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> What makes people happy?, What makes you personally happy
orangesand
post May 15, 2011, 09:34 PM
Post #31


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To say that the education system is vile,
Ever been sick? How do you get better?
Does the education system teach people how to help/cure others?
Ever been to a sick ward(not a visiting ward in an American/Western hospital) , having to operate on patients that are shortly going to die?
The hospitals in the outskirts of Kenya are a hard work place,
operating on starving children, with minimal equipment, hoping
that a child will walk in without AIDS or starvation symptoms,
having to reverse the home made vaginal extrusions of a women
with near endless problems,
In Russia with the addicts,self -mutilators ...............
At home removing a metastasis cluster , trying to say some renal
function.
I am glad that people receive training in medicine,
its all gaiety to dismiss the local/traveling physician, until
the sickness comes upon,
Differences between us are many, vocation, places seen.....,
I would invite you to the far east of India , near the Chinese border,
working with the poor poor dying people,
I consider it rather important that I learned how to preform open heart surgery,
inject the proper amount of Chlordiazepoxide, before the Tracheotomy,
administer valproate instead of theophylline , to cut with percussion along the
hypoglossal and glossopharyngeal nerves allow room to work on the tenth.
An uneducated person would have a hard time performing trans radial throat
surgery, with sub par equipment.
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Joesus
post May 16, 2011, 06:47 AM
Post #32


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QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *

Who is older, who has more experience?(You assume)
From the statements you make yes. Your attitude and worship of the authority (system of education and its idols) as absolute, is typical of most teenagers and young adults I encounter in these subjects.

QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *

It is common for the younger of our people to believe the anti-statement,(worse for the elder ones to) As a child a mountain is seen, an adult sees a collection of particles, an old man sees a mountain..........(the learned man observes both states of the mountain and through study, realizes that the mountain is a random collection of particles, that look X way to people.)
Perhaps the long years have clouded my judgment.


Not to worry the condition is not terminal nor determined by your genes. It is determined by your points of reference.
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *

Been to China, India?
Yes as a matter of fact...
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *

There are some hard facts one observes upon visiting.

Observation is always subject to beliefs in reality. Those beliefs color our objectivity and we see what we believe is real.
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *

You mention Hitler, as is so often used (the extreme, an exception), first of what you said pertains to Heinrich
Himmler (good to actually study a topic, so one knows at least something about it),
It pertains to both. I do know a little about the subject.
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *

Did you go to school?

Many different ones and a couple in a different country other than my country of birth.
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *
If so do you see your degree as invalid and nullified?
Degrees are for the system. Knowledge does not mean wisdom. Much of what is taught is outdated and what was taught when I was in school has been replaced by the newer and updated versions.
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *

Things are more complicated in the adult world ,
Only if you were never taught to open your eyes and see.
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 05:34 AM) *

To say that the education system is vile,
Ever been sick? How do you get better?

Well interestingly enough science has found that the patient has a great deal to do with healing as well as the creation of the illness. Doctors can act as mechanics and repair what they can according to their skill and knowledge of the human body, but for the most part they can only treat the symptoms and most often the patient effects the cure thru the desire to get better.
This is often exemplified by the knowledge of the placebo effect, where the patient decides sugar is medicine and affects the way the body responds.
It used to be that doctors thought the body was primary and that the body affected the way the mind worked. This has since been discarded for the accepted idea that the mind has influence over the body. This awareness has even changed the way doctors converse amongst themselves in the operating room. It used to be that doctors had no idea that the patient while under the affects of anaesthesia were susceptible to suggestion. They found that if the doctors carried on a conversation describing a hopeless situation, the patient carried the thought in their subconscious and gave up all hope of getting well or recovering and eventually died. They also found that if they were positive in their conversations that the patients responded with improved success rates.
The determination is that the mind is a powerful tool that can change the conditions of the body.
In fact with the advent of string theory and quantum physics, science (Some scientists in their branch of science), when observing particles, experience an effect on those particles.
Physicists theorize that consciousness has an effect on particles which also led to the idea that the universe and consciousness are related and coexist as one.

In other words one does not exist without the other. Mind or in this case consciousness (that which exists beyond the conditioned personality but is responsible for personality) if extended into the thought of which is primary can be seen in the same observable condition as the mind and body of the individual, but on a larger scale.
Now this science, confirms the spiritual sciences of Eastern traditions in practice and observations that have said these things in documentation that is over 5000 years old.
Apparently, if this theory is correct, then evolution is coexisting with devolution. And if true, then there are much larger conscious influences within the universe than theoretical sciences that dictate that people are subject to genetic inheritance in the ability to expand the intellect and the senses.

QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *

Does the education system teach people how to help/cure others?
Cure?.. No. To treat symptoms according to subjective and objective determination, yes. Most doctors are at best mechanics.
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *

Ever been to a sick ward(not a visiting ward in an American/Western hospital) , having to operate on patients that are shortly going to die?
I've been a patient of hospitals in both the U.S. and in Asia. Of the two places, I thought the Asians were more serious and attentive. (must of got lucky, since it wasn't a government run hospital but instead a private one) Neither of the doctors in either place could tell me they understood my malady nor could they cure it. They could only guess at which treatment might assist my own healing abilities to help affect a change in subduing the illness. In fact both surgeons told me they can't or couldn't cure anything, and that they can only work from what they have been taught and learned thru experience. Apparently their experience was that they themselves cannot cure anything.

I could go on about my personal experiences or even open this discussion to others who have had similar experiences. I'm sure my experience is not isolated or unique.
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *
The hospitals in the outskirts of Kenya are a hard work place,
operating on starving children, with minimal equipment, hoping
that a child will walk in without AIDS or starvation symptoms,
having to reverse the home made vaginal extrusions of a women
with near endless problems,
In Russia with the addicts,self -mutilators ...............
At home removing a metastasis cluster , trying to say some renal
function.
I am glad that people receive training in medicine,
its all gaiety to dismiss the local/traveling physician, until
the sickness comes upon,

I have a certain amount of gratitude for those who genuinely care for the sick and can raise the hopes of those who seem to be lacking in faith and hope. I am also aware that doctors cannot cure diseases like aids, cancer and many other diseases. And I'm aware that in some Hospitals (in countries like the U.S.), there is a policy that if you can't pay for your treatment you don't always get it. The system differs in some countries. Some hospitals will shove a patient in a cab and dump them somewhere to get rid of them.

I would guess doctors can't cure this ill either.

QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *

Differences between us are many, vocation, places seen.....,
And the experience in states of conscious awareness and evolution.
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *

I would invite you to the far east of India , near the Chinese border,
working with the poor poor dying people,
I consider it rather important that I learned how to preform open heart surgery,
inject the proper amount of Chlordiazepoxide, before the Tracheotomy,
administer valproate instead of theophylline , to cut with percussion along the
hypoglossal and glossopharyngeal nerves allow room to work on the tenth.
An uneducated person would have a hard time performing trans radial throat
surgery, with sub par equipment.
My point exactly when it comes to the ability to see and experience reality. Having a degree does not guarantee wisdom or the awareness and understanding of the universe.

When you are focused on one subjective reality you tend to ignore all others. Kind of like going to a specialist at any clinic. If your ailment does not meet the experience level or the degree of the attending physician you will be notified to see someone who might, or that there is no alternative but to accept the condition as absolute and without a possible cure. dry.gif
Our educational system teaches us to specialize, compete and to focus on what success is as a useful and productive citizen. Unfortunately it does not teach us to love, to be compassionate or to open our eyes to the greater universe.
The successful are those that sell things like ideas to others where they can profit from those ideas, such as which car to drive, what kind of house to live in and which beer to drink, to fit in.

They don't teach you that your thoughts have an effect on your state of mind and your physical health, or the universe around you. Instead people are fed the idea that they are victim to unknowns, or that their genes determine their intellectual levels and personal experiences. Or that biology is responsible for the starving people on the planet.
We worship a science that creates instant gratification at the cost of polluted air and groundwater.

I'm not opposed to education or sciences as long as they are intelligent enough to open the world to peace and understanding that creates growth from the desire to know more. But to teach people that growth comes from suffering to make excuses for the conditions that exist which help create health issues, war, and planetary destruction is unconscious and irresponsible.

It would be nice if the educational system taught us how to cure these problems rather than exacerbate them by working around them and tolerating them.
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Flex
post May 16, 2011, 02:49 PM
Post #33


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I have to admit, school for the most part is more or less useless, safe for the fact that it is called an EDUCATION. The purpose of school is to educe i.e. to inspire. One is exposed to new ideas, which you can accept, or not. I honestly haven't learned shit at UCLA, but several of my professors have inspired me to learn things on my own.

I actually have been to India, and within the first 45 min, saw my first dead body. Being in India is what made me realize that biology rules. No matter how much technology is developed, people will populate the world to an extent that induces suffering. We don't realize it in the US because we are the top 10% of the worlds wealth, homeless people included. A man beging in Santa Monica for an hour can make more money than a man in India slaving all day in horid conditions. There is no fresh water shortage, there is over population. There is no democracy, there is a feudal system, just like there always has been.

You genetic code does dictate this. It does not say an Indian man is any less capable than I. It says we all look out for our own survival. Clearly you must have some sort of false perception of the concept. Education is the only way to manipulate biology. We understand the nature of suffering. The only way to stop it, is to reduce population, and develop more effective ways to utilize resources. Will people do this? No.
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Joesus
post May 16, 2011, 07:21 PM
Post #34


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QUOTE(Flex @ May 16, 2011, 10:49 PM) *

I have to admit, school for the most part is more or less useless, safe for the fact that it is called an EDUCATION. The purpose of school is to educe i.e. to inspire. One is exposed to new ideas, which you can accept, or not. I honestly haven't learned shit at UCLA, but several of my professors have inspired me to learn things on my own.

