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> The best nootropic stack
casa861
post Jan 17, 2012, 03:29 AM
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Hi, I wanted to ask you if you do not mind, if you could recommend a good nootropic stack?
My situation is this:
I'm 25 years old, tall 175 cm and weight 100 Kg (230pound),I'm an engineering student.
I need a stack that would make me give my best in terms of concentration, memory, intelligence etc.
During this time I will have to face many tests, and most likely will go to a nervous breakdown and I'll be in a state of anxiety.
Half of these tests are mostly based on knowledge, while the other half of the more complex problem solving.
I state that I have already used the piracetam (2400 mg daily) and choline bitrate (700mg).
You could list a stack perfect for my problem?
Thank you for your time.
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casa861
post Jan 17, 2012, 03:32 AM
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I intend to point out also that I am physically fit, I made a visit to the cardiologist who is the general blood tests and thyroid.
Thank you again.
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mban
post Jan 28, 2012, 11:43 AM
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THIS POST WAS UPDATED 22/07/13

Hello casa861,

When looking at the brain and human memory you have to consider a variety of things which increase the ability to store, process, and recall information:

1) Cerebral blood flow - Neurons require large portions of our bodily blood flow to function effectively. More blood flow equates to increased oxygenation, which is required for energy formation from the powerhouse of our cells, mitochondria, when needed. More blood flow also increases nutrient and protein availability in order to express brain relevant genes and help in the conversion of precursor nutrients into relevant molecules that are required for optimal brain processing.

2) Adequate supply of nutrients required for the formation of neurotransmitters - these include amino acids such as tyrosine (precursor to adrenaline/epinephrine, noradrenaline/norepinephrine and dopamine), tryptophan (precursor to serotonin), acetyl-CoA and choline (precursors to acetylcholine formation), etc. Sufficient vitamins/minerals/nutrients are also needed as co-factors in many cellular reactions that are used to clear out debris from inside of our cells, and maintain proper cell functioning. Glucose is the primary food source for neurons of the brain. Better glucose regulation leads to better brain functioning (i.e. eat right and exercise to avoid diabetes - diabetes messes with brain functioning!).

3) A large supply of antioxidants - When parts of your brain are very active then generate large quantities of reactive oxygen species (ROS) which go on to damage cellular proteins, cell membranes, etc. Antioxidants act to "mop up" these ROS and prevent their eventual "brain fog" causing properties. Phytonutrients (e.g. from blueberries) can also help to make cells in our body produce more of our own "endogenous" anti-oxidants, which are best at countering ROS and keeping brain cells happy and firing.

4) Excitability level - Neurons only send transmission after they have received enough activation in order to "fire" and send on their signal. The most prevalent source of excitation for cerebral cortex neurons is through activation of glutamate channels by glutamate neurotransmitter. This excitation is mainly opposed by GABA and glycine neurotransmitters acting on GABA and Glycine channels, respectively, which effectively blunt the signal as they are inhibitory. The brain requires the precise and correct combination of excitation and inhibition in order to work optimally. Both too much excitation, or too much inhibition and the system will not function at its best.

5) Levels of neuronal branching - Neurons receive signals primarily through their dendrites, which are like the arms of a tree. If a neuron is very healthy it will be more branched, and the more branched the more information the system can hold (more connections between concepts are able to be formed).

6) Metabolic health - Neurons, as cells, are required to produce large amounts of ATP (the energy molecule of the cell). Sufficient production of ATP is needed in order to sustain neuron activity for prolonged amounts of time. ATP is broken down during use into ADP and AMP, which can signal to the cell that it is tired and needs to rest. If you can recycle ADP and AMP back into ATP faster, then the brain thinks it is less tired and can maintain high activity for longer.

Alright, now that you have a little background let’s get in to what to do to boost brain function. Here are the basics first:

A) A general multivitamin (best/cheapest I find is LifeExtension's 2 per day multi's) - Provide you with the general nutrients to manufacture brain chemicals. I buy mine from iherb.com. You can use my coupon code "DET108" for $5 off if you are a first time customer. NO, I don't have any affiliation with them, they just have pretty good prices (but you can find better prices for bulk items on other sites!)
B) Get plenty of exercise - While not a nootropic pill per say, this is one of the best for increasing levels of nerve growth factor (NGF) and brain derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF), both of which increase the amount of dendrite branching and increase connections between difficult concepts, which helps with memory and with solving problems. Also, exercise helps with maintaining blood vessel elasticity and compliance so that blood flow can be better directed to different parts of the body when needed (i.e. makes the blood vessels of the brain more responsive to changes in neuron activity, and therefore helps neurons become more efficient at getting nutrients and functioning at their maximal capacity). Exercise also stresses cells, and makes them decide to clean out cellular junk/debris so that they function more efficiently. Further, it helps neurons build up a tolerance for functioning at high capacity with lower levels of available resources (neurons can adapt to exercise over time by becoming more resistant to becoming tired - means that you can study for longer without feeling as tired and without getting as much brain fog).
C) Get 7-10 hours of sleep a night - helps with keeping neuron energy stores high and promotes larger brain levels of NGF and BDNF. Proper rest, and a consistent sleep-wake schedule, can be the most effective "nootropic" that most people can give their bodies. The recommended amount of sleep for most adults is 8 hours, but if you need more for functioning best; work it into your schedule.

