First off Joesus, I have to say that your answer is the best from a spiritual point of view I have ever had the pleasure of reading. I get the feeling you seem to understand what I am saying.

I was unable to quote you so hope you can make out your own text.

" find that the external tools no matter what they are if used properly will give one the experience that they desire. "

Given that there are no tools today that could cause enlightenment, makes this speculation. The tools of today does result in what you say and a mind focused on Intuition/Heart is needed to go further.

" The Gifts of spiritual union are useless to those who are one sidedly seeking to achieve only material wealth. "

I don't think this is necessarily true. I don't see such a separation between people.

" You can get tired of a good thing and there is no appreciation without the contrast of opposites and spiritual awareness. "

I think the appreciation does not necessarily need to be cultivated. The code for it could be found and planted on a person's personality. Also, since attachment is sentiment and sentiment can, I think, be wiped even today, lack of attachment and spirituality are not the same thing - maybe I read you wrong.

What is spirituality? I don't think this has been set in stone. You say it's the contrast. I think that meditation for example makes one see the space between A and B and so icreases the contrast and slows one down. But spirituality can also be dyanmic. Both are methods of weighting with a common goal; yet what that goals exactly is, is hard to put in words.

" I think when you say you like to be pragmatic, that you are saying you're commited to sticking to a certain point of reference and would rather speak in terms of your own thinking and experience. "

I would rather say I like to be uncomfortable with not being able to logicly back up my intuitive experiences. Some may say that this way if I don't surrender to the Heart completely, I cannot see the truth. Well, alright, I guess ufo's can fly around all the time but isn't it a bit too simple to become a Believer after a couple of abductions?

" Combining wisdom and experience allows one to observe objectively rather than living subjectively on one side of the track carrying judgment and living with an attachment to things being a certain way. "

I think so yes. Yet there are many examples of the other extreme (letting experience only guide you) and that puts me off.

" All things being relative to something, the universe is only a reflection of the thoughts that we entertain as we create our own reality. "

So are you saying there are and are not ufo's depending on what one believes? That both realities exist at the same time and are equally valid?

" Some people like Miracle Whip "

That can be understood in many funny ways.

Yes

Joesus, what is your opinion of John Welwood?

John Welwood on gurus

Why do you say so? How do you know it is so? If you don't know, Do you feel it?

There could be many spiritual men among schizophrenics - but how do you find out what is real in what they say when they are not mentally stable and/or not able to communicate their experiences well.

Some people have said that there is a difference between an elicited spiritual phenomenon and a genuine one. Naturally no placebo tests can be conducted.

It doesn't surprise me if one eventually could, after becoming open to such a phenomenon, learn to live between the supposed realities. Yet I would think such a state be vulnerable to noise and other stimuli; how could think straight in there, without accidentally imagining a tiger next to you and then trying to will it away and not panicking.

Have any Indians, let alone westerners documented the "changing body size by will" etc. one of the highest forms of mind over matter... I read that some yogis capable of that might still be alive.

I had never heard of him unitl I read the link posted by Dan.
However skimming through his essay I find there are some useful points that are mentioned regarding surrender, which point to different levels of conscious awareness, which differentiate the Teacher of consciousness and the Teacher of intellect.



The universe is ultimately flexible to respond to the desires of any thought. The way you know this is not through the self perceived experiences of ones own past, although they can be useful. The mind can conjure up any amount of reasons as to why things are the way they are.
Differences of opinion according to points of reference in knowledge that are passed down from one to another are based on assumptions about the physical universe that are not connected spiritually to anything stable. They are connected to changing points of reference in the evolutionary knowledge base.

Our own history has shown us that what we determine to be truth through the interpretation of reality based on what we hear and project often distorts the underlying unchanging aspects of all things. Both science and religion have been changing with the need to meet the intellect where it is at and the choices that are made not from consciousness, but consciousness that is obsured beneath the layers of fear based programs of human ego that are threatened by the idea that we, as a species may not be the center of the Universe.. The fear of death and loss of identity leaves us without any form of control.

The way the spiritual masters approach reality is to align with the basic, fundamental principal of all things, which by appearances, are living and non-living.

Once one comes to know this Transcendant home of the consciousness that exists in all of humanity the mind can link itself to any reality, any human experience at will, because the universal mind is not bound by any body, past, present or future. Consciousness is not bound by time and space.
How I know this is the same way any spiritual master knows this. By giving attention to it.


This is true however there are others who can communicate their experiences of Self mastery well enough and even better, they can lead the ego mind away from the stories of others and the fantasies the ego creates in the ideas of traversing the universe as God in control of things.

The Ego mostly fascinated with its own ideals and points of reference loves to expand its own box, but will never give up control willingly. It fears losing control. So many love to watch and hear the masters tell stories of how you can manipulate time and space, but will never cross a line that might threaten anything they are attached to.
Thousands followed Jesus but only a handful really understood what he was saying. The rest wanted someone or something to take care of them, to take away the very things they were creating from their own ignorance. Their inability to change things because of the beliefs in their own limitations and liabilities.

Placebo tests are used all the time to show us just how powerful the mind is in influencing our experiences of life. The mind can influence the body and its ability to heal itself. The body is an extension of the mind and the world an extension of the body.

You imagine the idea and you also break it down through your own beliefs in limitation.


The bigger question would be, would you believe it if you read it?
The bible makes reference to Jesus walking on water and raising the dead, saying, "these things I do are not of my own will, and these things that I do you can do and even greater things."

Have you read "The life and Teachings of the Masters of the Far East" by Baird T. Spalding? It is, according to its claims, the story of a scientific team that traveled into the East and spent several years with spiritual masters. Baird Spalding spent years afterwards lecturing about the reality of God within the individual and the mastery within all of us and how simple it is to achieve if one really desires to know it above and beyond the beliefs in human frailty and limitation.

Thank you Joesus, you remind me of this, did you see it Mayonaise?
http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=319&hl=poole

This was both a ufo and not ;0)

hmm intresting, well I think illusion or not, religion still serves the same purpose to relieve people of the mental anxiety of life and death. Besides anything and everything is both real and illusion, we all have diffrent sub realities from which we view the world. Think of it this way, are we having the illusion that something doesnt exist or are they having the illusion that something does, or niether?

I can already change size in some of my body parts at will, just by thinking about it.

Boooiiiinnnnnggggg!

So does this bulleting board and TV.


So your both making a point and not making a point.....

Non commitment the other religion..

It's what i do best :0) Have you heard of the middle way?



might be, might not.

"What you put your attention onto, grows".

I guess some are more interested in putting their attention on their johnson then conscious expansion...

Sorry for the long delay in posting.