Looks like the shit you have learned (or didn't learn) still influences you in your ability to learn. e.g. Gene theory which predisposes you to what you can learn and understand. I'm surprised your professors didn't just say to you, "Don't bother, your genes determine your level of comprehension and thought patterns, so what you can learn is already dictated, and you will never know your capacity for success but instead are assured of your limitations..."
QUOTE(Flex @ May 16, 2011, 10:49 PM) *

You genetic code does dictate this.
Belief or theory, not fact.
QUOTE(Flex @ May 16, 2011, 10:49 PM) *

It does not say an Indian man is any less capable than I. It says we all look out for our own survival.

This is a choice not a dictate.
QUOTE(Flex @ May 16, 2011, 10:49 PM) *
Clearly you must have some sort of false perception of the concept.
Clearly I have a different experience and do not subscribe to the belief that the human condition is subject to biological differences.
QUOTE(Flex @ May 16, 2011, 10:49 PM) *
Education is the only way to manipulate biology.
But who sets the standard for what is reality and truth, to call information valuable to educate the human to the natural laws of the universe when they still seem to be a mystery to those who are deciding what is real?
QUOTE(Flex @ May 16, 2011, 10:49 PM) *
We understand the nature of suffering.
We (you) understand symptoms and have your own experience. IF we understand something, it is easy to construct as well as remove the cause.
QUOTE(Flex @ May 16, 2011, 10:49 PM) *
The only way to stop it, is to reduce population, and develop more effective ways to utilize resources. Will people do this? No.

This planet was once less populated, life was less complicated and still suffering existed. It is not the amount of people that creates suffering, but instead the continuation of process that follows beliefs in reality that remove sensibility from awareness that reduces life to suffering. This is not determined by genetic influence but rather the influence of those who convince others that they have no power within themselves to change.

This genetic ideal is the same message religion uses to control the masses and to herd them together under the authority of the message. The Catholic Church, for years propagated a similar message by telling the general public that they were suffering due to Gods will. The Church used to sell forgiveness and redemption exemplifying their direct relationship with God and their power to link God to the people.
Those who propagate the gene factor as the cause of hopelessness and or lack of will to change, are grasping for reasons for their lack of faith in their own abilities, and giving themselves a reason to give up any hope of changing what they believe are forces of nature above and beyond their control and understanding.

Who said the dark ages were over?... dry.gif

Stupid is as stupid does..my momma used to say...-Forest Gump-
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Joesus
post May 17, 2011, 06:57 AM
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Thought I'd throw this in for entertainment. I googled this to see what the popular notions are to gene influence and found this article which includes some video.
I was immediately reminded of a conversation I had with a Gynecologist while in a flight to a seminar I was teaching.
We had this discussion on medicine and beliefs, and he spoke of his frustration with the medical academies failure to imagine outside of the box. He said he liked to use the example of a young doctor who took a proposal for a new procedure to predict cancer in the cervix. He proposed that if you were to take a cell sample from the cervix that you could determine if there was cancer or cancer cells which could develop into a life threatening situation.
At the time, his colleagues laughed at the young doctor and told him they weren't interested in his theory.

The young doctors name was, Georgios Papanikolaou. The procedure became the most widely used indicator of cervical cancer and came to be known as the Papanikolaou, or Pap smear.

Anyway he listened with some interest in the things I told him about what I knew about the mind and the subconscious, and this was 15 years ago.

Today I found this and I find that it is pretty much what I learned over 40 years ago, and something that began to change the way I thought and experienced life.


http://advancedlifeskills.com/blog/genetic...-or-perception/
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orangesand
post May 17, 2011, 09:00 PM
Post #36


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"Not to worry the condition is not terminal nor determined by your genes. It is determined by your points of reference." ?
You said you had an illness/disorder that could not be cured, nor what the condition was be made known.
Well, 5% or less of people come into a family practice doctor's office without being diagnosed. Some illnesses are hard to spot, training helps, as does time, but I see in medicine over and over again the same/similar problems. If you had a kidney stone you would literally be begging me to remove it, as people who let a stone pass go through severe unpleasantness.

Everything you have, own, ever read, was made by technology, science, industry.
The funny thing is that I can induce religious experience/your abstracts, and then
diminish and eradicate the influence. Not the funnest procedure as to do it more
prudently I would have to get down to pia mater to start.

If you don't see/believe doctor's curing/healing people something missing.
An anecdotal example(like yours) is the lesser of cases, akin to
My grandfather smoked for 57 years and he was healthy.(This does rarely
happen, closer inspection revels otherwise, in the morgue.)

