son, loved his father. He simply questioned his father's child-like faith and challenged him to at least test out the computer. He said, "Dad, come and try my computer."
The father, who loved his son, agreed.
Sure enough, no matter what question the father--who was well read in philosophy, science, history, the Bible, theology, even mundane subjects, such as sports, asked, the computer gave the right answer.
The father was impressed. Then he said, "You know son, I have always been a man of faith, but I confess that there have been times when I have had my doubts as to whether or not there really is a God. The sudden death of your mother, despite all those prayers, was especially troubling to me."
Delighted to hear his father's humble confession the son replied: "Okay father, now is our chance to find out. Why don't we ask the computer. Why don't you go ahead and pop the question?"
Screwing up his courage, the father, gingerly, asked: "Infallible computer, please tell us: Is there a one true God and loving heavenly father?"
Immediately the room turned into a pink cloud. Out of the cloud came a strong and god-like voice: "No. What you call, God, is an idol created by the human imaginaton!"
This was followed by a period of deep silence. Gradually, the pink cloud disappeared. Then a soft female voice, not unlike that of the minister's wife, came from the computer, which now seemed to have an aura of light around it. The following words appeared on the screen as the voice spoke them:
"However, this does not mean that there is no GØD--a spirituality beyond any human ability to imagine and define. GØD as Spirit, is the highest good, Love; for 'GØD is Love.'"
TO ALL WHO SEEK THE HIGHEST GOOD.
"Dearly beloved, I see that both of you, despite your differences, love, honour, respect and are kind to one another and all you meet. You actually practice what you say you believe. Building on this kind of practical love, I want to remind you that, 'In the beginning GØD, created...is Spirit,,,and Love.'
"As one with GØD, we all have a lot more loving and creating to get done. And, by the way, we have an eternity of time and an infinity of space in which to do it. What's more, we now know that, deep within us, we all have a spiritual and infallible guide. What are we waiting for?'
One day he said to his father: "Father, Voltaire once said that if God did not exist, we would have to invent him." Well, I think I have finally done just that. I have put together what I believe is an infallible, voice-activated computer. "Ask it any question that comes to your mind. If it fails to do so, I will believe in your God" said the son.
The son, loved his father. He simply questioned his father's child-like faith and challenged him to at least test out the computer. He said, "Dad, come and try my computer."
The father, who loved his son, agreed.
Sure enough, no matter what question the father--who was well read in philosophy, science, history, the Bible, theology, even mundane subjects, such as sports, asked, the computer gave the right answer.
The father was impressed. Then he said, "You know son, I have always been a man of faith, but I confess that there have been times when I have had my doubts as to whether or not there really is a God. The sudden death of your mother, despite all those prayers, was especially troubling to me."
Delighted to hear his father's humble confession the son replied: "Okay father, now is our chance to find out. Why don't we ask the computer. Why don't you go ahead and pop the question?"
Screwing up his courage, the father, gingerly, asked: "Infallible computer, please tell us: Is there a one true God and loving heavenly father?"
Immediately the room turned into a pink cloud. Out of the cloud came a strong and god-like voice: "No. What you call, God, is an idol created by the human imaginaton!"
This was followed by a period of deep silence. Gradually, the pink cloud disappeared. Then a soft female voice, not unlike that of the minister's wife, came from the computer, which now seemed to have an aura of light around it. The following words appeared on the screen as the voice spoke them:
"However, this does not mean that there is no GØD--a spirituality beyond any human ability to imagine and define. GØD as Spirit, is the highest good, Love; for 'GØD is Love.'"
TO ALL WHO SEEK THE HIGHEST GOOD.
"Dearly beloved, I see that both of you, despite your differences, love, honour, respect and are kind to one another and all you meet. You actually practice what you say you believe. Building on this kind of practical love, I want to remind you that, 'In the beginning GØD, created...is Spirit,,,and Love.'
"As one with GØD, we all have a lot more loving and creating to get done. And, by the way, we have an eternity of time and an infinity of space in which to do it. What's more, we now know that, deep within us, we all have a spiritual and infallible guide. What are we waiting for?'
"And if you would know God, be not therefore a solver of riddles.
Rather look about you and you shall see Him playing with your children.
And look into space; you shall see Him walking in the cloud, outstretching His arms in the lightning and descending in rain.