>The universe is ultimately flexible to respond to the desires of any thought. The way you know this is not >through the self perceived experiences of ones own past, although they can be useful. The mind can >conjure up any amount of reasons as to why things are the way they are.

This could be true, I've been reading something about this.

>Differences of opinion according to points of reference in knowledge that are passed down from one to >another are based on assumptions about the physical universe that are not connected spiritually to >anything stable. They are connected to changing points of reference in the evolutionary knowledge base.

Are you saying that spirituality is stable, and the evolutionary knowledge base is not?

>Our own history has shown us that what we determine to be truth through the interpretation of reality >based on what we hear and project often distorts the underlying unchanging aspects of all things. Both >science and religion have been changing with the need to meet the intellect where it is at and the choices >that are made not from consciousness, but consciousness that is obsured beneath the layers of fear based >programs of human ego that are threatened by the idea that we, as a species may not be the center of the >Universe.. The fear of death and loss of identity leaves us without any form of control.

I like the concept of 'center of the Universe'. Intriguing. What would we know without fear. What would you know?

Yes - being a social creature also distorts our view of reality, but it may also clarify it. Probably intellect can do this same thing.

>Once one comes to know this Transcendant home of the consciousness that exists in all of humanity the >mind can link itself to any reality, any human experience at will, because the universal mind is not bound >by any body, past, present or future. Consciousness is not bound by time and space.
>How I know this is the same way any spiritual master knows this. By giving attention to it.

Time travel? Past lives? Those experiences can probably be induced but I admit it's scary if what you say is true.

>This is true however there are others who can communicate their experiences of Self mastery well enough >and even better, they can lead the ego mind away from the stories of others and the fantasies the ego >creates in the ideas of traversing the universe as God in control of things.

I like that.

>The Ego mostly fascinated with its own ideals and points of reference loves to expand its own box, but will >never give up control willingly. It fears losing control. So many love to watch and hear the masters tell >stories of how you can manipulate time and space, but will never cross a line that might threaten anything >they are attached to.
Well this is the first time I've ever heard of such a thing from an entity!

Are you saying that universe is built in a way that you're either a God stuck in time and space or a time traveller without control? Scientists should hook you up to an fMRI when you're doing that!

>own ignorance. Their inability to change things because of the beliefs in their own limitations and liabilities.

To change what things? You mean the ultimate yogic abilities?

>>It doesn't surprise me if one eventually could, after becoming open to such a phenomenon, learn to live >>between the supposed realities. Yet I would think such a state be vulnerable to noise and other stimuli; >>how could think straight in there, without accidentally imagining a tiger next to you and then trying to will >>it away and not panicking.
>You imagine the idea and you also break it down through your own beliefs in limitation.
Yes, I'm getting the hang of this...

>>Have any Indians, let alone westerners documented the "changing body size by will" etc. one of the >>highest forms of mind over matter... I read that some yogis capable of that might still be alive.
>The bigger question would be, would you believe it if you read it?

I wouldn't if it was by an unreputable paper. It would take a lot of effort to verify any extraordinary claims. Why don't these people show up on my door and demonstrate their abilities? Because they are too busy in their own thing?

>The bible makes reference to Jesus walking on water and raising the dead, saying, "these things I do are >not of my own will, and these things that I do you can do and even greater things."

Can you do either one?

>Have you read "The life and Teachings of the Masters of the Far East" by Baird T. Spalding? It is, according >to its claims, the story of a scientific team that traveled into the East and spent several years with spiritual >masters. Baird Spalding spent years afterwards lecturing about the reality of God within the individual and >the mastery within all of us and how simple it is to achieve if one really desires to know it above and >beyond the beliefs in human frailty and limitation.

I haven't. I welcome books about this stuff with a western point of view.

And thank you for your input, LD. It is appreciated.

A DREAM REALIZED
By the way, since the first Sunday of January, my wife, Jean, and I have been part of a new congregation of the United Church of Canada. It is called Pathways, and is sponsored by the York Presbytery of the UC. Check out http://www.progressivechristianity.ca/

Since we both re-directed--I do not like the term, retired--in 1994, both of us have dreamed of such a movement. We even thought of starting one, ourselves. Now we do not have to...

THANK YOU, JOHN SHELBY SPONG, and others, such as Marcus Borg (Book: The God We Never Knew, and others).
Pathways is connected to other the progressive Christianity movements throughout the world, including that under the leadership of the Episcopalian Bishop, John Shelby Spong, who is the recently retired Episcopalian bishop of New Jersey. I have met with and conversed with JSS, more than once, at gatherings in Toronto.

ATHEISTS, AGNOSTICS, WHOEVER, WELCOME!
To be a member of Pathways there is one requirement: Be willing to desire, and do your best to be, a decent, open-minded, totally-inclusive and loving human being. If you have any difficulty, let us know. We promise to see what we can do, with your permission, to help you. If we disagree, let us do so, agreeably.

Spirituality is a personal connection to the source of all things, which is of itself stable and unchanging. However spirituality is also a term given to that same relationship which is filtered through changiong personal belief systems.
On the evolutionary path of Spiritual experience there is only one thing that doesn't change. The experience of that is relative to the awareness of time and place.

Only one way to know.. Get there. If you want to know how, it's simply a matter of choice.
If the intellect is sufficiently elevated above and beyond the illusions of the ego yes it can clarify reality.

What is scary about it?

No I'm saying that the universe is ultimately flexible to allow you to experience whatever you put your attention on. You are neither stuck or out of control if your experiences are constantly changing along with your thoughts and desires. You may only be disconnected from the reality that you are the creator creating an experience of yourself.


No the awareness of your infinite potential. Yogic abilities a label like supernatural abilities or superhuman abilities or anything that doesn't fit into the current box of beliefs and ideas are words that represent ideas that exceed ones capacity in experience and understanding.



If you know something that another doesn't do you make a point of taking it to others so that they will know it? What would determine to you whether they would be interested or inclined to take it in as part of their universe as you would? Would you become the authority for another so that they would believe and listen to you or would those others find their own interest in what you know in their own time?
What is it that you look for to give another the authority over your present experience of life so that you will say to yourself my experience is incomplete and now I believe what the authority says and will include it in my own repetoire of conscious thought so that it will become my own experience?

There is a saying, "the heart knows no reason" and in that we all have experiences of doing something we would intellectually say makes no sense. Yet in the nonsense there is perfect sense. Will you let others determine your destiny and your beliefs?

Whether I can or can't isn't the deciding factor in the reality of Truth, or your capacity to believe whether these things are possible. You already know inside whether these things are true, you haven't taken it seriously enough to establish a connection to its reality.

I think you would like the books then if you really mean what you say.

Joesus,

Does this panel above mean anything to you?