Though you made solid your belief, and hearing something different makes your
view grow, grow then mate.
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orangesand
post May 17, 2011, 09:03 PM
Post #37


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A better idea is akin to "what is your happy thought"
Mine is Scarlet Johansson. That should be easier..
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orangesand
post May 17, 2011, 10:56 PM
Post #38


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QUOTE(Joesus @ May 16, 2011, 10:47 AM) *

QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *

Who is older, who has more experience?(You assume)
From the statements you make yes. Your attitude and worship of the authority (system of education and its idols) as absolute, is typical of most teenagers and young adults I encounter in these subjects.

QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *

It is common for the younger of our people to believe the anti-statement,(worse for the elder ones to) As a child a mountain is seen, an adult sees a collection of particles, an old man sees a mountain..........(the learned man observes both states of the mountain and through study, realizes that the mountain is a random collection of particles, that look X way to people.)
Perhaps the long years have clouded my judgment.


Not to worry the condition is not terminal nor determined by your genes. It is determined by your points of reference.
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *

Been to China, India?
Yes as a matter of fact...
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *

There are some hard facts one observes upon visiting.

Observation is always subject to beliefs in reality. Those beliefs color our objectivity and we see what we believe is real.
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *

You mention Hitler, as is so often used (the extreme, an exception), first of what you said pertains to Heinrich
Himmler (good to actually study a topic, so one knows at least something about it),
It pertains to both. I do know a little about the subject.
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *

Did you go to school?

Many different ones and a couple in a different country other than my country of birth.
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *
If so do you see your degree as invalid and nullified?
Degrees are for the system. Knowledge does not mean wisdom. Much of what is taught is outdated and what was taught when I was in school has been replaced by the newer and updated versions.
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *

Things are more complicated in the adult world ,
Only if you were never taught to open your eyes and see.
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 05:34 AM) *

To say that the education system is vile,
Ever been sick? How do you get better?

Well interestingly enough science has found that the patient has a great deal to do with healing as well as the creation of the illness. Doctors can act as mechanics and repair what they can according to their skill and knowledge of the human body, but for the most part they can only treat the symptoms and most often the patient effects the cure thru the desire to get better.
This is often exemplified by the knowledge of the placebo effect, where the patient decides sugar is medicine and affects the way the body responds.
It used to be that doctors thought the body was primary and that the body affected the way the mind worked. This has since been discarded for the accepted idea that the mind has influence over the body. This awareness has even changed the way doctors converse amongst themselves in the operating room. It used to be that doctors had no idea that the patient while under the affects of anaesthesia were susceptible to suggestion. They found that if the doctors carried on a conversation describing a hopeless situation, the patient carried the thought in their subconscious and gave up all hope of getting well or recovering and eventually died. They also found that if they were positive in their conversations that the patients responded with improved success rates.
The determination is that the mind is a powerful tool that can change the conditions of the body.
In fact with the advent of string theory and quantum physics, science (Some scientists in their branch of science), when observing particles, experience an effect on those particles.
Physicists theorize that consciousness has an effect on particles which also led to the idea that the universe and consciousness are related and coexist as one.

In other words one does not exist without the other. Mind or in this case consciousness (that which exists beyond the conditioned personality but is responsible for personality) if extended into the thought of which is primary can be seen in the same observable condition as the mind and body of the individual, but on a larger scale.
Now this science, confirms the spiritual sciences of Eastern traditions in practice and observations that have said these things in documentation that is over 5000 years old.
Apparently, if this theory is correct, then evolution is coexisting with devolution. And if true, then there are much larger conscious influences within the universe than theoretical sciences that dictate that people are subject to genetic inheritance in the ability to expand the intellect and the senses.

QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *

Does the education system teach people how to help/cure others?
Cure?.. No. To treat symptoms according to subjective and objective determination, yes. Most doctors are at best mechanics.
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *

Ever been to a sick ward(not a visiting ward in an American/Western hospital) , having to operate on patients that are shortly going to die?
I've been a patient of hospitals in both the U.S. and in Asia. Of the two places, I thought the Asians were more serious and attentive. (must of got lucky, since it wasn't a government run hospital but instead a private one) Neither of the doctors in either place could tell me they understood my malady nor could they cure it. They could only guess at which treatment might assist my own healing abilities to help affect a change in subduing the illness. In fact both surgeons told me they can't or couldn't cure anything, and that they can only work from what they have been taught and learned thru experience. Apparently their experience was that they themselves cannot cure anything.

