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> Who would you be without your knowledge?
PANCHO
post Mar 29, 2012, 06:45 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Mar 19, 2012, 05:07 PM) *

If we both create an image of myself, which one is less real or more real, or are they equally real, or equally unreal?


The warped window of perception is made with concepts. What one sees depends on how one sees. Reality is also a concept. Even physical objects are represented in the mind by creating images and concepts. So the question is not what is real but what is practical. Around an object there can constructed infinite concepts of it, but maybe one is more practical/favorable than other. The concept is not the object and you are not the image of yourself.
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Joesus
post Mar 30, 2012, 05:40 AM
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Then we could assume any references you make toward me, or the authority of the internet that you might use to bolster your belief in what anyone is made of, is strictly an idea of what is useful to you.
A possible warped window of perception.
Without the knowledge or experience of where stars, the universe or yourself comes from, all of your assumptions are based on what you believe others might tell you, or what you would make up in your imagination that might fit into your perceptions of yourself and reality in agreement with the majority?
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PANCHO
post Mar 30, 2012, 06:05 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Mar 30, 2012, 05:40 AM) *

Then we could assume any references you make toward me, or the authority of the internet that you might use to bolster your belief in what anyone is made of, is strictly an idea of what is useful to you.


That is only what you see and what is useful to you. You wrote the quote.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Mar 30, 2012, 05:40 AM) *

Without the knowledge or experience of where stars, the universe or yourself comes from, all of your assumptions are based on what you believe others might tell you, or what you would make up in your imagination that might fit into your perceptions of yourself and reality in agreement with the majority?


Sorry. Don't understand the Q.
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Joesus
post Mar 31, 2012, 06:38 AM
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QUOTE(PANCHO @ Mar 30, 2012, 02:05 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Mar 30, 2012, 05:40 AM) *

Without the knowledge or experience of where stars, the universe or yourself comes from, all of your assumptions are based on what you believe others might tell you, or what you would make up in your imagination that might fit into your perceptions of yourself and reality in agreement with the majority?


Sorry. Don't understand the Q.
QUOTE(Joesus @ Mar 30, 2012, 05:40 AM) *

Then we could assume any references you make toward me, or the authority of the internet that you might use to bolster your belief in what anyone is made of, is strictly an idea of what is useful to you.


That is only what you see and what is useful to you. You wrote the quote.

If you didn't understand the question, it's likely you didn't understand the quote. You would have to be able to see what is useful in others as well as yourself to fully understand yourself and your relationship with the world around you. Otherwise you would be blind to the world around you, and the world would not recognize you. There is a relationship between you and the world around you that is useful, and it's real.

In reference to your statement that understanding is unreal:
IF you have understanding (that is real), of reality and of language and communication, understanding is useful to the recognition of ones relationships to/within the world, and its relationship to you.
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PANCHO
post Apr 02, 2012, 05:20 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Mar 31, 2012, 06:38 AM) *

If you didn't understand the question, it's likely you didn't understand the quote.


Nope. your "if A then B" looks too well chosen. Next time, try to think harder.


QUOTE(Joesus @ Mar 31, 2012, 06:38 AM) *

In reference to your statement that understanding is unreal:
IF you have understanding (that is real), of reality and of language and communication, understanding is useful to the recognition of ones relationships to/within the world, and its relationship to you.


I am already growing calluses on my fingers from answering the same thing over and over. The process of understanding happens (neurons fire) but the content-result is not real. All understanding is virtual. The concepts are not real. They are only ideas of things you create in your mind. Whatever idea you create, it depends on you. This applies to everybody including me. The "truer" way of experiencing "reality" would be by not thinking as it would not originate by a mental point of view.
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Joesus
post Apr 02, 2012, 07:03 AM
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QUOTE(PANCHO @ Apr 02, 2012, 01:20 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Mar 31, 2012, 06:38 AM) *

If you didn't understand the question, it's likely you didn't understand the quote.


Nope. your "if A then B" looks too well chosen. Next time, try to think harder.

Choose better? rolleyes.gif

QUOTE(PANCHO @ Apr 02, 2012, 01:20 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Mar 31, 2012, 06:38 AM) *

In reference to your statement that understanding is unreal:
IF you have understanding (that is real), of reality and of language and communication, understanding is useful to the recognition of ones relationships to/within the world, and its relationship to you.