I include the link as well to the subject of "heart" wisdom?

link fixed

Your link has two http//'s in the address so I had to fix the address to see what it was, and after looking at the plate and then reading the link I think my answer might be a bit subjective.
However I saw in the upper part a school and in the lower, aspects of the Self leading the aspirant/self through lessons of measure and experience. In what the link describes as the afterlife where the God sits on his throne, my first impression was of a King/God or a master. Where the God that looks like Horace is gesturing, my thought was that he was offering the seat to the student of life in gaining Self mastery.

So I'd say yes it symbolizes the evolution of Man in experience and knowledge.
What I know of the Egyptions is that they, like the Atlanteans, were strongly connected to the teaching and living of Self Mastery. In fact the Egyptians were the same race of people that lived in Atlantis before it was destroyed.

The afterlife that the Egyptians believed in was not one of a physical death but the death of the ego.

Joesus, do you have an ego? Do you believe the ego has a useful function? Why does the ego predominate in today's society?

What about the heart and the feather any thoughts there?

Joesus writes: In the spirit of dialogue and questioning, I like it.

THE INAUGURAL MEETING WAS HELD AT THE MARKHAM THEATRE, DECEMBER 12
I just came from the Palm Sunday sacred meeting of the new Pathways Congregation, which, while respecting the great traditions, espouses a modern, progressive and all-inclusinve interpretation of the Christian Gospel. It is very interesting being in on the beginning of a new congregation which is now going through its gestation period. The Markham congregation began meeting at a golf course, January, 2006.

Check out http://www.progressivechristianity.ca/ccpc/articles.aspx

Interestingly, this is the second time my wife, Jean and I have been through this experience. My first experience was in 1953/54 when, at 23, fresh out of divinity school in Halifax, NS, I was appointed, by the Newfoundland Conference of the United Church of Canada, as the first UC minister in the then squatter's town of Happy Valley, near the Goose Bay Airbase, Goose Bay, Labrador:
http://www.roads.gov.nl.ca/cameras/happyvalleygoosebay.stm
Amazingly, if you look at the current picture on the first page of the above site you will not that there is no snow on the road at this time. Today, the temperature, when I checked, was 38 degrees F, or 4 Celsius, where 0 is the freezing point of water. Believe it or not, I am in touch with a retired UC minister who has chosent to retire there. He now operates an organic farm.

The following site is about the community of Happy Valley-Goose Bay, which is now over 10,000 people.
http://www.happyvalley-goosebay.com/comprof.htm

To get to Goose Bay in July, 1953, my wife and I took a plane--I remember it was a WW 2 DC 3. We flew from Moncton, New Brunswick, over Anticosti Island, northern Quebec. It was a three-hour flight. The weather was excellent.

On a beautifully warm July day, about 11:00 AM, we landed on the Canadian part --the larger part, built and used by the Americans since 1943--of the base where we were met by the Protestant base padre, Padre Phil Ross--a UC minister. He took us to his home for lunch. It was our first experience eating wild goose. Interesting and enjoyable. Both he and his wife came across as warm personalities.

During lunch Padre Ross said,
Much later, from a book written by a friend and a second cousin, the Rev. Dr. Hector Swain, I found out the following: the Rev. Lester Burry (1898--1977).
http://friendsofsafeharbour.org/revlesterburry.htm
After his graduation from Mount Allison University (BA in arts and theology, 1924) http://www.mta.ca

Padre Ross told me:

SIR WILFRED GRENFELL--Labrador doctor and missionary
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilfred_Grenfell

Following lunch, our host took us to "Happy" Valley. The trip was about six miles along a twisty, bumpy, sandy, tree-lined--mostly dark slim spruce--road. Except for the Grenfell Mission Station, and the one United-Church-owned-and-operated school--not far from where we stopped and were to stay, had the appearance of a shack town. The church was a shack. I later discovered that the community of about 115 families--living in reasonably-sized lots along the single road not far from the edge of the Hamilton river--had already been up rooted from homes they had built too close, according to the authorities, to the base.

By the way, none of the above--and the reason for this is a story in itself-- had been revealed to us prior to our appointment to this mission. Looking back, it seems as if we were was part of a "mission impossible".

We also soon discovered that, just prior to our arrival, the community--made up of about fifty per cent United Church, twenty five per cent Anglican, and twenty five per cent Moravian (See the site http://www.mun.ca/rels/morav/morav.html )
had gone through a crisis. A failed attempt was made, by an independent group of Christian fundamentalists, one with a strict Pentecostal theology, to build what their leader, the Rev. Paul MacKinney (now deceased)--an American originating out of Chicago--told them was the one and only true church of God. I found out later that, originally, the Rev. MacKinney offered to cooperate with the UC and lead the people in building a truly united and community church. This did NOT happen.

Without going into the details of what did happen: By the time we arrived, only about fifteen families supported the Rev. MacKinney, his family and his ministry. One hundred families chose not to go to the so-called community church.

It soon became clear to me that the UC missionary, The Rev. Lester Burry, responsible to the UC for all Labrador at the time, without disclosing to me what he actually had in mind, had engineered that I be assigned to assist him in trying to prevent the take-over, by the Rev. Paul MacKinney, and the fifteen families who had left their original churches to follow him, of the one church property in the community.

In my next post I will outline what happened next. What I did caused one of the fundamentalist leaders to become so angry that, publically, he threatened violence.

THE CHURCHES IN NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR
http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~hrollman/ Very interesting to history buffs.

Yes I have an ego.
Yes the ego fulfills a function, whether it is useful depends on whether it is the servant or the master.
The ego is what connects the relative to the absolute, the manifest to the unmanifest, but if the the awareness is not conscious of itself then the ego often believes itself to be more real than the consciousness that created it.

Why does the ego predominate? Because one chooses to let it.



Ya know there is a story that I read once about the crash at Roswell. Interestingly enough the myths that are passed through history often tell the story of spiritual visions, like the Gods of the ancient greeks and those of the Far East. The stories come from Teachers who cognize the images of certain Gods which represent in the manifest fragments of the Self.
Anyway this story about Roswell was told by a supposed grandson of a native American Indian who with a few of his spiritual buddies were on a vision quest in the desert when the crash at roswell occurred.
You can take it or leave it but I'll try and give you the readers digest version of it.