I could go on about my personal experiences or even open this discussion to others who have had similar experiences. I'm sure my experience is not isolated or unique.
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *
The hospitals in the outskirts of Kenya are a hard work place,
operating on starving children, with minimal equipment, hoping
that a child will walk in without AIDS or starvation symptoms,
having to reverse the home made vaginal extrusions of a women
with near endless problems,
In Russia with the addicts,self -mutilators ...............
At home removing a metastasis cluster , trying to say some renal
function.
I am glad that people receive training in medicine,
its all gaiety to dismiss the local/traveling physician, until
the sickness comes upon,

I have a certain amount of gratitude for those who genuinely care for the sick and can raise the hopes of those who seem to be lacking in faith and hope. I am also aware that doctors cannot cure diseases like aids, cancer and many other diseases. And I'm aware that in some Hospitals (in countries like the U.S.), there is a policy that if you can't pay for your treatment you don't always get it. The system differs in some countries. Some hospitals will shove a patient in a cab and dump them somewhere to get rid of them.

I would guess doctors can't cure this ill either.

QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *

Differences between us are many, vocation, places seen.....,
And the experience in states of conscious awareness and evolution.
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 16, 2011, 04:41 AM) *

I would invite you to the far east of India , near the Chinese border,
working with the poor poor dying people,
I consider it rather important that I learned how to preform open heart surgery,
inject the proper amount of Chlordiazepoxide, before the Tracheotomy,
administer valproate instead of theophylline , to cut with percussion along the
hypoglossal and glossopharyngeal nerves allow room to work on the tenth.
An uneducated person would have a hard time performing trans radial throat
surgery, with sub par equipment.
My point exactly when it comes to the ability to see and experience reality. Having a degree does not guarantee wisdom or the awareness and understanding of the universe.

When you are focused on one subjective reality you tend to ignore all others. Kind of like going to a specialist at any clinic. If your ailment does not meet the experience level or the degree of the attending physician you will be notified to see someone who might, or that there is no alternative but to accept the condition as absolute and without a possible cure. dry.gif
Our educational system teaches us to specialize, compete and to focus on what success is as a useful and productive citizen. Unfortunately it does not teach us to love, to be compassionate or to open our eyes to the greater universe.
The successful are those that sell things like ideas to others where they can profit from those ideas, such as which car to drive, what kind of house to live in and which beer to drink, to fit in.

They don't teach you that your thoughts have an effect on your state of mind and your physical health, or the universe around you. Instead people are fed the idea that they are victim to unknowns, or that their genes determine their intellectual levels and personal experiences. Or that biology is responsible for the starving people on the planet.
We worship a science that creates instant gratification at the cost of polluted air and groundwater.

I'm not opposed to education or sciences as long as they are intelligent enough to open the world to peace and understanding that creates growth from the desire to know more. But to teach people that growth comes from suffering to make excuses for the conditions that exist which help create health issues, war, and planetary destruction is unconscious and irresponsible.

It would be nice if the educational system taught us how to cure these problems rather than exacerbate them by working around them and tolerating them.


You want to believe so badly, working always so hard at repressing rationality
You are the true believer, in what? Well the context doesn't matter,
its your convection, using ambiguous phrases and words, to what end?
Bushar must be your hero.
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Joesus
post May 18, 2011, 04:37 AM
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Ambiguous?

Those who have the eyes to see and the ears to hear, rise above the belief in chaos.



Cause and effect my friend.
Nothing happens outside of your own doing.



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Flex
post May 18, 2011, 04:21 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ May 18, 2011, 05:37 AM) *

Ambiguous?

Those who have the eyes to see and the ears to hear, rise above the belief in chaos.



Cause and effect my friend.
Nothing happens outside of your own doing.


Fact or theory?
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Joesus
post May 18, 2011, 05:41 PM
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Fact.
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orangesand
post May 20, 2011, 11:33 AM
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What colour is a blue shirt?
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orangesand
post May 20, 2011, 11:36 AM
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"Cause and effect my friend.
Nothing happens outside of your own doing."

This is sad and very self serving for you.
You believe in extreme anthropomorphism.
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orangesand
post May 20, 2011, 11:43 AM
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You are but the dust of stars(literally).
Why is this so hard for you?
You talk about following authority,
yet quote the Christian Bible,
I have seen trauma patients who are very scared,
and seek abstractions to find solace, which is good
because they need something, you seem similar
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orangesand
post May 20, 2011, 11:50 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ May 18, 2011, 09:41 PM) *

Fact.


No facts lie in your path, only unquantifiable ether like abstractions.
A blind believer you are, caught it a fog, you cannot see your error.

