BrainMeta'   Connectomics'  

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> (Long-Lasting Effects)Irreversibility with MAOIs and Amphetamines(and possibly all stimulants?), to hopefully gain a solid understanding of mechanism and long-term effect
Phi
post Apr 03, 2011, 06:01 AM
Post #1


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1351
Joined: Jul 11, 2008
From: Las Vegas, NV
Member No.: 25755



Throughout the past few years I've noticed that many themes seem to cross paths when it comes to MAOIs and Amphetamines(in all forms); for example, I came across someone that stated both are used for anxiety and depression(possibly as last line treatments?)

Anyway, my personal observation and research tells me that amphetamines seem to have long lasting effects(mood-wise, and mindset). What specifically causes the long-term changes? I come across "brain damage" but I lean more toward some sort of permanent rebalancing of regulatory chemicals...maybe somebody can specifically clarify.

I'm assuming that certain balances could be bad for one and good for another...but then I'm reminded again of how MAOIs work.

I haven't come across much stating the negative outcome of MAOI treatment and I wonder why they are deemed as a last resort.

I mainly wonder if somebody could speak specifically on the irreversibility of some MAOIs and possibly draw some similarities between the mechanisms of both these and amphetamines.


I assume there is much relation between the two and maybe we can expound upon the implications of this

EDIT: I renamed the title as I should have been more clear about why I mentioned irreversibility
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Flex
post Apr 03, 2011, 09:25 AM
Post #2


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1954
Joined: Oct 17, 2006
From: Bay area CA
Member No.: 5877



MAOI treatment is usually a last resort because it is associated with a lot of potential hazards aka dumb asses mixing meds they are not supposed to be taking.

Don't know of anyone who takes amphetamines for anxiety, in fact it is quite the opposite. Amphetamines are known to trigger panic disorders, and psychosis--not good for an anxious individual.

The mechanism underlying amphetamines and MAOIs are very different, and not particularly related as far as I am aware?

As far as inhibition is concerned, try to find yourself a copy of Lehninger, Principles of Biochemistry or Lippincott's Illustraited Reviews has a nice little number simply called Biochemistry (chapter 5 deals with enzyme basics, pg. 53-68).

Or see what you can find here:
http://bcs.whfreeman.com/lehninger/pages/b...00|99000|&ns=13
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Phi
post Apr 03, 2011, 03:44 PM
Post #3


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1351
Joined: Jul 11, 2008
From: Las Vegas, NV
Member No.: 25755



yeah, I would assume that amphetamines would cause more anxiety because of noradrenergic activity...

and as inhibition goes, I only am highlighting the point that certain stimulants that I know off-hand do those things, and from some observations, it seems like many others act similarly(and I wouldn't be suprised if it were a fact that all stimulants give a degree of inhibition)

But, that brings me to a certain point: wouldn't the body naturally rebalance itself(unless posed with traumatic stress or some other negative, lingering after-effect((nervous system disorders?)) by overproducing calming agents(as long as the body isn't damaged and has the resources to do so)?

Perhaps this isn't the case((that the body re-corrects in that fashion(please let me know if so)). I then wonder why it is that I have observed long-lasting confidence in individuals who have abused amphetamines...((possibly having to develop more complex coping mechanisms that leave previous situations(that caused anxiety) to be handled easier?))

Then I'm reminded of deprenyl: a phenethylamine that not only belongs to a class of chemicals with many of the same properties as stiumlants, but also breaks down into amphetamine. Deprenyl can have MAO-A and B inhibition.

I'm not saying that prescribed MAOIs are the same as stimulants(although I recall a couple actually being classified as stimulants)...but it seems that stimulants could have the possibility of giving long-lasting, positive effects on people just as prescribed medication might.

My qualm is: I would like to know the major differences between MAOI's and whatever stimulants have related properties...and what is it about stimulants that makes them any bit worse than prescribed meds??(some reasons like abuse potential or stress on the heart seems obvious, but some of these negative traits also overlap into MAOIs)
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Flex
post Apr 03, 2011, 06:43 PM
Post #4


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1954
Joined: Oct 17, 2006
From: Bay area CA
Member No.: 5877



Stimulants can cause vasopressin depletion if I remember right. Sure you could verify if you read through some of this smile.gif This messes with hydration yada yada, which leads to dry mouth and bacterial growth, causing some legit dental problems. Psychosis should be considered a pretty gnarly side effect. MAOIs on the other hand, most of the concern is drug interaction.

http://books.google.com/books?id=a-Eg0vPb6...pressin&f=false

There is no difference between OTC stimulants and certain prescribed meds i.e. methamphetamine is methamphetamine regardless of whether it comes from a dealer or a doctor (how it is administered on the other hand is another story).

