rhymer
Mar 17, 2005, 09:10 AM
All religions have a belief in a God.
These Gods are sometimes shared between religions, sometimes private.
Do all religions also recognise the existence of a devil?
If so, is that a commonly accepted devil or a private devil?
If so, is the devil manufactured by the respective God?
Rick
Mar 17, 2005, 09:19 AM
I don't think that Budhism recognizes a monotheistic god. My religion, secular humanism, doesn't recognize a god either.
rhymer
Mar 18, 2005, 02:59 PM
Judaism, Christianity and Islam, are all monotheistic [believing in one God, who created the universe].
Hinduism, and also its offspring Buddhism, are by contrast monistic [believing that the universe and all that is in it, including God or gods, are one thing: there is no distinction between Creator and Created].
By way of contrast, many of the ancient religions (Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Vikings) were polytheistic [believing in many gods].
I'll have to search harder to find info about all those little devils!
Rick
Mar 18, 2005, 03:45 PM
When things go wrong, such as disasters, plagues, and droughts, it would seem very natural for a superstitious primitive culture to invent a willful evil supernatural entity by way of explanation. Somebody ill-willed is "out to get us." I think man is ready to evlove beyond silly beliefs. At least, I would like to hope so. Maybe I am indulging in wishful thinking.
solis
Mar 18, 2005, 04:19 PM
Hi Rhymer,
Well said, but you have aptly described only Advaitic (non-dual) Hinduism.
Just as there is Gnosticism (aka Mystic Christianity) which would fall into your definition of 'monistic', there are also factions within Hinduism that believe in one God separate and apart from Humans. Most Hindus are either Dvaitic or Vishishtadvaitic.
'Dvaita'-- the belief that God, the soul & nature are three independant realities. While souls may be similar in substance to God, they remain eternally separate both from the Divine and from each other.
'Vishishtadvaita'-- the belief that God is a separate reality knowable via nature. While all souls are believed to contain a spark of God, all remain separate & different, both from another and from the Divine.
note: the gods (small g) that give Westerners the (wrong) idea Hunduism is polytheistic are merely aspects of Brahman (like saints to are to God in Christianity)
~sol
Rick
Mar 22, 2005, 01:01 PM
Some day these terms may be rigorously defined by science.
Rajesh
Mar 24, 2005, 08:32 AM
In some religions, God is above good and bad(devil). Which means God equally represents good and bad.
In some other religions God represents good, and bad(devil) is the opponent.
Rajesh
Mar 24, 2005, 08:50 AM
When the 'Good' fights the 'Bad', there will be more 'Bad'
When the 'Good' is good to the 'Bad', the 'Bad' will destroy the 'Good', and still there will be more 'Bad'.
Hence among 'Good' and 'Bad', the 'Bad' will always remain powerful.
But the 'Bad' cannot destroy the 'Good' completly, because if there is no 'Good' then the 'Bad' will be bad to itself which will lead to self destruction of 'Bad'
Hence 'Bad' cannot exist without 'Good', and 'Good' can never overcome 'Bad'
Dan
Mar 24, 2005, 12:13 PM
| QUOTE (Rajesh @ Mar 24, 08:50 AM) |
| When the 'Good' fights the 'Bad', there will be more 'Bad' |
why?
Rick
Mar 24, 2005, 01:39 PM
The metaphysics here is not well-defined.
If we define evil as "unnecessary harm" then we see that if harm is due to a natural disaster that can't be prevented, then it's not evil because it was necessary. All unnecessary harm comes from people, either through malicious acts or negligence.
Trip like I do
Mar 24, 2005, 04:21 PM
What about the ugly?
Rick
Mar 25, 2005, 09:14 AM
An artist should know that ugly is in the eye of the beholder. Have you ever tried deliberately to produce ugly art? It's not easy. It may be harder than beautiful art.
Trip like I do
Mar 25, 2005, 02:35 PM
I was just making note of "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly"!
by Mr. Eastwood!
And I wasn't 'infering' anything about whether beauty was in the eye of the beholder or not, although that is in itself an interesting and debatable question.
Rick
Mar 25, 2005, 02:40 PM
I understood the allusion.
Remember the bad poetry contest? Making something deliberately ugly is harder than it looks. I lost that contest very badly to Mr. Rajesh.
