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> Identify Mystery Powder, Ordered Pyritinol from Cerebral Health, got something different.
Hey Hey
post Oct 07, 2010, 08:54 PM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Oct 08, 2010, 02:21 AM) *
QUOTE(GodConsciousness @ Oct 07, 2010, 08:39 AM) *
I received another confirmation from manufacturing that what you received was pure pyritinol, but I am still holding off on putting pyritinol back up on the CH website until further analysis is complete.
I can run an IR and check melting point and such and upload the spectrum on here if you like. All I need is a few mg and we can figure out exactly what we have smile.gif
QUOTE(chrono @ Oct 08, 2010, 02:39 AM) *
QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Oct 07, 2010, 08:11 PM) *
What about your credentials? (This is the internet after all! wacko.gif )
I'm a little unclear on what 'credentials' are necessary to tell if pyritinol dissolves in water or oil, or to suggest that different gross solubilities call its identity into question. I assume GC would say if he thought kagos was in error regarding these simple assertions.
Do you know kagos personally? Credentials relate to things such as purity of water used, temperature/pressure at which solubility is determined, qualification/experience of experimenter, authentication of product, etc. We don't know who most people here are. We could all be loonies trying to discredit GC and his company. GC needs a sample of the product and packaging codes etc from kagos so that he can determine if it is authentic. Then he needs to look at the supply chain to verify that the product is what it should be. Also GC should be looking at P stocks at his company storage facility to determine that they are actually P. THis whole set of information - kagos's product/package, GC's supply chain info, GC's present stocks of P - should help to work out what has gone wrong if anything.

GC, have there been any other customer comments about the product?
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chrono
post Oct 07, 2010, 09:47 PM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Oct 08, 2010, 12:54 AM) *
Do you know kagos personally? Credentials relate to things such as purity of water used, temperature/pressure at which solubility is determined, qualification/experience of experimenter, authentication of product, etc. We don't know who most people here are. We could all be loonies trying to discredit GC and his company. GC needs a sample of the product and packaging codes etc from kagos so that he can determine if it is authentic. Then he needs to look at the supply chain to verify that the product is what it should be. Also GC should be looking at P stocks at his company storage facility to determine that they are actually P. THis whole set of information - kagos's product/package, GC's supply chain info, GC's present stocks of P - should help to work out what has gone wrong if anything.

Kagos told us how he conducted the experiment, and that he returned the product. Pointing out that we really don't know anything about him doesn't serve any useful purpose at this point, and places him in the position of having to somehow prove that he conducted a simple experiment perfectly, and personally has no reason to want to discredit a company—both impossible proofs, honestly, even if we did know him personally.

Rather, my point was that GC is more than capable of determining what the cause of this may be, without us speculating about ulterior motives without any current reason to do so, and placing another user in a defensive position just to point out a basic property of internet communication.

Pyritinol is a nootropic that many people find very neutral-feeling, so a (putative) problem like this might not be apparent unless someone thought to check the taste or solubility against other reports.

I'd be curious to see some actual solubility data for this compound. I'll look around if I can get to a library this weekend.
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GodConsciousness
post Oct 07, 2010, 10:40 PM
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While I don't know kagos personally, I don't see his comments as attempts to discredit CH (as was discussed earlier). The physical properties of the recent batch of pyritinol are in fact different from earlier batches. This is the first time that I can recall where the physical properties were so different from one batch to another. It does not necessarily mean that the batch is bad, but I want to take a closer look at this to make 100% sure there are no potential problems here. I would prefer to exercise on the side of caution and have pulled the batch from the market until further tests are conducted on this particular form. Manufacturing may have indeed improved to make a more bioavailable form of pyritinol and the supply chain is rock solid, but it's worth investigating further.
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Flex
post Oct 11, 2010, 01:30 PM
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log S0 = 0.52 1.00R2+0.77πH+2.17∑αH 4.24∑βH3.36∑αH ∑βH3.99Vx

In case anyone wants to calculate the solubility smile.gif

R2 is excess molar refraction, πH is dipolarity/polarizability, αH and βH are hydrogen-bond acidity and basicity, respectively, and finally Vx is the McGowan's molecular volume.

