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> What Joesus is up to, a philosophical exploration
Dan
post Feb 17, 2012, 12:46 PM
Post #31


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From: Sri Danananda
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 17, 2012, 10:46 AM) *

From the same thread...


http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?s=&sh...indpost&p=64694

Brings back fond memories.... smile.gif

I like the part where Code threatens to sic Shawn on Lucid Dream. If only I wasn't so busy gettin' hitched, I would have thrown a few more punches myself.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 17, 2012, 10:46 AM) *

Perhaps you need to find a real question in order to get the answer you are looking for, unless you are just full of questions without any interest in answers.

How about these "real" simple questions: Why do you continue to post to this board? Is it proselytization, entertainment, compulsion, what? and, How many boards (other than Ishaya boards) do you make regular posts on?
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Joesus
post Feb 17, 2012, 01:59 PM
Post #32


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QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 08:46 PM) *

If only I wasn't so busy gettin' hitched, I would have thrown a few more punches myself.

Priorities.
I guess you finally caught someone and figured to keep what you caught, rather than to continue to chase after me. Only now I guess what you caught isn't enough any more. The honeymoon must be over...
QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 08:46 PM) *

How about these "real" simple questions: Why do you continue to post to this board? Is it proselytization, entertainment, compulsion, what?

Compulsive entertainment? wink.gif
Actually I believe we crossed this bridge already, but I guess becoming a family man with all those responsibilities tends to cloud the memory.
QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 08:46 PM) *

How many boards (other than Ishaya boards) do you make regular posts on?

Sorry that would be confidential... not looking for any groupies. wub.gif

Here, I have some questions for you:

Can you cry under water?

How important does a person have to be before they are considered assassinated instead of just
murdered?

Why do you have to 'put your two cents in'... but it's only a 'penny for your thoughts'? Where's that
extra penny going to?

Once you're in heaven, do you get stuck wearing the clothes you were buried in for eternity?

Why does a round pizza come in a square box?

What disease did cured ham actually have?

How is it that we put man on the moon before we figured out it would be a good idea to put wheels
on luggage?

Why is it that people say they 'slept like a baby' when babies wake up like every two hours?

If a deaf person has to go to court, is it still called a hearing?

Why are you IN a movie, but you're ON TV?

Why do people pay to go up tall buildings and then put money in binoculars to look at things on the
ground?

Why do doctors leave the room while you change? They're going to see you naked anyway...

Why is 'bra' singular and 'panties' plural?

Why do toasters always have a setting that burns the toast to a horrible crisp, which no decent
human being would eat?

If Jimmy cracks corn and no one cares, why is there a stupid song about him?

If the professor on Gilligan's Island can make a radio out of a coconut, why can't he fix a hole in a
boat?

Why does Goofy stand erect while Pluto remains on all fours? They're both dogs!

If Wile E. Coyote had enough money to buy all that ACME crap, why didn't he just buy dinner?

If corn oil is made from corn, and vegetable oil is made from vegetables, what is baby oil made from?

If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?

Do the Alphabet song and Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star have the same tune?

Why did you just try singing the two songs above?

Why do they call it an asteroid when it's outside the hemisphere, but call it a hemorrhoid when it's in
your butt?

Did you ever notice that when you blow in a dog's face, he gets mad at you, but when you take him for
a car ride, he sticks his head out the window?

Why, Why, Why do we press harder on a remote control when we know the batteries are getting
dead?

Why do banks charge a fee on 'insufficient funds' when they know there is not enough money?

Why does some one believe you when you say there are four billion stars, but check when you say the
paint is wet?

Why do they use sterilized needles for death by lethal injection?

Why doesn't Tarzan have a beard?

Why does Superman stop bullets with his chest, but ducks when you throw a revolver at him?

Why do Kamikaze pilots wear helmets?

Whose idea was it to put an 'S' in the word 'lisp'?

If people evolved from apes, why are there still apes?

Why is it that no matter what color bubble bath you use the bubbles are always white?

Is there ever a day that mattresses are not on sale?

Why do people constantly return to the refrigerator with hopes that something new to eat will have materialized?

Why do people keep running over a string a dozen times with their vacuum cleaner, then reach down,
pick it up, examine it, then put it down to give the vacuum one more chance?

Why is it that no plastic bag will open from the end on your first try?

How do those dead bugs get into those enclosed light fixtures?

Why is it that whenever you attempt to catch something that's falling off the table you always manage
to knock something else over?

In winter why do we try to keep the house as warm as it was in summer when we complained about
the heat?

How come you never hear father-in-law jokes?
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Dan
post Feb 17, 2012, 03:57 PM
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Game on!

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 14, 2012, 06:54 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 12:07 AM) *

If you take a different set of eyes and have them look at your cause and effect they may come up with a different story. Set a hundred different eyes on the cause and effect and you have a hundred different stories or thoughts and opinions. Then which is the real story?