After you have those ones down pact, here are certain supplements/drugs/herbs that will help you out. Most can be bought from iherb.com or nutrabio.com (cheap sources). Take all on an empty stomach. All separate doses should be taken 4-6 hours apart. Do not take less than 4 hours before bed:

D) Coenzyme Q10 + Bioperine - Aids in ATP production in cells. Bioperine, which is usually found combined with CoQ10 helps with absorption of many different nootropics - recommend 100-200mg CoQ10 per day divided between 2 separate doses
E) Acetyl L Carnitine (ALCAR) - Acts as an acetyl donor in the formation of acetylcholine. Helps transport fatty acids across the mitochondrial cell membrane to be used in the production of ATP. Increases receptors for NGF - Take 200-500mg, divided into 2 equal doses per day
F) CDP-choline - act as the choline donor in the formation of acetylcholine - take up to 500mg per day, divided into 2 doses
G) Ginkgo biloba - Increases cerebral blood flow and acts as a antioxidant. - Use 50-100mg, divided into 2 separate doses
H) Rhodiola Rosea and Eleuthero - These ones have pretty complex mechanisms of action, but in short they acts to reduce stress from long study hours, increase attention, act as antioxidants, boost levels of synaptic neurotransmitters or act directly on neurotransmitter receptors. They have a primary function of acting as "adaptogens" which help the body adapt to long periods of stress. They increase the amount of time that you can concentrate on a task at hand without becoming too tired to continue studying from the stress. I recommend relatively low doses of these when combined together and when taken with the other supplements on this list. Rhodiola Rosea - 50-200mg, Eleuthero - 100-300mg. Divide all of these into 2 separate doses.
I) Omega 3 fatty acids - Help with cell membrane stability, increases ability to concentrate and relieves stress over the long term. - Take up to five capsules per day.
J) Creatine monohydrate - Take 2 grams per day, PLUS 2-5 grams right before a big study session. Creatine plays a role within the cell of acting as a temporary energy carrier (as phosphocreatine), and is able to help replenish cellular levels of ATP by donating a phosphate group to ADP.


Cheers,

mban
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casa861
post Feb 07, 2012, 03:22 AM
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Thanks so much for the clear explanation!
Now I've made a good culture in this regard.
Thank you very much.
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Flandern
post Feb 15, 2012, 10:25 PM
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Mban,

Thanks a lot!
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semi-retarded-individual
post Feb 25, 2012, 11:14 AM
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mban, very interesting theory on the usage of racetams. After all my years of researching them I've never heard that take before. Is this pure conjecture or do you have any studies to substantiate your position?
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mban
post Feb 28, 2012, 02:38 PM
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ncbi.nlm.nih dot gov/pubmed/2641481

sciencedirect dot com /science/article/pii/S0167876099000446

ncbi.nlm.nih dot gov /pubmed/8787170

sciencedirect dot com/science/article/pii/001346949390007I


My analysis was that piracetam decreases global complexity, thereby promoting an "alert, but relaxed" state which is consistent with the boost in alpha frequencies. That being said, a shift towards this state would be beneficial to those who have abnormal brain synchronization, such as those with schizophrenia, ADHD, dyslexia, or with advanced aging. Piracetam seems to interact with cell membranes causing changes in membrane fluidity, as well as changes in the receptor proportions found in cell membranes, which is beneficial to those who require it.

The brain is a complex organ which requires not only alpha or beta wave synchronization between neuronal subunits, but requires the correct combination of theta, alpha, beta, and omega frequency oscillations in order to function optimally and allow for the "binding" of information into a coherent whole. As stated above, the increase in alpha waves and decrease in global complexity associated with piracetam usage is perfectly fine for moreso automatic tasks that require concentration and accuracy when repeated consecutively, but I would not personally take it when I am required to do my best work. Notice that I am targeting the usage of piracetam to my own situation (being young), and therefore the use of piracetam will vary based on age and cognitive status.

Notice also that no studies that I am aware of have demonstrated significant increases in cognitive ability, apart from slight increases in verbal fluency, on the first day of testing for young/healthy subjects. For me to spend my money on this substance as a cognitive enhancer, I would need specific proof of increased cognitive ability tested from all domains OR that it allows for increased duration of mental effort at a high capacity.

All of this being said, piracetam still shows general health benefits, which I am aware of, and shows extremely low toxicity even at high doses, so there is relatively little stopping a person from trying it to see if it benefits them in some way.

If you find an article on general cognitive ability change in healthy/young subjects taking piracetam, point it out to me and I will take a look.

Cheers,

Mban
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kirbydude
post Mar 03, 2012, 09:14 AM
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My stack:

Oxiracetam - Cerebral Health Powders 1 - 1 1/2 g~
Piracetam - Smart Drugs for Thought - Neuro-Boost 4,800mg
Alpha GPC - Jarrow Formulas - 600mg

I recently added Oxiracetam to my stack of Piracetam and Alpha GPC and have noticed a change in cognitive level. The ability to be much more innovative with focus and clarity has been the benefit. Before it was the same, but one step down. I have tried just tjhe Oxiracetam and Alpha GPC and noticed it was not the same without the Piracetam in the stack. I believe Oxiracetam and Piracetam work synergistically well together with Alpha GPC. This stack personally is proven to me each day to be beneficial in creative thinking and memory. Not only that I enhanced social and motor skills with this stack. I believe it is a build up of sticking with the program and Oxi was the final touch to it all. I think Cerebral Health provides a great product of Oxiracetam because I have bought other products from them in the past and they were quality. For the Neuro Boost Piracetam and Jarrow Alpha GPC, I find it very convenient for me to take capsules to save time and hide the bitter and astringent taste.
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alisha99
post Jul 20, 2012, 01:08 AM
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My stack:

Piracetam- 800mg one time or twice in a day.
Deprenyl- 15mg to 30mg per day.
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Jakare
post Jul 20, 2012, 03:33 AM
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QUOTE(alisha99 @ Jul 20, 2012, 11:08 AM) *

My stack:

Piracetam- 800mg one time or twice in a day.
Deprenyl- 15mg to 30mg per day.