You shall see Him smiling in flowers, then rising and waving His hands in trees."
The Prophet
Rather look about you and you shall see Him playing with your children.
And look into space; you shall see Him walking in the cloud, outstretching His arms in the lightning and descending in rain.
You shall see Him smiling in flowers, then rising and waving His hands in trees."
The Prophet
Dear Rhymer,
We are what we think we are, what we feel we are.
What do You feel at the core of Your Being ?
Do You have a Heart inflamed and a Soul enchanted ?
Do You have a flaming Heart and a winged Soul ?
Because this is what really matters.
And all is found in the great silence of the heart.
We are what we think we are, what we feel we are.
What do You feel at the core of Your Being ?
Do You have a Heart inflamed and a Soul enchanted ?
Do You have a flaming Heart and a winged Soul ?
Because this is what really matters.
And all is found in the great silence of the heart.
QUOTE(Guest @ Jun 08, 03:20 PM)
Dear Rhymer,
We are what we think we are, what we feel we are.
What do You feel at the core of Your Being ?
Do You have a Heart inflamed and a Soul enchanted ?
Do You have a flaming Heart and a winged Soul ?
Because this is what really matters.
And all is found in the great silence of the heart.
<We are what we think we are, what we feel we are.>
This may be true for some people.
But, I know of those who think they are important - yet aren't.
I know of those who think they are useless - yet they are not.
Each of our brains can be used to create 'models' of The Truth of ourselves and the world in which we live.
Lucky ones gradually develop pretty close approximations to the Truth - others live in cloud cuckoo land!
It is our communications and the analysis we undertake (with the advantage of 'feeling') that allows us to continually change our models and fine-tune them. We never know when we have the exact Truth (except for repeatedly demonstrable events which are totally understood, at least by perhaps other very clever people).
<What do You feel at the core of Your Being ?>
Nothing stands out really.
I suppose I would have to say an overall happiness and thankfulness.
<Do You have a Heart inflamed and a Soul enchanted ?>
I don't recognise the presumed Heart, so can't comment on it.
I don't recognise the Soul so can't comment on it.
The nearest I can come to comprehending these items is to align them with some sub groups of the thoughts and feelings which I have from moment to moment.
I feel good tending plants in my garden.
I enjoy helping other people.
I am saddened when I see those people who are worse off than I am, particularly from disasters, famine and poor health and housing. (Isn't everybody?)
<Do You have a flaming Heart and a winged Soul ?>
Is this something to do with deep and strong desires and and a feeling of freedom?
<And all is found in the great silence of the heart.>
I would have to say that it is all within the nervous system.
<Because this is what really matters.>
No-one knows what really matters.
In the first instance do you mean for current people or for the future generations of the planet?
Do you mean for the Self or for others, or both?
What are the duties of an individual?
What are the responsibilities of an individual?
They are what is chosen by the people or society or religions or autocrats, or politicians, or parents, or peers, or Gods (peoples thoughts).
And, no-one knows what is best or 'right'.
I trust Nature, even though it has made us selfish first, loving those who love us or depend on us second, ditto family third, ditto friends fourth, ditto colleagues sixth, ditto society seventh, ditto country eighth, ditto other countries ninth ( I think you get my drift).
Different people will have different priorities eg., football team first!!!!
In another forum I responded as follows to a guest who raised some theological questions: http://boomer.invisionzone.com/index.php?a...t=80#entry27523
================================
Guest: Keep in mind that I am not speaking of the god, or God, concept in which I was raised. I am talking about a GØD concept--which, at this point, I know only in part, through the use of my imperfect senses. Check out the way Paul expresses this thought in 1 Corinthians 13: 11-12.
Permit me to ask you: How man scientists, do you know of who are willing to boast that they know how to fully define the universe--that is, define the universe in brief enough form to fit on a T-shirt? I do not know of any. The ones that I do know are humble enough to admit: "The universe--in its microcosmic and/or the macrocosmic forms--is still pretty much a mystery to science.
In the same way, I readily admit that, at this point, it is impossible for me to fully define GØD, in toto. There is much more to GØD--imminently and transcendently--than can be put in the covers of all the sacred books, let alone on a T-Shirt. This is what make's GØD, GØD.