None, because a story isn't "real" in the direct sense. Not yours, not MSI's, not MMYs. But perhaps some or all have value as pointers? How would you know, though? How can one discern which story is most useful? I suppose this is what is meant by "resonance".

None? Then anything you say about your marriage and the experience you have, regarding your marriage and love for your wife isn't real?

(using Reasoning of Joesus, or RJ) "Real" is the experience itself. A story, even one told by the subject of an experience, is not the experience itself.


QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 14, 2012, 06:54 PM) *

Even better, one achieves complete Moksha (attains the state of Brahman) and knows directly. If the vacated form is reanimated, is it an avatar of Brahman?

Where do you get that the form is vacated? Where does that idea come from?

Wouldn't you like to know! You can live in my shed for a few years and I might lead you to this realization. But you will have to mow my lawn.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 14, 2012, 06:54 PM) *
Was MSI such an avatar?

With or without your own experience, what meaning would any story of mine have?

Just answer the question. Surely you can generate an answer? Are you afraid you might look foolish?

The question, in another form, is "Did MSI ascend "all the way"? If not (you seem to think there is no "all the way"), then can you be sure he was pointing you in the "right" direction?


QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 14, 2012, 06:54 PM) *

You said
QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 12:07 AM) *

yes the beliefs will change as do experiences. The absolute itself does not change because it isn't a thing of change. Change is perspective, and it is varied by the approach and circumstance of focus and temporal relationships.

So you refer to this word "absolute" as a label of something (you said "itself") that does not change. There are other words/ideas/phrases that also point one's attention to "that which does not change" (this is the "mechanics" of your system, right?), but not directly.

The mechanics of language maybe. If you know what a cow looks like, and you say cow to someone, does the cow that you picture in your mind transfer itself to another exactly the way you picture and experience it?
The word "cow" may cause a person to think of ol' Bessie, milk, steak, or possibly a dewy morning of magic mushroom hunting. Likewise, the word "absolute" may cause people to think in a particular way that excludes ideas associated with "change". If thinking cannot bring the experience, then why infect their mind with a thought in the first place? When preconceptions arise in the mind due to words of the master, people start to "believe" that thinking them is equivalent to success. Since "not thinking" is the real success, just say it! Tell people "what you seek, you will find when thought ceases". Drop all the MSI fantasy bs. It's your time, MDI! Be the Master!


QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 14, 2012, 06:54 PM) *
It is the unique state of the word "absolute" that it is the label of "that which is pointed at". Interesting label. Is there a thoughtform attached to this label?

The imagination is likely to put a wrapper on it, when it is used to boxing things into neat little packages.

Of course it is. That is what happens when you say things like "absolute/ascendant/ineffible". You are hereby judged guilty of causing imaginations in others with your labels of "that which is sought".


QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 14, 2012, 06:54 PM) *
Perhaps it is better to drop the label in order to avoid the impression that the resulting illusory thoughtforms correctly represent what/where one is being pointed toward.

You mean say nothing about anything and just let someone attempt to read your mind?

No. But instead of describing what they seek with words (that is what "absolute/ascendant/ineffible" means to a follower), instead say only that you are only there to enable them to attain what they seek. Let them discover it on their own! There is a problem with such an approach, though. It does not "stick" to normal people who are lost in a sea of desire. For such people, mythologies that appeal to their desires are much better. You are sure to catch many more fish with such mythologies, just as you are sure to be left with a bunch of dependent fish when they can't break through the mythologies that cloud their mind.


QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 14, 2012, 06:54 PM) *

But the term "absolute" implies something.

Of course... or a no thing.. take your pick. In order to convey a message you take the risk of being totally misread or misunderstood. That is a limitation of language.

If "no thing" is a better label, use it. Tell your students "I will lead you out of thought, even as you are aware. Only from this state can you begin to find Truth" or something to that effect. Of course it might not sell well because people are really attached to their thoughts. For those people, maybe acquiescence to a powerful thought-restricting thoughtform (such as what MSI has borrowed from MMY and reformulated) will feel more "successful"?



QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 14, 2012, 06:54 PM) *

If this is untenable, it is because the implications of the word are taken to be meaningful. i.e., "unchanging reality" is a meaningful thoughtform that is not subject to the "relativity" dismissal mechanism.

Relative dismissal mechanism. Where can I get one of those? I could sell those by the hunnerds..

ironic



QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 14, 2012, 06:54 PM) *

if some thoughtforms are actually valuable in that they help point awareness toward "absolute"? What if some of the thoughtforms that you dismiss actually work in other minds?

What if they don't?

How would you know, given that the thoughts are not in your mind? And how can you be sure that your thoughts will work in the minds of others? Because your followers tell you so?




QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 14, 2012, 06:54 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 12:07 AM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 13, 2012, 09:22 PM) *

Why should an initiate believe such a proposition, and follow these thoughtforms? Because others swear that they work? Belief is inherent in the process of acquiescing to these thoughtforms that are to "direct" us. We must believe that they will "work".
Because they want them to work and because they can work.

