Post-modernism - to know that which is not possible anymore.
It's all been done?
Full Version: Mars
| QUOTE (Dan @ Mar 10, 06:05 PM) |
| it would mostly just be one huge expense-paid adventure for astronaut-kind |
I think we have to assume that for space exploration to be worthwhile it will have to lead to eventual colonization of Mars. The first colonists may be a single pair, or may be a larger group.
Suppose the Mars colony were to observe a devastating war on Earth. Such a sight would certainly provide a "lesson" to man that has never been experienced before, and along with that lesson the opportunity to learn from it (on Mars). Without a Mars colony, that opportunity might not exist.
Sure, Mars is a harsh mistress, but people have brains and technology. We will adapt. Mars may even flourish at some distant time in the future.
that all sounds good, but a little premature
Martian climatology might be interesting after you have solved all the lightning formation problems for Earth.
true, maybe I'll sing a different tune if the funding is there 
If you really wanted to be rich you would have been a business major.
I'm thinking of taking up white-collar gambling as a hobby after I create the Ultimate Grand Unified Theory of Physics and Consciousness and Everything..., maybe then I'll become a cross between Al Einstein and Warren Buffett and rule the world from constantly upgraded artificial bodies
Unfortunately, the brain deteriorates with age to the point where you won't think it's fun anymore. There's also a finite memory storage capacity. Better to enjoy life while you can, and I know you do.
I'll replace my brain too, and add an extra 'hedonism' module or two
Hedonism forms the basis of my philosophy. Most people haven't looked into it deeply enough and erroneously conclude that it precludes altruism or ethics. Not so. Most people, after doing something unethical feel guilty, which is not a good feeling, so hedonism leads them to be ethical in the future.
Maybe they would insist on hedonism as a key component and positively reinforce it on the Mars colony of life!
http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/fr...water_mars.html
Frozen Sea of Water Discovered on Mars....
Frozen Sea of Water Discovered on Mars....
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6981361/
Signs of current life on Mars, researchers claim....
Methane signatures seen hinting at possibilities underground....
Signs of current life on Mars, researchers claim....
Methane signatures seen hinting at possibilities underground....
http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/ro...ife_desert.html
....Current Mars expeditions raise the tantalizing possibility that there may be life somewhere on the red planet. But just how will future missions find it? A system being developed by Carnegie Mellon scientists could provide the answer....
....Current Mars expeditions raise the tantalizing possibility that there may be life somewhere on the red planet. But just how will future missions find it? A system being developed by Carnegie Mellon scientists could provide the answer....
Did you know that there have been over 30 stars discovered in the universe that have planets rotating them, and one with three orbiting mammoths (4piter - one four times the size of Jupiter, 2piter - one two times the size of Jupiter, and dinky)?
| QUOTE (Dan @ Mar 12, 01:14 AM) |
| ....soup of confusion. |
primordial soup, with a pint of lager on the side.
It seems that the "sea of ice on Mars" might have been premature and based on (as are most human follies) wishful thinking. Other theories to account for the observations have been surfacing. Time will tell.
What's up with the post weirdo?
Beat it! You sound like your used to that!
Beat it! You sound like your used to that!
The evidence referred to in the Times of India article is of water that existed millions of years ago on Mars. It has since evaporated completely. Mars is drier than the Sahara Desert.
However, that doesn't mean we can't bring life to Mars. We need to excavate large and very deep east-west trenches and put water and specially bred microbes there. If the trenches are dug at low latitudes, but slightly above or below the equator, solar radiation will not reach their bottoms. Automatically aimed mirrors placed above the trenches can focus sunlight on the bottom for warmth and photosynthesis. The bottoms of the trenches will be sheltered from both solar and cosmic radiation, and life can evolve there if we replenish the water from time to time.
However, that doesn't mean we can't bring life to Mars. We need to excavate large and very deep east-west trenches and put water and specially bred microbes there. If the trenches are dug at low latitudes, but slightly above or below the equator, solar radiation will not reach their bottoms. Automatically aimed mirrors placed above the trenches can focus sunlight on the bottom for warmth and photosynthesis. The bottoms of the trenches will be sheltered from both solar and cosmic radiation, and life can evolve there if we replenish the water from time to time.
