Self-Hypnosis, Help a teen. Options

[Enki]

Enki, either your incredibly ignorant or your joking. I think this is another joke though.

Yes indeed, I think Max that it is quite obvious that I am incredibly ignorant.
Hope you will enjoy company of very credible and aware people.
In our times jokes are hard to be discerned.

In order not to spread ignorance among so aware people I will prefer to depart into detached transcendence and permanently press space button to skip my turn. That will be quite interesting to observe what will come out of that.

I am sorry, but I am quite busy and will not be able in coming months to visit this forum, as well as any other forum. Definitely Kids have to propel on their own.

Good bye.

[maximus242]

Enki, its sooo hard to tell when you are joking. Maybe its just me, im trying to decern whether your mad, happy, philosophical or something inbetween. Im sorry but I honestly have a hard time telling.

Hypnosis has done more good than harm, self-hypnosis is not a danger, its black (as in what they do with hypnosis, not the color of their skin) hypnotists trying to use communication as persuasion and influence in a cult like manner.

Enki, I enjoy your opinions and I would sorely miss them, if you can spare the time to come on just one forum, do come on brainmeta.

[Lindsay]

Enki, its sooo hard to tell when you are joking.

Max, you are SOOOOOO, right.

I also agree with you when you write: "Hypnosis has done more good than harm, self-hypnosis is not a danger...(problem occur when) hypnotists...use communication, as persuasion and influence, in a cult-like manner.

IMHO, it would be nice if we could take the monster-like word 'hypnosis' and retire it from use , if not bury it. 'Hypnosis' is the Greek for sleep. The trance experience is about waking up, fully, not about falling to sleep.

EVEN THE ONE WHO COINED THE WORD 'HYPNOSIS' TRIED TO CHANGE IT
I am sure that you are aware that this is precisely what Dr. James Braid--a British surgeon and a Scot who practiced in Manchester, England--had in mind and hoped to do. He tried, but failed, to change the word 'hypnotism' to 'monoideism'--the ability to keep ones mind focussed on one idea. Unfortunately, until now, popular usage won the day.

[Lindsay]

Dianah:As long as we keep in mind that it is all about coming AWAKE--to consciousness, I'm okay.

BTW, Dr. Franz Antoine Mesmber--he was a medical doctor--called it "animal magnetism". Those who were taught by him called it "mesmerism". Mesmer was driven out of Vienna by the religion and medical authorities--obscurants all. He took refuge in Paris and became famous when his methods, which worked for a lot of people, when, just before the French Revolution, he was investigated by a special royal
commission headed by the American ambassador to Paris, Benjamin Franklin.

The following site gives us more on the history of the concept:
http://www.danielolson.com/hypnosis/hypnosis_history.html

I am pleased with the interest there is in this subject. IMHO, it helps explain the power behind faith healing, at its best. I am not talking about the many frauds in the field. Any success they have, it seems, is purely accidental.

Keep in mind: I am not cynical about the power of a genuine and sincere faith, but faith does have its limitations, as I indicate below.

Years ago--in the 1970's--I wrote several columns, in a Toronto paper, and exposed some of the so-called "faith healers" who made fantastic claims. I followed up on people, with serious physical conditions, who claimed that they were healed at their services. Parents of a stone-deaf child---born with with no physical hearing mechanism--told me that they believed their son was "healed tonight". This and other cases I looked into proved false. A well-known Canadian journalist and author, Tom Harpur, who I know, had the same experience.

With the cooperation of a "healing team", from a local church, I actually set up an extensive experiment involving my own health problems--chronic conditions--and agreed to have the team "Pray with and for me". They assured me that if I did not have the faith, God would give me the faith I needed. "Meanwhile, our prayers will make up for any doubt you have."

The experiment went on for weeks. It did not work.

To make a long story short, quite awhile later, I had surgery, which did improve the problem, greatly. However it did not completely eliminate it. Science, too, has its limitations.

Question: If Benny Hinn, Peter Popoff, Pat Robertson and Oral Roberts, Jr., etc., have a direct line to God, how come they do not simply take this "magic" into a major hospital and empty it?

Who would waste time and money on medicare if healing was as simple as the faith healers say it is?

[correlli]

I've used hypnosis quite alot. It's helps with motivation to do things, change things, ignore things, study things , manipulate things, etc Be careful who you get your instructions from!! The best instructions would be from yourself.

[RevLG.KING]

Dianah:As long as we keep in mind that it is all about coming AWAKE--to consciousness, I'm okay.

BTW, Dr. Franz Antoine Mesmber--he was a medical doctor--called it "animal magnetism". Those who were taught by him called it "mesmerism". Mesmer was driven out of Vienna by the religion and medical authorities--obscurants all. He took refuge in Paris and became famous when his methods, which worked for a lot of people, when, just before the French Revolution, he was investigated by a special royal
commission headed by the American ambassador to Paris, Benjamin Franklin.