I am already growing calluses on my fingers from answering the same thing over and over. The process of understanding happens (neurons fire) but the content-result is not real. All understanding is virtual. The concepts are not real. They are only ideas of things you create in your mind. Whatever idea you create, it depends on you. This applies to everybody including me. The "truer" way of experiencing "reality" would be by not thinking as it would not originate by a mental point of view.
The results of your non-thinking are self evident in your inability to comprehend the statement and the question. More than that....IF you're complaining about callouses, who's making the choice to work your fingers into a frenzy? Maybe your non-thoughts aren't well chosen or thought out. smile.gif
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PANCHO
post Apr 02, 2012, 09:16 AM
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QUOTE
Whoever does not understand Joesus does not have the capability to comprehend Reality


QUOTE
Joesus knows the real shit. If you don't agree you don't know shit and are inferior


QUOTE
With quick pops of IF...THEN statements, Joesus can straighten anybody to a path he knows and is the master. Ask him and he'll help you enter a marvelous world where he sits on the throne imparting knowledge


JOESUS, JOESUS, JOESUS!

That is the reality where Joesus likes to live smile.gif He worked his brain hard to get there
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Joesus
post Apr 02, 2012, 04:20 PM
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QUOTE(PANCHO @ Apr 02, 2012, 05:16 PM) *

QUOTE
Whoever does not understand Joesus does not have the capability to comprehend Reality


QUOTE
Joesus knows the real shit. If you don't agree you don't know shit and are inferior


QUOTE
With quick pops of IF...THEN statements, Joesus can straighten anybody to a path he knows and is the master. Ask him and he'll help you enter a marvelous world where he sits on the throne imparting knowledge


JOESUS, JOESUS, JOESUS!

That is the reality where Joesus likes to live smile.gif He worked his brain hard to get there


Bearing the following in mind.... and according to your own prescription, regarding the comprehension of reality..
QUOTE(PANCHO @ Apr 02, 2012, 01:20 PM) *

All understanding is virtual. The concepts are not real. They are only ideas of things you create in your mind. Whatever idea you create, it depends on you. This applies to everybody including me.
it would appear you have created for yourself...... a something.
How do you suppose you got there? Why did you want to get where you are with this?
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PANCHO
post Apr 03, 2012, 06:18 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Apr 02, 2012, 04:20 PM) *

QUOTE(PANCHO @ Apr 02, 2012, 01:20 PM) *

All understanding is virtual. The concepts are not real. They are only ideas of things you create in your mind. Whatever idea you create, it depends on you. This applies to everybody including me.
it would appear you have created for yourself...... a something.
How do you suppose you got there? Why did you want to get where you are with this?


Everything is so peaceful there. And so, why would anybody not want to be there? If you ever came from there, even if you were there for one minute, you would understand. But as of now, this all sounds "unreal" to you. Maybe one day you'll be there.

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Joesus
post Apr 03, 2012, 06:57 AM
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QUOTE(PANCHO @ Apr 03, 2012, 02:18 PM) *

Everything is so peaceful there. And so, why would anybody not want to be there? If you ever came from there, even if you were there for one minute, you would understand. But as of now, this all sounds "unreal" to you. Maybe one day you'll be there.

If your talking about growing calluses on your fingers from answering the same thing over and over, and non-thoughts of:
Whoever does not understand Joesus does not have the capability to comprehend Reality.

Joesus knows the real shit. If you don't agree you don't know shit and are inferior.

With quick pops of IF...THEN statements, Joesus can straighten anybody to a path he knows and is the master. Ask him and he'll help you enter a marvelous world where he sits on the throne imparting knowledge
JOESUS, JOESUS, JOESUS!



Then, more power to your peaceful environment. rolleyes.gif
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PANCHO
post Apr 03, 2012, 10:30 AM
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looks like you made progress. Congratulations
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Trip like I do
post Apr 04, 2012, 02:24 PM
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in a purposeless universe
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PANCHO
post Apr 05, 2012, 05:34 AM
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Once you figure out what is "reality," you are immune to any disappointment. Once you stop believing in "reality" and its dramas, there is nothing to defend. Even a purposeless universe looks beautiful.

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PANCHO
post Apr 06, 2012, 10:20 AM
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There are two pills. They give the choice between the blissful ignorance of illusion (BLUE) or the embracing and sometimes painful truth of "reality" (RED). Which one would you take?

BLUE:

Believe what you See

RED:

See how you Believe
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Flex
post Apr 06, 2012, 01:05 PM
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Enter the Matrix
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hamsterdance
post Apr 09, 2012, 09:30 PM
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QUOTE(PANCHO @ Feb 08, 2012, 09:01 AM) *

Who would you be without your knowledge? Do you identify your self with the knowledge about you (knowledge includes awareness) ? Does your knowledge about you change?