The "evidence" is subject to interpretation, and they are heavily influenced by wishful thinking. Mars is not only completely dry, it's also completely sterile.
"Open to interpretation" ....agreed, but interesting nonetheless!
"dry and sterile?" ....water, the seed of life may still be a possibility.
"dry and sterile?" ....water, the seed of life may still be a possibility.
QUOTE(Rick @ Dec 06, 2006, 11:39 PM) 
The "evidence" is subject to interpretation, and they are heavily influenced by wishful thinking. Mars is not only completely dry, it's also completely sterile.
So this guy's opinion is not a good one:
Michael Meyer, lead scientist for NASA's Mars Exploration Program, Washington?
There is a conflict of interest. The guy in charge of getting funds for Mars Exploration is saying that Mars is a lot more interesting than previously thought, so let's spend a lot more so my budget gets bigger!
This is just like with the false alarm on the Mars meteorite bacteria. Nobody talks about that any more, do they?
This is just like with the false alarm on the Mars meteorite bacteria. Nobody talks about that any more, do they?
QUOTE(Rick @ Dec 07, 2006, 09:21 PM)
There is a conflict of interest. The guy in charge of getting funds for Mars Exploration is saying that Mars is a lot more interesting than previously thought, so let's spend a lot more so my budget gets bigger!
That's half the reason why most scientists publish - to attract more funding. Cat out of the bag, but true. Nothing dishonest about it for the honest scientists (
).QUOTE(Rick @ Dec 07, 2006, 09:21 PM)
This is just like with the false alarm on the Marse meteorite bacteria. Nobody talks about that any more, do they?
But still in the air. (They keep repeating the shows on Sky TV). Yerr, OK.
QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 07, 2006, 01:30 PM)
That's half the reason why most scientists publish - to attract more funding. Cat out of the bag, but true. Nothing dishonest about it for the honest scientists ().
).We can certainly understand the motives of Mars scientists for hyping their results, but that doesn't mean we have to uncritically accept them. Because we see the conflict of interest clearly, we are naturally suspicious of the validity of the interpretation.
QUOTE(Rick @ Dec 07, 2006, 10:05 PM)
We can certainly understand the motives of Mars scientists for hyping their results, but that doesn't mean we have to uncritically accept them. Because we see the conflict of interest clearly, we are naturally suspicious of the validity of the interpretation.
Most of what I have read from NASA is not hyping but simple reporting. Third parties, of course, have been doing the usual.
Good news about Mars:
Strongest Proof Yet of Water Flow on Mars
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/07/science/...gin&oref=slogin
Strongest Proof Yet of Water Flow on Mars
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/07/science/...gin&oref=slogin
Geologists Finding A Different Mars Underneath
Mars is showing scientists its older, craggier face buried beneath the surface, thanks to a pioneering sounding radar co-sponsored by NASA aboard the European Space Agency's Mars Express orbiter.
Observations by the first project to explore a planet by sounding radar strongly suggest that ancient impact craters lie buried beneath the smooth, low plains of Mars' northern hemisphere. The technique uses echoes of waves that have penetrated below the surface.
"It's almost like having X-ray vision," said Dr. Thomas R. Watters of the National Air and Space Museum's Center for Earth and Planetary Studies, Washington. "Besides finding previously unknown impact basins, we've also confirmed that some of the subtle topographic depressions mapped previously in the lowlands are related to impact features."
Studies of how Mars evolved aid understanding of early Earth. Some signs of the forces at work a few billion years ago are more evident on Mars because, on Earth, many of them have been obliterated during Earth's more active resurfacing by tectonic activity.
Watters and nine co-authors report the findings in the Dec. 14, 2006 issue of the journal Nature.
The researchers used the orbiter's Mars Advanced Radar for Subsurface and Ionospheric Sounding, which was provided to the European Mars mission by NASA and the Italian Space Agency. The instrument transmits radio waves that pass through the Martian surface and bounce off features in the subsurface with electrical properties that contrast with those of materials that buried them.