That is well inside the MAO-A Inhibition area (everything above 10-15mg/day)!!!
What if you get a cheesy snack and before realizing you have eaten half the bag or drank a glass of wine??? Such mistakes can happen specially when you are so busy feeling great and fixing the world...
I am just worried about you alisha99.
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Gamma Waves
post Jul 21, 2012, 03:38 PM
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QUOTE(mban @ Jan 28, 2012, 02:43 PM) *

Hello casa861,

This is my first post in this forum but I am very knowledgeable in this particular area (schooling in neuroscience) and think I could help you out. Notice that I put "dot com" in the links so that I could post this as it is my first time posting in this forum.

When looking at the brain and human memory you have to consider a variety of things which increase ability to store, process, and recall information:

1) Cerebral blood flow - Neurons require large portions of our bodily blood flow to function effectively. More blood flow equates to increased oxygenation, which is required for energy formation from the powerhouse of our cells, mitochondria. More blood flow also increases nutrient and protein availability in order to express brain relevant genes and help in the conversion of precursor nutrients into relevant molecules that are required for optimal brain processing.

2) Adequate supply of nutrients required for the formation of neurotransmitters - these include amino acids such as tyrosine (adrenaline/epinephrine, noradrenaline/norepinephrine and dopamine), tryptophan (precursor to serotonin), acetyl-CoA and choline (precursors to acetylcholine formation), etc.

3) A large supply of antioxidants - When parts of your brain are very active then generate large quantities of reactive oxygen species (ROS) which go on to damage cellular proteins, cell membranes, etc. Antioxidants act to "mop up" these ROS and prevent their eventual "brain fog" causing properties.

4) Excitability level - Neurons only send transmission after they have received enough activation in order to "fire" and send on their signal. The most prevalent source of excitation for cerebral cortex neurons is through activation of glutamate channels. This excitation is mainly opposed by GABA and glycine, which effectively blunt the signal as they are inhibitory.

5) Levels of neuronal branching - Neurons receive signals through their dendrites, which are like the arms of a tree. The more interconnections between neurons, the more dendrites there will be, and the more information the system can hold (more connections between concepts are able to be formed).

6) Metabolic health - Neurons, as cells, are required to produce large amounts of ATP (the energy molecule of the cell). More ATP means that they can fire more times without getting as exhausted.

Alright, now that you have a little background let’s get in to what to do to boost brain function. Here are the basics first:

A) A general multivitamin (best/cheapest I find is LifeExtension's 2 per day multi's) - Provide you with the general nutrients to manufacture brain chemicals. I buy mine from iherb dot com. You can use my coupon code "DET108" for $5 off if you are a first time customer (if you don't want to use my referral coupon, "BUY123" is the generic one for iherb where you still get $5 off but don't give anyone commission).
cool.gif Get plenty of exercise - While not a nootropic pill per say, this one is one of the best for increasing levels of nerve growth factor (NGF) and brain derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF), both of which increase the amount of dendrite branching and increase connections between difficult concepts, which helps with memory and with solving problems.
C) Get AT LEAST 8 hours of sleep a night - helps with keeping neuron energy stores high and promotes larger brain levels of NGF and BDNF.

After you have those ones down pact, here are the supplements/drugs/herbs that will help you out. Most can be bought from iherb dot com or nutrabio dot com (cheapest sources). Take all on an empty stomach. All separate doses should be taken 4-6 hours apart. Do not take less than 4 hours before bed:

D) Coenzyme Q10 + Bioperine - Aids in ATP production in cells. Bioperine, which is usually found combined with CoQ10 helps with absorption of many different nootropics - recommend 100-200mg per day divided between 2 separate doses
E) Acetyl L Carnitine (ALCAR) - Acts as an acetyl donor in the formation of acetylcholine. Helps transport fatty acids across the mitochondrial cell membrane to be used in the production of ATP. Increases receptors for NGF - Take 500mg, divided into 2 equal doses per day
F) Acetyl L Carnitine Arginate (ALCA) - Much of the same purpose as ALCAR, but the additional arginate enables the molecule to interact directly with the NGF receptors which ALCAR increased. - take 100-200mg per day, in 2 separate doses
G) Lion's Mane mushroom - Has a host of benefits including immune system boosting effects. Main effect you are looking for is its ability to stimulate NGF receptors. - Take 2-3 grams per day, in 2-3 divided doses. Cheapest source of this is "fungihealth dot com/affiliate/450", but the bulk 1 lb powder (yes this is an affiliate link, if you don't want to support me at all you can just remove the affiliate portion of the link). Lion's mane can also be purchased from iherb and some other sources on the internet. You want to make sure that the source you buy from uses extracted mycelium, and not only the fruiting body of the mushroom, as the myecilium contains the most active NGF boosting molecules (erinacines).
H) Choline citrate/bitartrate/Alpha-GPC/Etc. - act as the choline donor in the formation of acetylcholine - take up to 500mg per day, divided into 2 doses
I) Ginkgo biloba - Increases cerebral blood flow and acts as a antioxidant. - Use 50-100mg, divided into 2 separate doses
J) Gotu Kola, Rhodiola Rosea, Eleuthero, Brahmi - These ones have pretty complex mechanisms of action, but in short they acts to reduce stress from long study hours, increase attention, act as antioxidants, boost levels of synaptic neurotransmitters or act directly on neurotransmitter receptors. I recommend relatively low doses of these when combined together and when taken with the other supplements on this list. Gotu Kola - 100mg, Rhodiola Rosea - 50mg, Eleuthero - 100mg, Brahmi - 100mg. Divide all of these into 2 separate doses.
K) (Optional) Resveratrol - Increases the number and function of mitochondria within neural cells, helping with metabolic health and increasing levels of ATP. This one is also seen as an anti-aging aid as it increases expression of genes associated with long life (I won't get too much into that here). Take between 50-500mg (based on how much money you have to spend) in 2 divided doses.
L) Omega 3 fatty acids - Help with cell membrane stability, increases ability to concentrate and relieves stress over the long term. - Take up to five 1g capsules per day.