The following site gives us more on the history of the concept:


I am pleased with the interest there is in this subject. IMHO, it helps explain the power behind faith healing, at its best. I am not talking about the many frauds in the field. Any success they have, it seems, is purely accidental.

Keep in mind: I am not cynical about the power of a genuine and sincere faith, but faith does have its limitations, as I indicate below.

Years ago--in the 1970's--I wrote several columns, in a Toronto paper, and exposed some of the so-called "faith healers" who made fantastic claims. I followed up on people, with serious physical conditions, who claimed that they were healed at their services. Parents of a stone-deaf child---born with with no physical hearing mechanism--told me that they believed their son was "healed tonight". This and other cases I looked into proved false. A well-known Canadian journalist and author, Tom Harpur, who I know, had the same experience.

With the cooperation of a "healing team", from a local church, I actually set up an extensive experiment involving my own health problems--chronic conditions--and agreed to have the team "Pray with and for me". They assured me that if I did not have the faith, God would give me the faith I needed. "Meanwhile, our prayers will make up for any doubt you have."

The experiment went on for weeks. It did not work.

To make a long story short, quite awhile later, I had surgery, which did improve the problem, greatly. However it did not completely eliminate it. Science, too, has its limitations.

Question: If Benny Hinn, Peter Popoff, Pat Robertson and Oral Roberts, Jr., etc., have a direct line to God, how come they do not simply take this "magic" into a major hospital and empty it?

Who would waste time and money on medicare if healing was as simple as the faith healers say it is?

[RevLG.KING]

I've used hypnosis quite alot. It's helps with motivation to do things, change things, ignore things, study things , manipulate things, etc Be careful who you get your instructions from!! The best instructions would be from yourself.

As a moderator, it seems that I (Lindsay, is my first name) am able to connect within this post. I trust that I will do so honestly.

Keep in mind: I have been a student of self-hypnosis since the 1960's.

I like to call what I am doing, pneuamatherapy--the spiritual use of hypnotic technique. Please google on 'pneumatology'--a word I introduced to Wikipedia--which was the mother of psychology. If I can be of help, feel free to keep in touch.

[RevLG.KING]

BT W, be patient. I am just getting the drift of operating from another 'puter--a lap top--in another area.

[Hey Hey]

I like to call what I am doing, pneuamatherapy--the spiritual use of hypnotic technique. Please google on 'pneumatology'--a word I introduced to Wikipedia--which was the mother of psychology.

Psychology has a scientific foundation nowadays, so let's not get carried away ...

[correlli]

I like to call what I am doing, pneuamatherapy--the spiritual use of hypnotic technique.

I always thought God was quite a useful invention. Keeps people nice and obediant.

[Lindsay]

I like to call what I am doing, pneuamatherapy--the spiritual use of hypnotic technique. Please, google on 'pneumatology'--a word I introduced to Wikipedia--which was the mother of psychology.

Psychology has a scientific foundation nowadays, so let's not get carried away ...

HH, can you quote me a law, or commandment which says: Thou shalt not study spirituality, including religion, the gods, God or GOD?

If psychology is a science, how come there are so many schools of psychology?

BTW, I am all in favour of evidence-based theology, psychology and pneumatology.
====================================================================
Interestingly, Wilhelm Maximilian Wundt (1832-1920) known to posterity as the “father of experimental psychology� was the son of an evangelical Lutheran minister.

Wilhelm Maximilian Wundt Wilhelm Maximilian Wundt (1832-1920) is known to posterity as the “father of experimental psychology� and the founder of the first psychology laboratory (Boring, 1950: 317, 322, 344-5).[1] From there, Wundt exerted enormous influence on the development of psychology as a discipline, ... Alan Kim http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/wilhelm-wundt/ Panpsychism Panpsychism is the doctrine that mind is a fundamental feature of the world which exists throughout the universe. Unsurprisingly, each of the key terms, “mind�, “fundamental� ... Wundt (1832-1920), another famous early psychologist who established the first psychological research laboratory, Rudolf Hermann Lotze (1817-1881), a polymath who also figured in the creation of psychology ... William Seager and Sean Allen-Hermanson http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/panpsychism/ Wilhelm Maximilian Wundt > Notes Notes to Wilhelm Maximilian Wundt 1. William James saw an inverse ratio between Wundt's productivity and wisdom: “He aims at being a Napoleon of the intellectual world. Unfortunately he will never have a Waterloo, for he is Napoleon without genius and with no central idea….� “Whilst ... Alan Kim http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/wilhelm-wundt/notes.html

[Lindsay]

I like to call what I am doing, pneuamatherapy--the spiritual use of hypnotic technique.

I always thought God was quite a useful invention. Keeps people nice and obediant.

Go ahead and expand on how you feel, theologically. Where did you learn this kind of theology?