A small group of Indians were camped in the desert when a space ship crashed in the desert a few miles from their camp. They got to the crash site before the Army arrived and pulled a survivor from the crash. There were 4 on the ship, 2 were dead one dying and the other injured. They took the injured alien back to the camp where they waited for it to gain some strength and then took it back to their homes where the alien recovered enough to tell them his version of the history of the Universe.
He was one of 4 groups of huamnoid beings that had developed in the known Universe. The 4 known races evolved from reptiles, Insects, birds and mammals. As each species evolved in technology and developed space travel they finally encountered one another to share science and religion. Having shared their technology they often traded other things that were unique to each race. Some of the things they all used in the manufacture of their technology were certain elements that were short in supply to their own planets and so they often mined minerals in different planets and anyplace in the galaxy that was abundant was like the oil fields in the middle east. Whoever had access to the richest sources would seem to have the upper hand.
They developed the ability to jump through space using worm holes that exist like rivers in space. Our galaxy happens to be on one end of one of these worm holes and earth abundant in the minerals that they need to feed their technology. At the time that they discovered this planet it was inhabited by lower species of life than the humans that we know of.
Of the 4 species in the universe the huanoids that evolved from the reptiles and the mammals were the most aggresive followed by the ones who evolved from the insects and the Bird race were more spiritual in nature and more dedicated to advancement of spirituality than technology but had developed their own technology that was extremely advanced, in fact advanced enough to manipulate DNA in most species of life both animal and vegetable.
With the help of this technology the more aggressive species crossed DNA with their own races and the existing primates on Earth to create a labor force to mine the minerals in the planet. The idea was to create a mindless force that could be easily manipulated and wouldn't cause any trouble.
The Race that had evolved from the Birds had without the knowledge of the higher ups in the more aggressive races slipped a few DNA molecules of their own to give the humans the ability to think and feel beyond the projected levels needed for a mindless work force.
The Alien that told the story referred to this as the gift of the feather which connects the heart to its source.
The story went on to describe how they have been coming back to observe the spiritual evolution of the species as well as the pending interest in certain resources, and a galactic war between the 4 species over control of a shrinking universe etc.etc.

Anyway the question about the heart and the feather sparked the memory of the story, and thinking that the feather is also symbolic to a freedom from the burden of certain boundaries, and pictured together with the heart would only make sense even in light of Myth and Legends surrounding spiritual paths of Human origin, or those closer to what we might attach to our own history.

Interesting that I remembered that story...

Guests writes: "Interesting that I remembered that story..."

Go on, Guest! Please explain: Why do you find that you remembered that story "interesting"?

maybe it's time for some of us to clear the muddy water.

What are people's thoughts on individuation and its relation to self-realization and self-actualization? What are people's thoughts on the distinction between self-realization and self-actualization? What are people's thoughts on integrating spiritual insights into everyday Western life? Any thoughts on spiritual bypassing, on using spiritual practice to covertly reinforce the ego and destructive psychological structures and habits?

Guest replies: Who wants to know..and why?


There is still only ONE consciousness, regardless of the images that create the illusions of individuality.
If you have one or more thoughts, they still originate in the same place, where they go is by intention but they still are not of themselves self created. Realizing the Self which has created them puts everything into a greater perspective. If in self actualization you mean to bring out the pure potential of the Self into creation then that has already been accomplished in the manifest reality of all things. If you are to define self actualization in the fantasy of the miracle power within personal control then you are still putting that reality into a perspective of the ego rather than in the pure surrender of the ego/self to the greater universal mind or Consciousness Waking up doesn't change anything other than the perceptions of reality. What exists still is what it is, or isn't. Self Actualization is a term that is twisted by the perceptions of individuality to elevate the concepts of what would happen if this were to change. What most don't realize is that consciousness is always in charge and if anything is to be different in Self realization it is in the awareness of reality rather than changing reality.
The perception of change occurs in the greater understanding and expanding of the vision in what already exists. If you want to change your life there won't be anything that stops you.
This is probably the most sensitive of subjects. Having a Teacher who has him/herself stepped through the veils of ignorance and the subtle tricks of the ego is vital in the process of Self Mastery.
The blind spots of ignorance are self created through beliefs and beliefs don't just go away without the experience of something greater.
Generally speaking a peak experience or a revelation can trigger the impulse to seek greater understanding but those that do it on their own don't go as far as those that seek the advice of one who has gone there. It is possible to learn brain surgery on ones own but I wouldn't want one of those who has, to operate on me. I'd rather have someone who has left their own pride aside to surrender themselves to the instruction of someone who has taken the time themselves to master the art through the passing on of generations of learning that has in its course improved on what works and tossed that which doesn't.
Hit or miss attempts at self mastery take lifetimes of trial and error, self created ideas are often just the rearraning of the same things that fit into the box of individuality.

so do you see no role for personality, Joesus? Are you elevating the impersonal above the personal, or do you believe both are important to recognize and develop?

Individuation does not imply anything less or more than one consciousness; it is about how consciousness expresses itself and is aware of itself.

Joesus, do you believe you have blind spots? What can you do about these?

Even the greatest teachers have their blind spots and often fall prey to illusions of grandiosity and elevation of ego, even while believing themselves egoless. How do we recognize this in ourselves, or must we wait to hear it from others?

I have heard of spiritual retreats where the students and teacher unwittenly fall into a child/parent relationship with the students vying for the teachers approval. No doubt many found it an enlightening experience. The conscious mind excels at story-telling and fantasy like nothing else.

We may have enlightening experiences, whilst the rest of our psyche has defects unbeknownst to us until they are triggered in everyday life. The experience of enlightenment does not imply it can in any way be integrated into everyday life. In other words, self-realization (the experience of enlightenment) does not imply self-actualization (the integration of enlightenment into everyday life and throughout one's psyche and being).

To what extent do people misinterpret the scriptures on enlightenment to reinforce pre-existent schizoid and anti-social behavior? Probably many in the West do. The East does not have this problem because the notion of individuality and self-expression (and creativity) is quite foreign to them. It is easier for people in the East to think like a collective. Individuality is elevated in the West. So we should be using caution when applying Eastern standards to Westernized individuals.

The personal only exists when the ego believes it is in control or the master. The personal is created from the impersonal by the awareness following a thought into greater and greater density. If you follow each and every thought back to its source you will find that they all come from the same place. Trying to develop the personal only takes the awareness away from the source and puts it on an object of thought.
Like building a house and saying that is me. The awareness entertains itself in the thought temporarily untill it decays and falls away and then you have to create something else to try and entertain yoursel with and call real until it too falls away into decay and lack of interest.


individuation is not how consciousness expresses itself, it is one way it experiences itself. How it expresses itself is how awareness moves from a platform of potential, without boundaries and limitations. Individuality is limited within the sope of beliefs, that are constantly changing. Consciousness doesn't change, it only appears to change through lesser believes in individual perceptions of limitations in beliefs of reality.
A Conscious person who knows of Consciousness knows of the expression of thoughts but they also know there is no lasting or permanent manifestation of consciousness in individuality.
So if it's about how consciousness expresses itself it has nothing to do with giving attention to individuality.

