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corruptnova
post Oct 15, 2011, 06:17 PM
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I'm just looking for advice before I start ordering some nootropics that I might not need. As you might have guess... I'm new to nootropics, as well as Brain Meta.

I've done some homework and this is what I've come up with for a stack.

Height -> 6'0
Weight -> 61kg (135lbs)
Age -> 20

Stack:
Piracetam -> 800mg
Citicoline -> 500mg
DMAE -> 250mg
DL-Phenylalanine -> 375mg
ALCAR -> 500mg
Rainbow Light Men's One multi (I would have posted the supplement data but, it looks like I can't post URL just yet)

All doses are what I plan to start off with.
I am slightly worried about that amount of ACh this stack might produce, I'm not 100% sure which is why I'm asking.
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Jakare
post Oct 15, 2011, 07:06 PM
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I would get rid of DMAE, is redundant with Citicoline. Or even better as Citicoline is expensive i would go for plane choline "citrate or bitartrate" which is dirty cheap and will do the same uping Ach...

Anyway Citicoline dose seems a bit high to me. I woudnīt go higher than 250mg but with choline one never knows, everyone is different.
Piracetam dose is ok but take it on an empty stomach as Alcar, if you donīt feel anything at all after a few days consider a higher dose.

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corruptnova
post Oct 15, 2011, 07:15 PM
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Why is it that piracetam and ALCAR need to be taken on an empty stomach?
I think I'll stick with citicoline with a lower dose... Jarrow's Formula is pretty cheap but, thanks for the DMAE advice, saves me a few $. smile.gif
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Jakare
post Oct 15, 2011, 07:28 PM
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Well my personal experience tells me so and because they are water-soluble. Because Alcar if taken with food will need to compite with other aminoacids to be absorbed. Because sometimes piracetam effect is so subtle if you take it with food it would make itīs absortion a lot slower reaching lower plasma peaks. Althoug some say it is better to take it with fish oil...

Aniracetam on the other hand is fat-soluble so fat actually helps to its absortion but weīve got the same here, eating a lot with it would retard absortion and consecuently plasma peak. Some take it on empty stomach aswell and they say is fine...

Just try different ways and choose by yourself.
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corruptnova
post Oct 16, 2011, 07:34 PM
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One more thing... in combination, is there any risk of ACh posioning? My friend warned me that it could happen when dabbling in nootropics.
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Jakare
post Oct 16, 2011, 07:51 PM
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ACh poisoning? Do you mean overdose, donīt you? You donīt need to combine anything to get that, a single high dose of any choline source would do the job.

If you are concerned about it start Citicoline at 125mg or so, if you donīt get neck and/or shoulder and/or jaw tension/pain or nausea i would say it is safe to rise the dose to 250mg and so on...

More care should be taken if combined with an Acetylcholinesterase Inhibitor like Huperzine A or Galantamine and lower doses will be recommendable.
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Flex
post Oct 16, 2011, 07:53 PM
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You are good. Nothing too crazy going on there. I would cut the phenylalanine myself, but to each his own. ACh will make you flush before you are going to do yourself any harm. No AChE inhibitors in your stack so you don't have to worry too much as Jakare pointed out.
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KoolK3n
post Oct 16, 2011, 08:30 PM
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Would you rather take a high dose of ACh or a low dose of both ACh and AChE inhibitors?

Of course, you can't take a dose of ACh since it is the result but you get the point*
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corruptnova
post Oct 16, 2011, 08:57 PM
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QUOTE(KoolK3n @ Oct 16, 2011, 08:30 PM) *

Would you rather take a high dose of ACh or a low dose of both ACh and AChE inhibitors?

Of course, you can't take a dose of ACh since it is the result but you get the point*


I'd probably go for a high dose of ACh.
Correct me if I'm misinformed but, it seems that ACh very quickly degraded by AChE so even producing a high dose of ACh would probably reverse itself fairly quick.
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Flex
post Oct 16, 2011, 09:03 PM
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AChE is really there to recycle ACh. This discussion is a bit off base with the reality of the biochemistry smile.gif To be fair, the biochemistry is not well understood anyhow. Check out findings on carnitine and choline excretion--much more relevant and interesting!
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KoolK3n
post Oct 17, 2011, 08:41 AM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Oct 17, 2011, 12:03 AM) *

AChE is really there to recycle ACh.