You take a little of A(Christian) ,little of B(Hindu), little misguided non-science
form to a familiar web and hang on tight.
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orangesand
post May 20, 2011, 12:00 PM
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In reading your responses , nothing makes you happy,
you never addressed this, just talked about your religious beliefs
a sad old man, rotten, alone, seeking peace by war
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code buttons
post May 20, 2011, 02:15 PM
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QUOTE(orangesand @ May 20, 2011, 12:00 PM) *

In reading your responses , nothing makes you happy,
you never addressed this, just talked about your religious beliefs
a sad old man, rotten, alone, seeking peace by war

LMFAO!!!
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post May 20, 2011, 02:18 PM
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QUOTE(code buttons @ May 20, 2011, 02:15 PM) *

QUOTE(orangesand @ May 20, 2011, 12:00 PM) *

In reading your responses , nothing makes you happy,
you never addressed this, just talked about your religious beliefs
a sad old man, rotten, alone, seeking peace by war

LMFAO!!!


This makes me happy! A BrainMeta thread gone awry! LOL! Hey sand! welcome! ur a keeper! LOL!
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post May 20, 2011, 08:16 PM
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Agreed smile.gif Welcome to the forum amigo!
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post May 21, 2011, 07:31 AM
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QUOTE(orangesand @ May 20, 2011, 07:43 PM) *

You are but the dust of stars(literally).
The body is of the same matter, agreed. Consciousness however is much more subtle than star dust.
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 20, 2011, 07:43 PM) *
Why is this so hard for you?

What do you think is so hard for me?
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 20, 2011, 07:43 PM) *

You talk about following authority,
yet quote the Christian Bible,

I do speak of authority and I have quoted the bible.
Do you have a point?
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 20, 2011, 07:43 PM) *

I have seen trauma patients who are very scared,
and seek abstractions to find solace, which is good
because they need something, you seem similar

I guess that is as far as your mind is willing to go. C'est la vie
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 20, 2011, 07:43 PM) *

In reading your responses , nothing makes you happy,

Then you didn't comprehend what you read...not my fault..
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 20, 2011, 07:43 PM) *

you never addressed this

You ignored it.
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post May 23, 2011, 10:12 AM
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You said that young people blindly follow authority, the Christian Bible, with the Catholic Pope
(world's largest, richest religion), highest authority in the land, you quote from the bible,
the book of book on authority, repressing people, telling everyone to worship the Jewish/Christian God.


"Consciousness however is much more subtle than star dust." This is a non statement.


"What do you think is so hard for me?" To look at phenomena in an objectionable manor. Follow facts and
theories, retested hypothesis that are the best known answer to a certain question. From where does your ideas come?


"I guess that is as far as your mind is willing to go. C'est la vie"

Are you indirectly stating that you suffered physical or mental trauma?

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post May 23, 2011, 12:56 PM
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QUOTE(orangesand @ May 23, 2011, 06:12 PM) *

You said that young people blindly follow authority, the Christian Bible, with the Catholic Pope
(world's largest, richest religion), highest authority in the land, you quote from the bible,
the book of book on authority, repressing people, telling everyone to worship the Jewish/Christian God.

I quote from the bible as a reference to personal experience. What is true now was true 2000 years ago, and even 5000 years ago (I often quote Vedic scripture as well). You can't really wear out a great phrase or parable.

The bible is touted by Churchianity as an authoritative document to justify their power over certain beliefs and ideals in separation of man from God. It barely resembles the Teachings of Jesus and has been mistranslated and edited over the centuries to fit an agenda created by certain interests within organized religion. That fact doesn't take away from certain truths that are still self evident, as well as written within the pages of scripture.

I'm curious tho. Since you describe it as the highest authority in the land, and that it follows certain facts of history and hypothesis to tests and theories portrayed by such an authority to questions that relate to God and the Universe. Do you find it easy to accept what is propagated within this authority as your own beliefs?
Do you have your own experience of God? If not do you just assume what you haven't experienced doesn't exist or do you subscribe to another Authority?
I suppose being that you have free will you can choose to bend over and prostrate yourself to the authority of your own choice.

QUOTE(orangesand @ May 23, 2011, 06:12 PM) *

QUOTE
"Consciousness however is much more subtle than star dust."
This is a non statement.
Not if you know and understand consciousness as being much more than the firing of synapses in any brain, whether it be human or animal...

QUOTE(orangesand @ May 23, 2011, 06:12 PM) *

QUOTE
"What do you think is so hard for me?"
To look at phenomena in an objectionable manor. Follow facts and
theories, retested hypothesis that are the best known answer to a certain question. From where does your ideas come?

You mean why is it so hard to blindly look at phenomena thru someone else's theories or beliefs? Blindly being that it wouldn't be "my experience" and I have no vision of my own.

Best known theories and hypothesis that are wrong, are not Truth.
When the best know theory and hypothesis was that the world was flat, the world was still more or less round.

My ideas come from union with spirit. My experience and knowledge come from the exploration of that union, and the study of those who have preceded my understanding over the centuries. There are certain qualities of the human condition that remain the same regardless of what evolutionists think man is supposed to be.
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 23, 2011, 06:12 PM) *

QUOTE
"I guess that is as far as your mind is willing to go. C'est la vie"


Are you indirectly stating that you suffered physical or mental trauma?