However, this does not mean that we cannot saying anything about GØD. The more I get to know of and experience the universe, often with the help of science, the more I get to know GØD. Not being a fixed and objective being up, or even out, there, GØD, for me, is the universe I know plus the rest of the universe in a mysterious space-time continuum. It is this GØD, which I am more than willing and happy to lovingly explore, forever and ever. This exciting new and joyful concept of GØD is the reason I need this new way of writing the GØD-concept.
Keep in mind: I have no desire to impose my theology on anyone. I am more than willing to listen to what anyone has to say.
Even though it may be a partial one, feel free to give me your definition of God.
================================
Guest: Keep in mind that I am not speaking of the god, or God, concept in which I was raised. I am talking about a GØD concept--which, at this point, I know only in part, through the use of my imperfect senses. Check out the way Paul expresses this thought in 1 Corinthians 13: 11-12.
Permit me to ask you: How man scientists, do you know of who are willing to boast that they know how to fully define the universe--that is, define the universe in brief enough form to fit on a T-shirt? I do not know of any. The ones that I do know are humble enough to admit: "The universe--in its microcosmic and/or the macrocosmic forms--is still pretty much a mystery to science.
In the same way, I readily admit that, at this point, it is impossible for me to fully define GØD, in toto. There is much more to GØD--imminently and transcendently--than can be put in the covers of all the sacred books, let alone on a T-Shirt. This is what make's GØD, GØD.
However, this does not mean that we cannot saying anything about GØD. The more I get to know of and experience the universe, often with the help of science, the more I get to know GØD. Not being a fixed and objective being up, or even out, there, GØD, for me, is the universe I know plus the rest of the universe in a mysterious space-time continuum. It is this GØD, which I am more than willing and happy to lovingly explore, forever and ever. This exciting new and joyful concept of GØD is the reason I need this new way of writing the GØD-concept.
Keep in mind: I have no desire to impose my theology on anyone. I am more than willing to listen to what anyone has to say.
Even though it may be a partial one, feel free to give me your definition of God.
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Jun 09, 09:01 AM)
... feel free to give me your definition of God.
God is the universe and nothing more. Therefore, the very word "God" (or however you want to spell it) is redundant and should not be used because of the confusion it generates. Deliberate generators of confusion (such as our present USA administration) are evil because of the harm they can do to people's understanding. A more important question is this:
Why are so many so-called Christians so warlike? The right wing "conservatives" in the USA mostly proclaim to be Christians and all seem to be pro-war. They denounce anyone who suggests we should leave Iraq or should not have invaded it in the first place.
Isn't Christ himself called the Prince of Peace? Didn't He say that the peace makers are blessed? Didn't he say that the evil ones (weeds and chaff) will be thrown on the fire while the grain will be taken up to the storehouse?
QUOTE(Rick @ Jun 09, 08:18 AM)
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Jun 09, 09:01 AM)
... feel free to give me your definition of God.
God is the universe and nothing more....
As to your rhetorical questions about war-like "Christians": They could start a war.
BTW, I wonder: Do we have any posters who would call themselves born-again "conservative Christians"? Of so, where are you?
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Jun 09, 11:11 AM)
... But do you have to appear to be dogmatic? Are you insisting that I--and Orthodox Jews who use G-d--have to use your terms and follow suit with you? IMHO, new concepts need new words.
As I mentioned, the terms imply the existence of a monotheistic god, one that exists outside creation, and that is a false idea. It is not dogmatic to be against lies.
The ordinary "consciousness" , or the "Waking Sleep" consciousness, in which most of people live, is a state of partial or dim awareness. It is akin to the state of sleep-walkers or zombies. Carl Jung said that even those people to belong to the highest stratum of consciousness have a consciousness that reflects the life of the last few centuries; that every step towards fuller consciousness removes a person further from the herd, from submersion in a common unconsciousness; that the man we may call modern, the man who is aware of the immediate present,
is by no means the average man, that such a man is rarely met with. This is a man with a minimum of unconsciousness. Thus, such a man becomes "unhistorical" in the deepest sense and has estranged himself from the mass of men who live entirely within the bounds of tradition.
