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> hey Laz
veda
post Aug 06, 2003, 05:05 AM
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QUOTE
Hey veda  

I would love to know where you are coming from and what your angle is?

You seem to be pro ascension but anti religion.

You know about buddhism, but you claim to no nothing of the ego and my "experiment" post helped you get started!  

You don't like self righteously intellectually superior people, and yet you can speak the same language and in the same style as Joe.  

I'm confused, help me out

well i decided this is a whole new topic that needs a whole new thread. but dont expect the whole answer, becuz i think it would turn into a really long boring ramble, mosty likely a big bummer to type out all at once and maybe a big bummer to read, so im gonna try to keep it as brief as i can.
im kinda not sure where to start...

"...and yet you can speak the same language and in the same style as Joe..."
hmmm was that ment to be a compliment or a dig at me? not sure if i should be offended or not!  ;D


well like i said b4, my nick was veda before i ever heard about any of this mystical indian stuff, but i guess it was only a matter of time before somebody said soething to me about the vedas (which i have still never read) and the bhagavad gita (which i have read) and i think a person would have to live under a rock to have never heard about the ego or karma or the dali lama or buddha.
so theres that.

and about your experiment, well i dont mean to say i kno nothing about the ego, becuz of course i have one and i seen em in action, just that im not really clear on how to totally let go of it. and it wasnt your experiment that got me started, it was your experiment that made me realize that i already have started. i cant really take credit for that tho, like its a personal accomplishment or anything becuz  it seems like it just happened without me realizing it. of course im still me with my thoghts and worries and mood-swings, but i have gotten a little bit less self-centered i guess you could say, less ego-centric, not becuz i decided to or even wanted to, but it just kinda happened somehow in a slow and subtle way. i dont kno if itll keep going, to be honest, i dont want to give up my me-ness i dont want to lose my personality - that idea is just scary and weird to me. maybe it would mean giving up on my sadness nad depression and fear but would it also mean giving up my uniqueness (which i think is a good thing) and giving up my joys?
so theres that.

like a lot of people, i dont really dig organized religion, it seems that today's so called 'christianity' has totally lost/forgotten the teachings of Christ. jerry fallwell, pat robertson, the pentecostals, people like that are so un-Christ like and bogus it makes me sad and angry what they have done. that is so NOT what christianity is about. this is why i think many of these people (who teach their perverted fake brands of christianity) are in their hearts really atheists. becuz if they read and understood the bible and the teachings of Jesus, and they really did believe, they wouldnt act like that.
so really im not anti-religion, im anti-pseudo-religion. i mean, a philosophy of love, compassion, sharing, embracing good and rejecting evil -who in their right mind would be against that? but self-righteousness, dogmatism and intolerance, these things have nothin to do with love and compassion. anybody that thinks Jesus' teachings had anything to do with self-righteousness and intlerance and dogmatism must be either crazy or evil or been lied to or...well, a total tard.

its not just christianity that got messed up in this way either, i once had a roomate that was into this crazy kind of "buddhism" - i dont remmber the name, 'nichiren shoshu' or something like that - but he would sit in front of this little paper scroll hanging in a fancy little wooden alter-box, and this scroll had some kind of crazy writing on it that he couldnt explain very well, neway hed sit there and chant: " nam myoho renge kyo,  nam myoho renge kyo,  nam myoho renge kyo..." when he told me it was because of this chanting that he had gotten a car and money and stuff, well i knew it was all bogus. i moved out after a month becuz he gave me the creeps, but as a result i did a little reading on buddhism to find out what the real deal was, but i kinda gave up after a while becuz there was so much written about it and so many hard to understand things, and a lot of it was way boring. but the parts about compassion and bhodisatvas and stuff, well again who would not be down with that?
dont even get me started on islam...
oh man already this has gotten long.