Useful links:
http://www.chemspider.com/RecordView.aspx?...05-ab0925064c59
http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary/su...4251&loc=ec_rcs
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kagaos
post Oct 12, 2010, 06:13 PM
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QUOTE(GodConsciousness @ Oct 07, 2010, 10:40 PM) *

While I don't know kagos personally, I don't see his comments as attempts to discredit CH (as was discussed earlier). The physical properties of the recent batch of pyritinol are in fact different from earlier batches. This is the first time that I can recall where the physical properties were so different from one batch to another. It does not necessarily mean that the batch is bad, but I want to take a closer look at this to make 100% sure there are no potential problems here. I would prefer to exercise on the side of caution and have pulled the batch from the market until further tests are conducted on this particular form. Manufacturing may have indeed improved to make a more bioavailable form of pyritinol and the supply chain is rock solid, but it's worth investigating further.


Any updates to offer?
QUOTE(Flex @ Oct 11, 2010, 01:30 PM) *

log S0 = 0.52 1.00R2+0.77πH+2.17∑αH 4.24∑βH3.36∑αH ∑βH3.99Vx

In case anyone wants to calculate the solubility smile.gif

R2 is excess molar refraction, πH is dipolarity/polarizability, αH and βH are hydrogen-bond acidity and basicity, respectively, and finally Vx is the McGowan's molecular volume.

Useful links:
http://www.chemspider.com/RecordView.aspx?...05-ab0925064c59
http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary/su...4251&loc=ec_rcs

Woah man...Care to put some of that into layman's terms? Or calculate that for us?
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GodConsciousness
post Oct 12, 2010, 11:33 PM
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Got the COA and everything seems to be looking fine with the pyritinol batch in question, but I am still taking a closer look.
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kagaos
post Oct 14, 2010, 09:36 AM
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QUOTE(GodConsciousness @ Oct 12, 2010, 11:33 PM) *

Got the COA and everything seems to be looking fine with the pyritinol batch in question, but I am still taking a closer look.

Just out of curiosity, could we see a copy of the COA?
Thanks for the update!
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Flex
post Oct 14, 2010, 10:36 AM
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I decided to run IRs on some of the stuff I had lying around the house.

The only CH product I got to test was Memeron (Galantamine and Alpha GPC) which as far as I can tell, contained all the functional groups it should.

I then tested 3 products from Cognitive Nutrition, and found that 2 of the 3 spectra seemed reasonable; however, my PEA contained no amine peak, which to me seems very odd. Were it a tertiary amine, of course there would be no NH stretching, but this is not the case. This is supposed to be a primary amine, and should have a very distinct peak.

I will try to scan all of the spectra later.
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Kleuze
post Feb 22, 2012, 06:55 AM
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Well that's strange.

I have the same situation: I ordered Pyritinol (from Cerebral Health) and what I got was a highly hydrophobic, off-white powder (with a somewhat weak, undescribeable taste). I've literally searched my ass off to find information about this, but all I could find was this topic and one from longecity (that one also refers to this topic, by the way), and the promised verdict from GodConsciousness is still missing.

There's no information at all, and I've really tried my best, describing Pyritinol or any other derivation of this or vitamin B6 that matches my observations. I mailed Cerebral Health about this, and what I got back was this (it's the whole e-mail, just one sentence):

"Its a rice based pyritinol and does have different characteristics. It should work great though."

So my search went on for "rice based pyritinol", but not one single hit on the entire internet. I replied to them, kindly asking for information on this particular rice-based Pyritinol so I could see what this is all about. I added that if they could not provide me the information, I would preferrably return it. Here's what I got:

"You are more than welcome to return it for a full refund, but our pyritinol is quite good. I understand your reservations and I have looked into the matter myself before for similar reasons."