The findings bring planetary scientists closer to understanding one of the most enduring mysteries about the geologic evolution of the planet. In contrast to Earth, Mars shows a striking difference between its northern and southern hemispheres. Almost the entire southern hemisphere has rough, heavily cratered highlands, while most of the northern hemisphere is smoother and lower in elevation.
Since the impacts that cause craters can happen anywhere on a planet, the areas with fewer craters are generally interpreted as younger surfaces where geological processes have erased the impact scars. The abundance of buried craters that the radar has detected beneath Mars' smooth northern plains means the underlying crust of the northern hemisphere is extremely old, "perhaps as ancient as the heavily cratered highland crust in the southern hemisphere."
Learning about the ancient lowland crust has been challenging because that crust was buried first by vast amounts of volcanic lava and then by sediments carried by episodic flood waters and wind.
Observations by the first project to explore a planet by sounding radar strongly suggest that ancient impact craters lie buried beneath the smooth, low plains of Mars' northern hemisphere. The technique uses echoes of waves that have penetrated below the surface.
"It's almost like having X-ray vision," said Dr. Thomas R. Watters of the National Air and Space Museum's Center for Earth and Planetary Studies, Washington. "Besides finding previously unknown impact basins, we've also confirmed that some of the subtle topographic depressions mapped previously in the lowlands are related to impact features."
Studies of how Mars evolved aid understanding of early Earth. Some signs of the forces at work a few billion years ago are more evident on Mars because, on Earth, many of them have been obliterated during Earth's more active resurfacing by tectonic activity.
Watters and nine co-authors report the findings in the Dec. 14, 2006 issue of the journal Nature.
The researchers used the orbiter's Mars Advanced Radar for Subsurface and Ionospheric Sounding, which was provided to the European Mars mission by NASA and the Italian Space Agency. The instrument transmits radio waves that pass through the Martian surface and bounce off features in the subsurface with electrical properties that contrast with those of materials that buried them.
The findings bring planetary scientists closer to understanding one of the most enduring mysteries about the geologic evolution of the planet. In contrast to Earth, Mars shows a striking difference between its northern and southern hemispheres. Almost the entire southern hemisphere has rough, heavily cratered highlands, while most of the northern hemisphere is smoother and lower in elevation.
Since the impacts that cause craters can happen anywhere on a planet, the areas with fewer craters are generally interpreted as younger surfaces where geological processes have erased the impact scars. The abundance of buried craters that the radar has detected beneath Mars' smooth northern plains means the underlying crust of the northern hemisphere is extremely old, "perhaps as ancient as the heavily cratered highland crust in the southern hemisphere."
Learning about the ancient lowland crust has been challenging because that crust was buried first by vast amounts of volcanic lava and then by sediments carried by episodic flood waters and wind.
Has anyone read that Mars series of novels, Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars? It's science fiction about colonization and terra-forming of Mars.
Don't Drink the Mars Water
Is extraterrestrial water potable?
By Daniel Engber
Water has flowed on Mars within the last few years, researchers announced Dec. 6. Images of Martian gullies show what appear to be the deposits left by little spurts of water as they trickled downhill. If an astronaut could bottle up some of this extraterrestrial water, could he drink it?
Probably not. At this point, it's impossible to know exactly which minerals are dissolved in the water, and in what concentrations. But the evidence from salt deposits elsewhere on the surface suggests that a Martian aquifer isn't exactly Poland Spring. There's a reasonable chance that any liquid you might find on the surface of the planet would be an acidic sludge of minerals.
The fact that there's any liquid water at all on the surface of Mars should be a warning sign. Under most conditions, the planet's thin and cold atmosphere would make water freeze or evaporate soon after it emerged from underground. The melting point of the water could be lowered—and this process could be delayed—if the fluid were particularly salty. (That's why we sprinkle salt on ice and snow in the winter.) Given that the Martian water stayed on the surface long enough to trickle into a gully, we might presume that it would be too salty to drink.
