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> First Day with Nootropics (Piracetam and Choline Citrate)
KoolK3n
post Sep 02, 2011, 12:28 PM
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Okay so today I took my first dosage of Piracetam and Choline Citrate...and let me tell it tasted terrible! The smell of both was tolerable but as soon as I mixed into my small cup of tea, I almost baby pucked. I am going to continue both products, but when my choline citrate runs out. I am switching over to bitartrate. Why? Because I found an awesome deal on Amazon. $15 for 500 grams!

So here are my questions:

1. I am still a teen so I am going to keep my dosage pretty low at around 1 gram of Piracetam and 500mg of Choline Citrate daily. Is that recommended?

2. With tea in general, it is nasty. So should I drink it with something else? How about juices? (Apple, grape, orange). Since they are ultra sweet, would they block out more of the bitterness than tea? What should I drink it with?

3. If Piracetam is a derivative of GABA, why shouldn't I take DMAE or Acetyl-L-Carnitine or Acetyl-L-Tyrosine or all in conjunction with Piracetam and CC (Choline Citrate)??
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Flex
post Sep 02, 2011, 05:04 PM
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Dose is probably about right. It is going to taste terrible with anything. You should look into investing in a set up to fill your own gel caps. I have taken basically all of those things together no problem, but you wont even notice them.
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KoolK3n
post Sep 03, 2011, 10:44 AM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Sep 02, 2011, 08:04 PM) *

Dose is probably about right. It is going to taste terrible with anything. You should look into investing in a set up to fill your own gel caps. I have taken basically all of those things together no problem, but you wont even notice them.


Okay thanks, today I tried something different. Instead of mixing it with tea, I put my whole daily dosage into a small shot glass and drank it with apple juice and sluged the thing down. The sweetness blocked some of the bitterness out so it wasn't as bad as the tea. I'm still gonna get a capsule filler, I might use it for other purposes as well.

Here is my last question:
If Piracetam is a derivative of GABA, why shouldn't I take DMAE or Acetyl-L-Carnitine or Acetyl-L-Tyrosine or all in conjunction with Piracetam and CC (Choline Citrate) for maximum cognitive enhancement??
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Flex
post Sep 03, 2011, 11:08 AM
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I have never heard they should not be taken together. DMAE and choline citrate would be sort of pointless, but what exactly does being a GABA derivative have to do with anything?
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KoolK3n
post Sep 03, 2011, 11:52 AM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Sep 03, 2011, 02:08 PM) *

I have never heard they should not be taken together. DMAE and choline citrate would be sort of pointless, but what exactly does being a GABA derivative have to do with anything?


In the Nootropics for Youth Topic Thread, you mentioned "New research coming out on the dangers of supplementing individual amino acids." Should I not take individual Acetyl-L-Carnitine or Acetyl-L-Tyrosine doses? And could I please see the research data? Thanks!
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Flex
post Sep 03, 2011, 05:06 PM
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The studies are particularly in regards to lysine, which makes sense, as lysine is often critical to enzymatic activity in the binding site. Amino acids can be cataplerotic or anaplerotic, and should be supplied in ideal ratios. It is best to assume that appropriate ratios are already established in natural food sources. i.e. methionine and cysteine taken in inappropriate proportions may promote heart disease due to homocysteine buildup.

Research is limited, as it is in its infancy, and funding is redirected to useless crap that doesn't and will never work effectively.

Carnitine should be fine. Chances are, you have no problems with fatty acid transport, and thus it is unnecessary. Since you are interested in cognitive enhancement however, carnitine has the ability to mimic acetylcholine (or so I have heard), which given the structural similarities makes sense. As far as tyrosine goes, IMO it is absolutely pointless. As long as you ingest enough phenylalanine in your diet, tyrosine will be produced as needed if lacking from the diet.

If you are looking to increase dopamine levels etc via this route, it is more important to have adequate PLP levels than protein levels. The reaction should only be driven by La Chatelier's principle due to lack of neurotransmitter, not excess protein. Excess protein will only be converted to other pathways aka the urea cycle.
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Flex
post Sep 03, 2011, 05:17 PM
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http://jn.nutrition.org/content/73/2/107.full.pdf

Altering Na/K ratios has a significant effect on hydration, and thus the performance of your entire body, not to mention tons of reactions involving ion gradients.
http://www.jneurosci.org/content/5/6/1483.short
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6425441
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/84/4/313.full.pdf
http://www.nature.com/ki/journal/v59/n78s/pdf/4492310a.pdf
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/75/1/61.short
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/103/4/608.full.pdf

Happy reading!
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KoolK3n
post Sep 06, 2011, 05:03 PM
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Thanks! They helped a lot!