The ordinarily conscious human beings, who are only partially conscious, are living on the periphery of their selves or in the false center, the ego, which is a by-product of the societal conditioning. This ego, or the false center, is the source of all pain, conflict, intolerance, aggression, hatred, confusion, and so on. "Why are so many so-called Christians so war-like?" There is a huge difference between Christ and christians. Christ is an Awakened One, the One who realized His True Essence,
His Divinity, His True Potential. A christian is a believer, a follower, the one who is still asleep, who is not aware of his True Nature. And there is a huge difference between Knowing and believing.
There are 3 fundamental ways of knowing: scientific, artistic, and through direct revelation.
"No-one knows what really matters." ???
"No-one knows what is best or right." ???
"What are the duties of an individual? What are the responsibilities of an individual?"
Rhymer,
Are You here to fulfill somebody´s expectations, or fulfill Yourself ?
Are You the One who lives by His inward light and is guided by His Spirit ?
is by no means the average man, that such a man is rarely met with. This is a man with a minimum of unconsciousness. Thus, such a man becomes "unhistorical" in the deepest sense and has estranged himself from the mass of men who live entirely within the bounds of tradition.
The ordinarily conscious human beings, who are only partially conscious, are living on the periphery of their selves or in the false center, the ego, which is a by-product of the societal conditioning. This ego, or the false center, is the source of all pain, conflict, intolerance, aggression, hatred, confusion, and so on. "Why are so many so-called Christians so war-like?" There is a huge difference between Christ and christians. Christ is an Awakened One, the One who realized His True Essence,
His Divinity, His True Potential. A christian is a believer, a follower, the one who is still asleep, who is not aware of his True Nature. And there is a huge difference between Knowing and believing.
There are 3 fundamental ways of knowing: scientific, artistic, and through direct revelation.
"No-one knows what really matters." ???
"No-one knows what is best or right." ???
"What are the duties of an individual? What are the responsibilities of an individual?"
Rhymer,
Are You here to fulfill somebody´s expectations, or fulfill Yourself ?
Are You the One who lives by His inward light and is guided by His Spirit ?
QUOTE(Rick @ Jun 09, 10:28 AM)
As I mentioned, the terms imply the existence of a monotheistic god, one that exists outside creation, and that is a false idea. It is not dogmatic to be against lies.
GØD, IMHO, is not the God apparent in traditional monotheism; G, IMO--and Jesus is a good example of this--became flesh (John 1), that is, material--in the universe as we know it. Born-aginers say that this incarnation of God was confined to Jesus. I think they are wrong, but I would not call them liars. Are you in the habit of calling all sincerely-held beliefs "lies"? Sounds like fighting words, to me. I assumed you to be a man of peace. Or am I wrong to think this?
hello guest,
Are You here to fulfill somebody´s expectations, or fulfill Yourself ?
No-one has any expectations of me, save that I continue to behave as I do.
I do not think to myself every day 'how can I fulfill myself today'?
I do jobs that need doing after prioritisation.
I do things I enjoy doing.
I visit sick people. etc......
Are You the One who lives by His inward light and is guided by His Spirit ?
I don't recognise an 'inward light'.
I can presume that you refer to something inside me.
Light....battery driven....candle....illumination...ah yes, discovering!! I do this frequently, spending hours thinking about incorrigibles. When I do a DIY job, I hit very problems because 'I go through the actions' in mind first. When the design is complete my wife expresses amazement, but I feel no surprise - I knew beforehand exactly what it would look like and how it would perform.
I believe most people are operating at a much higher state of conciousness than you declare.
They may be limited by other inadequacies but they are not zombie-like as you state.
I afford respect to those who show by their deeds and abilities that they have clear consciousness and agile brains.
Are You here to fulfill somebody´s expectations, or fulfill Yourself ?
No-one has any expectations of me, save that I continue to behave as I do.
I do not think to myself every day 'how can I fulfill myself today'?
I do jobs that need doing after prioritisation.
I do things I enjoy doing.
I visit sick people. etc......
Are You the One who lives by His inward light and is guided by His Spirit ?
I don't recognise an 'inward light'.
I can presume that you refer to something inside me.
Light....battery driven....candle....illumination...ah yes, discovering!! I do this frequently, spending hours thinking about incorrigibles. When I do a DIY job, I hit very problems because 'I go through the actions' in mind first. When the design is complete my wife expresses amazement, but I feel no surprise - I knew beforehand exactly what it would look like and how it would perform.