That's not the only reason to think the space water would be unpalatable. Mineral specimens collected by the Mars rovers (on other parts of the planet) have turned up significant quantities of jarosite, a salt deposit that tends to form only in very acidic solutions. Researchers guess that the jarosite precipitated from a liquid with a pH of between 0 and 4. For comparison, a human can handle an acidic beverage like Coca-Cola, which has a pH of about 2.4, but more concentrated acids will cause mucosal injuries to the esophagus, stomach, and intestines. (Anything with a pH of less than 5.5 can affect the surface of your teeth.)
Even if the Mars water weren't too salty or acidic for our canteens, it might still be laden with junk from underground. It's impossible to know whether the liquid emerged as a sludgy mess of minerals, or as a more dilute (and palatable) mixture. The difference could depend on the total volume of water that reached the surface—with more water being more dilute. But the deposit trails we see in the recent photos could have resulted from just the tiniest trickle of dirty liquid, enough to moisten up some sediment and carry it slowly down the hill.
Finally, it's possible that the water would be carrying toxic metals, like cadmium or copper. Based on the data we have now, there's no way to know if these elements are present.
Is extraterrestrial water potable?
By Daniel Engber
Water has flowed on Mars within the last few years, researchers announced Dec. 6. Images of Martian gullies show what appear to be the deposits left by little spurts of water as they trickled downhill. If an astronaut could bottle up some of this extraterrestrial water, could he drink it?
Probably not. At this point, it's impossible to know exactly which minerals are dissolved in the water, and in what concentrations. But the evidence from salt deposits elsewhere on the surface suggests that a Martian aquifer isn't exactly Poland Spring. There's a reasonable chance that any liquid you might find on the surface of the planet would be an acidic sludge of minerals.
The fact that there's any liquid water at all on the surface of Mars should be a warning sign. Under most conditions, the planet's thin and cold atmosphere would make water freeze or evaporate soon after it emerged from underground. The melting point of the water could be lowered—and this process could be delayed—if the fluid were particularly salty. (That's why we sprinkle salt on ice and snow in the winter.) Given that the Martian water stayed on the surface long enough to trickle into a gully, we might presume that it would be too salty to drink.
That's not the only reason to think the space water would be unpalatable. Mineral specimens collected by the Mars rovers (on other parts of the planet) have turned up significant quantities of jarosite, a salt deposit that tends to form only in very acidic solutions. Researchers guess that the jarosite precipitated from a liquid with a pH of between 0 and 4. For comparison, a human can handle an acidic beverage like Coca-Cola, which has a pH of about 2.4, but more concentrated acids will cause mucosal injuries to the esophagus, stomach, and intestines. (Anything with a pH of less than 5.5 can affect the surface of your teeth.)
Even if the Mars water weren't too salty or acidic for our canteens, it might still be laden with junk from underground. It's impossible to know whether the liquid emerged as a sludgy mess of minerals, or as a more dilute (and palatable) mixture. The difference could depend on the total volume of water that reached the surface—with more water being more dilute. But the deposit trails we see in the recent photos could have resulted from just the tiniest trickle of dirty liquid, enough to moisten up some sediment and carry it slowly down the hill.
Finally, it's possible that the water would be carrying toxic metals, like cadmium or copper. Based on the data we have now, there's no way to know if these elements are present.
QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Dec 17, 2006, 02:43 PM)
Don't Drink the Mars Water
Is extraterrestrial water potable?
By Daniel Engber
Water has flowed on Mars within the last few years, researchers announced Dec. 6. Images of Martian gullies show what appear to be the deposits left by little spurts of water as they trickled downhill. If an astronaut could bottle up some of this extraterrestrial water, could he drink it?
Probably not. At this point, it's impossible to know exactly which minerals are dissolved in the water, and in what concentrations. But the evidence from salt deposits elsewhere on the surface suggests that a Martian aquifer isn't exactly Poland Spring. There's a reasonable chance that any liquid you might find on the surface of the planet would be an acidic sludge of minerals.