THERE ARE RELIGIONS WITHOUT A DOGMA-BASED THEOLOGY
=======================================================
BTW, although individuals are free to think of 'God' as an absolute monarch, if they so choose, you will not find this kind of theology offered by most posters at http://www.wondercafe.ca --a site sponsored by the United Church of Canada. Agnostics and atheists are welcome, and quite few participate.
http://www.google.ca/search?q=the+united+c...lient=firefox-a

[correlli]

I like to call what I am doing, pneuamatherapy--the spiritual use of hypnotic technique.

I always thought God was quite a useful invention. Keeps people nice and obediant.

Go ahead and expand on how you feel, theologically. Where did you learn this kind of theology?

I'll put it to you this way. If a person was put in an environment where they were never taught about God from birth, would that individual spontaneously start believing that there was a God?

[Hey Hey]

I like to call what I am doing, pneuamatherapy--the spiritual use of hypnotic technique.

I always thought God was quite a useful invention. Keeps people nice and obediant.

Go ahead and expand on how you feel, theologically. Where did you learn this kind of theology?

I'll put it to you this way. If a person was put in an environment where they were never taught about God from birth, would that individual spontaneously start believing that there was a God?

If he had hallucinations then he might become deluded enough to believe there was a god.

[Hey Hey]

HH, can you quote me a law, or commandment which says: Thou shalt not study spirituality, including religion, the gods, God or GOD?

That's not what I said Lindsay. What I implied, was that you try and give "weight" or credence to your "pheumatology" by attempting to maintain its association with psychology:

I like to call what I am doing, pneuamatherapy--the spiritual use of hypnotic technique. Please google on 'pneumatology'--a word I introduced to Wikipedia--which was the mother of psychology.

Now that might be viewed as a rather devious way of appealing to the non-initiated or novices on this forum.

[Hey Hey]

Interestingly, Wilhelm Maximilian Wundt (1832-1920) known to posterity as the “father of experimental psychology� was the son of an evangelical Lutheran minister.

Here Lindsay it seems as though you take a reverse tack, by suggesting that Maximilian's experimental psychology has some sort of influence from his father's Lutherian ministery. So I must have become a microbiologist because my father was train driver?

[Hey Hey]

If psychology is a science, how come there are so many schools of psychology?

I don't know your definition of school here, but schools of disciplines in universities are amalgamations of related areas, e.g. a school of science. If you mean that there are some psychologists who don't take a rigorous, empirical scientific approach, then I think you must be associating with some who are close to retirement or who, in a minority, are on the fringes of the discipline. I'm sure that every university department discovers it has has a nutcase who maintains tenure by contract but who is sidelined rather than promoted.

This is not to say that hypnosis might have a testable foundation (and of course that those abductees under the swinging watch actually did see aliens). It is not my area of expertise and I would welcome some education, supported by evidence published in peer reviewed journals.

[Lindsay]

... This is not to say that hypnosis might have a testable foundation (and of course that those abductees under the swinging watch actually did see aliens).

It is not my area of expertise and I would welcome some education, supported by evidence published in peer reviewed journals.

THE ART OF HYPNOSIS
Depending on one's level of interest--beginning with self-hypnosis--everyone should learn something about this art. Why do I say this? Because the ability to go into and out of the trance state is part of our human nature. It is a ubiquitous as the ability to use language.

The art--and it is an art, not a science--of hypnosis is not unlike learning to read. It is so simple that the basic technique can be taught, in five to ten minutes, over the telephone. In my opinion, every public school teacher should be taught how to do it, and it should be taught as part of the public education system, at all levels. Of course, mastery is something else. Good teachers, preachers, politicians, whatever, who inspire students to be better students are nothing more than natural-born hypnotists.

BTW, HH, in another thread, I gave my definition of spirituality. However, I do not recall getting yours.

[Lindsay]

THE ART OF THE SELF-HYPNOTIC TRANCE
===================================
As I indicated above, it is my opinion everyone should learn something about this art. Why do I say this? Because the ability to go into and out of the trance state is part of our human nature. It is as ubiquitous as the ability to use language. Like language, we are using the trance every day, for good or ill. Therefore, we had better learn how to use it creatively, or it will use us in a destructive way. Ignorance of this phenomenon is not bliss, it is dangerous.

FOR BASIC INFORMATION ON HYPNOSIS check out:
http://www.danielolson.com/hypnosis/hypnosis_history.html

Check out Dr. Milton Erickson--
http://www.google.ca/search?q=Milton+Erick...lient=firefox-a

Milton H. Erickson (1902-1980). When he was alove he was generally considered to be the most important hypnotherapist. He was a psychiatrist/hypnotherapist practising in Arizona, Phoenix, USA.

He was born colour blind, and was affected by polio at the age of 19, and in the process of curing his disabled body himself by modelling how the small babies in his family began to learn to move their hands and legs, his sensory perception on the level of non-verbal communication was made extremely acute, and helped him later in inventing non-conventional "Ericksonian Hypnosis".