Trip like I do
Mar 25, 2005, 02:49 PM
| QUOTE (Rick @ Mar 25, 12:14 PM) |
| An artist should know that ugly is in the eye of the beholder.... |
Of course, all artists are taught that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but like many dogmatic and myopic philosophies regarding beauty that people seem to adhere to, it isn't necessarilly an accurate perception!
Trip like I do
Mar 25, 2005, 02:51 PM
Certain beauty must be transcendental and be a universal contant!
Rick
Mar 25, 2005, 02:57 PM
Can you prove that assertion?
Trip like I do
Mar 25, 2005, 04:25 PM
What about the beauty of mathematical proportion? It's appearance around the globe and throughout the universe, for starters?
The circle, square, triangle, etc.
Rick
Mar 25, 2005, 04:40 PM
Hah! The Japanese look down their noses at Western aesthetics because we are so fascinated by simple symmetry, etc. Look at Japanese art, gardens, and bonsai for a better aesthetic, but not in absolute terms, of course.
http://www.gsbf-bonsai.org/daiichibonsaikai/
Revlgking
Mar 26, 2005, 05:06 PM
"I don't think that Budhism recognizes a monotheistic god." Rick writes.
The same is true for unitheism--a doublet for what Rick calls 'naturism'.
Rick goes on to say, "My religion, secular humanism, doesn't recognize a god either."
Neither does unitheism. For unitheism, G-d is THE unit of the entire unit of that which is the total physical,
mental and spiritual universe. And if there is more, unitheistically speaking, G-d is that more.
Dan
Mar 26, 2005, 10:30 PM
| QUOTE (Revlgking @ Mar 26, 05:06 PM) |
| For unitheism, G-d is THE unit of the entire unit of that which is the total physical, mental and spiritual universe. |
Why not just say 'universe'? Why use a term that is clearly derived from religious myths where specific anthropomorphizations dominate and force adherents into delusional states of mind? By using such a loaded term, much of these anthropomorphizations will perpetuate subconsciously even if you deny that they are allowed by your system.
Rajesh
Mar 28, 2005, 07:03 AM
| QUOTE (Dan @ Mar 24, 12:13 PM) |
| QUOTE (Rajesh @ Mar 24, 08:50 AM) | | When the 'Good' fights the 'Bad', there will be more 'Bad' |
why?
|
Because the act of fighting is bad, it turns the 'Good' to 'Bad'.
Dan
Mar 28, 2005, 09:18 AM
| QUOTE (Rajesh @ Mar 28, 07:03 AM) |
| QUOTE (Dan @ Mar 24, 12:13 PM) | | QUOTE (Rajesh @ Mar 24, 08:50 AM) | | When the 'Good' fights the 'Bad', there will be more 'Bad' |
why?
|
Because the act of fighting is bad, it turns the 'Good' to 'Bad'.
|
I disagree; the act of fighting is neither good nor bad, it is simply an act. What makes the act 'good' or 'bad' is the intent of the fighter.
Rajesh
Mar 29, 2005, 07:30 AM
Even the intent is a mental act.
Either everything should be considered within Good-Bad duality.
Or everything should be beyond Good-Bad duality.
There is no dividing line.
Rick
Mar 29, 2005, 11:03 AM
There are evils of intent and evils of neglect. A good person must be more than merely benign. He (or she) must also be attentive and dilligent.
Dan
Mar 29, 2005, 12:59 PM
intent is not an act, intent is the direction along which one acts
Rick
Mar 29, 2005, 01:35 PM
True. An evil of intent, however, requires both malicious action and intent. An evil of neglect requires only laziness.
On some occasions, a person might "mean well" but do something really stupid that harms an innocent person. This too, is an evil of neglect, as due dilligence would have prevented the harm.
Dan
Mar 29, 2005, 02:43 PM
| QUOTE (Rick @ Mar 29, 01:35 PM) |
| True. An evil of intent, however, requires both malicious action and intent. An evil of neglect requires only laziness. |
I would say that willful neglect is intended, and that this is the only kind of neglect that can qualify as 'evil'; in this sense, the original definition applies
Rick
Mar 29, 2005, 03:46 PM
I disagree. It might be rightly argued that evils of neglect are lesser evils than willlful ones, but they are evils just the same.