As far as I am aware, what most people consider stimulants do not act as MAOIs. MAOIs are in fact stimulating, because they can increase the duration between breakdown of monoamines. Sooo.... A traditional stimulant increases the amount of certain monoamines released, whereas MAOIs prevent the breakdown.

Prescribed meds as a rule of thumb are money making compounds. They rarely provide any long-lasting benefits. Said benefits are a consequence of how a study is performed for the most part. If you want long term benefits, go with nutraceuticals. By definition herbs and foods cannot be considered medicines legally. Chances are stimulants will not provide any health benefits, but rather will do more damage in the long run. Green tea used as a stimulant however, is perfectly healthy and safe, and does come with added health benefits. Other plants may offer health benefits as well, but it is likely not the stimulating compound that does so.

Example: caffeic acid vs. caffeine
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Phi
post Apr 04, 2011, 01:48 AM
Post #5


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1351
Joined: Jul 11, 2008
From: Las Vegas, NV
Member No.: 25755



That seems to explain most of what I was confused on. Btw, I had/have no intention of using MAOIs or amphetamines(or really any stimulants at all) in order to achieve anything that I would personally want, nor would I recommend it to others
smile.gif

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Flex
post Apr 04, 2011, 04:28 PM
Post #6


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1954
Joined: Oct 17, 2006
From: Bay area CA
Member No.: 5877



Nah you definitely should try kava sometime. The first couple times are awesome, then you get used to it. I think you would probably enjoy it. Sort of like being stoned/drunk. Definitely a lazy experience though.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Phi
post Apr 04, 2011, 10:52 PM
Post #7


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1351
Joined: Jul 11, 2008
From: Las Vegas, NV
Member No.: 25755



I've tried kava from both grocery stores and a good online source; I haven't really found much of what I was looking for(overall relaxed state more frequent than the normal state of mind) from taking it over a period past two days. I have heard that tolerance decreases with kava though...would I benefit from taking kava over longer time past 2 weeks?
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Flex
post Apr 05, 2011, 06:09 AM
Post #8


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1954
Joined: Oct 17, 2006
From: Bay area CA
Member No.: 5877



Probably not. I like having a source with a high kavalactone (sp?) concentation on rare occasion. More of a shock and awe type approach lol
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Phi
post Apr 05, 2011, 06:04 PM
Post #9


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1351
Joined: Jul 11, 2008
From: Las Vegas, NV
Member No.: 25755



I remember first taking it and I could eat gelcaps(roughly a quarter of a bottle) and see noticeable effects. By the third attempt(each attempt was made with a stronger product), kava seemed like a memory I would never experience again.

Fun to try for the first couple times though...
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Flex
post Apr 05, 2011, 06:41 PM
Post #10


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1954
Joined: Oct 17, 2006
From: Bay area CA
Member No.: 5877



Hmm... That is weird. Are you using freeze dried herb? 4 caps of that stuff your first try will knock you out for sure. You may have some sort of gene polymorphism that makes it less effective for you.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Phi
post Apr 05, 2011, 07:05 PM
Post #11


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1351
Joined: Jul 11, 2008
From: Las Vegas, NV
Member No.: 25755



I would assume its tolerance from other compounds that affect gaba levels
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
HeadShrunk
post May 16, 2013, 10:39 PM
Post #12


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1
Joined: May 16, 2013
Member No.: 35117



[quote name='Flex' date='Apr 03, 2011, 06:43 PM' post='113740']
Stimulants can cause vasopressin depletion if I remember right. Sure you could verify if you read through some of this :) This messes with hydration yada yada, which leads to dry mouth and bacterial growth, causing some legit dental problems. Psychosis should be considered a pretty gnarly side effect. MAOIs on the other hand, most of the concern is drug interaction.


Actually, drug interaction is the concern of every medicine - be it psychotropics, or otherwise. The main concern, and what separates MAOIs from every other anti-depressant, is that it interacts with certain foods that contain Tyramine. This in turn can cause elevated blood pressure, which can lead to a coronary and/or stroke. This is why it's used as a last resort when all else has failed. -D



User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 18th November 2017 - 12:25 AM


Home     |     About     |    Research     |    Forum     |    Feedback  


Copyright BrainMeta. All rights reserved.
Terms of Use  |  Last Modified Tue Jan 17 2006 12:39 am

Consciousness Expansion · Brain Mapping · Neural Circuits · Connectomics  ·  Neuroscience Forum  ·  Brain Maps Blog
 · Connectomics · Connectomics  ·  shawn mikula  ·  shawn mikula  ·  articles