so probably what i should have said in the first place: i believe in love. like Bob Marley says in the song jammin, " this love i know exists is the love i cant resist"
i love God and i love Jesus and i love Bob Marley.
i love smokin ganja and i love Haile Selassie.
i kno that every human being is my sister or my brother or is related to me in some way, and i have love and compassion for them, and every animal and plant and living thing. i love trees and plants and little green growing things, and yeasts and bacterias, and call me a hypocrite if you want, but im not so sure how i feel about viruses, even tho i kno theyre part of creation and the natural world.
i love you, Laz. (and to anyone else that is reading this, i love you too, tho i may not kno who you are, i kno youre a person that deserves some of my love and compassion smile.gif )

so thats all i wanna say right now, youll have to decide for yourself what catagory i fit into- stoner hippy treehugger,
or coptic christian or rasta-christo-farian or wacko nutcase or whatevr.
if you wanna kno anything more just axe and ill do my best to answer, but when it comes to this kinda stuff, i have a lot more questions than answers.

haha, i was gonna try to keep this brief
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joe
post Aug 06, 2003, 05:38 AM
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Christ taught that the world was created around praise, gratitude and love.
Those that heard the message and repeat it are often accused of being preachers.
IT is only because the ego does not want to give up its selfish need to have the world revolve around its own ideas that it resents the words or practices of others, and so it cries out to remove what gets in the way of its own voice so that it may be the only voice, a singular voice that tells only one story.
The world is too big and the universe too expansive to try and hold it to such limitation. But the ego will always try to keep itself safe in its own limited perspectives.

All religions and beliefs are branches of the same tree and the way to realize this is to go to the root of all of them.
Even atheism is a branch of the tree. The idea that there is no God is an idea that holds God as an idea in disbelief rather than belief yet if there wasn't a God there would be no belief or disbelief for man does not concieve of something that is not viable or does not have a reality behind the idea.
What we are afraid of, what we reject in criticism, we have no room for in our world because it is not big enough to accept as part of the whole and some go so far as to try and violently remove what they fear and reject.
If one could get over themselves long enough to see that nothing can kill the infinite self, the soul, the isness that created and is in you there is no threat and no reason for or against. All things just are. The infinite is not finite, anything that can be thought of or dreamed can be manifest. There are things that have not yet been realized because the mind is too distracted with what it worries about as being real and threatening. This is what keeps the mind locked on the surface, and why we use only 5% of our potential.
Humans in their ego will fight to argue about their limitations rather than expand in uniting all of creation.
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veda
post Aug 06, 2003, 09:17 AM
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[img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/242147/gary1.jpg[/img]
whatchoo talkin bout, bubba-joe?
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Agnostic4Now
post Aug 06, 2003, 12:33 PM
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Ohhh veda, you so crazy!

Christ said a lot of things, a lot of which can influence people negatively.
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veda
post Aug 06, 2003, 02:46 PM
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yeah me so crazy.

like what did He say that could affect people negativly? gimmie some quotes. prove it scientifically ;D

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Laz
post Aug 06, 2003, 06:54 PM
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Hey Veda  :)

Thank you for sharing, your honesty does you credit   wink.gif

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Agnostic4Now
post Aug 07, 2003, 12:54 PM
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 Well, for one thing, there isn't substantial historical evidence to prove Christ even existed. All accounts of his life were written quite a while after he "died", and thus are hearsay accounts that are often fraudulent or cannot be accounted for. You'd think an individual who made such historical impact woud have many contemporary writings concerning him, but Jesus had none.

 To quote the Bible, however, the words of the great Christo himself:

 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword.
   For I am come to SET A MAN AT VARIANCE AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND THE DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND THE DAUGHTER IN LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER IN LAW.
    And A MAN'S FOES SHALL BE THEY OF HIS OWN HOUSEHOLD."
                           -Matthew 10:34-6 (KJV)

 "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

                           -Luke 14:26 (KJV)

 "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."

                            -Luke 19:27 (KJV)

 In Matthew, Jesus calls Peter Satan(!), just five verses after he tells him to build his church, simply because he questions that he will be crucified. Forgiveness? Yeah, right:
 
  "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church..."
                             
                             -Matthew 16:18 (KJV)

  "But he turned, and said unto Peter. Get thee behind me Satan: thou art an offence unto me. for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of man."