The first statement can apply to any thoughtform. I can "want" thoughts of jellybean gravel to lead me to "absolute", even if it is absurd.
That is a distinct possibility however there are possibilities and probabilities that surround the choices that follow the beliefs and imaginations of people who are experiencing different intellectual boundaries, within states of consciousness.



QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 14, 2012, 06:54 PM) *
The second statement is a claim, to be "believed" by the devotee. It is by no means self-evident.
You mean that anyone making a claim to something in experience, needs to be validated in order for it to be so?

I mean that anybody looking for a guide cannot know if the claimant is valid or full of poo. They must believe that their chosen guide can get the job done.


QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 14, 2012, 06:54 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 12:07 AM) *

Focus and intention, to direct attention or awareness, is the ability of consciousness to create and experience. If one is learning to follow thoughts inward and to experience the mind in both activity and stillness, what is inherent, is opening itself for review as mind observes itself.

That is all well. The question is, does your system do this in a pure manner? or are there "contaminants"?

That is always a question for anyone 1. who is suspicious, 2. who stands outside of the system and does not use it, or 3. has no other system or systems to compare it to that are claiming to achieve similar or superior results.
1. Skepticism is not "suspicion", it is the unwillingness to believe. Since belief is not required in Ascension, skepticism should be natural.
2. That is pretty much everybody who is considering following you
3. What "result" is the system claiming to achieve?



QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

... if you just quit throwing crap in front of awareness to follow, it will find its way back to its own source.
The only reason it doesn't often happen, is because the ego is obsessed with entertaining itself with lots and lots of thoughts.

like "absolute/ascendant/ineffible/unchanging"?




QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 14, 2012, 06:54 PM) *

To what degree is the idea "unchanging" a representation of what you experience at the culmination of ascent?

You really are stuck on this endgame thing.

I just want you attain the Ascendant, Joesus. Godspeed!



QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

What is unchanging remains within the changing and evolving experiences of expanding consciousness, and the awareness of self.

Explain further



QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 14, 2012, 06:54 PM) *
Perhaps the state which you point awareness toward with your techniques may be thought of as prior to thought and therefore a pure "origin of being", but why must you think that it is "unchanging"?

It is the experience of it that produces that thought

Ok, I'm following ...
QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

and the repeatability of experience in stability that gave the absolute a description of not changing.
Huh? lost me. Is the "absolute"ness of "it" dependent on the ability of a person to repeatedly experience "it" without going bonkers?


QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 14, 2012, 06:54 PM) *
The world emerged from That, so change happened. Why?

What change are you describing?

look around. Do you see "no-thing"? If not, change happened.


QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

There have always been worlds emerging from That, according to the histories of enlightened dialogue. That from which worlds emerge does not change.

"That" is the substance of the world, Joesus. "That" is not separate. Change happens to "That".


QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 14, 2012, 06:54 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 12:07 AM) *

The absolute in reality is more than the word absolute.

Yes, but the word is a "pointer" to somewhere/thing that is presumably fundamental and to which the Ishaya method was developed to lead toward.

The method presumably came from the absolute or consciousness, to lead consciousness to consciousness ad infinitum and to observe itself in both inward and outward movements.

That is a belief, the type of belief that might attract new devotees and continue to inspire the existing devotees. After all, the method is divinely inspired! Wait, I've seen this somewhere before...


QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 14, 2012, 06:54 PM) *
Why not say "frnidlx"? Does the word "absolute" have greater meaning?
It may have more meaning in the familiarity of current language. If frnidlx was used often enough to gain a certain momentum with the cognitive functioning of coherent speech and communication, it could eventually replace the absolute as a word to point to the ineffable.

No, I'm saying use the word frnidlx so that we can be pointed directly without preconception. What good would it be if we are simply waiting for the word frnidlx to be commonly associated with the word "ineffable"?


Look again at what you said, with a minor adjustment

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *
... it (frnidlx) could eventually replace the absolute as a word to point to the absolute

It sounds pretty silly now, eh? You don't want to let go of the meanings associated with the word "absolute". Let go! and then you will experience frnidlx!


QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 14, 2012, 06:54 PM) *
Great, so I recommend using ... any concept or label...
If that is what you wish to do when it comes to describing your experience of the ineffable then so be it.

There you go, talking about ineffability. Move past this thoughtform and experience frnidlx, man!


QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

You will necessarily need to follow the label with enough information to create a resonance with the experience, that others can attune themselves to. Otherwise it may be like cutting a tree down in the forest where no one is there to witness it. It may go unnoticed or unheard.
The resonance you get is a consequence of your action. If you say "heaven", many will resonate with that and follow you to the kool-aid. If you think you need to save otherwise confused people by promising "absolute/ineffable" to them, you will be surrounded by people hungry for whatever thoughtform you invoked in them. We all have a sense of direction that arises naturally, what we need is the ability to tune it in and follow it. "Methods" tend to obscure this subtle direction by entraining us in a narrow but "efficient" direction. Maybe much can be attained this way, but at some point only our own sense of direction can lead us further. Imposing methods only gets us stuck. Half-baked



QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 14, 2012, 06:54 PM) *

What desire does a liberated (hu)man carry? From whence cometh such desire?