Here is one that you won't hear on most forums: Reduce your usage of piracetam/oxiracetam/etc. The racetams increase coordination between different brain areas, thereby increasing a brain wave pattern called "alpha waves". Sounds good doesn't it??? What most people don't understand is that the brain does its best work (most complex processing of information) when in a "beta wave" state. In contrast to the "beta" name, beta waves are actually of higher frequency than alpha waves. This means that there is less coordination between large sections of brain tissue. This is actually a good thing and I will explain why: Each brain area can be seen as a small parallel processor which is specific for a certain type of information. A small chunk of brain area from the occipital lobe of your brain processes only one aspect of visual information, and nothing else. Now, the racetams force larger brain areas to process info that they were never intended to process. This means that instead of an area of 5 mm cubic processing the equation "5+5=?", you would then have an area of 10 mm cubic processing this same task. As you can gather from this, it would be much better to have 2000 small parallel processors working on separate chunks of info and have a really good system in place to combine the information from the separate processors, then to use very large brain areas to process very simple concepts. In a study, physicists were given piracetam before attempting difficult physics problems; it was found to actually decrease their ability to process complex information (I don't have the reference for this off-hand, but you can look it up on pubmed if you are interested). The alpha waves associated with piracetam are associated with repetitive and moreso automatic tasks. They are really good for concentration if you are doing regular 9-5 jobs, but for intense study sessions, exams and complex material, I would keep their use to a minimum.

Cheers,

mban


This is quite good, especially the early parts. I love the way you put this information and I use several of these pretty much for your stated reasons, including Lion's Mane, Acetyl L Carnitine Arginate, Choline, Ginko, Resveratrol, and etc. There are other choices for stress reduction including bacopa and/or artichoke extract. Also cAMP increase can help a lot with something like forskolin.

I'm not sure about the second part as there may be trade-offs there. I believe in cycling, as no stack should be forever. Aniracetam seems to relax social anxiety for many and leads to more fluid interaction. That itself is a form of intelligence. If I'm trying to up analytical skills I would use something else.

There is the building up of diverse background knowledge, the ability to find what problems are important to solve (looking for what forests are even worth exploring), then there's problem solving as in abstractions or creative connections for arts.

There is also social skills like group speaking. If I am speaking am I trying to argue and win as in debate or rhetoric, or am I passing the talking stick as in trying to produce a fecund discussion that involves many people and everyone gets their say. If I'm trying for a fecund discussion, then how much critical discussion is allowed and what form to actually produce something worthwhile. do I use something like Pixar's model of group discussion or something else.

My major point here is that racetams tend to help group interaction, and since group and team interaction is a major force these days in solving problems that individuals can't crack, perhaps they have a place.
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Gamma Waves
post Jul 21, 2012, 04:16 PM
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QUOTE(mban @ Feb 28, 2012, 05:38 PM) *

ncbi.nlm.nih dot gov/pubmed/2641481

sciencedirect dot com /science/article/pii/S0167876099000446

ncbi.nlm.nih dot gov /pubmed/8787170

sciencedirect dot com/science/article/pii/001346949390007I



Notice also that no studies that I am aware of have demonstrated significant increases in cognitive ability, apart from slight increases in verbal fluency, on the first day of testing for young/healthy subjects. For me to spend my money on this substance as a cognitive enhancer, I would need specific proof of increased cognitive ability tested from all domains OR that it allows for increased duration of mental effort at a high capacity.


Mban



Many of the studies are meaningless as they do not test what's important and/or the tests are set up wrong with biases.

If you want to know what works, even if it's destructive, look into what various students, writers, and artists have used and why. Adderall and various ADD and ADHD drugs are the study drugs of choice on campuses today. They are used for "cramming" and all-nighters, so students can pass tests with good grades, and get papers finished on time. Amphetamines of all kinds push the dopamine system, and that speeds up working memory, analytical connections, and allows tons of detailed work to get done on what would ordinarily be boring areas. Attention and attention span is the important equation here, and not general increased cognitive ability.

The question is can noots do some of this over longer periods of time with actual interesting material, rather than assigned garbage that one is short-terming for the grades and teacher? And without the negative results of amphetamines. If so maybe there are tradeoffs and you would need different noots for different results.

What's worth learning is a primary issue over whether or not noots work. Or noots work for what, boring college studies? People will keep taking amphetamines for that to get an edge.