No I am directly stating that you seem to be unable to accept anything outside of the box you live in, based on past conditioning in the way you want to see things and compare them.
There's a saying: "You can't teach an old dog, new tricks."
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post May 23, 2011, 01:26 PM
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I, a man of science.

" Blindly being that it wouldn't be "my experience" and I have no vision of my own."A

"No I am directly stating that you seem to be unable to accept anything outside of the box you live in, based on past conditioning in the way you want to see things and compare them."B

In A you seem to be saying that only what you directly observe, your personal experience is true?, in B
you are saying I see things in a confined manor. I accept new science driven notions that our bourn out of
rationally driven non biased peer reviewed labours. You do not appear to.

Well I learn/observe through study, peer reviewed science. Tangible things , logic, reason, empiricism, rationalism, reductionism.

I do not accept non evidence/non scientifically studied /logically invalid ideas, facts. Several times now you have mentioned about the flat earth model, which through scientific analysis was shown to be inaccurate. Science's theories are the best known to date description of a question, it changes because better method/study analysis shows a more valid answer. You seem to have a very hard time understanding this.
The earth is not actually round, it is a collection of randomly moving particles that appear to the human eye to be round, under the guidance of quantum science objects our manifest in a more true form.
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post May 23, 2011, 01:30 PM
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"There are certain qualities of the human condition that remain the same regardless of what evolutionists think man is supposed to be."
"What is true now was true 2000 years ago, and even 5000 years ago"

Those two statements are about human behaviour , human psychology. Fair play.

Do you not accept evolution? Science? Poor show.
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post May 23, 2011, 01:44 PM
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If what you mean about the Church is that they have controlled science, thought, free expression, used the worst ways of repressing these beliefs, evil things, burning books, burning people. The Bible, their justification for the Inquisitions, paining of scientists, Crusades, ............................
Yes science (in the Western World) lingered in the shadow of this cruel beast, the Catholic Church. The Rebirth, first in Italy, of philosophy, science, reason , logic, has led to the expansion of science.

Creationists still linger. The single richest, most in numbers, entity is the Catholic Church.
Men no longer fear death for writing a book about logic, or philosophy, or science (that was not the writ of the paegan saint Aristotle.

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post May 23, 2011, 06:55 PM
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QUOTE(orangesand @ May 23, 2011, 09:26 PM) *

I, a man of science.
Science is not responsible for your birth, but you let it define you. That'd be your choice
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 23, 2011, 09:26 PM) *

QUOTE
" Blindly being that it wouldn't be "my experience" and I have no vision of my own."A

"No I am directly stating that you seem to be unable to accept anything outside of the box you live in, based on past conditioning in the way you want to see things and compare them."B


In A you seem to be saying that only what you directly observe, your personal experience is true?, in B
you are saying I see things in a confined manor. I accept new science driven notions that our bourn out of
rationally driven non biased peer reviewed labours. You do not appear to.

"A" If I was to deny my personal experience then I would not be. If I could be led to a greater experience than the one I have I would have a new personal experience. Offer me something I can experience, not just theories or conjectures based on democratic process.
"B" In the confined manner of which I pointed out, you presumed to lump me in with those patients you described:
QUOTE

I have seen trauma patients who are very scared,
and seek abstractions to find solace, which is good
because they need something, you seem similar

Not every spiritual person is seeking solace from trauma, but rather have a unique desire to expand the intellect beyond theory and changing beliefs.
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 23, 2011, 09:26 PM) *

Well I learn/observe through study, peer reviewed science. Tangible things , logic, reason, empiricism, rationalism, reductionism.
Basically you accept the authority outside of yourself as the truth of your study, regardless of whether it becomes obsolete or changes on a regular basis. Most do. I did at one time, and now I don't. I accept the transient nature of science just like I do new models of automobiles that take the attention of those who are always seeing something new on the horizon while the old falls away or into idolization as a classic or collectible because it stirs fond memories. The science you describe is reflective of the natural tendency to want expansion and growth which is the nature of the universe. When it is contained by the ego, then it creates a study that looks outside of ones self to a force of nature that is beyond understanding but foreseen as one that can be controlled and manipulated at the level of personal identification and identity.

The, "IF I were God, I would...." foundation for the study of the universe.
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 23, 2011, 09:26 PM) *

I do not accept non evidence/non scientifically studied /logically invalid ideas, facts.
Neither do I. Our scientific interests lay in a different way of thinking and experience.

QUOTE(orangesand @ May 23, 2011, 09:26 PM) *
Several times now you have mentioned about the flat earth model, which through scientific analysis was shown to be inaccurate. Science's theories are the best known to date description of a question, it changes because better method/study analysis shows a more valid answer. You seem to have a very hard time understanding this.