Okay just finished most of them, I get the point now lol (Basically: High Amino Acid Intake=Bad)

Here are my Amino Acid Intake from supplementation: (mg per 4 Capsule from Amino Complete Daily)
-L-Arginine 306 MG
-L-Histidine 37 MG
-L-Isoleucine 115 MG
-L-Leucine 205 MG
-L-Lysine 185 MG
-L-Methionine 35 MG
-L-Phenylalanine 72 MG
-L-Threonine 141 MG
-L-Valine 141 MG

-L-Alanine 135 MG
-L-Aspartic acid 246 MG
-L-Cysteine 38 MG
-L-Glutamic acid 454 MG
-L-Glutamine 200 MG
-L-Glycine 167 MG
-L-Proline 179 MG
-L-Serine 106 MG
-L-Tyrosine 66 MG

Also, what are some of your brief thoughts on Fish Oil? Mine doesn't specify the EPA and DHA serving. One softgel is 1000 MG with 300 of it being Omega-3 so it is probably 500mg DHA and 200mg EPA my guess.
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Flex
post Sep 06, 2011, 07:53 PM
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I would save your money on the amino acids. If it is for cognitive enhancement, just eat some soy beans an hour before you want peak performance.

Can't argue with that amino acid breakdown:
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegeta...products/2622/2

Since you are young, I would suggest high lignan flax seed oil instead. As long as you have plenty of cofactors (vitamins) for your bodies elongases to function properly, you will raise your EPA and DHA levels over time. This will be much more cost effective, and incorporating it into your diet will force you to adopt some other healthy practices as well.

For me, I like to add my flax oil to steel cut oat meal after it has been prepared, with walnuts and dried blueberries/cranberries. Another great option is to make a morning smoothie, with soy yogurt, frozen fruits, flax, bee pollen, pumpkin/sweet potato pure and soy protein powder. Home made salad dressings are also a nice option.

It is important to go with a company that does not over process their products. A good rule of thumb is that good companies demand good practices. This means that oils will be in a refrigerator at the store, and in an opaque container.

I know I sound like a broken record, but it is the ratio of fats that is really important. You will not get a good lipid profile just by taking additional oils. In order to truly benefit, you should lower your intake of saturated fats and omega 6 fats as well.
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KoolK3n
post Sep 13, 2011, 08:58 AM
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*My status is now "Aspiring" yay...*

I have my concerns over Soy, many say Soy is actually bad for you. Of course it has some benefits, but this time the negatives outweigh. Such as, he testosterone in men is suppressed by the estrogens in soy, etc etc etc

http://www.foreverlookingood.com/soy-side-effects
http://www.ehow.com/list_6373839_disadvant...-soy-milk_.html
http://www.savvyvegetarian.com/articles/soy-truth.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soybean

I agree with you on Flax Seed Oil though! I should have got that instead of Fish Oil. I'll switch over once I'm done. Only 340 capsules left LOL.
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Flex
post Sep 13, 2011, 11:53 AM
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All they soy propaganda is just that--propaganda. The binding affinity of the phytosterols in soy relative to estradiol is about 1/1000th. This means that if anything, soy may help to increase testosterones effects by competing with estrogen binding.

On top of this, soy contains tons of fiber, which can lower serum estrogen levels by up to 30%. Complete bullshit funded by the dairy and cattle industry, who I might add represent a HUGE lobbying power!

Calling phytic acid an anti-nutrient clearly shows the author has no understanding or appreciation of biology. Just look at the foods which contain high amounts of phytic acid, do they look scary to you, or do they look like just about everything one should eat to be healthy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytic_acid#Food_science
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KoolK3n
post Sep 15, 2011, 01:32 PM
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What do you think of Mercola (Youtube channel)?
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Flex
post Sep 15, 2011, 01:59 PM
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I think he is full of shit in regards to soy. All sorts of foods are genetically modified. All his other point are just straight BS. There is a reason comments are disabled on the video! The youtube channel looks alright as a whole. A nice starting place for information at least. Just take it with a grain of salt.
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Flex
post Sep 15, 2011, 02:19 PM
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BTW I decided that rather than write the same thing 10392 times, I would just do my own spiel and link to it smile.gif Only one entry so far, but feel free to see my opinions on carnitine.

http://www.squidoo.com/cerebralhealth

Going to try to get through one a day... So I should have another month or so before it is finished. Feel free to give me suggestions for compounds you would like included.
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KoolK3n
post Sep 15, 2011, 02:43 PM
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Oh Oh! Pick me! Uh what about Resveratrol or Centrophenoxine??? Woah woah what about Yohimbine or 5-HTP? Wow that is a pretty cool idea! So far so good! Lovin it...LOL the blahs
I'll be looking forward to Galantamine! I can't seem to find much about it. That and Centrophenoxine.
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Flex
post Sep 15, 2011, 02:47 PM
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Centro is on there, just not included in nootropics as it is not listed by the NCBI. I will get to that one soon. BTW I do not consider many of the compounds on that list nootropic and will explain in each section. Another section will include substances I believe poses nootropic qualities.