Many noots are medium to long term in helping and not like the above quick fix. Lion's Mane and other NGF or NBGF enhancers take many weeks and often months to have an increased cognitive ability effects, so testing for reusts short term is pretty silly. There are substances that give some of the abilities of amphetamines without the strong destructive features of amphetamines, but even they take a week or two to kick in, therefore not a "cramming" solution.
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Tone
post Jul 21, 2012, 04:28 PM
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QUOTE(Jakare @ Jul 20, 2012, 06:33 AM) *

QUOTE(alisha99 @ Jul 20, 2012, 11:08 AM) *

My stack:

Piracetam- 800mg one time or twice in a day.
Deprenyl- 15mg to 30mg per day.

That is well inside the MAO-A Inhibition area (everything above 10-15mg/day)!!!
What if you get a cheesy snack and before realizing you have eaten half the bag or drank a glass of wine??? Such mistakes can happen specially when you are so busy feeling great and fixing the world...
I am just worried about you alisha99.


I dont know how people can stand the feeling of unselective global & overall increase on monoamine transmitters. It is very specific transmitter pathways that cause improvements for various people. This is like using a volume control instead of a parametric equalizer.
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KoolK3n
post Jul 21, 2012, 09:40 PM
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QUOTE(Gamma Waves @ Jul 21, 2012, 07:16 PM) *

Amphetamines of all kinds push the dopamine system, and that speeds up working memory, analytical connections, and allows tons of detailed work to get done on what would ordinarily be boring areas. Attention and attention span is the important equation here, and not general increased cognitive ability.


While Adderall can help with cramming (even though that is a terrible excuse), I save it for when I absolutely need it such as important debates or social events. Substitution with Modafinil for studying. Much safer and cheaper alternative.
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KoolK3n
post Jul 21, 2012, 09:49 PM
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QUOTE(Tone @ Jul 21, 2012, 07:28 PM) *

I dont know how people can stand the feeling of unselective global & overall increase on monoamine transmitters. It is very specific transmitter pathways that cause improvements for various people. This is like using a volume control instead of a parametric equalizer.


It is messy work I agree, but its the only thing that noticeably works especially dopamine. Can you explain the method for opening up the specific pathways you've mentioned? I have yet to see one.
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Tone
post Jul 22, 2012, 08:42 AM
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QUOTE(KoolK3n @ Jul 22, 2012, 12:49 AM) *

QUOTE(Tone @ Jul 21, 2012, 07:28 PM) *

I dont know how people can stand the feeling of unselective global & overall increase on monoamine transmitters. It is very specific transmitter pathways that cause improvements for various people. This is like using a volume control instead of a parametric equalizer.


It is messy work I agree, but its the only thing that noticeably works especially dopamine. Can you explain the method for opening up the specific pathways you've mentioned? I have yet to see one.


Well the easiest example is stablon because it increases specific limbic dopamine in such a way where its used as an antidepressant, yet the other properties of dopamine such as schizoid symptoms or anxiety do not occur. It also selectively lowers serotonin in such a way that low serotonin negative symptoms dont seem to be created, rather only the removal of excess serotonin negative symptoms occurs.

While Stablon is the simplest and easiest example of high selectivity, there are many others. Opioids seem to selectively inhibit a GABA pathway that attenuated limbic dopamine, rather than inhibit GABA in such a way as to create seizures or panic attacks.

an MAOI disables the mechanism by which monoamine transmitters, the Catecholamines + Serotonin are metabolized, therefore we would call this a rather un-selective drug that turns the overall volume up
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Tone
post Jul 22, 2012, 08:47 AM
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QUOTE(KoolK3n @ Jul 22, 2012, 12:49 AM) *

QUOTE(Tone @ Jul 21, 2012, 07:28 PM) *

I dont know how people can stand the feeling of unselective global & overall increase on monoamine transmitters. It is very specific transmitter pathways that cause improvements for various people. This is like using a volume control instead of a parametric equalizer.


It is messy work I agree, but its the only thing that noticeably works especially dopamine. Can you explain the method for opening up the specific pathways you've mentioned? I have yet to see one.



Perhaps you can see if Ritalin works for you as it is better from the brain-health than Amps. Why is this? because its more of a re-uptake inhibitor than a release-forcer. Releasers tend to increase oxidation more than a reuptake inhibitor, as a general tendency.
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Gamma Waves
post Jul 22, 2012, 04:43 PM
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Tone,

I ordered some Stablon from your recommendations. I have tons of things to learn, but not college and not business. It has not arrived yet. I'd really like to see if this stuff works for me.

Noots such as Aniracetam do sharpen my attention somewhat, but I'm curious about something that may help me stay on track with creative focus and put a lot of material together. I'm literally reading about a full book a day of fairly hard material (it requires reflection to get it down). Plus I'm still working 40 hours per week, and sometimes more.

So far just the intent to do what I want to do, and meditation have the best results. Oh, along with sleep and physical exercise of course. Noots are a help, but secondary.

I do get a bit down when I can't accomplish everything I need to do.
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mban
post Jul 22, 2012, 10:51 PM
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QUOTE(Gamma Waves @ Jul 21, 2012, 06:16 PM) *

If you want to know what works, even if it's destructive, look into what various students, writers, and artists have used and why. Adderall and various ADD and ADHD drugs are the study drugs of choice on campuses today. They are used for "cramming" and all-nighters, so students can pass tests with good grades, and get papers finished on time. Amphetamines of all kinds push the dopamine system, and that speeds up working memory, analytical connections, and allows tons of detailed work to get done on what would ordinarily be boring areas. Attention and attention span is the important equation here, and not general increased cognitive ability.