That is the question of everyone who seeks liberation.

indeed, it is the "end zone" that you are only partially aware of

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

If you would read scripture you might find out what the enlightened have to say about that.

I would only find out new thoughtforms. I would never attain the experience itself!


QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

Better yet become liberated and experience what desire is at that level of conscious awareness.

So tell me of this experience. What do you desire? Or are you not yet liberated?


QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 14, 2012, 06:54 PM) *

Perhaps. Instead of a semantic distraction, I will refer you to the idea "ascension". Where are you at the culmination of "ascension"? This is what is meant by moksha, right?

There is that endgame thing again.

Yes, Joesus, I am sorry for continuing to ask you about "liberation". I realize you are not yet there.

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

In regards to Moksha. liberation is not meant to be thought of as an endgame thing.

It is not meant to be thought of at all! It is a transformation of You, to That! It is the End of delusion.


QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 14, 2012, 06:54 PM) *
From the venerable Wikipedia: Within Indian religions, moksha (Sanskrit: मोक्ष mokṣa) or mukti (Sanskrit: मुक्ति), literally "release" (both from a root muc "to let loose, let go")...

Let go of what.. or release from what?

delusion


QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 14, 2012, 06:54 PM) *
The journey inward can be completed.
The journey inward can be realized.

Yes, "realized", "completed", all the same meaning. Another word is "attained".


QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 14, 2012, 06:54 PM) *
However, return happens.

You never leave what is real. Illusions fall away.

This thought is above your paygrade. You need some more experience.


QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 14, 2012, 06:54 PM) *
Thus, an endless cycle.

Thus an eternal being and creative energy of potential and reflection of, that.

busy busy rabbit


QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 14, 2012, 06:54 PM) *
In the case of universal release, only pure undivided Brahman is. And then this mess happens. Why?

Without illusion there is no mess. Just the realization of the reflection of messy thoughts.

The "mess" is the state of duality. A realization is that we can't just sit back and expect to always feel good. We have to tend the garden.

Now, go tend to yours. Retreats don't guide themselves.
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Joesus
post Feb 18, 2012, 12:35 PM
Post #34


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QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

(using Reasoning of Joesus, or RJ) "Real" is the experience itself.

Not what I was inferring.

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *
A story, even one told by the subject of an experience, is not the experience itself.

Not to one who is listening, and has not shared the experience, or had one that was similar in the way individuality creates the unique experience, No.

To address the issue of experience... to deny ones own experience would be an Illusion, for as you say
QUOTE
We have to tend the garden.


QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

Just answer the question. Surely you can generate an answer? Are you afraid you might look foolish?

To you? You've already made that determination, why should I change your mind or care what you or someone else thinks about me, especially (as you say) when they do not share the experience itself?
QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

The question, in another form, is "Did MSI ascend "all the way"?

All the way to what or where? What are you thinking is the result or promise being made regarding any label or quality of liberation? What happens when someone goes all the way?
(and we're not talkin' 3rd base here...are we?)


QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *
The word "cow" may cause a person to think of ol' Bessie, milk, steak, or possibly a dewy morning of magic mushroom hunting. Likewise, the word "absolute" may cause people to think in a particular way that excludes ideas associated with "change".

One word conversations are nonexistent even in charades.
If you want to be intelligent about having a conversation, we would be talking about the absolute and its possible reflections within the individual experience, without defining it to one person, or one idea, and without excluding possible distortions.
QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *
If thinking cannot bring the experience, then why infect their mind with a thought in the first place?

If you think the mind can be infected by any word, then what's to say the mind isn't in a state of disease by the infections created by all the terms, regarding the reality of personal values as they are implied within the democratic system of social mores in any conversation? Do people think correctly in the first place?

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *
When preconceptions arise in the mind due to words of the master, people start to "believe" that thinking them is equivalent to success. Since "not thinking" is the real success, just say it! Tell people "what you seek, you will find when thought ceases". Be the Master!

Preconceptions are brought by the student to the Master. It is then that the Master guides the student to recognize preconceived ideas and how they are placed upon new moments and the potential for expanded experiences of similar events, where a new experience is possible.

That is if there IS a student, and.. whether that student bothers to listen, or even has the ability to comprehend.

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

The imagination is likely to put a wrapper on it, when it is used to boxing things into neat little packages.

Of course it is. That is what happens when you say things like "absolute/ascendant/ineffible". You are hereby judged guilty of causing imaginations in others with your labels of "that which is sought".

Stupidity is not my fault.
You might as well assume guilt for all the preconceptions carried by anyone who misunderstands you whenever you speak. So just commit suicide or remove yourself from all conversations to prevent those possible sufferings that result from you opening your mouth. blink.gif I'll miss you. unsure.gif

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

You mean say nothing about anything and just let someone attempt to read your mind?