What you focus on grows. looking for problems to fix only makes whatever you believe to be a problem real. The mind is a very powerful thing and it amplifies what you put your attention on. If you want to know the absolute consciousness then focus on that rather than the problems. Any blind spot or dark corner gets erased by the expansion of light as it fills all corners of darkness and shadows of beliefs.

You speaking from personal experience or horror stories from the paranoid? Do you have a friend that you trust to tell you what he/she thinks? Would you make yourself vulnerable to subjective and objective critcism? Or will you through your own protective mechanisms decide what and when you will open yourself to receive out of your own fear of being damaged?

I'd say the unconscious mind excels in fantasy and paranoia.
Sometimes it serves a student to allow him/her to project their greatest illusions onto the teacher but I know of no conscious Teacher who will fall into the fantasy.
There are a lot of egos out there who would like to tell you they are enlightened.

Enlightenment like the absolute is relative to the subjective and objective experience. If it is permanent and stable it stayes with you in all experiences. Enlightenment is a lifetime commitment. If you are like many I know who are disgruntled because they have found no instant gratifying technique, path or experience it may be because you are not willing to change your point of reference.


If you look at the present condition of India I think you'll find that even in humilty, ignorance is still ignorance and creates more ignorance and suffering.
Truth is Truth be it Eastern or Western if one is ripe and willing then whatever method resonates will work.
You are suggesting that Truth will work if it is applied correctly, which is somewhat correct but there is a piece of scripture that contains an important truth.

Mt 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

You can preach the truth to the holy roof tops as loud as you want but to deaf ears no truth is going to be heard. More often it will be thrown back in your face because most are simply not interested.
If you can familiarize yourself with both Western and Eastern Teachings you will find that they both say the same thing. You may find it useful if someone wants to ask you which you prefer.

Personally I can't seem to make up my mind which I like better, Truth or Truth...

Joesus, if you discredit the "personal", then what role, if any, do interpersonal relationships play for you?

If you get up in front of a crowd of people to deliver an important speech, and you stammer or fidgit due to nervousness, is this because you are any less enlightened, or is it because you have not fully integrated your self-realizations into every aspect of your life and being?

Have your self-realizations and enlightenment countered all your negative conditionings and habits? If not, why not?

The blind-spots are real, and pretending they do not exist does not solve the problem. Neither should we be creating problems where none exist, but should be receptive and open to our flaws and areas of our psyche that have not been transformed by our realizations.

I do not necessarily agree that the personal implies ego. In the state of enlightenment, there is no-one, but this does not imply impersonality if we take personality (beyond the typical definition of personality) as a very real expression of the absolute, as its evolution and development, and not subordinate to it. In other words, you elevate the source above the forms, but they are both important since one without the other is only part of the picture.

I'm not discrediting anything. simply calling a spade a spade.

Fear is a belief in separation

There is a saying: "before enlightenment chop wood carry water, after enlightenment, chop wood carry water.
What one man might think as negative another might see as the impetus for evolution, to seek something greater in experience and understanding.
Have all of my boogeymen under the bed dissappeared and have I grown up?
Growth is a constant and there is no end. My point of reference is stable.
As long as I play within the realm of the human experience I will feel every human emotion, and experience the human experience but like a child that grows into the adult, the child must die for the adult to be born and so must the personal die in the belief that the ego is real and the master to experience the greater consciousness

They are real because you make them real.
By focussing on the absolute True reality there is no denying of anything, only the observing of those lesser things that come up to the surface, like fear, prejudice, hatred, sickness and death. The shadows are brought into the light where they are efforlessly released in the light of a greater truth. There is less stress to the nervous system when you are not seeking that which is wrong with you but what is Truth in and of you.



Developing any system of measure is relative to the personal. Create any system that you wish for as long as you wish. The fact of the matter is that it will change with your beliefs and experiences. If you give your attention to the absolute, everything stays within the clear perspective of reality and there is no need to divide or add or explain anything, only the expression or movement of consciousness. You will have to surrender to it eventually. Until then your mind will seek its safety in an explaination of the universe and itself.
But you are correct. Within the relative boundaries of conditions terms and definitions all things are included in the realm of the Self/Consciousness.
The thing is, the ego can get very enlightened and complacent in its definitions of reality and establish a very comfortable home in the intellectual approach to enlightenment.
The New age movement is all about knowing the truth but it still is founded in conditions.
You can speak all you want about the truth and still carry judgment about the world and what is in it.
Very few are willing to give up their beliefs and their definitions to focus on something greater than the meager lifetime they believe is so real. They think it is just as real or more real than the infinite now.
Too bad. One can have it all, and all they have to do is to be willing to give it all up and surrender it to a greater experience.

I had a teacher who described it like this:
You got the finger on the remote control and its the same channel as your parents and their parents watched, in fact your whole ancestral tree watched the same channel and they all died. You think to yourself,"Ithink I'll watch it too because I believe something different will happen to me."

It doesn't just signify the actions, it signifies the intelelctual reasoning that everything that you sense feel and touch is real so that there is no reason to give your attention to anything else because this is what is real and this is what you can feel, see and touch.
It's why so many people refuse to believe in a God. Because if God really existed he'd/she'd/it'd come and show himself/herself/itself etc.
A dog can hear a frequency that a human ear can't.
A conscious mind can hear, see and feel things that subjectively and objectively someone who puts all their attention in their personal feelings, fears and desires can't, because their mind is full of thoughts. 100,000 of them and they think them over and over again daily.

You can focus on anything that you want to. Give the ego and inch and it will take you into the grave as soon as it can so you don't have a chance to take its illusions away from it.

I enjoy reading your posts, Joesus, even when I don't agree with what you say.

It's one of those things you can be presented with in life and it becomes puzzling. Set my mind to thinking.

If one thought the gravity of the situation as an weighted assign heart value, had a balance relation to the spiritual truths, then in a way, the weighted heart might overtake the weight of the truth values we can have?

So in a sense, muddy and fog, as the emotive understanding can grow to clear, by us understanding the induced memories we create? Then the lesson in life I thought, is to see what the truth is, in relation to the feather?

How the emphemeral qualites there are to mind, that together with emotions, truthful qualities are realized to our existance? Working in the emotive realms then becomes clear and understanding about the weight of life, understood better? Allows us to develope further out, and balanced intellectually?

Just a thought If something was ever planted then it would have been the ability to discern, and adapt accordingly?

Yes, so how would you find the balance, or establish a point of reference in knowing non attachment and non grasping so as to witness life unfold as the creator, rather than be a victim to it?