The question is can noots do some of this over longer periods of time with actual interesting material, rather than assigned garbage that one is short-terming for the grades and teacher? And without the negative results of amphetamines. If so maybe there are tradeoffs and you would need different noots for different results.

What's worth learning is a primary issue over whether or not noots work. Or noots work for what, boring college studies? People will keep taking amphetamines for that to get an edge.

Many noots are medium to long term in helping and not like the above quick fix. Lion's Mane and other NGF or NBGF enhancers take many weeks and often months to have an increased cognitive ability effects, so testing for reusts short term is pretty silly. There are substances that give some of the abilities of amphetamines without the strong destructive features of amphetamines, but even they take a week or two to kick in, therefore not a "cramming" solution.


You misunderstand me: I do NOT want to help people buy things that will help them cram for a test. I agree with your comment that it is much better to invest money in supplements that increase NGF, BDNF, etc. that will increase cognitive ability over the long term and are not quick fixes.

What I was saying previously was that the racetams simply haven't been shown to increase analytical/reasoning skills, yet thousands of students still take them in huge quantities without knowing their mechanism of action in the CNS. Notice that the original poster is an engineering student and therefore analytical reasoning will be highly essential along his path. I was simply cautioning against taking the large combo's of racetams that many on these boards suggest as they most likely won't help him achieve his end goals.

Better to spend the money on good organic foods/greens, general health supplements (e.g. Coenzyme Q10), exercise (gym membership?), and on other things essential to a healthy lifestyle.

QUOTE

Many of the studies are meaningless as they do not test what's important and/or the tests are set up wrong with biases.

What do you define as important in a study that is looking at electrophysiology/EEG data before and after treatment?
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KoolK3n
post Jul 23, 2012, 06:04 AM
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QUOTE(Tone @ Jul 22, 2012, 11:47 AM) *

Perhaps you can see if Ritalin works for you as it is better from the brain-health than Amps. Why is this? because its more of a re-uptake inhibitor than a release-forcer. Releasers tend to increase oxidation more than a reuptake inhibitor, as a general tendency.


I will be experimenting with methylphenidates in the coming months. Yes, from a brain-health perspective, MPHs are a safer alternative. I cannot say the same about the results though. Actually, coadministration with MPHs may attenuate some of the damage of AMPHs.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2701286/
http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/304/3/1181.abstract

Wanna try Sulbutiamine before though.
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KoolK3n
post Jul 23, 2012, 06:06 AM
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QUOTE(Tone @ Jul 22, 2012, 11:42 AM) *

QUOTE(KoolK3n @ Jul 22, 2012, 12:49 AM) *

QUOTE(Tone @ Jul 21, 2012, 07:28 PM) *

I dont know how people can stand the feeling of unselective global & overall increase on monoamine transmitters. It is very specific transmitter pathways that cause improvements for various people. This is like using a volume control instead of a parametric equalizer.


It is messy work I agree, but its the only thing that noticeably works especially dopamine. Can you explain the method for opening up the specific pathways you've mentioned? I have yet to see one.


Well the easiest example is stablon because it increases specific limbic dopamine in such a way where its used as an antidepressant, yet the other properties of dopamine such as schizoid symptoms or anxiety do not occur. It also selectively lowers serotonin in such a way that low serotonin negative symptoms dont seem to be created, rather only the removal of excess serotonin negative symptoms occurs.

While Stablon is the simplest and easiest example of high selectivity, there are many others. Opioids seem to selectively inhibit a GABA pathway that attenuated limbic dopamine, rather than inhibit GABA in such a way as to create seizures or panic attacks.


Besides costs, how come many users discontinue Stablon in less than a month? Many report a return in their previous symptoms such as anxiety, depression, etc.
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Tone
post Jul 23, 2012, 08:26 AM
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I dont read the board as much as you do, are you noticing people say they use it only for a month or something? My guess would be because its costly and takes long to get, and because it gives a person a break from stress, like vacations do, and it doesn't tend to cause withdrawal, so people don't mind going on a temporary course of it. Thats a guess.
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casa861
post Jul 23, 2012, 09:29 AM
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Hi, thank you to all of these conversations, now, I think I've settled on a nootropic with no side effects and safe efficacy.Io thought of a stack containing:
morning:
5 g creatine buffered (every day)
Huperzine 200 mcg (five days a week)
choline bitrartato 1 g (every day)
Pyritinol 300 mg (five days a week)
afternoon:
Huperzine 200 mcg (five days a week)
Pyritinol 300 mg (five days a week)
evening:
lion mane 500 mg
While in use Saturday and Sunday:
Piracetam 5 grams morning and evening
500 mg of lion mane morning and evening
choline bitrartato 1 g.1 time per day.
You, what do you think? Also, for you, follow a similar regime for a long time, is secure? Thank you all in advance.
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Gamma Waves
post Jul 23, 2012, 10:42 AM
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mban,

I've been reading a number of books on brain science lately, and they are popular books, so likely to be oversimplified to reach broad audiences. That is exactly what I need though is a broad overview of many related or semi-related fields to create perspectives I'm looking into for my own interests and for interesting discussions.

To use an example: "A Technique for Producing Ideas" is a booklet authored by an Ad man of the 1940's and 50's. What could he possibly have to say about the new brain science and study of cognition? If you look at it from the old model that you get your 10,000 to 20,000 hours of concentrated study under good to great mentors to develop you into your tight nitch, not very much. Yet these Advertising Men and Market People were striking examples of people who could mine the most banal subjects and come up with sometimes fantastic ideas to sell everyday products.