His hypnotic techniques and life are well documented by a number of authors, among whom J. Haley of the Palo Alto Group (the members of the Mental Research Institute in Palo Alto, California, guided by Gregory Bateson) was the first person who introduced the techniques of Ericksonian Hypnosis to the world.

Erickson heavily influenced John Grinder and Richard Bandler, the co-founders of NLP. It was indeed Gregory Bateson, the teacher of Grinder and Bandler, who advised them to visit Erickson, and after modelling Erickson, they published their first NLP book "The Structure of Magic I" in 1975. (Also see the page "Hypnosis".)

====================================================

http://www.creativity.co.uk/creativity/guhen/nlp.htm
======================================
The psychiatrist, the late Milton F. Erickson is known as the father of North American hypnosis. Read him and you will understand why I prefer to use pneumatherapy, not hypnotherapy.

[Hey Hey]

you will understand why I prefer to use pneumatherapy, not hypnotherapy.

Glorified daydreaming?

[Joesus]

I'll put it to you this way. If a person was put in an environment where they were never taught about God from birth, would that individual spontaneously start believing that there was a God?

If a person was never taught anything he/she would seek some understanding of his/her relationship to the world around themselves. Such an understanding comprises both the knowledge of ones Self and What the world around them is. How they both come about, what inspires one to get up and seek answers to questions rather than to act mechanically to simply eat, shit and sleep so the body can be maintained.
The order of the universe and the simple reason it does not fall apart and that we have impulses to gain understanding is because there is God.

Now God becomes an illusion or a delusion if you take a position in belief. But if thru understanding of the Self, one comes upon the discovery of a relationship that exists in the things that happen due to cause and effect. Then one begins to put away such beliefs in chaos and randomness as the very principle of the universe. The more one explores the universe and the Self, the more one understands what has collectively been experienced by those who speak of unity between the Spirit/Self and the manifest world of the body and its surroundings.

There is no coincidence that some relative meaning has been put onto the nature of life and the relationship it has with the world and the universe the world exists in.

People who limit themselves to belief are driven by superstitious fear to reject or attach themselves to certain ideas which put themselves at odds with others of belief and attachment.
Simply to find relief from the compromise of personal belief and to remove themselves from the opposing thoughts and beliefs so they can live their lives comfortably when they can't prove what life is and how it came to be becomes what has been termed survival.

It is easier to win a fight by intimidation of majority or with physical strength against the opposing person of thought than it is to actually prove the absolute nature of reality.

The motivation to seek thru beliefs and gain understanding is inherent and it comes from something deeper than what we are taught about survival. When one finds the answers it can't be contained in a word but it has been described with one such as the word God.

Unfortunately most who know of the word have no knowledge of what brought the word about. Most simply associate the word to a person or groups of persons who use the word and what they stand for in their beliefs. Wanting to protect the personal belief it becomes a personal struggle to keep the personal belief from any kind of degradation that might occur when the personal belief comes into range of the opposing belief, and so it becomes a contest of impressions based on past experience. Rarely does anyone take an objective point of view and or the time to go beyond the foolish hypnotic delusional trance of my belief and your belief.

THE ART OF THE SELF-HYPNOTIC TRANCE
===================================
As I indicated above, it is my opinion everyone should learn something about this art. Why do I say this? Because the ability to go into and out of the trance state is part of our human nature. It is as ubiquitous as the ability to use language. Like language, we are using the trance every day, for good or ill. Therefore, we had better learn how to use it creatively, or it will use us in a destructive way. Ignorance of this phenomenon is not bliss, it is dangerous.

Altered states of consciousness such as the trance are effected by the collected surface impressions of the mind and the personal ego.
Surface impressions are beliefs or the information gleaned from hand me down ideas that begin from birth as our parents impart their idealism and beliefs upon their children. Then the children are taught to absorb more hand me down knowledge in public or private educational systems which have standards based on belief which prompts both a rating system of what is important to know and a censorship of knowledge of what shouldn't be known. After public and private education is absorbed an individual is given the impression that with the knowledge of theory and fact, of belief and opinion, one is ready to move out into the world to build on those beliefs of the past and to do so in a personal way.
Psychologically the personal is heavily influenced by the past impressions of parents and their peers.

This is the trance like state that can be used for evil or for good depending on what the current mores are concerning those ideals and their definitions.
If we use such examples as the Crucifixion of Jesus, the Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition, The current Governments of the world and how they ignore basic rights of the people we get the idea that it is by the choice of peoples and their beliefs that creates the conditions of the trance that people live in daily.

Beyond the trance is a natural state of being such as that of the innocent child. The child which is limited to the extensive exposure of the trance state of belief and opinion, (which is the trance of the ego) at its earliest age of comprehension steps out into a world expressing and feeling love, (if it has not been beaten, starved, sexually abused, or deprived of the ability to freely express and experience life from its birth).
That child steps out into a world without preconceived ideas and or notions based on the hypnotic effects of personal belief and opinion as it is suggested as the reality of life.
Such a state of mind is experienced in Yoga or Union of mind and body with the absolute, which is free of the hypnotic effects of suggestion and the past impressions of experience. In this state there is no possibility to enter into the trance like state of good or evil. It is beyond those concepts.