Everyone has to find themselves through their own experience. Whether you agree with mine is not important, but if in recognizing that you are creating me and mine to recognize the judgments that are buried inside of you so that you can develop a greater relationship between you and your world then it serves its purpose in pointing you back to your own origins and waking you to being the creator of it all..

That there is a continuity and flow, from the inside/out and back again? We already understand this interchangeability, do we not about energy and matter? That even though "the home" is where the heart is, we can still be free, to roam?

There is always conclusiveness about matter states. Hard to change that ,yet if we knew that we can be quite flexible and change our attitudes, such matters states, can elevated in those emphemeral qualities of mind this could change the way we see life maybe?

Allow us to move freer, knowing we had some ability to change our reality?

There is only One unchanging absolute. The appearances and experiences change as we elevate the intellect and the senses through the manifestation of the creator re-creating itself in our conscious awareness as it expands.

When we follow a set of beliefs then awareness cycles itself in and out of a box temporarily rearranging the known.
When the awareness is on the absolute we experience the creation of thought made manifest, witnessing thought not as ourselves or as ourselves being the thought but ourselves witnessing the thought giving insight to a greater Self than the thoughts and the experience.
Matter is arranged within the limits of belief. Natural laws are created to maintain limits of belief otherwise one experience would bleed into another and nothing would appear in what is experienced as form. But consciousness is not bound by any law or form or belief.

So how is this different from pantheism? This "All is One, One is All" does not seem a matter of contention because it does not communicate anything very informative and seems to be as useful and informative as saying "All is MUHAHA, MUHAHA is All". In the end, it amounts to a statement practically devoid of content. Do you think starving children in Africa give a rat's ass that All is One? Do you give a rat's ass about other people in desperate need of basic necessities like food and shelter? If so, then why aren't you there helping them and doing something to make the world a better place instead of handing out truisms?

Joesus, you can believe whatever you want, but unless your beliefs bear fruit in action, then they are worthless fantasy. Unless your beliefs completely tranform your being and psyche throughout, and this transformation is manifest in all of your behavior and actions, then they are worthless lies. That is the simple truth behind the statement " You will know them by their works ", and allows us to distinguish empty words and recited lines from the individuals who manifest and actualize them throughout their being and behavior. Unless your beliefs transform you in such a way, they are worthless.

I'm not sure if this was your intention, but your beliefs would seem to justify escaping from the responsibilities of the time granted us.

Do you have no purpose or calling to your life?

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

I can still count on the fingers of my hand how often this conversation has come up, so I guess it's still relevant.
So what is the purpose of life? Is it to feed the starving children in Africa? Who shall be the judge and who shall determine the destiny of men. Shall you be a fisher of men or a fisherman.
I don't know how familiar you are with the whole bible story but since you want to quote Matthew and his recollection of Jesus during this particular discourse to the disciples.
He began verse 7 with
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

But back in verse 6 he says:

22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. The light is God/The One unmutable/Transcendant Consciousness

23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
This is similar to the fruit of the tree of knowledge. The ego and duality

24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
When you separate God and creation you will see them both differently. By serving God in a form and idea differently you will see everything that is in creation as it is judged within the interpretations of your own beliefs of reality

25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
So much for the starving people in Africa

26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

Now he is beginning to point in the direction of Truth and tow what the mind shall be focussed on so that the body shall follow and therefore the fruits of focus shall be in the awareness of truth for all that is manifest is of the one consciousness.



Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Once you are established in the light of truth you are automatically aligned in service to all of humanity. to be a fisher of men rather than a fisherman who believes in evil and injustice. ye shall cast no pearls before swine and ye shall lift up those who are ready to bear witness to the One. to put into bible type speech.

My purpose is in surrender to God and service to the evolution of humanity.
My experience has changed my life and my experience and actions have helped others to see possibilities and changes within themselves but I don't measure my worth by the things that I do, but recognize it in the things that open my awareness into greater vision of the Truth

Sounds okay to me. Now how does one make this happen on a day by day basis?

Surrendering to God in service: to surrender all thought feeling and action to the absolute. Give it all back to the place from which it came. I am, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end, where it starts it ends. God is the motion which arises from the absolute stillness.

How do you do that? In union with all things there is no separation of the unmanifest and the manifest. In knowing the absolute, one must make the eye single, by taking the mind inward to the stillness of the absolute. Once one does this with regularity the mind effortlessly stays there in its awareness then bringing it to the surface in the perception of activity through action the two join themselves together in both awareness and experience. Through discipline of prayer/meditation one begins to witness the Self in the changing subjective and objective experiences.

Each state of consciousness is distinct subjectively and objectively. The inner experience and the metabolic rate are different in Waking, Dreaming, Sleeping and transcended awareness.

Waking is characterized by mental alertness and high physical activity.

Sleeping is characterized by no mental alertness but deep rest.

Dreaming is much more physically active than Sleeping, although the activity is slightly less than during the Waking State.

Transcended awareness in meditation or deep prayer is the fourth major state of consciousness. It is similar to sleep in that the rest is very deep, but the mind remains awake and alert. Sometimes it is called, 'the missing state of consciousness,' for everyone has certain gaps in their circadian rhythms when the body attempts to settle down into the deep rest of the absolute. The afternoon nap is a modern holdover of this unfulfilled longing. What do most people do to fulfill it? Have a cup of coffee or a cigarette. But that, of course, is not what the body is missing.

In the ancient literature of the East, transcended awarenesss through meitation/prayer is simply called 'Turiya' which means, 'The Fourth.' It is also called Samadhi in India and Satori in Japan. In the West, it has been called the 'peace which passes understanding,' because the mind and intellect cannot fully describe the experience of transcended awareness -- it's beyond all words, beyond all thought. Whatever it's called, however, the experience is the same. Ever since the human being has existed, there has always been the ability to experience the Absolute spontaneously. The subjective experience of expansion of consciousness and the objective experience of deep rest are the same for all, regardless of age, belief system or any other external criteria."


The cycle of rest is like this: the body is most active in the waking state, less active in dreaming, less active in sleep and least active in the transcendant awareness of meditation/prayer.
The cycle of alertness is the opposite: the alertness is least in sleep, slightly more in dreaming, slightly more in the waking state, and most in the Transcended awareness of medititation/prayer. So we could say that the awareness reached in meditation/prayer is both the Source and the Goal of the other states of consciousness: the rest is deepest and the alertness is the greatest. The Ascended conscious awareness thru the process of meditation/prayer underlies or permeates the other states of consciousness.