                             -Matthew 16:23 (KJV)

  Using the Bible, it is quite easy to prove that his second coming will not happen as prophesized, for he says that some of his disciples who are with him as he speaks will be there when the event occurs:

  "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

                                  -Matthew 16:28 (KJV)

  Would you like more evidence from the scripture? These quotes are quite in context and speak for themselves.
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joe
post Aug 07, 2003, 02:30 PM
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Got any Idea of what meaning lies behind the words?

What has been written outside of the mainstream belief systems are usually ignored. It's kinda like the school system. Some government body decides what is important to teach the good folks so that they stay good folks.

It would appear due to your disbelief that he really existed in the first place that any written history could be suspect.
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Agnostic4Now
post Aug 07, 2003, 05:03 PM
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 Well, aside from having nonsense experiences that I would have to truly believe in, do you have any evidence he existed?

 As I said, the meaning is right there. There isn't anything behind, it's simply right there, black and white. If Jesus existed, his message of forgiveness is hypocritical, as he specifically preaches not to forgive those who have gone against his cause.

 I still don't even understand why you said "being a skeptic is good" in my thread, because you're obviously not questioning anything, and simply believing in something that has no scientific substance. Jesus is simply an idea. It's simply silly that no record was written of Jesus in his own time, if he so in fluenced society that his crucifixion involved a mass gathering of people against him.
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joe
post Aug 07, 2003, 05:50 PM
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Your lack of understanding and interpretation is your proof I take it.
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Agnostic4Now
post Aug 07, 2003, 05:53 PM
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 The proof is the lack of proof. Unless I'm "misunderstanding", and you have some that isn't based on faith? Because than it's void anyway.
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joe
post Aug 07, 2003, 06:03 PM
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You mistake your inability to experience what I do as your proof.
Most children feel the same way about their parents reality. What they cannot know or experience is not real to them and visa versa.
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Agnostic4Now
post Aug 07, 2003, 06:07 PM
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 I told you, if the experience relies on faith in the unknown, as you have said it does, then it is void.
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joe
post Aug 07, 2003, 06:17 PM
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Yeah I heard you. Your interpretation is that what you know is what you know and anything beyond what you know can't be known by you unless it is known by you.
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Agnostic4Now
post Aug 07, 2003, 06:21 PM
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Or to paraphrase:

What is proven is what is known and what is unknown can be known once it is proven.

Duh.  :smile.gif
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joe
post Aug 07, 2003, 06:35 PM
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I like, what is unknown can be known if one simply allows it even without proof. The proof is in the eating.
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veda
post Aug 07, 2003, 07:10 PM
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i just dont even kno what to say at this point...
seems like every thread in here is the agnostic4now and bubbajoe byotchfest... which is fine i guess, if thats what you guyz wanna do, but already im gettin kinda tired of it.

ya kno, i was thinking i might start a thread titled "a seed of love" or something like that, work in the mustard seed parable possibly... talk about acts of kindness,  maybe mention karma...

but i dont want it to turn into another joe and agnos pissyfight, cuz its not fun for me anymore, which is why i find myself saying:

[img]http://130.89.160.183/jig/fora/godmakeitstop.jpg[/img]
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Agnostic4Now
post Aug 07, 2003, 10:52 PM
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Actually, his last post seems to be agreeing with me.

Might be a crazy religious trick, though. ;D

Go check the Perceptions thread. I don't start this crap.
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veda
post Aug 08, 2003, 03:43 AM
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im not interested in who started crap im interested in whos gonna stop participating in crap.

about those quotes:
i think maybe "quite in context" means something different to me than it does to you. i mean, these statements werent made totally out of the blue. for example, at the beginning of Mat.16, Jesus says watch out for the leavening of the pharisees and the sadducees. was He talking about bread? you have to read the whole thing to kno it wasnt about bread.
not only that, but i think it might be a good idea to look at some other translations besides the king james one, otherwise you might miss some important information.  

so could you explain in your own words what those quotes mean to you?  how do they relate to other things like 'turn the other cheek' ?
and how, in the context of loving your enemy, they might have a negative effect on someone?
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joe
post Aug 08, 2003, 04:22 AM
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You could also look at this board and what is on it as the struggle between the holy spirit and the ego.
This battle has existed since man fell from grace.