No. But instead of describing what they seek with words (that is what "absolute/ascendant/ineffible" means to a follower), instead say only that you are only there to enable them to attain what they seek. Let them discover it on their own!

You mean like giving a scalpel to a person who wishes to be a surgeon, and leading them into a hospital so they can start cutting into people to discover on their own how to do surgery without ever taking on a method of study derived by accomplished surgeons?
QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *
There is a problem with such an approach, though. It does not "stick" to normal people who are lost in a sea of desire. For such people, mythologies that appeal to their desires are much better. You are sure to catch many more fish with such mythologies, just as you are sure to be left with a bunch of dependent fish when they can't break through the mythologies that cloud their mind.

Anyone wishing to sell something can always find a buyer.
In turn, anyone wishing to buy something is going to find someone to sell them what they want.

Everyone follows a path of their own making to gain the experience they desire. (People find their own myths/preconceived ideals)

Some are happy with what they want and get. Some are never happy with anything. Still others find they are torn between the mix of satisfaction and dissatisfaction. And Some are happy with following thoughtforms.

If you don't like the world, then get off of it. I assume everyone like yourself has a free will to make whatever choices they will, according to whatever they value, and at the level they perceive value and judgment systems.


QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

If "no thing" is a better label, use it.
It's not better or worse, and I do use it.
QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *
Tell your students "I will lead you out of thought, even as you are aware. Only from this state can you begin to find Truth" or something to that effect.

Why would I make a promise like that? Why would I say I will lead when they might not want to be led? Maybe you like to walk up to people and tell them you will lead them to salvation, but that ain't my style.

Besides thinking is normal. It's the quality of thought that creates issues.
QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *
Of course it might not sell well because people are really attached to their thoughts. For those people, maybe acquiescence to a powerful thought-restricting thoughtform (such as what MSI has borrowed from MMY and reformulated) will feel more "successful"?

Obviously the subjective mind is going to think what it wants... You're pretty good proof of that.

As for what was borrowed and by who.. the list is endless as far as who goes. The what has been the subject of discussion by those who have made an impression on others according to their own experience and understanding.
Kinda like you borrowing previous knowledge to formulate your individual perspective to write your thesis for you phd. Nothing new was created just a new perspective or experience upon the theories agreed upon.

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

How would you know, given that the thoughts are not in your mind? And how can you be sure that your thoughts will work in the minds of others? Because your followers tell you so?

My thoughts in another's mind? Once another takes upon themselves thought, does it not become their thought?
Are you insinuating everything you learned in school is just a parasitic invasion of your mind where you have now been infected by the thoughts of all of your instructors?

What I know is what I may choose to create as my reality. I can give credit to others as being the creator of theirs, and in my experience of reality I don't see a separation of individuals who create myself in their reality any more than I see a separation from those that are in mine. We are one in the same, on the same road. Symbiotic so to speak.

Differing perspectives, is what makes the road traveled, Unique perspectives are what define individuality.

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

I mean that anybody looking for a guide cannot know if the claimant is valid or full of poo. They must believe that their chosen guide can get the job done.

Generally speaking that takes a bit of time, where a relationship is built on trust and understanding.

I won't discount the complete idiot. There are a few who will fall for anything.



QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *
1. Skepticism is not "suspicion", it is the unwillingness to believe.

The two are not mutually exclusive, and being a skeptic is not necessarily being vacant of any willingness when the skeptic has found common ground for understanding or is approaching understanding with an open mind.


QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *
Since belief is not required in Ascension, skepticism should be natural.

it is part and parcel to suspicion which is part of fear and a program based on limited sensory experiences.
Any method is a method of self discovery.


QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

2. That is pretty much everybody who is considering following you

No real teacher encourages following, but rather self exploration.


QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

3. What "result" is the system claiming to achieve?

The system makes no claims of itself.
Those who use it (any system), make their claims to personal experiences and to knowledge of the successful use of a system(s). Which in turn gives pause to the thought of successful systems as a rule.




QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

... if you just quit throwing crap in front of awareness to follow, it will find its way back to its own source.
The only reason it doesn't often happen, is because the ego is obsessed with entertaining itself with lots and lots of thoughts.

like "absolute/ascendant/ineffible/unchanging"?

I was thinking more along the lines of the same questions you are asking me over and over again, and throwing the same preconceived idea into those questions.





QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

I just want you attain the Ascendant, Joesus. Godspeed!

How will you know when that happens?




QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

What is unchanging remains within the changing and evolving experiences of expanding consciousness, and the awareness of self.

Explain further

I have been doing that, but you tend to get stuck on personal preconceptions in terms/meanings, of certain words that I use. (Not my fault)

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

and the repeatability of experience in stability that gave the absolute a description of not changing.
Huh? lost me. Is the "absolute"ness of "it" dependent on the ability of a person to repeatedly experience "it" without going bonkers?