No, I understand it, I just don't accept it as absolute. Nor do I put my faith in another to seek out my best interests since each individual has different desires and beliefs about life in general and their purpose as a human being.
QUOTE(orangesand @ May 23, 2011, 09:26 PM) *

The earth is not actually round, it is a collection of randomly moving particles that appear to the human eye to be round, under the guidance of quantum science objects our manifest in a more true form.

OK, then according to you, when the earth was seen and theorized to be flat, that did not change the fact that it was a collection of particles (You believe to be random) seen by the naked eye as round from another time and experience of space, and modeled as a sphere in the teachings of astronomy, but not quantum physics. So due to the fact that better methods of study and analysis renders every valid answer as temporary, then we need not hold our breath waiting for the next best definition, but just accept reality as temporarily defined.
Duly noted Mr. Science... dry.gif

QUOTE(orangesand @ May 23, 2011, 09:26 PM) *

QUOTE
"There are certain qualities of the human condition that remain the same regardless of what evolutionists think man is supposed to be."
"What is true now was true 2000 years ago, and even 5000 years ago"


Those two statements are about human behaviour , human psychology. Fair play.

No, the two statements are in regard to consciousness within human psychology and physiology on par with creation, regardless of the idea of evolution.

QUOTE(orangesand @ May 23, 2011, 09:26 PM) *

Do you not accept evolution? Science? Poor show.

Well science, (maybe not your science) theorizes that time and space are not linear but instead experienced by the human psyche as linear. Being that the science of physics sees time and space differently than the human condition (reference your statement that the earth is not round) then evolution is an experience necessary to put humanity into a condition that can be relative to the psychological need, to see and experience thru desire/hope, improvement, when life is seen as limited to the judgments and conditions of suffering.

QUOTE(orangesand @ May 23, 2011, 09:26 PM) *

If what you mean about the Church is that they have controlled science, thought, free expression, used the worst ways of repressing these beliefs, evil things, burning books, burning people. The Bible, their justification for the Inquisitions, paining of scientists, Crusades, ............................
Yes science (in the Western World) lingered in the shadow of this cruel beast, the Catholic Church. The Rebirth, first in Italy, of philosophy, science, reason , logic, has led to the expansion of science.

Creationists still linger. The single richest, most in numbers, entity is the Catholic Church.
Men no longer fear death for writing a book about logic, or philosophy, or science (that was not the writ of the paegan saint Aristotle.


Looking at it another way, (similar to the earth is not round way...) Mankind created the authority to stand as the representative of their belief in chaos. Not wishing to feel hopeless and without some kind of control it created an authority outside of itself to follow, until such a time when it could rise above the delusion of separation from the creative impulse of Universal Source. Today, and on a large scale, humanity is still willing to forgo what exists inside of itself for the belief in separation even after the rise of a few individuals who have exemplified the ability to tap into greater truths than those illusions of randomness and chaos as the nature of reality.
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post May 23, 2011, 08:18 PM
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Sonnet to Science, By Edgar Allan Poe

Science! true daughter of Old Time thou art!
Who alterest all things with thy peering eyes.
Why preyest thou thus upon the poet's heart,
Vulture, whose wings are dull realities?
How should he love thee? or how deem thee wise?
Who wouldst not leave him in his wandering
To seek for treasure in the jewelled skies,
Albeit he soared with an undaunted wing?
Hast thou not dragged Diana from her car?
And driven the Hamadryad from the wood
To seek a shelter in some happier star?
Hast thou not torn the Naiad from her flood,
The Elfin from the green grass, and from me
The summer dream beneath the tamarind tree?
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post May 23, 2011, 08:24 PM
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You have an interesting algorithm approach to your counterargument,
you break each idea into small more approachable pieces.
Good logic, albeit its a linear analysis not a holistic one , no reading
between the lines, the greater idea nullified, perhaps....

If I am Mr Science, who art Thou?
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post May 23, 2011, 08:40 PM
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Imagine if you please may,
think about what the physical geography of the Earth looks like,
has the Earth always looked that way?

Why do you protest change?

Your own thoughts and ideas have changed, why are your
current views better?

In reading what you wrote about Einstein , that was well played,
though it appears to me that you both suffice the same large error,
Einstein grasped laws of physics prehenceforth unknown,
though it trying to bring together his ideas, he famously inserted
The Cosmological Constant(some say because of his religion),
the guiding hand that governs natural laws, a "God "(he made it up, and later admitted it), he called it the greatest mistake of his career,
there was no reason or need for this cosmos protector, only in the emotional section of his brain
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post May 23, 2011, 08:50 PM
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The difference between us is thus,,

You believe in the Watch Maker, in Design.

I believe in "The Blind Watchmaker", things are "For no particular reason at all" Forest Gump + how physics just happens to work,
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