Meditation/prayer is characterized by deep rest, deeper than sleep and mental alertness. Associated with this experience is a very high degree of orderliness in brain wave patterns. Normally, the experience of brain waves is that of incoherence.
Scientists measure the brain waves by attaching electroencephalographic leads to the left and right hemispheres, on the parietal, occipital and temporal lobes. The measurement of the waking state is quite chaotic: no two parts of the brain are producing the same wave patterns at any given time.
"In contrast to this, during meditation/prayer, the entire surface of the cortex becomes completely coherent. This is the best objective measurement we have for the Peak Experience described by Abraham Maslow and is found even the first time someone reaches the expanded state of meditation.
This kind of brain wave activity is also found in small infants when they are nursing and in pets when they are being petted. It is a measurement of deep inner peace. Experiencing this even once can lead to tremendous healing power; it can permanently transform the life.
"The mind is very like a pond. When we drop in a whole handful of pebbles, the surface of the water becomes very choppy. This is like the 100,000 thoughts a day we normally think. When we drop in one pebble at a time, the water becomes very orderly; perfectly coherent ripples spread across the surface of the pond. When we drop one thought at a time into the mind, the mind becomes very orderly. This is the result of conscious thought, in meditation."


The pure experience of the Absolute occurs when the all thought has faded away in the process of correct meditation, awareness is left experiencing itself. This experience is usually at first short and intermittent, but with practice it comes to be lived for longer and longer periods of time, because it is so very attractive to the mind and enjoyable to the body."

In olden times, cloth was died by dipping the cloth into the dye and then letting it fade in the sun. Someone might complain, 'I wanted bright yellow! Look how faint is the color!' But the wise dyer knows that it is by fading the cloth in the sunlight that the color becomes fast. By decreasing the color, the color becomes permanent. Similarly with expansion of consciousness. The mind expands with meditation and then contracts with activity. It is by the process of expanding and contracting, expanding and contracting, that the mind becomes permanently expanded. This means that sitting and meditating continually is not the key for fastest growth. Fastest growth occurs when one alternates meditation with activity. Regular practice and regular activity together make the master key that unlocks the Door of Everything." Other examples: stretching a spring or a rubber band. The experience of the absolute grows into all the other states of consciousness.

What happens is that the state of inner silence, of coherence of thought, is so attractive to the mind that the mind holds onto it for longer and longer periods of time. The absolute is no longer experienced just with the eyes closed, while one is meditating; the absolute is dragged out from its transcended reclusive status and begins to be lived on the surface of everything."
What is being created is a fifth major state of consciousness, unlike waking, dreaming, sleeping or the Fourth, transcended awareness.
To be defined as a major state of consciousness, not just an altered state such as one produced by hypnosis or day-dreaming, a state of consciousness must be subjectively and objectively distinct from the other major states of consciousness.
The objective experience is that the brain becomes very still and quiet continually -- the state of coherence of brain waves is no longer found just during meditation but all the time, twenty-four hours a day. Because of this, the efficiency of the style of functioning of the body is so much greater, health is naturally maximal and the need for rest is dramatically decreased. The body is running with super-oil bathing its cylinders -- the wear and tear on vital bodily organs dramatically decreases as the mind functions with maximum efficiency.
The subjective experience of this fifth state is that the awareness of the Unbounded, of the absolute, is being lived along with waking, dreaming and sleeping. This is a permanent state of witnessing consciousness, where it feels as if you are watching yourself do everything: see, touch, hear, think, act, dream, sleep.
This is a very distinct experience, very concrete, very real. This state has been called different things in different parts of the world. In our Christian tradition, it is called, 'Praying without ceasing.' Praying without ceasing is impossible without establishing this fifth state of consciousness -- the mind is always wandering until the mind has permanent stability in Infinite Awareness. In India, it is called 'Nirvikalpa Samadhi' -- permanent or unchanging awareness of the absolute. We can call it enlightenment, for the fifth state means that your awareness is continually open to the light of infinite consciousness. It is sometimes called, 'Cosmic Consciousness,' for Cosmic means all-inclusive, and what the fifth states means is that the fourth state, expanded ascended Consciousness, has become so permanent in the mind that it is lived along with Waking, Dreaming and Sleeping. But Patanjali/Govindra Yogindra called it, 'Perpetual Consciousness,' for the experience is perpetual, permanent, never lost.

This state could be called the beginning of human life, for in this state, life is lived completely in the Now. No longer are we subjected to the old belief systems and habits, acquired through our unfortunate experiences since birth or from our parents' wishes or society's desires or from the collective hypnosis of our cultural conditioning. This is Freedom. This is what human life was meant to be. This is the beginning of truly human life. And it develops so very quickly! It took so long to stress the body and addict the mind to destructive habits. But it takes such a short time to free the life from the past, from worry for the future, to establish Perpetual Consciousness and live life fully Here and Now. This is joy. This state means that we are no longer victims of our past or of others' beliefs or desires; we are completely free to choose exactly how we want life to develop and grow.

As this expanded awareness grows into exalted perception and Union all thought feeling and action is realized as being that of the creator, one naturally lives in the now without projecting stress of belief and fear of failure into experience. The mind in its transcended state is flowing with the river rather than grasping at the brambles and branches of the shoreline in its flow towards the ocean of complete fulfillment. One learns to trust completely that all action is cosmically directed in Ascending thoughts and waves of unconditional love of the One God and creator, and one surrenders every thought feeling and action in Union with God, in the service to humanity, as a living example of Truth.
"Thou art that" a statement of truth, also called a "shruti" in sanskrit, pointing all things to being one with God.


You do not have to live up to anyones expectations. Jesus didn't always do what the people expected of him, to take away their choicess in perception of reality and belief. to conquer their enemies and fears, but he did live as an example.
He said "I am the way and the life" and he showed them how to live life also saying, "these things I do, I do not of myself" He also said "of these things I do ye shall do greater things than these" leaving humanity a bone, to lead it to greater awareness through Self enquiry.

Even if this is spoken, the tangible is still far from understood, so one has to grasp for the deeper meaning.

For instance, this flowing from the one state to another and back and forth, comparisons are made in my mind as to what this absolute is. So I might construct an analogy to help awareness proceed deeper into the meanings by adopting models for consideration,. YOu say, only "one" absolute, while my words may contan the ambiguities, there is still the desire to know that voice may contain the deepr source of expression, so I looked for it.

So from this, and all life may issue from it, what is the most symmetrical state in existance? Some had the "nothing" is the absolute, yet I find ths hard to comprehend this "nothing." It made more sense that all life could issue from something, the absolute, being the source, how might it be described?

Let's call it a harmonic oscillator, where from the absolute, the basis of expression is the signature defined in this harmonic oscillator( the basis for all vibration arises). You might call it one more belief, yet, by it's very nature I am from the source? The ocean of possibiites?