I know you can develop a tolerance to Galantamine, but can the same be said with Huperzine-A? It is generally recommended to take Galantamine from once every three days to even just once a week. I am curious because Onnit (Nootropic Company) has their biggest product, AlphaBrain containing Huperzine-A.
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corruptnova
post Oct 18, 2011, 01:17 PM
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So, the ALCAR and Piracetam came in this morning... I had tried the ALCAR alone at 350mg as soon as it arrived.
Everything was fine until about 20-30 mins after ingestion, I went into a full blown anxiety attack that lasted for 30 minutes.

Now, I use to have panic disorder and this is the first time I've had a anxiety attack in about a year and a half so it might be a coincidence so, I might not have shaken off my PD quite yet.

Anyone ever hear of something similar happening to someone?
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Jakare
post Oct 18, 2011, 02:37 PM
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Yes, I had more or less the same problem if i take 500mg of Alcar daily for a week. Once I reduced the dose at 250mg a day Iīm ok.
Try cutting your dose by half or so.
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corruptnova
post Oct 18, 2011, 03:36 PM
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Hmm, thats odd though... a lot of literature I've read tells me that ALCAR is potentially useful for anti-anxiety. Maybe I'm just sensitive to it?
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Jakare
post Oct 18, 2011, 04:42 PM
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QUOTE(corruptnova @ Oct 19, 2011, 01:36 AM) *

Hmm, thats odd though... a lot of literature I've read tells me that ALCAR is potentially useful for anti-anxiety. Maybe I'm just sensitive to it?

It does promote anxiety only at high doses, what a high dose is for you depends of your particular biochemistry...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15383157
The well known inverted U-shaped curve strikes again...
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KoolK3n
post Oct 19, 2011, 05:12 AM
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These are drugs that mimic acetylcholine on the receptor. In low doses, they stimulate the receptors, in high they numb them due to depolarisation block.
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LeeCrostM.D.
post May 16, 2012, 08:06 PM
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QUOTE(corruptnova @ Oct 16, 2011, 07:34 PM) *

One more thing... in combination, is there any risk of ACh posioning? My friend warned me that it could happen when dabbling in nootropics.


Actual poisoning is highly unlikely unless you are taking very high doses of AChE inhibitors by itself or in combination with ACh precursors.

QUOTE(KoolK3n @ Oct 17, 2011, 08:41 AM) *

QUOTE(Flex @ Oct 17, 2011, 12:03 AM) *

AChE is really there to recycle ACh.


I know you can develop a tolerance to Galantamine, but can the same be said with Huperzine-A? It is generally recommended to take Galantamine from once every three days to even just once a week. I am curious because Onnit (Nootropic Company) has their biggest product, AlphaBrain containing Huperzine-A.


You can develop a tolerance to any nootropic. The degree of tolerance varies on dosage and frequency.
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neurofire
post Jul 17, 2012, 09:37 PM
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Allow me to recommend Huperzine A, which everyone seems to be debating here. You only need 2 pills (200mcg) and the effect will last all day. You get far more bang for your buck than you would get with a choline precursor. But as everyone's saying, don't take those together!

Also, there is no point wasting your money on DL-phenylalanine; the D part is mainly a pain inhibitor, so just going with L-phenylalanine would be a lot cheaper (I bought 250g on amazon for $15!) And to each his own, but I found pramiracetam to be the best to stack with LPA, just want to throw that out there.
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alisha99
post Aug 03, 2012, 10:43 PM
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In this combination, is there any side effects of taking these supplements together???
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TheInnerWorkings
post Nov 29, 2014, 03:15 PM
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QUOTE(corruptnova @ Oct 18, 2011, 02:17 PM) *

So, the ALCAR and Piracetam came in this morning... I had tried the ALCAR alone at 350mg as soon as it arrived.
Everything was fine until about 20-30 mins after ingestion, I went into a full blown anxiety attack that lasted for 30 minutes.

Now, I use to have panic disorder and this is the first time I've had a anxiety attack in about a year and a half so it might be a coincidence so, I might not have shaken off my PD quite yet.

Anyone ever hear of something similar happening to someone?


You could try taking a GABA supplement along with a general magnesium powder or pill to help stabilize your CNS and that may help over time to stabilize your system so you don't get thrown out of whack by part of your stack.
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