Dan
Mar 29, 2005, 04:06 PM
If one has become aware of a defining issue, one chooses whether to act or to not act (thus, intentional action has occurred with respect to the issue). If one has had no opportunity to become aware of a defining issue, to hold that a lack of relevant action can be 'evil' is to define evil in terms of results alone, neglecting intentionality. I say that intentionality is a necessary component in deciding whether or not a person has committed 'evil'.
Rick
Mar 29, 2005, 04:13 PM
So are you saying that the person in the following scenario is not evil:
He knows he should not leave his baby out in the car while he goes to a friend's apartment, but he doesn't intend to be long. However, he has a beer and forgets about the kid in the car in the hot sun, and hours later he discovers the kid dead from the heat.
I say that this poor guy who killed his baby is guilty of an act of evil of neglect. That he had a duty to protect his child and failed to do it when he could be reasonably expected to. It's not on a par with the Evil Dr. Evil, but it's an evil just the same.
Hey Hey
Mar 29, 2005, 04:33 PM
all this talk of right and wrong, evil and good etc has taken the line of...you ought to act in a certain way, or else you are a bad person. all acting in a certain way will turn us into automatons. we have to have (indeed NEED) differences in attitude, opionion and approach, even if it seems to be "bad", "evil" to some. Or we will become stale. Experimentation in science often (MOST often) yields crap results. Without imaginative approaches the answers will never come. What is evil to one person might not be to another. And look at the animal kingdom; is the cat evil when it "taunts" a mouse? We have an inbuilt ability to be "bad" and this is there due to evolution. The recent sociological constraints on humans are often a pain and have caused more mental illness than any other facet of life (my opinion). We have to find ways to deal with these perceived "evil" people/acts in a different way. And human failings such as forgettfulness cannot be placed in the same category as willfull negligence. Otherwise we would all be in jail - even Rick!
Dan
Mar 29, 2005, 04:47 PM
| QUOTE (Rick @ Mar 29, 04:13 PM) |
So are you saying that the person in the following scenario is not evil:
He knows he should not leave his baby out in the car while he goes to a friend's apartment, but he doesn't intend to be long. However, he has a beer and forgets about the kid in the car in the hot sun, and hours later he discovers the kid dead from the heat. |
This person chose to risk the baby's health on his own capacity to remember the dangerous position he left her/him, and to compound that risk by imbibing alcohol. The 'evil' in this is that the risk was far greater than the net payout: possible dead baby for a smidgen of convenience. It is possible that the person was unaware of the risk to the baby, in which case he wins the Darwin award for stupidity. If, however, he was aware of the risk but chose to take it anyway then he is guilty of criminal negligence (a form of 'evil').
Rick
Mar 29, 2005, 04:50 PM
I never said sins of ommision should be in the same category as malice. But they aren't "good" either. The fact that all nations have courts empowered to decide and punish both malicious and negligent acts indicates that a significant number of people believe that these are decidable issues (there is an objective standard) and that people ought to be held accountable for both negligence and willful harm.
What did I forget? I'm human too, but that doesn't mean I should stop trying to improve. Jesus did say, after all, that only he who is without sin should cast the first stone.
Dan
Mar 29, 2005, 04:51 PM
| QUOTE (Hey Hey @ Mar 29, 04:33 PM) |
| What is evil to one person might not be to another. |
this refers to the inherent undecidability in judging another's act as good or evil. I cannot be sure if another is acting out of 'evil' intent or not; I can only measure the results of their actions against my understanding of the situation. I do, however, know my own intent. I cannot commit 'evil' without knowing that I have done so.
Rick
Mar 29, 2005, 05:04 PM
That's one way to get out of jury duty. Tell the judge that you don't feel that people should judge others.
Here's another situation from history:
Hundreds of thousands of otherwise "good" Germans did nothing while the Brownshirts committed "crystal night" and the Nazi Party sent millions of Jews to their deaths in slave labor and extermination camps.
Are you saying that those who did nothing are free of blame? I think we need to learn from the lessons of history and resolve to become better. If we don't do that, we fail in our potential as human beings.
Dan
Mar 29, 2005, 05:06 PM
| QUOTE |
| Are you saying that those who did nothing are free of blame? |
I'm saying they didn't 'do nothing' if they were aware of the situation.