It is when this state of being is brought thru the trance state, to replace the trance state with this natural state of being, that one becomes attuned to the nature if the Universe. Since the nature of the Universe is neither good nor evil one removes themselves from harmful influences of the trance state and the ideals that put pressure on the psyche to behave within the confines of social mores to carry the burden of good and evil and act properly so as not to disturb the 7 billion personal opinions of what good and evil are.

[Hey Hey]

So, what does this trance do for one, that any other type of activity might not do? If it's so enlightening wouldn't it be taught in schools?

[Joesus]

So, what does this trance do for one, that any other type of activity might not do? If it's so enlightening wouldn't it be taught in schools?

The trance of hand me down knowledge and theory is taught in schools, by those who are not enlightened.

There is no course that I have heard of called "The meaning of life 101" that is taught in any school system.

[Hey Hey]

So, what does this trance do for one, that any other type of activity might not do? If it's so enlightening wouldn't it be taught in schools?

The trance of hand me down knowledge and theory is taught in schools, by those who are not enlightened.

There is no course that I have heard of called "The meaning of life 101" that is taught in any school system.

Case rested ...

[Lindsay]

(Lindsay @ Apr 18, 2009, 04:43 PM) *
you will understand why I prefer to use pneumatherapy, not hypnotherapy.

"Glorified daydreaming?" asks HH.

Daydreaming? Of course, in the best sense of the word.

Milton Erickson, one of the brains behind the neurolinguistic programming movement, practiced, IMO, pneumatology, not psychiatry, or psychology. His work, and the work of others before him, including Mesmer, paved the way for the latest discoveries about the brain.

NEUROPLASTICITY OF THE BRAIN

Neuroplasticity (variously referred to as brain plasticity, cortical plasticity or cortical re-mapping) refers to changes that occur in the organization of the brain as a result of experience. The coining of the term plasticity in regards to neuronal process is attributed to Polish neuroscientist Jerzy Konorski. ...

...Decades of research have now shown that substantial changes occur in the lowest neocortical processing areas, and that these changes can profoundly alter the pattern of neuronal activation in response to experience.

According to the theory of neuroplasticity, thinking, learning, and acting actually change both the brain's physical structure (anatomy) and functional organization (physiology) from top to bottom. Neuroscientists are presently engaged in a reconciliation of critical period studies demonstrating the immutability of the brain after development with the new findings on neuroplasticity, which reveal the mutability of both structural and functional aspects.

A substantial paradigm shift is now under way: Canadian psychiatrist Norman Doidge has in fact stated that neuroplasticity is "one of the most extraordinary discoveries of the twentieth century."
======================================

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/plast.html
http://www.google.com/cse?q=neuroplasticit...t%3A2&sa=Search

[Lindsay]

HH asks

So, what does this trance do for one, that any other type of activity might not do?

The Greek for 'trance' is 'ecstasia'. It means the human-like ability to stand outside and observe the self.

In my opinion, animals--controlled as they are by their drives and natural instincts--and too many so-called human beings, do not have this ability. The more of it we have the more enlightenment and power we have over our limitations, our pain and suffering.

If it's so enlightening wouldn't it be taught in schools?

It is by wise and good teachers, and preachers--the kind who really do inspire their students to want to be self-enlightenment. I had a few. How about you?

[Joesus]

The Greek for 'trance' is 'ecstasia'. It means the human-like ability to stand outside and observe the self.

Trance:

Origin:
1300–50; ME traunce state of extreme dread, swoon, dazed state < MF transe lit., passage (from life to death), deriv. of transir to go across, pass over < L tr�nsīre, equiv. to tr�ns- trans- + īre to go

Trance:

(Gr. ekstasis, from which the word "ecstasy" is derived) denotes the state of one who is "out of himself." Such were the trances of Peter and Paul, Acts 10:10; 11:5; 22:17, ecstasies, "a preternatural, absorbed state of mind preparing for the reception of the vision", (comp. 2 Cor. 12:1-4). In Mark 5:42 and Luke 5:26 the Greek word is rendered "astonishment," "amazement" (comp. Mark 16:8; Acts 3:10).

I doubt that the word Ekstasis was derived from the word trance or that ekstasis means trance as it was derived from transir. It would stand to reason the word transition was derived from ekstasis and the word trance derived from transir to designate a state of limbo, an inbetween state prior to that of the initiation of change.

This state of limbo as it is noted, even in regard to the preparation of vision, is not a conscious state but it is possible to link an altered state of nothingness or limbo as a stepping stone to the awareness of Self or some kind of vision that could possibly be misconstrued to a vision of Self. If Self referral is the means of identification and one had no prior experience of Self how does one know what one is witnessing in a vision?

It is by wise and good teachers, and preachers--the kind who really do inspire their students to want to be self-enlightenment. I had a few. How about you?