The fact that there's any liquid water at all on the surface of Mars should be a warning sign. Under most conditions, the planet's thin and cold atmosphere would make water freeze or evaporate soon after it emerged from underground. The melting point of the water could be lowered—and this process could be delayed—if the fluid were particularly salty. (That's why we sprinkle salt on ice and snow in the winter.) Given that the Martian water stayed on the surface long enough to trickle into a gully, we might presume that it would be too salty to drink.
That's not the only reason to think the space water would be unpalatable. Mineral specimens collected by the Mars rovers (on other parts of the planet) have turned up significant quantities of jarosite, a salt deposit that tends to form only in very acidic solutions. Researchers guess that the jarosite precipitated from a liquid with a pH of between 0 and 4. For comparison, a human can handle an acidic beverage like Coca-Cola, which has a pH of about 2.4, but more concentrated acids will cause mucosal injuries to the esophagus, stomach, and intestines. (Anything with a pH of less than 5.5 can affect the surface of your teeth.)
Even if the Mars water weren't too salty or acidic for our canteens, it might still be laden with junk from underground. It's impossible to know whether the liquid emerged as a sludgy mess of minerals, or as a more dilute (and palatable) mixture. The difference could depend on the total volume of water that reached the surface—with more water being more dilute. But the deposit trails we see in the recent photos could have resulted from just the tiniest trickle of dirty liquid, enough to moisten up some sediment and carry it slowly down the hill.
Finally, it's possible that the water would be carrying toxic metals, like cadmium or copper. Based on the data we have now, there's no way to know if these elements are present.
We need to invest into robotics. That is the gateway to the Mars and to my Imperial navy too.
.... potential life sustaining soil confirmed found on mars!!! Where the mind goes with this new revelation?!
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/5859216.html
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/5859216.html
Pay Dirt: Martian Soil Fit for Earthly Life.... Phoenix finds alkaline soil with plenty of minerals!!
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=martia...or-earthly-life
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=martia...or-earthly-life
So now we will need serious Robotics to explore Mars. The Soil is good, the Water is fine so all is ready to pass funding in the Congress. Robots will build up a Plantation and a Hub there for future human expeditions.
And it is quite symbolic that those news comes from Phoenix apparatus.
Expansion!
And it is quite symbolic that those news comes from Phoenix apparatus.
Expansion!
There is no water on Mars. Read the news release carefully. Only traces of H2O were found in the soil sample.
QUOTE(Rick @ Jun 30, 2008, 02:44 PM)
There is no water on Mars. Read the news release carefully. Only traces of H2O were found in the soil sample.
Rick, here please http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/08062...nix-update.html
"Mars Lander Scrapes Icy Soil in Wonderland". You see Rick Wonderland...
Rick do not undermine my projects related with the Imperial Navy.
There is water on Mars and we go to Mars! This info is sufficent to fund serious future Mars projects.
So we need serious Robotics.
Yeah, it's ice all right. Dry ice. Carbon dioxide. There is no water there!
QUOTE(Rick @ Jul 01, 2008, 10:56 AM)
Yeah, it's ice all right. Dry ice. Carbon dioxide. There is no water there!
Rick, taxpayers under word ice understand water.
So do not mix our Imperial Projects!
New technologies, new robotics.
There is water on Mars poles, investigations show that water on Mars is present, even if it is not the ice of water, nonetheless somewhere there there is water and we now know that Mars has good soil. You see.
Think proactively Rick.
"Observations from the lander's Thermal and Evolved-Gas Analyzer made last week indicated that the soil had at some time in the past interacted with water. "
Resist thinking wishfully! Try to be reality-based.
It also says that life could exist deep beneath the surface of Mars!
I wouldn't bet on it.
Neither would I Rick.... but that is what was stated in the article!
QUOTE(Rick @ Jul 01, 2008, 11:22 AM)
Resist thinking wishfully! Try to be reality-based.
Reality is a very relative matter you know.
You shall see how water will eventually emerge immerging Mars.
.... disappearing ice on Mars!
The dry ice evaporates when exposed to sunlight. Still no water found.
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