The stories of this range from Lucifer as an angel of God and his choice to create his own kingdom, or the story of Adam and Eve and the story of Eves bite into the apple or the taking from the tree of knowledge, or tree of duality, or even Indra the king of the Gods and his choice to experience ignorance and life as a pig.

Are you getting tired of your world Veda? Will you do as all others do to condemn what you disagree with, change what you don't like for what you do like?

The infinite patience of God to continue to give is part of the contrast that exists so that man can see the choices that man makes.
You suggest some other make the choice to walk away and to stop the argument and it is you that needs to walk away from the attachment to hold it in belief that it is real, abusive, or even disagreeable. Only by doing this can you see something different in front of you, only by doing this can you put one down for the other.
Otherwise you will continue to run into this time and time again for it is in your vision, this discord and and this struggle. To remove it from your sight is to see something greater, not to believe in it and try and remove it from physical sight, this only drives the reality of it deeper into the psyche and into belief.

Rather than praying to something outside of yourself it was Christ who suggested that the kingdom is within, not outside.
When will people stop looking for something outside of themselves to change what they hold as truth on the inside?

On another note regarding the perceptions thread, I see our moderator has judged and censored based on his own judgments of what is pertinent, right and wrong.
This is the example of human intervention into his own creation. Rather than learn from his choices to perpetuate ignorance and change, he continues to enliven his reality by choice to remain ignorant and perpetuate evil, by making choices from this lesser reality.
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veda
post Aug 08, 2003, 08:06 AM
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bubba joe, thank you and bless you smile.gif

i will do my best to let go of my attachment to the belief that your exchanges with agnos are nothing more than pissy pointless bickering.

i will do my best to let go of my attachment to the belief that your tone is derisive and contentious.

i will do my best to let go of my attachment to the belief that repeatedly telling agnos that he is ignorant will not help him in any meaningful way.

i will do my best to let go of my attachment to the view that your argument is objectionable.

when i am ready to discuss this further, or if i need more of your compassionate help in letting go of these attachments, i will let you kno. untill then, im adding your name to my ignore list, so that i wont be tempted to react to your posts according to the delusions of my foolish ego.
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joe
post Aug 08, 2003, 11:02 AM
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 Way to go. Were right back to the bread theory on leavening.
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Agnostic4Now
post Aug 08, 2003, 12:20 PM
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 A very wonderful use of sarcasm. ;D

 The only way for me to stop is to accept he is right (which I don't), ignore him, or leave the board (both of which I won't do).

 I'm trying not to bicker, and just simply give my points and defend myself.

 But it's hard when you're constantly being attacked.

 The real problem here is that the bible can be taken a lot of ways, and you can defend Jesus by taking it in your context, instead of the context given. The fact remains that his existence altogether cannot be historically proven, which does not prove he didn't exist. It just shows that beliefs in him are based on faith.

 That being said, I'll stop talking about it if you guys do, since we're going way too far off topic.
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joe
post Aug 08, 2003, 04:48 PM
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QUOTE
 I'm trying not to bicker, and just simply give my points and defend myself.  

 But it's hard when you're constantly being attacked.


Ever play with chinese finger cuffs?
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veda
post Aug 08, 2003, 06:20 PM
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"That being said, I'll stop talking about it if you guys do, since we're going way too far off topic. "

okay, im down with that. if you dont wanna talk about Jesus or the bible we dont have to. i get the feelin you dont really want to neway.
way too far off topic? uh, what was the topic?
oh yeah, the topic is me. Me me me!
youre watching the veda channel, all veda all the time!
oops, there goes that ego again.

well since this is my thread about me and where im comin from and where im at then i get to say whatevr i want, and i wanna talk about me and joe and you (agno) for a minute.
of course, i wont be able to hear anything joe says, if he wants to make a point or a clarification, so thats kinda unfortunate, but im not really interested in what joe has to say now, im more concerned with what hes already said, and my reactions to it.