Rick
Mar 29, 2005, 05:07 PM
That's what I'm saying too, so maybe we're just disagreeing on terms.
I say that "evil" is defined as unnecessary harm. That not preventing the preventable is unnecessary, and therefore evil.
Perhaps you are saying that your definition of evil requires the intent to harm.
However, I don't like that definition as it requires that the any true judge of evil can only be the evildoer himself (as you suggest above), and evildoers are notoriously biased.
I almost shot a friend in the knee once. I didn't mean to do it, and luckily the bullet missed him by inches. I was negligent. I could and should have been "better." Being more good is like less evil. The continuous scale appeals to my analytical nature.
Dan
Mar 29, 2005, 05:22 PM
| QUOTE (Rick @ Mar 29, 05:07 PM) |
| That's what I'm saying too, so maybe we're just disagreeing on terms. |
probably
The key is the decision that enables the 'evil' action. If awareness of the dilemma has not occurred, then the person cannot have made a decision (reflecting intent) and therefore cannot have committed 'evil'.
Dan
Mar 29, 2005, 05:24 PM
| QUOTE (Rick @ Mar 29, 05:07 PM) |
| Perhaps you are saying that your definition of evil requires the intent to harm. |
Yes! Without intent to harm, we have only harm.
| QUOTE |
| However, I don't like that definition as it requires that the any true judge of evil can only be the evildoer himself (as you suggest above), and evildoers are notoriously biased. |
What it really means (and, I suspect, what you don't like) is that the definition of 'good' and 'evil' is measured subjectively (as Hey Hey was alluding to). If this is the case, and if it is also the case that evildoers will not stop themselves, how can we be sure that, in the process of stopping evildoers from causing unnecessary harm, we are not ourselves causing more harm than good?
Rick
Mar 30, 2005, 08:58 AM
| QUOTE (Dan @ Mar 29, 06:24 PM) |
| ... how can we be sure that, in the process of stopping evildoers from causing unnecessary harm, we are not ourselves causing more harm than good? |
This is one of the core questions of ethics and law. The law does judge intent, both in findings of guilt and decisions of punishment. Whether or not this is reasonable might be debated by some, but the majority clearly believe this is both possible and can be fairly administered. I have participated in criminal juries several times and I think justice prevails, generally.
From a metaphysical viewpoint, you seem to emphasize intent in your definition. We are all familiar with cases where evil intent seems to dominate. For example, the case of the cold-blooded thug who will take a wallet and then shoot the victim just for the hell of it. That class of evil is very clear cut. The problem, in my understanding of it, is the more common case, where, say, a jilted lover will be unable to control his rage and shoot his ex-girlfriend and her lover. Days later he will realize that his inability to control his rage (a form of weakness) has put him in a very bad position. I see these evils of weakness as forms of evil too, although, quite rightly, not of the same class as the more blatant examples.
To further reinforce the argument, suppose we have a case of a guy who gets these sadistic impulses from time to time, but is able to fight them down using his inner strength and knowledge of honor and rightness. Then one day he weakens, and lets his darker impulses get the better of him. Isn't this example of weakening an expression of evil? If so, then we need to examine other ways in which weakness allows evil to occur.
Rajesh
Apr 04, 2005, 07:47 AM
By division we create Good and Evil.
There is no way that we can get rid of one of them, they will always co-exist in some form.
Domination is the attribute of evil, hence it is Evil which dominates always. It doesnot mean that there is more Evil, but it just means that it will always dominate.
We are good in designing electrical and electronic circuits.
But, when it comes to social engineering, we are yet to learn how to manage the positive and negative energy. It is not wise to attempt to convert all negative energy to Positive energy.
Rick
Apr 04, 2005, 11:57 AM
| QUOTE (Rajesh @ Apr 04, 08:47 AM) |
| ... But, when it comes to social engineering, we are yet to learn how to manage the positive and negative energy. It is not wise to attempt to convert all negative energy to Positive energy. |
Until the social laws are fully understood, the assertion that striving for the positive is unwise is baseless. It may well be that a utoian future is possible.
Certainly our families, schools, laws, courts, police, and government work toward minimizing harm in our society. While some of this work may not always be of optimal efficiency, I don't think it can successfully be argued that we should not do it.