A separate section will be dedicated to neutraceuticals.

Good ideas smile.gif
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KoolK3n
post Sep 15, 2011, 02:54 PM
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*Edited the last post

I can't wait!!! smile.gif
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Flex
post Sep 15, 2011, 03:13 PM
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QUOTE(KoolK3n @ Sep 15, 2011, 03:54 PM) *

*Edited the last post

I can't wait!!! smile.gif


It would be awesome if you could leave additional listings you would like to see in the comments section on there, for easy reference, since I will probably forget what forum they are posted in smile.gif
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KoolK3n
post Sep 15, 2011, 03:14 PM
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Okay I got more ideas. I'll post them now.
Alright posted!

Btw tomorrow marks the 4000th page on Recent Posts
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Flex
post Sep 15, 2011, 03:24 PM
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QUOTE(KoolK3n @ Sep 15, 2011, 04:14 PM) *

Okay I got more ideas. I'll post them now.
Alright posted!


Right on. I guess I will get to the ones you want first, since I am not trying to get views on it yet anyways. I will keep you posted on updates smile.gif
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Sheri fermanis
post Oct 06, 2011, 09:59 AM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Sep 15, 2011, 03:24 PM) *

QUOTE(KoolK3n @ Sep 15, 2011, 04:14 PM) *

Okay I got more ideas. I'll post them now.
Alright posted!


Right on. I guess I will get to the ones you want first, since I am not trying to get views on it yet anyways. I will keep you posted on updates :)


Hey Flex,
You seem to be on many posts and have answered me before... I have a question. I just ordered piracetam and wanted to know the recommended starting dosage? I am 45, 125 lbs, good health, no issues just migraines every now and then, no other meds or drugs, no alcohol. Thanks sheri
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Flex
post Oct 06, 2011, 12:55 PM
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Most people would tell you to start with a loading dose; however, it is my opinion that we should understand how a chemical interacts with our particular biology before experimenting. 500mg-1g should be more than sufficient to start off with for the first few weeks.
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Sheri fermanis
post Oct 06, 2011, 01:30 PM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Oct 06, 2011, 12:55 PM) *

Most people would tell you to start with a loading dose; however, it is my opinion that we should understand how a chemical interacts with our particular biology before experimenting. 500mg-1g should be more than sufficient to start off with for the first few weeks.

Thanks. I will start out slow and go from there. I appreciate your responses.
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Flex
post Oct 06, 2011, 05:48 PM
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It takes about a full month for it to take full effect, so patients will pay dividends smile.gif
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Sheri fermanis
post Oct 06, 2011, 06:40 PM
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Good to know - thanks! However, if I were to have adverse affects that wouldn't take a month right? So should I start slow, then build every 3 to 4 days?
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Flex
post Oct 06, 2011, 07:32 PM
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Any adverse effects would not be from the piracetam itself, but from the solvents used in the production and/or other compounds which may be included as fillers etc. Piracetam itself should be no problem. That is one of the main reasons why I do not believe in a loading phase. This holds true for pharmaceutical grade preparations as well. You simply cannot create absolutely pure compounds at a consumer price point.

I would personally start with 500mg for the first week and add another 250mg a week for the next two weeks. Then allow one week to see how it works with you, and decide if you would like more or less.

Keep in mind, it is called cognitive enhancement, so if at any point you feel you feel any side effects, sluggishness, headaches etc. cut back your dose. Less is always more. Best to let your body do its own thing.

*Lessons to remember: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsTcObwt-cg...nel_video_title (full track available soon) smile.gif

*Had to get my daily dose of shameless self promotion in!
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Sheri fermanis
post Oct 07, 2011, 05:43 AM
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Is that YOU??
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Flex
post Oct 07, 2011, 06:42 AM
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QUOTE(Sheri fermanis @ Oct 07, 2011, 06:43 AM) *

Is that YOU??


My brother. We just work and live together smile.gif
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Sheri fermanis
post Oct 07, 2011, 05:13 PM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Oct 07, 2011, 06:42 AM) *

QUOTE(Sheri fermanis @ Oct 07, 2011, 06:43 AM) *

Is that YOU??


My brother. We just work and live together :)


Totally awesome and a cutie pie too! Ok, if he has a cd out, let me know.. My sister and I would both get it!
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Flex
post Oct 07, 2011, 05:49 PM
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Coming out in a couple of months. We are releasing an EP version of the new album early November, since we booked a spot on the new Rosie (Rosie O'Donnell) show on the Oprah Winfrey Network, but wont be able to have all of the tracks mixed by the date. I will keep you informed! Feel free to add me on facebook: http://www.facebook.com/guglielmone
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