It would make sense that one who would know enlightenment, to be able to inspire or lead one to enlightenment. Otherwise the discussion of enlightenment through self referral, without the experience of the Self, would be imagined. This then reduces the discussion of enlightenment to the same level of someone who speaks of God without the experience of God.

History speaks of those, who by self determination, would prescribe to the world who and what God is, to anyone who would listen to them. Leaving those listeners to again imagine what God is, by the descriptions of the imagination of another.

One knows from experience how something of reality can be described and degraded as it passes from one person to the next without direct experience. To imagine something that wasn't experienced, and to speak of an imagined experience never had, could only degrade the intellect to follow thoughts without foundation or reason. This compounded into a collective belief doesn't necessarily make something real.
The democracy of opinion doesn't often change the reality of something, any more than it did when the world believed to be flat, changed our sphere to a pancake...

Good intentions do not make for Truth. There has to be something more substantial than vague similarities derived from good intentions and belief, to make a belief into reason of absolute truth.

To say the word trance means ekstasis and that ekstasis means to witness the Self, is from this definition and example, a bit of a "preachers" stretch.

(Gr. ekstasis, from which the word "ecstasy" is derived) denotes the state of one who is "out of himself." Such were the trances of Peter and Paul, Acts 10:10; 11:5; 22:17

Acts 10:10-15
10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,

11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Acts 11:5-12

5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:

6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.

8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.

9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.

11 And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.

12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:

Acts 22:17-23
17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;

18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me.

19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:

20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.

21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.

22 And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live.

23 And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air,

ecstasies, "a preternatural, absorbed state of mind preparing for the reception of the vision", (comp. 2 Cor. 12:1-4).

preternatural
preâ‹…terâ‹…natâ‹…uâ‹…ral
   /ˌpritərˈnætʃərəl, -ˈnætʃrəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [pree-ter-nach-er-uhl, -nach-ruhl] Show IPA
–adjective
1. out of the ordinary course of nature; exceptional or abnormal: preternatural powers.
2. outside of nature; supernatural.
Origin:
1570–80; < ML praetern�tūr�lis, adj. based on L phrase praeter n�tūram beyond nature. See preter-, natural

Related forms:
pre⋅ter⋅nat⋅u⋅ral⋅ism, pre⋅ter⋅nat⋅u⋅ral⋅i⋅ty  /ˌpritərˌnætʃəˈrælɪti/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [pree-ter-nach-uh-ral-i-tee] Show IPA , pre⋅ter⋅nat⋅u⋅ral⋅ness, noun
preâ‹…terâ‹…natâ‹…uâ‹…ralâ‹…ly, adverb

Synonyms:
1. unusual, extraordinary, unnatural. See miraculous.

2 Cor.12:
1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

In Mark 5:42 and Luke 5:26 the Greek word is rendered "astonishment," "amazement" (comp. Mark 16:8; Acts 3:10).

Mark5:
39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

40 And they laughed him to scorn. But when he had put them all out, he taketh the father and the mother of the damsel, and them that were with him, and entereth in where the damsel was lying.

41 And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise.
42 And straightway the damsel arose, and walked; for she was of the age of twelve years. And they were astonished with a great astonishment.
-------
In the simple analysis, the use of words translated thru belief in the varying degrees of conscious awareness, in association to the original language and its intent, is derived from conjecture when it is not expressed from direct experience.

The Greek, translated from Aramaic, seeks to simplify and extend words in the Aramaic that have no greek translation, to be translated into Greek, so as to give meaning to the believed intentions of expression of what was written originally in the Aramaic.
Similar to this, is the liberal degradation of Eastern scripture as it is translated from Sanskrit to English or some other language.
A single Sanskrit word can have ten different meanings, and it is known for its meaning by how it is used within the sentence and the ability to cognise the experience of its author.
Someone who translates words only by definition using a dictionary, ends up getting something less than what is real or intended.

To gain a clear example we can use a computer generated language translator to translate the 1st part of this post.

The Greek for 'trance' is 'ecstasia'. It means the human-like ability to stand outside and observe the self.

Run through a computer translator program it looks like this when translated into Spanish: (http://translation2.paralink.com/)
El griego para 'el trance' es 'ecstasia'. Esto significa la capacidad parecida a un humano de estar de pie fuera y observar el mí.

Re-translated, back from this Spanish translation into the original English by the very same program that translated the English to Spanish, it comes out to be:
The Greek for ' the situation ' is 'ecstasia'. This means the aptitude similar to a human being to be standing up out and to observe me. This is what happens when there is no consciousness behind the translation.
Being that enlightenment points toward a degree of consciousness, it stands to reason that to speak of advanced consciousness, one would have to have attained a degree of conscious awareness, otherwise all language in reference to enlightenment comes out similar to the computer translation used in the above example.