No, it remains unaffected by you going bonkers. Or stated slightly different, while you experience both it, and your state of "bonker" ness..It is still...


QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

look around. Do you see "no-thing"? If not, change happened.

There is a slight difference between the No-thingness and things that are the reflections of mind.


QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

There have always been worlds emerging from That, according to the histories of enlightened dialogue. That from which worlds emerge does not change.

"That" is the substance of the world, Joesus. "That" is not separate. Change happens to "That".

No. Change happens to substance, not that which is not of substance and ineffable.

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

The method presumably came from the absolute or consciousness, to lead consciousness to consciousness ad infinitum and to observe itself in both inward and outward movements.

That is a belief, the type of belief that might attract new devotees and continue to inspire the existing devotees. After all, the method is divinely inspired! Wait, I've seen this somewhere before...

It is a belief. But it is also a reflection of possibility which leads belief into experience. Then as you explore the experience and become familiar with it and build a relationship with consciousness itself, one becomes more familiar with what it is you believe in. Consciousness then is experienced as a belief, but it is also experienced as something much bigger than the individual belief, and experienced as common to all beliefs, and all individuals who share consciousness.

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

No, I'm saying use the word frnidlx so that we can be pointed directly without preconception. What good would it be if we are simply waiting for the word frnidlx to be commonly associated with the word "ineffable"?

So your just saying, make up a word and barf it out in front of everyone, and see if someone or anyone is going to do something other than barf back?

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

Look again at what you said, with a minor adjustment


QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *
... it (frnidlx) could eventually replace the absolute as a word to point to the absolute

It sounds pretty silly now, eh? You don't want to let go of the meanings associated with the word "absolute". Let go! and then you will experience frnidlx!

What I did say, was that if you used that word (frnidlx) in conjunction with other words that make a descriptive sentence, pointing to an idea as you would using the word absolute, you will eventually come up with descriptive terms with similar meanings.

If you are suggesting taking the mind outside of the dualistic mechanical nature of thought where one gets stuck following meanings then there are methods.

I hear 10,000 volts works, and you may not even need that much if you apply the current at 1 amp. The only downfall is that the conversation usually ends permanently and you fail to get the feedback you might want in the form of conversation.

Personally I like to use a less dramatic approach.

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

There you go, talking about ineffability. Move past this thoughtform and experience frnidlx, man!

I experience both as the same reflection. I'm way ahead of you, dude.

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

The resonance you get is a consequence of your action. If you say "heaven", many will resonate with that and follow you to the kool-aid.

Yes that is what we discussed earlier about following preconceived ideas. A person hears what they can/want according to what is acceptable to personal programs. People resonate with what they can see and feel according to the programs they have accepted as the identifying principle of self.

Examples of this idea is the the thought of the "war on terrorism" created by politicians which creates fear and a need for a government organization such as Homeland Security.
or
Even simpler, The cold and Flu season which is advertized every fall by participating pharmacies wishing to sell their remedies to the general public. No species on the planet other than humans acknowledge this season as a reality.

Resonance, however, to what is eternal within the individual personality, is what draws a person naturally to create the conditions and the experiences which expand the mind and to take it inward, rather than outward into the conditions of duality that are the reflections of thought and preconceptions.

Those conditions are inclusive of people who have themselves had experiences that lead to methods and descriptions of methods etc...

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *
If you think you need to save otherwise confused people by promising "absolute/ineffable" to them, you will be surrounded by people hungry for whatever thoughtform you invoked in them.

Fortunately I have no desire to save anyone from themselves. To empower ones self to recognize their self destructive habits, and to help one save themselves, may be a different matter, and.. I also have the capabilities to turn away those who bring their kool aid pitchers to my door.

It doesn't take very long to discover when someone wants you to take on the responsibility of making their decisions for them.

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *
We all have a sense of direction that arises naturally, what we need is the ability to tune it in and follow it.

Exactly, a natural method of attunement. A way to recognize what gets into the way of natural sense and direction.

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *
"Methods" tend to obscure this subtle direction by entraining us in a narrow but "efficient" direction.

Methods are derived thru the subtle.

How is an efficient direction an obscuration?

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *
Maybe much can be attained this way, but at some point only our own sense of direction can lead us further. Imposing methods only gets us stuck. Half-baked
Becoming half baked may be the method or sense of direction that is the stepping stone to becoming fully baked when one is still finding themselves in a pre-baked condition having been immersed in ones own spittle and drool.

Those that have followed their own sense of direction and have the power of influence are mostly responsible for the conditions of the world as they are today. That sense may not be the natural sense but instead an obscured sense, based on fear, self preservation and greed taught to us from childhood, where we are told to accept the measure of worth and measure of success in relative wealth and value prescribed by the system of education.

Nearly a billion people entered the 21st century unable to read a book or sign their names.