I'm still trying to find out.
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PANCHO
post Apr 20, 2012, 04:42 AM
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QUOTE(hamsterdance @ Apr 09, 2012, 09:30 PM) *

QUOTE(PANCHO @ Feb 08, 2012, 09:01 AM) *

Who would you be without your knowledge? Do you identify your self with the knowledge about you (knowledge includes awareness) ? Does your knowledge about you change?



I'm still trying to find out.


Would you still exist without your thoughts? Is the result of "finding out" a thought?
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code buttons
post Apr 20, 2012, 05:23 PM
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QUOTE(PANCHO @ Apr 20, 2012, 04:42 AM) *

QUOTE(hamsterdance @ Apr 09, 2012, 09:30 PM) *

QUOTE(PANCHO @ Feb 08, 2012, 09:01 AM) *

Who would you be without your knowledge? Do you identify your self with the knowledge about you (knowledge includes awareness) ? Does your knowledge about you change?



I'm still trying to find out.


Would you still exist without your thoughts? Is the result of "finding out" a thought?

You mean like an unborn human fetus? If a fetus doesn't think, therefore it is not... (?)
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PANCHO
post Apr 21, 2012, 04:05 AM
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If you were to stop thinking, would you still be yourself?

If not, then, do you think you are a thought?

If you find that you are a thought, then, who are you when you are not thinking?


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Joesus
post Apr 21, 2012, 07:09 AM
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QUOTE(PANCHO @ Apr 21, 2012, 12:05 PM) *

If you were to stop thinking, would you still be yourself?

What self are you referring to? The one the ego identifies with, the self your mother sees you as, or the self with the face you had before you were born?
QUOTE(PANCHO @ Apr 21, 2012, 12:05 PM) *

If not, then, do you think you are a thought?

Consciousness is synonymous with thought and awareness. To recognize yourself without thought and awareness would be a non sequitur
QUOTE(PANCHO @ Apr 21, 2012, 12:05 PM) *

If you find that you are a thought, then, who are you when you are not thinking?

Depends on your point of reference, be it ego deluded by its immersion into the relative or the ego as it serves the immortal self. Consciousness of the ego is not always tuned to the thoughts of the Self, in fact the Self/Soul does plenty of thinking in the dream state, and the waking state that the ego is unaware of.
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PANCHO
post Apr 24, 2012, 03:43 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Apr 21, 2012, 07:09 AM) *

QUOTE(PANCHO @ Apr 21, 2012, 12:05 PM) *

If you were to stop thinking, would you still be yourself?

What self are you referring to? The one the ego identifies with, the self your mother sees you as, or the self with the face you had before you were born?


The verbal self.

QUOTE(PANCHO @ Apr 21, 2012, 12:05 PM) *

If not, then, do you think you are a thought?

QUOTE(Joesus @ Apr 21, 2012, 07:09 AM) *

Consciousness is synonymous with thought and awareness. To recognize yourself without thought and awareness would be a non sequitur



You could recognize yourself without words, maybe using other parts of the brain. It could be a thought but a different type. Has a single cell organism without a brain the capability to sense its presence and seek its well being? At one point you were a single cell organism that then multiplied.


QUOTE(PANCHO @ Apr 21, 2012, 12:05 PM) *

If you find that you are a thought, then, who are you when you are not thinking?

QUOTE(Joesus @ Apr 21, 2012, 07:09 AM) *

Depends on your point of reference, be it ego deluded by its immersion into the relative or the ego as it serves the immortal self. Consciousness of the ego is not always tuned to the thoughts of the Self, in fact the Self/Soul does plenty of thinking in the dream state, and the waking state that the ego is unaware of.


what is the reference of the immortal self?
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Joesus
post Apr 24, 2012, 06:56 AM
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QUOTE(PANCHO @ Apr 24, 2012, 11:43 AM) *

The verbal self.

Not the thinking self but rather the talking self. So your question has changed to:
If you were to stop talking, would you still be yourself?
QUOTE(PANCHO @ Apr 24, 2012, 11:43 AM) *

You could recognize yourself without words, maybe using other parts of the brain. It could be a thought but a different type.

So the question has changed?
QUOTE(PANCHO @ Apr 24, 2012, 11:43 AM) *
Has a single cell organism without a brain the capability to sense its presence and seek its well being?