I believe most people are operating at a much higher state of conciousness than you declare.
They may be limited by other inadequacies but they are not zombie-like as you state.
I afford respect to those who show by their deeds and abilities that they have clear consciousness and agile brains.
Hello, Rhymer,
Good to be back in touch!
If most people in our world were operating at a higher state of consciousness, this world would be very different from what it is.
The world is what we are, it mirrors the state of our collective consciousness.
Can You imagine the world in which the critical mass of consciousness is Christ´s Consciousness !?
It would be The Kingdom of Heaven on Earth !
Good to be back in touch!
If most people in our world were operating at a higher state of consciousness, this world would be very different from what it is.
The world is what we are, it mirrors the state of our collective consciousness.
Can You imagine the world in which the critical mass of consciousness is Christ´s Consciousness !?
It would be The Kingdom of Heaven on Earth !
hello guest,
You do seem to enjoy our community, and raise interesting views.
Will you not consider registering and choosing a name by which we can 'call' you?
You will still be anonymous and it won't necessarily cost you anything!
I have to agree that the world would be a different place if we all had the same consciousness as Christ (ie. the principles He laid down).
But first of all you have to believe that Christ was more than a normal person; that His dad was God for instance!
The interesting thing is that Gods need not exist. As long as people believe in them, it's as good as the eventuality that they do or did exist!
However, I don't think the world would necessarily be a better place.
Can you explain why you think it would so be?
Remember that perfection is ahuman concept and I suspect that it represents an unattainable objective.
No specification for any design can represent perfection.
You do seem to enjoy our community, and raise interesting views.
Will you not consider registering and choosing a name by which we can 'call' you?
You will still be anonymous and it won't necessarily cost you anything!
I have to agree that the world would be a different place if we all had the same consciousness as Christ (ie. the principles He laid down).
But first of all you have to believe that Christ was more than a normal person; that His dad was God for instance!
The interesting thing is that Gods need not exist. As long as people believe in them, it's as good as the eventuality that they do or did exist!
However, I don't think the world would necessarily be a better place.
Can you explain why you think it would so be?
Remember that perfection is ahuman concept and I suspect that it represents an unattainable objective.
No specification for any design can represent perfection.
QUOTE(Rick @ Jun 09, 10:28 AM)
As I mentioned, the terms imply the existence of a monotheistic god, one that exists outside creation, and that is a false idea. It is not dogmatic to be against lies.
I revise my response above, as follows: You are wrong Rick. Unitheism--a double for pan-en-theism--is not deism. Voltaire was a deist. So were most of the founding fathers of the USA. For example, Benjamin Franklin. Neither is unitheism exactly the same as monotheism.
IMO, GØD is wrapped up in what we call the body of creation. I think of GØD as being in an through matter, without being dependent on it. In the same way, I need my physical body, for now. But my physical body is not entirely me. If you misunderstand what I am saying, I do not need to say you are lying. Surely, we can disagree with being accusative.
I repeat, GØD, IMHO, is not the God apparent in traditional monotheism. And this is an obvious reason why the new symbol is necessary. IMO, before the Big Bang, there was only GØD, being in a raw and unconscious form--the idea behind what we call the material universe.
However, at the BB, the process of GØD becoming matter, mind and life, began. And 15 billion years later, here we are. As John 1 puts it: "In the beginning was the Word (the very idea of things, GØD)" and "The Word (GØD) became flesh..." That is, the universe, as we know it, including humaniity, began to to come into being. The theological term for this is, "incarnation".
Born-aginers, bless their hearts, who take the Bible as being literally true, say that this incarnation of God on earth was confined to Jesus; that he alone is the Son of God. Roman Catholicism and the several Orthodox churches have a similar doctrine of incarnation. I think they are wrong. Sincere, but wrong. I believe we can all be incarnations of GØD--sons and daughters of GØD--if we so choose. But, if there are those disagree with me, I would not call them liars . IMO, the GØD concept transcends all forms of denominational religion.
BTW, Are you in the habit of calling all sincerely-held beliefs "lies"? Sounds like fighting words, to me. I had assumed you to be a man of peace. Or am I wrong to assume this? I hope you are a man of peace!