Water problems affect half of humanity:

Some 1.1 billion people in developing countries have inadequate access to water, and 2.6 billion lack basic sanitation.
Almost two in three people lacking access to clean water survive on less than $2 a day, with one in three living on less than $1 a day.
More than 660 million people without sanitation live on less than $2 a day, and more than 385 million on less than $1 a day.
Access to piped water into the household averages about 85% for the wealthiest 20% of the population, compared with 25% for the poorest 20%.
1.8 billion people who have access to a water source within 1 kilometre, but not in their house or yard, consume around 20 litres per day. In the United Kingdom the average person uses more than 50 litres of water a day flushing toilets (where average daily water usage is about 150 liters a day. The highest average water use in the world is in the US, at 600 liters day.)
Some 1.8 million child deaths each year as a result of diarrhoea
The loss of 443 million school days each year from water-related illness.
Close to half of all people in developing countries suffering at any given time from a health problem caused by water and sanitation deficits.
Millions of women spending several hours a day collecting water.
To these human costs can be added the massive economic waste associated with the water and sanitation deficit. The costs associated with health spending, productivity losses and labour diversions are greatest in some of the poorest countries. Sub-Saharan Africa loses about 5% of GDP, or some $28.4 billion annually, a figure that exceeds total aid flows and debt relief to the region in 2003

http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/pov...facts-and-stats

Perhaps the sense of direction taken by humanity at present needs some help. Maybe to return it to a sense that flows with nature rather than one that tries to control it or destroy it, or to take from it without consequence for ones actions or the conditions of the rest of humanity.

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

That is the question of everyone who seeks liberation.

indeed, it is the "end zone" that you are only partially aware of

I'm all ears.

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

If you would read scripture you might find out what the enlightened have to say about that.

I would only find out new thoughtforms. I would never attain the experience itself!

True, but those thoughtforms coming from those who have achieved liberation, may give you answers to the thoughtforms that you entertain as questions, since you are seeming to ignore the experience to only focus on the thoughtforms.


QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

Better yet become liberated and experience what desire is at that level of conscious awareness.

So tell me of this experience. What do you desire? Or are you not yet liberated?

OK. From my experience I would say, "Achieve your own experience and answer your own question." That would be a desire, and my experience of a desire.



QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

Yes, Joesus, I am sorry for continuing to ask you about "liberation". I realize you are not yet there.

Damn! sad.gif

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

In regards to Moksha. liberation is not meant to be thought of as an endgame thing.

It is not meant to be thought of at all! It is a transformation of You, to That! It is the End of delusion.

There is nothing other than "That." "That" is what is absolute. wink.gif


QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

Let go of what.. or release from what?

delusion

Damn.. your still here...


QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 14, 2012, 10:41 PM) *

The journey inward can be realized.

Yes, "realized", "completed", all the same meaning. Another word is "attained".

Then what?





QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

The "mess" is the state of duality. A realization is that we can't just sit back and expect to always feel good. We have to tend the garden.
Those who are not liberated have created the mess, and as they tend to the mess from the level of awareness that created the mess, it perpetuates itself.
So... liberation from a messy conscious awareness, reveals both the perfection of messy thoughts in that they can perfectly reflect the messy mind as the messy garden. Then the refined and orderly mind can just as perfectly create a refined and orderly garden


QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 17, 2012, 11:57 PM) *

Now, go tend to yours. Retreats don't guide themselves.

Exactly. People need methods and guidance from those who have themselves understood the difference between experience and dreams of having experience.
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post Feb 18, 2012, 02:14 PM
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is this a game or is there a real question buried somewhere here?
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post Feb 18, 2012, 03:23 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Feb 18, 2012, 04:14 PM) *

is this a game or is there a real question buried somewhere here?

It's a game of finding the questions that matter.

I call it "Dansanity"
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post Feb 18, 2012, 05:08 PM
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QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 18, 2012, 11:23 PM) *

QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Feb 18, 2012, 04:14 PM) *

is this a game or is there a real question buried somewhere here?

It's a game of finding the questions that matter.

I call it "Dansanity"

A man on a quest, to seek out his mind, or to invest what he knows of it in endless thoughtforms?
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post Feb 19, 2012, 10:29 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 18, 2012, 07:08 PM) *

A man on a quest, to seek out his mind, or to invest what he knows of it in endless thoughtforms?

Are you referring to both of us, or just yourself?

Here's the score:
Joesus -> 3459 posts
Swami Danananda -> 1841 posts
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post Feb 19, 2012, 01:20 PM
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QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 19, 2012, 06:29 PM) *

Are you referring to both of us, or just yourself?
Here's the score:
Joesus -> 3459 posts
Swami Danananda -> 1841 posts

I was referring to your previous statement:
QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 18, 2012, 11:23 PM) *

It's a game of finding the questions that matter.
I call it "Dansanity"

I wasn't keeping score...But I see you are! huh.gif
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post Feb 19, 2012, 03:20 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 19, 2012, 03:20 PM) *

QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 19, 2012, 06:29 PM) *

Are you referring to both of us, or just yourself?