Joesus writes The challenge, IMHO, which we need to overcome, it seems to me, is the tendency for our ego to resist . For whatever reason, it does not willingly want to tune in to the universal vibration.

No it can't remain in its intellectual supremecy if everything that has been accumulated in building a relationship with its independance is destroyed in the greater understanding that beliefs are created by grouping identifications of this is this and that is that. If there is intellectual doubt and no awareness of the living faith that connects one to a greater being than the one perceived through building on the past information, then fear takes over and the mind shuts down.

It rationalizes its beingness within the constructs of the perception of the senses. The fear it lives on to protect itself is that it stays away from anything that is not directly experienced and then fit into the groupings of the past impulses. The mind and the ego gets more stubborn as innocense is lost and we get older.
This not a rule, but generally speaking there are more possibilities in the innocense of children before they are taught by adults what they can and can't do, and what is real and not real.
We are taught by those we look up to how to define life within the limits of what we can touch, hear and see. The inner senses aare ignored and they atrophy in most.

Joesus, I have taken the opportunity to summarize what I feel you are saying is the fifth level of meditation. Have I read you correctly?

Intuition, as small moments of enlightenment, also called, peak experiences?


Of course added thoughts for sure.

Have you read "The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali" which goes into the 6th and 7th states of consciousness?

which translation do you recommend, Joesus?

Have you read "The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali" which goes into the 6th and 7th states of consciousness?
[/quote] No. What kind of a read is it? Can it be easily summarized?

JOESUS, It just came to me: This was discussed by you, Feb 20, 10:56 AM, in my thread:
Experiments In Prayer/mediation (pm). Do You Find Pm Valuable? Or A Waste Of Time?
Tell us if you have done any experiments.
AND THANKS FOR THE SUMMARY YOU GAVE.

Here's a thought: Would it be possible for us to set up a thread where "keeper" quotes and references could be deposited.? It is easy to forget that we have been over that territory before. Anyone who has ever been lost in the woods, as I have been, knows the feeling. In case anyone is wondering, I did find my way out. Or did I?

BTW, for an excellent and brief summary of the story of Dr. Bucke (1837-1902), check out:
http://www.education.mcgill.ca/profs/cartw...pe650/bucke.htm
==================================================

2. At the age of 35 ("at the beginning of his 36th year" - spring of 1872) he had an illuminating, mystical experience.
1. For Bucke, illumination is the catalyst which triggers the eventual dominant form of consciousness. A single revelation is all that is necessary and the change which ensues during that few seconds, is permanent.

1. Read here what Bucke said, in the third person:

1. It was in the early spring at the beginning of his thirty-sixth year. He and two friends had spent the evening reading Wordsworth, Shelley, Keats, Browning, and especially Whitman. They parted at midnight, and he had a long drive in a hansom. ...His mind, deeply under the influence of the ideas, images, and emotions called up by reading and talk of the evening, was calm and peaceful. He was in a state of quiet, almost passive enjoyment. All at once, without warning of any kind, he found himself wrapped around as it were by a flame-coloured cloud...he knew that the light was within himself. Directly afterwards came upon him a sense of exaltation, of immense joyousness accompanied or immediately followed by an intellectual illumination quite impossible to describe... he saw and knew that the cosmos is not dead matter but a living Presence, that the soul of man is immortal, that the universe is so ordered that without any peradventure all things work together for the good of each and all, that the foundation principle of the world is what we call love and that the happiness of every one in the long run is absolutely certain.

Bucke defined Cosmic Consciousness to be a higher form of consciousness than that possessed by the ordinary man and a consciousness of the cosmos...of the life and order in the universe.

Richard Maurice Bucke and cosmic Conscousness was one of the first books that I read about almost 35 years ago. It was long ago simmilated, so I couldn' tell you much other then I question the role now that might be presented to our awareness for those developing and being responsive to intuitive moments. Or what a enlightened individaul might be after having meeting moments that may correlate to what enlghtenment might be, "more then once," for the initiated?

I'm thinking out loud.

Does such an elevation really make the individual any different remembering and being respectful, of the life they are currently living/others?

I personally don't think these constructs change in which we had to learn to use in how we assess/work life. Means, that the job is ever more difficult and the responsibility to living life ever more complicated/greater. We are now supposed to be more aware?

We now understand possibly what the emotive developement means in how we produce memory and the attitude developement granted to reacting in life ( what can be changed in the future). Yet, we are still involved in purifying these emotions, still the uneducate ruler(ego) exists, by the unleashed potentials of a mind who still sleeps, while it should be awake?

Yet, the mind has been synchronized, with the development of the lower centers and the" heart," the place where such development begins? How do all such probabilites come to mind?

We now become aware of the responsibility we have for truth to ourselves/others and the illusions we might have perpetuated? The fog and qualities of working towards a "open heart and clear mind" that may be met because of the issues we developed/developing, along in life.

Of course there could be many interpretations caused by my ambiguity of words choosen, yet, is enlightenment really ever that far away for each of us to experience? That such potentials could exist if we had thought these things not sancrosanct to mysticism alone, but is really part of developing and working responsibly, in our quest to understand life?

"Enlightenment" The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali By MSI
ISBN # 0-931783-52-6



Depends on your level of consciousness. It is layered in the depths of multidimensional reality. Read it once and you get something. Read it twice you get more, read it 3 times and you get more. Enlightenment cannot be summarized but it can be talked about and experienced.

Absloutely

Stabilizing conscious awareness requires a discipline. Choice becomes more important as one evolves because the mind is full of habits that are attached to beliefs in the reality of the world as it Had been experienced. Your thoughts when followed outward are different than when taken inward and witnessed. Trying to recapture fleeting glimpses or intuitive moments does not help stabilize or establish permanence in higher awareness. Remembering peak experiences or drawing the past memories into the present does not establish conscious awareness in the absolute.


King James Version Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

What you also understand is how you believe the world is and how you are interacting within it. You have an intellectual understanding of enlightenment and possibly a peak into some experiences. But...
You ain't there until your there.... The world looks differently to each individual who sits within the paradigms of belief and to the enlightened it is realized for what it is.

The cosmic waters of the absolute are the very fabric which the mind interprets its ideas of reality.
What you focus on grows, nothing changes if you believe it won't change, and beliefs alone will not change what you know in the layers of your mind to be true.
Enlightenment is a process of letting go of what you know by expanding the intellect with the absolute rather than facts.
This does not exclue intellectual knowledge, the mind in its habitual need for identity will need to break habit by using habit, but it must be done with wisdom and greater awareness.

By taking the mind from the surface layer of thoughts inward and below the thoughts.


It is never far away. Home is usually only in the oppoite direction that we are facing. We need only turn in that direction to begin to take the awareness in that direction and remember.