becuz i wasnt really being sarcastic. i really do think his tone is derisive and contentious. i really honestly dont think that telling someone they are ignorant is a good way to help them to let go of ignorance.
honestly, agnos, i do think youre ignorant, and so am i, and so are a lot of people that i love and respect. but telling me im really dumb, and saying it in a mean way doesnt help me wise up. thats not the voice of compassion.
but this:
"...You suggest some other make the choice to walk away and to stop the argument and it is you that needs to walk away from the attachment to hold it in belief that it is real, abusive, or even disagreeable. "
makes me stop and say, ok, maybe the problem isnt in what joe and agno are doing here, the problem is my problem, maybe im looking at the hand instead of where the finger is pointing.
is that whats goin on here?
shit. i got things to do.

id like to leave you with some quotes from a different forum on a different board by different people, - about a different subject:

quote:
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The Rev
If you got goodness, share it.
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quote:
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ZenSkin
It may be difficult but don't feed the hate.
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quote:
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kosh
By and large,the measure if a persons spiritual evolvement is not so much which religeon they follow,but how developed their heart is...compassion,tollerance,forgiveness...everything but self rightousness and dogma.
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quote:
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Holo
...hearing people like that makes me too just want to ignore their existence.
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quote:
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421der
Don't spend a lot of time dwelling on what makes hate work and why, either. Hate is the opposite of reason I think. Once you sit down and reason with those who hate, you can make them see what it is that they hate. Unless of course they hit you in the head with a brick.
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quote:
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Sweetsativa
FIRST peace within yourself, your house.... that must be first.
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quote:
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THCPrincess
I feel it's 1) a control issue or 2) an insecurity issue, why else get so angry that others don't share in your beliefs?
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quote:
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Logernaut
I got to give him some sympathy though, he's a hardcore right-wing fundamentalist Christian.
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quote:
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Sans & 1/2
It's kinda like you're thrown into the wilderness and there are maps all over the place but you have no idea if they're right.
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quote:
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Edge
Ugh, I need to get the fuck out of this house...
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joe
post Aug 09, 2003, 04:00 AM
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The common misperception is if it aint nice, if it aint sweet and it don't feel good, it aint God.

Blah!!! Ego and pride will always find a reason to deny what it don't like and follow what it does, which is why change is slow.

True compassion offers a hand up out of the hole, it does not require joining the other in it and making them feel better about it.
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Agnostic4Now
post Aug 09, 2003, 08:53 AM
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 Geez, veda, when I said you were being sarcastic, I was joking! I'm not trying to be mean, and if you're taking what I'm saying that way, please don't! ;D

It's not your problem, it's a certain preacher's problem, because he can't settle down.

The ego will also try to preach the same thing to others over and over, joe, even though it's not accepting that they don't really care. I know you consider it ignorant, but we've heard what you've had to say, we've all thought about it, and it's not something we want.

Maybe this is why change is so slow for you?  ???
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joe
post Aug 09, 2003, 02:33 PM
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Well if Veda can so easily misinterpret what you have to say it would stand to reason you haven't really heard or understood what I have said, and assume from a limited perspective or a lack of greater understanding.
What do you know of the differences in Ego and spirit to tell me what Ego is and does?

Also if you didn't really care I don't think you would've  made this statement...

QUOTE
 The only way for me to stop is to accept he is right (which I don't), ignore him, or leave the board (both of which I won't do).
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Agnostic4Now
post Aug 10, 2003, 06:07 AM
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 We don't care as in, we are not interested in joining your cause.

Your first statement makes absolutely no sense. You're mixing apples and oranges again.
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Laz
post Aug 10, 2003, 07:28 AM
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Hey Joe,

You have my deepest sympathy. Spending all day  teaching Ascension; being compassionate and honest with ignorant students must really get you down.

Nothing better than to kick back of an evening, and let rip with all the hate and frustration built up inside you, because you have questions like the rest of us, you doubt your path, like the rest of us.

Don't get me wrong here, I do not hate you, I respect your determination and knowledge. It's also good that Agno and veda hate? you, as you know if you can't be liked, hate is much better than indifference.

This talk of people leaving reminds me again of Synchronox and PiratJenny. I miss them, there aren't as many voices here any more. I hope that more poeple don't leave on account of your nature.

I'm sure now that if I was to meet you in the street I would not hate you but I would like you because the persona you present here is not the real you.
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