His idea about idea people is that good idea people have a powerful interest in everything, they are extremely well read, and they actually care about the diverse material they read. These people had and have a search light conscious that absorbs vast terrain, and they do it over a lifetime. This search light consciousness has been called, "Klondike Roving," by a Harvard professor, David Perkins, whose speciality is learning, and learning about learning, and learning about teaching. He has a strong interest in breakthrough thinking. What David did not know when he wrote his books on breakthrough thinking was that in the late 1990's and early 2000's brain science has become more and more interested in his Education area and how it could be tested through brain science.

There are these questions called "insight puzzles" that throw various non-sequential curve balls at solvers and are often difficult to solve by completely logical people. People who solve these problems have been hooked up to various EEG and even MRI devices and the brain waves that come before the solutions are in several parts: First, a relaxed alpha wave pattern that could be metaphored as relaxed searching (as different from the beta wave direct problem solving of sequential thinking), Second, there is a very brief, but obvious fraction of a second burst of Gamma Waves from the aSTG a short time before (from a second or two up to eight seconds) that the puzzle solver reaches an Aha! moment and solves the puzzle, Third, the puzzle solver goes back to alpha or even beta waves in the brain.

My point is not an attack on you. You have excellent information. I'm just trying to illustrate a wider story. I'm interested in the possibility of fertile discussions that go beyond mere arguing/debate/winning. Team knowledge and group discussions of a fecund nature are the new order.

As far as direct problem solving goes, as in a logical approach, I have only issues that it is not complete, especially today. I like logic and have gone over a graduate level course in symbolic logic in the past, but I'm aware of limitations, and use other models when logic gets underfoot. Today many of the knottist chemisty problems that have been around for years end up getting solved by physics people or biochemists, and that's where it's going -- people solving problems outside their own worlds and professional areas, by people involved with similar yet different disiplines. On the other hand, I have run into some cool books lately on direct logical problem solving, and I wish I knew about them before, but enough for now.

I didn't answer your questions direct. I felt that you were not suggesting cheap solutions, I was just putting out here what is actually going on too often on campuses. Looking for new territories in brain wave research is a Klondike Roving Search to find intellectual gold. More to say later.
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KoolK3n
post Jul 23, 2012, 11:19 AM
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QUOTE(Tone @ Jul 23, 2012, 11:26 AM) *

I dont read the board as much as you do, are you noticing people say they use it only for a month or something? My guess would be because its costly and takes long to get, and because it gives a person a break from stress, like vacations do, and it doesn't tend to cause withdrawal, so people don't mind going on a temporary course of it. Thats a guess.


http://www.pharmacyreviewer.com/forum/esca...xperiences.html
http://www.socialanxietysupport.com/forum/...757/index2.html

I retract stating that I would use it recreationally. Will probably instead cycle. But even then I'm not sure. Costs are just too high.
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Tone
post Jul 23, 2012, 01:43 PM
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I feel bad all of the time since my birth, unless I take some Stablon, then it wears off in 1 hour. Right now at this current moment, I would describe my state as strong dysphoric drowsiness where moving is very difficult.
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Gamma Waves
post Jul 23, 2012, 04:26 PM
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QUOTE(casa861 @ Jul 23, 2012, 12:29 PM) *

Hi, thank you to all of these conversations, now, I think I've settled on a nootropic with no side effects and safe efficacy.Io thought of a stack containing:
morning:
5 g creatine buffered (every day)
Huperzine 200 mcg (five days a week)
choline bitrartato 1 g (every day)
Pyritinol 300 mg (five days a week)
afternoon:
Huperzine 200 mcg (five days a week)
Pyritinol 300 mg (five days a week)
evening:
lion mane 500 mg
While in use Saturday and Sunday:
Piracetam 5 grams morning and evening
500 mg of lion mane morning and evening
choline bitrartato 1 g.1 time per day.
You, what do you think? Also, for you, follow a similar regime for a long time, is secure? Thank you all in advance.


Casa,

I just reread your OP and at 230 pounds it's likely you are a guy so, here is an idea.

There is a very mild steroid called AndroDrive that enhances mental sharpness quite a lot. It helps with problem solving type detailed work such as college courses. It gves drive with clear mental focus. this stuff will not hurt liver, kidneys, or heart like the harsh stuff. It's a slightly altered DHEA with pregnenolone formula with an enhancing or potentiating carrier. I used this once when I needed to improve some analytic skills. One bottle last 8 weeks, but it's a bit pricey at $80 + $5 shipping. You can probably use this up to 10 - 12 weeks at 3 pills per day taklen all at once. It takes 3-4 days to really kick in, but then has many of the benifits of strong stims without a burnout effect. About 4 per day is most one should take if using as a noot. It will help to lose weight while actually building a small amount of strength and muscle. It's a mild recomp steroid, so it isn't like the strong stuff and will not pile on muscle. There is probably more people that use it for it's concentration, noot abilities than the weight loss and muscle building side. One bottle at 3 per day lasts 8 weeks, and that's all I needed, but you could try adding extra pregnenolone at 25 mg to give it a boost (I didn't need a boost).