Seems to me as though your god is a limited concept to accommodate "good" and for simpletons has to depend on an independent supernatural entity/force/deity or whatever. Rick's "universe" is a much better term, as it includes everything, and certainly more than good. Love is an evolutionary adaptive advantage probably related originally to pairing and protection of subsequent offspring. It is a rather enjoyable experience and has even evolved further to embrace (!) more than coupling for reproductive purposes.
QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Jun 10, 09:43 AM)
Seems to me as though your god is a limited concept to accommodate "good" and for simpletons has to depend on an independent supernatural entity/force/deity or whatever. Rick's "universe" is a much better term, as it includes everything, and certainly more than good. Love is an evolutionary adaptive advantage probably related originally to pairing and protection of subsequent offspring. It is a rather enjoyable experience and has even evolved further to embrace (!) more than coupling for reproductive purposes.
I quote just a snippet of a dialogue I am having with Steppenwolf @ Jun 10, 09:47 AM. It is from the thread, Divine Attributes of God: Steppenwolf, a Muslim--one who believes that everything, including death and destruction, comes under the will of Allah (The over-all power) "I'm rather intruding here..." He wrote.
I respoonded: Rest assured: "Nothing here, that contributes to the common good, need be considered intrusive.
"You say that in Islam, "God is described as that which is," and, " 'not like anything else' as well as 'encompasses the heavens and earth'." I like it. This is what I mean to indicate when I write GØD.
"I like the point you seem to be making when you write: "God (as understood by Muslims) seems to be quite a generic term to many things, but definately not a a term for a person." I like it."
Then I asked: "Do you think that it could be possible for Jews, Chrstians, Muslims and, perhaps, certain other theological thinkers, to get together and write a NEW kind of theology for the 21st. Century? I hope that this could be so."
HH, are you aware that your comments about "love" have little or nothing to do with the Christian concept of "love"?
They have to do with what the Greeks meant when they wrote of EROS and perhaps PHILIA--BTW, they are useful and valid in the proper context, but they are limited by natural conditions.
AGAPE IS NOT THE SAME AS EROS OR PHILIA
The New Testament Greek word for "love"--the one used by Paul in I Corinthians 13--is a special word, AGAPE. The Latin translation is CHARITAS--from which we get 'charity'. Modern Greeks say AGAPO, meaning "I love you, unconditionally". Have you read I Cor. 13? If not, I suggest you do.
If I had my way, I would stop using 'love' to indicate true Christian Love, and I would use 'charity' or 'agape' instead. Hollywood love, romantic love, is linked too closely to erotic and sensual pleasure. IMO, erotic and filial pleasures guided by charity, or agape, can be lasting. But without this guidance life will become romantic tragedies, like most of our movies and plays.
BTW, this is a perfect example I need for new words to define new concepts. GØD is a new concept, for most people. I repeat, if you prefer Universe, or Uni, it is your call. However, may I ask: Is your Universe strictly a physical one? What do you do about mentality, and/or spirituality?
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Jun 11, 02:00 PM)
HH, if we are to communicate what we really mean, there is much in the above which indicates the need for dialogue. It makes me wonder: How much of my stuff have you read?
Lindsay, I simply attempted to summarise my views on certain aspects of this ongoing discussion (through several topics in this and other boards). That I make the comments here seems to worry you and you arrogantly ask if I have read your other material in an attempt to discedit or quash my critique. Do not assume that you always communicate with prols. Some of us here are academics of many years standing and some have considerable experience of religious matters.
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Jun 11, 02:00 PM)
HH, are you aware that your comments about "love" have little or nothing to do with the Christian concept of "love"?
You might have missed a past of my small submissions were I say:
QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Jun 10, 09:43 AM)
has even evolved further to embrace (!) more than coupling for reproductive purposes.
Regarding your:
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Jun 11, 02:00 PM)
If I had my way, I would stop using 'love' to indicate true Christian Love....
I think we have to take care when making the words we use the excuse for overcomplicated arguments used in an attempt to confuse the simple minded and gain their acceptance of otherwise incoherent philosophies. Many of us know that "red" can mean any of the many shades of red and that other colours can become red under different illumination conditions.
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Jun 11, 02:00 PM)
BTW, this is a perfect example I need for new words to define new concepts. GØD is a new concept, for most people. I repeat, if you prefer Universe, or Uni, it is your call.