Such has been the fate of the original intent of scripture in the English derivatives of the Bible when it is translated from Aramaic to Greek, then from Greek to German and from German to English by those who did not know the Original language and how it was used, or who do not know the content of the Original Bible or know and experience the consciousness from which it was dictated.

There are lots of people who take words out of the bible from the Aramaic or the Greek and build off of those words without really knowing the content of the message. This is what Preachers do when they preach to their congregation of God without knowing God other than through belief and opinion. Regardless of how great their intentions are, they build stories from their imaginations of what God is and what God intends for mankind. This is what Jesus often commented on regarding the authority of the Pharisees being no less than delusional. Regardless of their delusion they could not change because they had invested all of their energies to their beliefs. To deny their belief and render it fantasy would be to accept the idea they had wasted their lives in false pursuit of knowledge and authority. You can't teach an old dog new tricks, because the dog has invested itself in what it knows and often dies when what it knows is rendered invalid. It is the ego that kills the dog.

If God was a body, religion and belief are like the feet. The feet carry the body, but without the mind to give it direction the feet move toward a destination unknown.
The mind is like the potential of the un-manifest. When it is clear and not clouded over by beliefs and superstition it produces clear direction as inspiration, and is an abundance of potential which expands experience upon experience rather than reducing it to finite egocentric projections of unconscious thought streams.

When belief gets in the way, the mind makes limited use of the senses of perception and filters all through the memories of the past, and then superimposes it upon potential, reducing it to what was, rather than what is or could be.
Leaving one in a trance like state of self(ego)hypnosis, unconsciously separated from the present moment or the Now.

[Lindsay]

As I said

The Greek for the 'trance' state is 'ecstasia'. It means the human-like ability to stand outside and observe the self.

I forgot to mention: I was speaking of New Testament Greek. See Acts 10:10, and 11:5. Also 22:17, where Paul speaks of being in a state of ecstasy (trance). Without using the word orama (vision) he describes a vision. This vision led him to take the message, not just to Jerusalem, but to the Gentiles. Like Jesus, Paul was a universalist.

Read the story. Following the advice of Paul, it was Peter's ability to stand back and look at the situation that made him change is mind. He stopped being a bigot and became a universalist, like Jesus who had a world vision of what could be.

The interlinear Greek/English text that I have translates Acts 11:5:
kai ... eidon ... en ... estasei ...................................orama ---
and .. I saw ... in ... a trance (a state of ecstasy) a vision (orama)

[Joesus]

As I said

The Greek for 'trance' is 'ecstasia'. It means the human-like ability to stand outside and observe the self.

I forgot to mention: I was speaking of New Testament Greek. See Acts 10:10, and 11:5.
Read the story. Following the advice of Paul, it was Peter's ability to stand back and look at the situation that made him change is mind. He stopped being a bigot and became a universalist, like Jesus who had a world vision of what could be.

http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/mean...translation.htm

From the Aramaic translation of Acts 10:
10. And he became hungry and wished to eat. And while he thought* of what to eat, a wonder came over him.
*10:10 Lit. Ar. idiomatic expression: "As these gained on him."

Acts 11:
5. "While I prayed, I saw in a vision a tray that resembled a [table] cloth, tied by four corners, and lowered from heaven and coming down to me.

Greek NT(Scrivener-1894)
Acts 10:10 egeneto de prospeinoV kai hqelen geusasqai paraskeuazontwn de ekeinwn epepesen ep auton ekstasiV

From a Greek-English dictionary
έκ�ƒ�„α�ƒÎ·= ekstasi = ecstasy, rapture

English to Greek Dictionary
trance = ���€Î½�‰�ƒÎ·, έκ�ƒ�„α�ƒÎ· ypnosi, ekstasi

Greek to English
���€Î½�‰�ƒÎ· = ypnosi = hypnosis

The word ekstasiv can be translated into exstacy and rapture. Trance then can be translated from English into ekstasi when using a dictionary and ypnosi meaning hypnosis which is different than the meaning of ecstasy or rapture in English.

ecâ‹…staâ‹…sy
   /ˈɛkstəsi/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ek-stuh-see] Show IPA
–noun, plural -sies.
1. rapturous delight.
2. an overpowering emotion or exaltation; a state of sudden, intense feeling.
3. the frenzy of poetic inspiration.
4. mental transport or rapture from the contemplation of divine things.
Origin:
1350–1400; ME extasie < MF < ML extasis < Gk ékstasis displacement, trance, equiv. to ek- ec- + stásis stasis

Synonyms:
2. delight, bliss, elation. Ecstasy, rapture, transport, exaltation share a sense of being taken or moved out of one's self or one's normal state, and entering a state of intensified or heightened feeling. Ecstasy suggests an intensification of emotion so powerful as to produce a trancelike dissociation from all but the single overpowering feeling: an ecstasy of rage, grief, love. Rapture shares the power of ecstasy but most often refers to an elevated sensation of bliss or delight, either carnal or spiritual: the rapture of first love. Transport, somewhat less extreme than either ecstasy or rapture, implies a strength of feeling that results in expression of some kind: They jumped up and down in a transport of delight. Exaltation refers to a heady sense of personal well-being so powerful that one is lifted above normal emotional levels and above normal people: wild exaltation at having finally broken the record.