It does have some minor masculinizing effects, so taboo for women. I don't have any connection with the company that sells this, otherwise than one test cycle that worked well for me.
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mban
post Jul 23, 2012, 05:05 PM
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QUOTE(Gamma Waves @ Jul 23, 2012, 06:26 PM) *

Casa,

I cannot tell whether you are male or female. It does make a difference for the recommendation I'm going to suggest. There is a very mild steroid called AndroDrive that enhances mental sharpness quite a lot. It helps with problem solving type detailed work such as college courses. It gves drive with clear mental focus. this stuff will not hurt liver, kidneys, or heart like the harsh stuff. It's a slightly altered DHEA with pregnenolone formula with an enhancing or potentiating carrier. I used this once when I needed to improve some analytic skills. One bottle last 8 weeks, but it's a bit pricey at $80 + $5 shipping. You can probably use this up to 10 - 12 weeks at 3 pills per day taklen all at once. It takes 3-4 days to really kick in, but then has many of the benifits of strong stims without a burnout effect. About 4 per day is most one should take if using as a noot. It will help to lose weight while actually building a small amount of strength and muscle. It's a mild recomp steroid, so it isn't like the strong stuff and will not pile on muscle. There is probably more people that use it for it's concentration, noot abilities than the weight loss and muscle building side. One bottle at 3 per day lasts 8 weeks, and that's all I needed, but you could try adding extra pregnenolone at 25 mg to give it a boost (I didn't need a boost).

It does have some minor masculinizing effects, so taboo for women. I don't have any connection with the company that sells this, otherwise than one test cycle that worked well for me.


I would not suggest using an androgenic product like that for any period of time. You will screw with your body's endocrine system. At 25 years old, casa is definitely not in a position where he will be producing suboptimal amounts of DHEA or pregnenolone. AndroDrive contains massive doses of both. There is no need to supplement with this product. I guess you could take it if you want massive acne, testosterone rage, irritability and insomnia...

Seeing as Androdrive already contains 51mg of a high absorption form of pregnenolone (Super-5-PREG™ (3-beta-enanthoyloxy-5-en-20-one)), it would be ridiculous to try to add another 25mg of pregnenolone on top of it.
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KoolK3n
post Jul 23, 2012, 05:16 PM
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QUOTE(Tone @ Jul 23, 2012, 04:43 PM) *

I feel bad all of the time since my birth, unless I take some Stablon, then it wears off in 1 hour. Right now at this current moment, I would describe my state as strong dysphoric drowsiness where moving is very difficult.


Could that possibly hint at another medical condition? Have you seen a specialist?
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Gamma Waves
post Jul 24, 2012, 03:11 AM
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QUOTE(mban @ Jul 23, 2012, 08:05 PM) *

QUOTE(Gamma Waves @ Jul 23, 2012, 06:26 PM) *

Casa,

I cannot tell whether you are male or female. It does make a difference for the recommendation I'm going to suggest. There is a very mild steroid called AndroDrive that enhances mental sharpness quite a lot. It helps with problem solving type detailed work such as college courses. It gves drive with clear mental focus. this stuff will not hurt liver, kidneys, or heart like the harsh stuff. It's a slightly altered DHEA with pregnenolone formula with an enhancing or potentiating carrier. I used this once when I needed to improve some analytic skills. One bottle last 8 weeks, but it's a bit pricey at $80 + $5 shipping. You can probably use this up to 10 - 12 weeks at 3 pills per day taklen all at once. It takes 3-4 days to really kick in, but then has many of the benifits of strong stims without a burnout effect. About 4 per day is most one should take if using as a noot. It will help to lose weight while actually building a small amount of strength and muscle. It's a mild recomp steroid, so it isn't like the strong stuff and will not pile on muscle. There is probably more people that use it for it's concentration, noot abilities than the weight loss and muscle building side. One bottle at 3 per day lasts 8 weeks, and that's all I needed, but you could try adding extra pregnenolone at 25 mg to give it a boost (I didn't need a boost).

It does have some minor masculinizing effects, so taboo for women. I don't have any connection with the company that sells this, otherwise than one test cycle that worked well for me.


I would not suggest using an androgenic product like that for any period of time. You will screw with your body's endocrine system. At 25 years old, casa is definitely not in a position where he will be producing suboptimal amounts of DHEA or pregnenolone. AndroDrive contains massive doses of both. There is no need to supplement with this product. I guess you could take it if you want massive acne, testosterone rage, irritability and insomnia...

Seeing as Androdrive already contains 51mg of a high absorption form of pregnenolone (Super-5-PREG™ (3-beta-enanthoyloxy-5-en-20-one)), it would be ridiculous to try to add another 25mg of pregnenolone on top of it.


mban,

I posted to casa for two reasons: first I believe my advice was the best real world advice for him to do well in school, and second, I wanted to see if you would jump all over it and attack, and you did not disappoint. You are predictable, and that is disappointing, as there was an off chance you would be wiser. Yet I did want to see where you are at, and I was intending to not post on this forum again until I ran into the intelligence suggested by the early part of your posting to casa. I was hoping you might have an open mind with real world knowledge. You see, in the real college world, right now, today, nearly 20% of the students at the larger universities and colleges admit to using various ADD and Narcolepsy drugs when they seriously need to get things done. That's the ones who admit using them! Pressure to perform. I start with this assumption and that those drugs really are dangerous, and that few of those students are going to acknowledge the degree of usage. You come on here and do have some good advice, but attack racetams because they make the brain less efficient at problem solving, and you are sort of, kind of, correct, but it's not the full story. You leave someone like casa no real answers, so what is he likely to do during crunch time when big papers are due, or when finals are coming. Maybe he knows this guy with an ADD drug or a narcolepsy drug scripts, that doesn't use them all himself, and for a few bucks...... well that's the real world.

I was leaving before you arrived, and now that has not changed. Bye

You should stick around. I think you'll fit in well with this board. Have fun!
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