I was referring to your previous statement:

Yes Mahajnani, indeed you were wink.gif
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post Feb 20, 2012, 11:35 AM
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did you find any questions that matter?
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post Feb 20, 2012, 01:10 PM
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I suppose we should clarify what exactly I am implying by the word "matter". A phenomenon I find curious is the actions of "enlightened" (or what ever word you prefer to use, see here ) people. While we can argue about whether or not such a state is real, we can be fairly clear on who claims such a state. And what of the motives of such a person? Does it not make sense to interpret such motives as being human-specific expressions of divine origination, such as is commonly done for others like Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Muhammad, etc...? With regard to this question, I thought to ask Joesus. I think it is pretty clear that he feels himself an enlightened person. I am curious to learn about his reasons. Unfortunately, he seems to be unable to express himself but is instead confined to filtering all of his expressions through his "Ishaya" system of thought. The game of this thread is to look for modes of thought that might get him past the "Ishaya" mindset and allow him to put his own feelings in words. I think he has already done a lot of that, but there is work yet!
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post Feb 20, 2012, 01:48 PM
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QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 20, 2012, 09:10 PM) *

While we can argue about whether or not such a state is real, we can be fairly clear on who claims such a state.

How would you affirm or deny such a claim if it were made?
QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 20, 2012, 09:10 PM) *
And what of the motives of such a person? Does it not make sense to interpret such motives as being human-specific expressions of divine origination, such as is commonly done for others like Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Muhammad, etc...?

What would make sense, from your mindset? Would you have to be enlightened to know the enlightened mind or would you just know what it is to be enlightened never having been enlightened... or?
QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 20, 2012, 09:10 PM) *

With regard to this question, I thought to ask Joesus. I think it is pretty clear that he feels himself an enlightened person.

More than some and less than others...
QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 20, 2012, 09:10 PM) *
I am curious to learn about his reasons. Unfortunately, he seems to be unable to express himself but is instead confined to filtering all of his expressions through his "Ishaya" system of thought.

If you step out of your mindset I'll step out of mine... huh.gif
QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 20, 2012, 09:10 PM) *
The game of this thread is to look for modes of thought that might get him past the "Ishaya" mindset and allow him to put his own feelings in words. I think he has already done a lot of that, but there is work yet!
I suppose that work would be inclusive of defining the Ishaya mindset, the enlightened mindset and also any mindset you are working to get me to realize.
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post Feb 20, 2012, 02:00 PM
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So you can see just how difficult it is to penetrate Joesus' defenses. A real fighter, he. I'm game, though. I'll keep it on this thread, nice and tidy.
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post Feb 20, 2012, 05:02 PM
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QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 20, 2012, 10:00 PM) *

So you can see just how difficult it is to penetrate Joesus' defenses. A real fighter, he. I'm game, though. I'll keep it on this thread, nice and tidy.

Are you going to save me?

I'm ready for the sermon preacher! wink.gif
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post Feb 21, 2012, 06:54 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 20, 2012, 07:02 PM) *

Are you going to save me?

I'm ready for the sermon preacher! wink.gif

You bring up an interesting idea, "saving". Very Jesus-like. Was MSI a "savior"? As I understand the Ishaya myth, the "Ishayas" are a lineage of monks who extend back to Johnny somebody who was J.C.'s bud. Wasn't J. C. a "savior" also? Or maybe Ishayas have a better word to describe his/their mission. In any case, the people need savin', and you've got the blueprint for success.
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post Feb 21, 2012, 08:02 AM
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QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 21, 2012, 02:54 PM) *

you've got the blueprint for success.

I do.
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post Feb 21, 2012, 08:14 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 21, 2012, 10:02 AM) *

I do.

But, if your state of enlightenment is "More than some and less than others", how can you be sure your blueprint will really work? What if it just leads to a state of enlightenment "limbo"?
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post Feb 21, 2012, 08:31 AM
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QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 21, 2012, 04:14 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 21, 2012, 10:02 AM) *

I do.

But, if your state of enlightenment is "More than some and less than others", how can you be sure your blueprint will really work? What if it just leads to a state of enlightenment "limbo"?

Everyone carries the blueprint. The idea of success and enlightenment would have to be pondered in order to answer the question.
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post Feb 21, 2012, 08:48 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 21, 2012, 10:31 AM) *

Everyone carries the blueprint.

Then what is the "Ishaya" method?

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post Feb 21, 2012, 09:13 AM
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QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 21, 2012, 04:48 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 21, 2012, 10:31 AM) *

Everyone carries the blueprint.

Then what is the "Ishaya" method?

A method of investigation into success and enlightenment
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post Feb 21, 2012, 10:30 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 21, 2012, 11:13 AM) *
QUOTE(Dan @ Feb 21, 2012, 04:48 PM) *

... what is the "Ishaya" method?

A method of investigation into success and enlightenment

Sounds like a plan (see blueprint ) !
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