You would have to understand consciousness, and the consciousness of a cell to answer that question, as well as awareness, and any differences you want to put on top of awareness and thought.
QUOTE(PANCHO @ Apr 24, 2012, 11:43 AM) *
At one point you were a single cell organism that then multiplied.

As an immortal conscious soul, you have been born and dead many many times. The collection of cells that you organize into forms, or the body your soul wears, has its/their own consciousness.
QUOTE(PANCHO @ Apr 24, 2012, 11:43 AM) *

what is the reference of the immortal self?
The You that never dies, or the you that thinks the you into form, that types questions on this board, as a conscious (or unconscious) creation.
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PANCHO
post Apr 26, 2012, 04:17 AM
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There are thoughts you are verbally conscious about. These are created by your verbal self.

There are thoughts you are only conscious about, unspoken. Like for example when staring without looking.

There are thoughts you are not conscious about.


What type is your consciousness/awareness?
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Joesus
post Apr 26, 2012, 06:31 AM
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QUOTE(PANCHO @ Apr 26, 2012, 12:17 PM) *

What type is your consciousness/awareness?

In other words...How does your ego measure and define itself?
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PANCHO
post Apr 27, 2012, 03:51 AM
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people live in a world of relative understanding. their world revolve around the verbal thought of identity. As opposed to things and laws of nature, thought is formless and not subjected to physical forces. Thus, it has the property of creativity and art, which is where the verbal self come from. Thoughts create illusions like the one of being. It is a work of fiction.

What side of the brain do you think with? The left side creates rationalizations
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Joesus
post Apr 27, 2012, 07:07 AM
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QUOTE(PANCHO @ Apr 27, 2012, 11:51 AM) *

people live in a world of relative understanding.

People will assume that determination is inclusive of yourself. After all, you've pretty much defended and stood by your idea that understanding is unreal.
QUOTE(PANCHO @ Apr 27, 2012, 11:51 AM) *

their world revolve around the verbal thought of identity. As opposed to things and laws of nature, thought is formless and not subjected to physical forces. Thus, it has the property of creativity and art, which is where the verbal self come from. Thoughts create illusions like the one of being. It is a work of fiction.

That's quite a scramble of thoughts you have verbalized (in writing) . cool.gif
I could follow your verbalized thoughts with the idea that your verbal thought is a work of fiction, and that there is thought which is spoken and thought that is unspoken, yet thought is still a thought.

Nature is a physical expression or force that emerges from the formless nature of consciousness, just as people are an expression of that same consciousness, as is every expression of art or creativity.

Every relative expression of man is one of nature or of the nature of man in his current state of conscious activity. All of the universe is interconnected.
QUOTE(PANCHO @ Apr 27, 2012, 11:51 AM) *

What side of the brain do you think with? The left side creates rationalizations

Man uses both hemispheres. Some tend to lean towards one or the other during certain activities but no one thinks with just one hemisphere only.
For example, it is said that the logical or left hemisphere is dominant in man where the right hemisphere which is emotional and intuitive is dominant in women, but that is a generalization and not an absolute statement. A man can be right brain dominant in activity and a woman left brain dominant in activity.

There have been studies with people who meditate, and it has been found that meditation has activated both hemispheres into equal and balanced activity. There also have been sleep studies, where it was observed.. those who were primarily left hemisphere dominant in activity become right hemisphere active in dreaming. The intuitive centers become highly activated where they seemed to be measured inactive, while awake.

There is no fact that I know of that states a person is obliged to be left or right hemisphere dominant, or that brain activity can't shift from different areas of the brain at any time.

So I'm not sure where you want to go with this idea of yours.

I'll use your quote:
QUOTE(PANCHO @ Mar 29, 2012, 02:45 PM) *


The warped window of perception is made with concepts. What one sees depends on how one sees.


Do you apply the rule as you have stated in the above quote, to the questions you ask and the statements you make concerning the relative precepts of humanity?

Do you approach all of life thru the warped window of your unreal understanding? IF so, what illusions will you recognize as illusions and which illusions will you identify with as your self.
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PANCHO
post Apr 27, 2012, 10:13 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Apr 27, 2012, 07:07 AM) *

Do you apply the rule as you have stated in the above quote, to the questions you ask and the statements you make concerning the relative precepts of humanity?

Do you approach all of life thru the warped window of your unreal understanding? IF so, what illusions will you recognize as illusions and which illusions will you identify with as your self.


Yes. Yes. Verbal thoughts are from illusions. Nobody is excluded.
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