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Trip like I do
http://www.toequest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=427
Hey Hey
I've never seen a good description on how to visualise dimensions greater than 3. With the already problems of the validity of the idea of time, I realise that it would be a difficult task. Any suggestions? (And yes, I read most of the output of Kaku; and the Channel 4 series is currently being repeated).
Unknown
Marchel Duchamp's 'Nude Descending the Staircase' is a pivitol work in visual culture in the way he visualized and fused the 4th dimension of time with Euclidean 3-dimensional space.
Rick
user posted image
Nude Descening a Staircase, No. 2

QUOTE
I've never seen a good description on how to visualise dimensions greater than 3.


Don't try to visualize the unvisualizable. Our brains are built for 3D space visualization.
Unknown
Beautiful rendition indeed!
Unknown
QUOTE (Rick @ Dec 07, 11:48 AM)
Our brains are built for 3D space visualization.

or are they?
Rick
You tell me. Perhaps unknown finds it easy to visualize n-dimensional space. I have to fall back on artificial methods like using colors and other qualities to represent dimensions greater than three.
scape-god
There's an intersting story about that. I read it somewhere, I just don't remember where: It is said that the native American Indians that first saw Christopher Columbus when he arrived to the Americas didn't see the ships for days, even though the ships where anchored no more than maybe 200 yards in front of them! It was because they didn't know that ships existed. If any thing, this shows how conditioned our brain is to the reality presented to us, I think. Has any body else hear the story, or know where to find it?
Unknown
QUOTE (Unknown @ Dec 08, 03:24 PM)
QUOTE (Rick @ Dec 07, 11:48 AM)
Our brains are built for 3D space visualization.

or are they?

are brains are not built for 3D space visualization. What we see is 2D, or what some may argue is 2.5D, but certainly not 3D. Can you visualize volumetric data? No, we see 2D projections of 3D data, but cannot visualize the 3D volumetric data itself. Can you visualize the entire volume of things, such as an apple? No, we see a perspective. To see inside the apple, we must slice it, but we cannot visualize the apple in 3D, even in our mind's eye. All we see are 2D projections or perspectives of 3D, but not the 3D itself.
Unknown
maybe Rick means that we see things stereoscopically, but that doesn't imply we see things in 3D. To say we see in 3D is sloppy use of language. You can argue that our brains are built for navigating in a 3D environment, but that doesn't imply we see in 3D. I have depth perception, but cannot see in 3D. Can anyway see in 3D? Can anyway truly visualize 3D volumetric data through and through? I think not.
Rick
QUOTE (Unknown @ Dec 08, 07:32 PM)
To say we see in 3D is sloppy use of language.

The discussion is about visualization, at least my contribution to it, so it's not necessarily about optometry. It may be a rare talent, but I actually do visualize in three dimensions. It helps me with mechanical invention, for one thing. I have several mechanical patents pending and a trade secret. I also hold a patent in computer science for a sorting algorihtm, something that has nothing at all to do with spatial dimensions.
Unknown
QUOTE (scape-god @ Dec 08, 05:16 PM)
There's an intersting story about that. I read it somewhere, I just don't remember where: It is said that the native American Indians that first saw Christopher Columbus when he arrived to the Americas didn't see the ships for days, even though the ships where anchored no more than maybe 200 yards in front of them! It was because they didn't know that ships existed. If any thing, this shows how conditioned our brain is to the reality presented to us, I think. Has any body else hear the story, or know where to find it?

I think I read that somewhere in Carl Sagan's "Cosmos".
Unknown
QUOTE (Rick @ Dec 09, 07:47 AM)
I actually do visualize in three dimensions.

Now, that would be a neat trick out of the hat. I can't even tell a hollogram from the real thing.
Rick
Holograms tend to be blurry, so they generally are distinguishable from reality.
Unknown
QUOTE (Rick @ Dec 09, 07:47 AM)
QUOTE (Unknown @ Dec 08, 07:32 PM)
To say we see in 3D is sloppy use of language.