rapâ‹…ture
   /ˈræptʃər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [rap-cher] Show IPA noun, verb -tured, -tur⋅ing.
–noun
1. ecstatic joy or delight; joyful ecstasy.
2. Often, raptures. an utterance or expression of ecstatic delight.
3. the carrying of a person to another place or sphere of existence.
4. the Rapture, Theology . the experience, anticipated by some fundamentalist Christians, of meeting Christ midway in the air upon his return to earth.
5. Archaic . the act of carrying off.
–verb (used with object)
6. to enrapture.
Origin:
1590–1600; rapt + -ure

Related forms:
rapâ‹…tureâ‹…less, adjective

Synonyms:
1. bliss, beatitude; transport, exaltation. See ecstasy.


hypâ‹…noâ‹…sis
   /hɪpˈnoʊsɪs/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [hip-noh-sis] Show IPA
–noun, plural -ses  /-siz/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [-seez] Show IPA .
1. an artificially induced trance state resembling sleep, characterized by heightened susceptibility to suggestion.
2. hypnotism.
Origin:
1875–80; hypn(otic) + -osis


It would be beneficial to become familiar with the context of the teachings of Jesus that the authors of the Bible attempt to glorify. That can't be done without seeking more on the Teachings of Jesus outside of what is solely contained in the few pages of the Bible. Even those philosophers and advocates of Bible study spend time learning of the history of Jesus and the policies of the land to gain a better understanding of what was intended within the scripture.
Obviously with the many varying beliefs that produce different religions thru the insights and visions of the meditative state such as those described in the above scripture, must include those of Buddha or even Joseph Smith who founded the Mormon teachings. All have a personal tale to tell, and those who are amazed by the amazed in amazement tend to come up with some amazing ideas about what is the Truth.

The original Teachings were plagued with the inadequacies of translating words and the descriptions of enlightenment that Jesus was experiencing. The selection committees who were deciding what was relevant to the teaching didn't include all scripture which possibly became more evident to those other than the scholars of spiritual teachings when the Gospel of Thomas was becoming popular. There were those who wanted to add it to the bibles dialogue, and to the Churches that wanted to deny its relevance and authenticity and it added to the drama and the religious belief.

King James didn't do any great service to the Bible either, when he decided to edit it again with the thought that dead authors could be easily replaced by someone who was alive to give greater credit to his Authority using the Bible to serve his own purposes.

I think for anyone who studies both the Eastern and Western philosophies and commits themselves to theosophic discovery it becomes obvious that Jesus wasn't Teaching Hypnosis as we generally define hypnosis to be.

I can understand how someone can call self reflection self hypnosis, but a meditative state is not structured around the introduction of suggestions from the surface of the mind to uncover what is under its already crowded layers of impressions.

If meditation, or prayer, or self hypnosis, uses a thought to direct the mind inward to become more conscious, it is not a state of hypnosis or a trance that one achieves to expand the conscious mind into greater awareness. One does not necessarily forget the past but rather puts it into perspective, once one gains a greater understanding of ones self and how one limits ones self by belief and delusion created thru superstition.
No one can talk themselves into enlightenment. One can gain a greater experience of themselves and move deeper into the experience revealing more and more of ones Self. It is difficult to imagine from the surface of the mind what that more is if you have not experienced it before.

The premise of the Teachings of Jesus is that nothing is new in the "Experience of God" or the "Self". It simply has been ignored thru the application of limited ideas forced into belief from external influences beginning with the parents and the social mores of society. One does not have to suggest or force another idea into the mind to become aware of the Self but rather to still the mind so that it has a chance to become familiar with what was real before all of the stuff society piled on top of it, after the physical birth.

Visions are something that everyone has. They come in dreams, in Peak Experiences described by Abraham Maslow such as when you are standing on top of a mountain or standing at the shore of the Ocean or even during a runners high while jogging. Visions can give one insight towards the truth as it was before the ego became stiff with limitation and belief in the meatsack as the center of all knowledge of reality.
Visions can give one an an alternate viewpoint but not the necessary choice to follow one idea or another. That desire comes from a greater thought. A thought of something greater than what one wants to give up.
It has to exist in order for it to be realized and so those who have realized it stand as the example for those who are thinking about it.

[correlli]

I like to call what I am doing, pneuamatherapy--the spiritual use of hypnotic technique.

I always thought God was quite a useful invention. Keeps people nice and obediant.

Go ahead and expand on how you feel, theologically. Where did you learn this kind of theology?

I'll put it to you this way. If a person was put in an environment where they were never taught about God from birth, would that individual spontaneously start believing that there was a God?

If he had hallucinations then he might become deluded enough to believe there was a god.

The test subject would not have access to stimulates of any kind.