These new concepts are the evolution of old religious concepts, or a diversion to confuse, or further clutching at straws as the demise of religion in all its forms occurs before our eyes under the weight of logic and the power of mass education?
QUOTE(Lindsay @ Jun 11, 02:00 PM)
However, may I ask: Is your Universe strictly a physical one? What do you do about mentality, and/or spirituality?
Hint, I believe in the mind, hence my presence on the BrainMeta forum. Spirituality, well I realised that magicians don't really do magic at quite an early age.
Lindsay, I forgot to ask, in your GØD world, do you worship?
Spiritual guidance is the art of making a person become what s/he IS.
It is making a person SEE what s/he IS, rather than telling a person what s/he should be.
It is freeing people from their limitations, not making them dependent on someboby´s opinion or will.
Human consciousness has a remarkable quality of elasticity which enables it to grasp wider and higher dimensions.
We can expand our consciousness by shifting its focus to a higher plane -- invoking a particular archetype and dwelling upon a particular quality we want to embody.
It is possible to become aware of the Cosmic dimensions of our being.
Yet, if one wishes to pass upwards, the ego must be surrendered. The personal ego center must be annihilated, disintegrated, or integrated into a higher dimension of reality.
The shattering of the ego is always a painful process.
And this is the true meaning of death and resurrection -- death of the personality, or the personal ego center, and the resurrection from earthly bondage and limitations.
This is the meaning of the mass and all sacred rituals in all religions.
One becomes impersonal, one becomes "That" -- the divine mystery of non-being ...
"How else can one find oneself than by losing that which one thought one was ?
How can one undergo transformation without being shattered ?
When Truth has overwhelmed a human heart, It empties it of all that is not truth.
When God loves a being, He kills everything that is not Him.
I saw my Lord with the eye of the heart, and I said, "Who are You?" And He said, "YourSelf".
I am the wine of the holy sacrament, my very being is intoxication."
It is making a person SEE what s/he IS, rather than telling a person what s/he should be.
It is freeing people from their limitations, not making them dependent on someboby´s opinion or will.
Human consciousness has a remarkable quality of elasticity which enables it to grasp wider and higher dimensions.
We can expand our consciousness by shifting its focus to a higher plane -- invoking a particular archetype and dwelling upon a particular quality we want to embody.
It is possible to become aware of the Cosmic dimensions of our being.
Yet, if one wishes to pass upwards, the ego must be surrendered. The personal ego center must be annihilated, disintegrated, or integrated into a higher dimension of reality.
The shattering of the ego is always a painful process.
And this is the true meaning of death and resurrection -- death of the personality, or the personal ego center, and the resurrection from earthly bondage and limitations.
This is the meaning of the mass and all sacred rituals in all religions.
One becomes impersonal, one becomes "That" -- the divine mystery of non-being ...
"How else can one find oneself than by losing that which one thought one was ?
How can one undergo transformation without being shattered ?
When Truth has overwhelmed a human heart, It empties it of all that is not truth.
When God loves a being, He kills everything that is not Him.
I saw my Lord with the eye of the heart, and I said, "Who are You?" And He said, "YourSelf".
I am the wine of the holy sacrament, my very being is intoxication."
QUOTE(Guest @ Jun 11, 03:30 PM)
How else can one find oneself than by losing that which one thought one was ?
You state a lot of gobbledygook (look up the definition - seriously!), as the circular statement above proves. Once you've found yourself then you (re)think what you are. Of course, then you then have to again lose yourself to find yourself........
QUOTE(Guest @ Jun 11, 03:30 PM)
I am the wine of the holy sacrament, my very being is intoxication.
OK, I have to admit that this statement is very poetic, but then so is The Jabberwocky.
Hey Hey,
You will go on shape-shifting until You have found YourSelf !
You will go on shape-shifting until You have found YourSelf !
QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Jun 11, 06:11 AM)
Lindsay, I forgot to ask, in your GØD world, do you worship?
http://www.pathwayschurch.ca/
http://www.progressivechristianity.ca/
Not given to a lot of ritual.
BTW, I enjoy honest critiques, pro and con, and I have no intent of quashing it, ever, as long as we stick to the topic and avoid argumentum ad hominems, direct or implied. If my question offened you, I apologise.
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