The discussion is about visualization, at least my contribution to it, so it's not necessarily about optometry. It may be a rare talent, but I actually do visualize in three dimensions. It helps me with mechanical invention, for one thing. I have several mechanical patents pending and a trade secret. I also hold a patent in computer science for a sorting algorihtm, something that has nothing at all to do with spatial dimensions.

but you can't do 3D volumetric visualization
Hey Hey
time is an illusion, but i travel through it (all three dimensions of me)
Rick
QUOTE (Unknown @ Dec 09, 06:39 PM)
but you can't do 3D volumetric visualization

Why not?
Unknown
QUOTE (Rick @ Dec 12, 01:46 PM)
QUOTE (Unknown @ Dec 09, 06:39 PM)
but you can't do 3D volumetric visualization

Why not?

because that is not the way we visually perceive the world. We perceive volumes through slices and slice planes. It is impossible to perceive the volume in it's entirety in a single mental image. Our mental thoughts and imagery are based on our senses, and our eyes use a 2D receptor array (the retina), which renders full volumetric visualization impossible.
Rick
I disagree. The brain builds solid models based on stereoscopic input. Even robots can think in 3D. I know, because I have programmed robot vision systems. It's not ones and zeroes robots are understanding: it's the volumes.
Unknown
QUOTE (Rick @ Dec 12, 02:49 PM)
I disagree. The brain builds solid models based on stereoscopic input. Even robots can think in 3D. I know, because I have programmed robot vision systems. It's not ones and zeroes robots are understanding: it's the volumes.

computing in 3D and navigating in a 3D environment are different from mentally visualizing 3D volumes in their entirety.

For example, open any book and you'll find that all figures are 2D; they may be 2D projections of 3D data, or perspective shots, but their still 2D. Our retina is a 2D sheet of photoreceptors. Yes, we see stereoscopically, which only means we see in depth, but this is not the same as volumetric visualization. We do not see 3D volumes; we only see our 2D perspectives of an arguably 3D environment.

I would challenge you to examine any 3D object and try to visualize its 3-dimensionality in it's entirety. You may try to imagine the object is partially transparent to facilitate this, but try as you might, you cannot visualize the entire 3-dimensionality of the object, since to do so would imply invariance of perspective, and we always visualize objects with some perspective, since that is the nature of our perception of objects, for better or worse.
Rick
I suppose it's depends on what one is used to. The visualizing of mathematical objects doesn't have those physical constraints. Visualizing curved space requires violating those constraints.
Hey Hey
we cannot visualise all of the surfaces of a 3D object (unless mirrors are used and this removes the visual attention from the actual object to another object - the mirror).

also, we can only see the surfaces of 3D objects. what is inside is usually hidden (unless the object is transparent, or we employ visual aids e.g. MRI, X-rays). so what we actually see is a 2D surface with perspective.
Trip like I do
I think that to visualize more than three dimensions invovles manipulation at the mental level. The ability to perveive in multi-dimensions at many levels of understanding.

Overlapping and synthesizing layers of information is the key....tuning into available frequencies of information. And being able to tap and harness the energy available on those frequencies.

....information saturation....

pointland

lineland

flatland

spaceland

?

In flatland I believe I would be a hexagon!
Unknown
QUOTE (Hey Hey @ Dec 13, 09:28 AM)
so what we actually see is a 2D surface with perspective.

To the point where even in those of us with monocular vision (due to accident of disease), our brains will find ways to enhance the visual experience from the 2 dimensional plane it is percieving. There are many one-eyed (monocular) depth perception cues that allow us to make reasonably accurate depth judgements: perspective, overlay, shadowing, aerial perspective (color of the sky), relative motion, relative size, etc.
Hey Hey
QUOTE (Unknown @ Dec 14, 06:43 PM)
our brains will find ways to enhance the visual experience

so all make believe? otherwise "War of the Worlds" actually happened.
Rick
QUOTE (Unknown @ Dec 14, 10:43 AM)
To the point where even in those of us with monocular vision (due to accident of disease), our brains will find ways to enhance the visual experience from the 2 dimensional plane it is percieving. There are many one-eyed (monocular) depth perception cues that allow us to make reasonably accurate depth judgements: perspective, overlay, shadowing, aerial perspective (color of the sky), relative motion, relative size, etc.

Watch a pigeon (and some other birds) walk sometime. It will move its head in a jerky stop-motion, in order to generate synthetic stereovision. The brain receives an image from an eye on one side of its head, and a fraction of a second later it receives another image from a point a few inches in advance along the bird's walking path. It generates 3D models of the world on both sides of its head that way. Some robots also generate stereovision with a single camera by moving it to a new position for an additional image.
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