Another claim that it's good stuff, but absolutely nothing to back it up. He has looked into it himself, but found nothing? I like Cerebral Health as a good supplier of nootropics (their -racetams and cholines are really great), but this particular issue is something I find very, very weak.

So ehm.. anyone has any update on this whatsoever?
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Flex
post Feb 22, 2012, 07:48 AM
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If you want to try to characterize it, I could take a melting point, and IR (GC too if I can find time). It wont be much use thought if there are binders etc.

http://www.lookchem.com/Pyritinol/
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Kleuze
post Feb 22, 2012, 07:52 AM
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You mean you want to try the batch that I received? I could send a portion of it to you, that's no problem..
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Flex
post Feb 22, 2012, 10:44 AM
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I am down to try what I can if you like. I would only need 100mg or so of the batch. Have you tested the solubility in nonpolar solvents?

Is the compound pure or would I have to re-crystalize it myself? BTW for all of you that are into testing your own compounds, you may want to become familiar with the process. I will do a write up on it if I get some time.

BTW incase you are curious, the method for identification I would use would be analogous to that for piracetam.

Abstract for the identification of piracetam: http://en.cnki.com.cn/Article_en/CJFDTOTAL-YYGZ200617029.htm
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Kleuze
post Feb 22, 2012, 01:57 PM
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Well it would be great if you could and want to do it. I'm very curious about the results.

Unfortunately, I have only basic knowledge about (bio)chemistry, neither do I have the equipment to do these kind of tests (note to self: probably a good idea to work on that when experimenting with nootropics)

Pretty much the only thing I could test it in was the Dutch household article "Wasbenzine" (I'm not sure whether that's non-polar or polar-aprotic, I only know it's a mix of different sized alkanes). It got rather turbid when I mixed this "Pyritinol" in it, so it didn't seem very soluble. Maybe I've saturated it too much (eventhough I've put only about 200mg in a full glass of it), but by short-term observation (lumps persistently falling to the bottom, refusing to "solve" without crushing them) I'd say it's not soluble in that either, but I could be wrong. Chemistry class was a long time ago smile.gif

I get the same observations when I mix it with oil (don't know if that's useful information).

As for the purity, it says 99% on the label, but then again, it also says Pyritinol on the label, which it's unlikely that it is. I have not made any modifications to it whatsoever (I wouldn't even know how to crystallize it, I only know how to do that to hydrophilic substances)

About sending you some of it, I've never actually sent substrances through mail, especially not overseas. You think it's possible to send you a portion from The Netherlands to Canada? If so, is there anything special that comes to it?

Thanks alot by the way for all your help and information on the subject. I only just noticed you were already involved in this thread two years ago, haha

EDIT: About the claim that it's rice-based, do you happen to know anything about that? Does it sound plausible to you whatsoever? I couldn't find any search results with rice-based and pyritinol together, but maybe I'm just searching the wrong way, you never know..
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Flex
post Feb 22, 2012, 03:04 PM
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Hmm well that sounds quite interesting. Neither water nor fat soluble smile.gif Turn to the next best option--alcohol! If that doesn't do the trick, it may just be that the rate of dissolution is slow.

No idea what the deal with customs would be. Perhaps if you know the batch number Cerebral Health could send me a sample?
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Kleuze
post Feb 23, 2012, 06:41 AM
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I don't know, I simply ordered "Bulk Pyritinol (100g)"

I could try sending it anyway, can you PM me the details?
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Flex
post Feb 23, 2012, 07:23 AM
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Check your inbox smile.gif
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Flex
post Feb 23, 2012, 09:18 AM
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Oh and one more thing, here is some useful solubility data: http://www.springerlink.com/content/n51l437025u0l827/

As you can see, from near freezing to near boiling, you have a 10 fold increase in solubility. In the case of pyritinol, you have two molecules conjoined, requiring an even greater solvent cage and thus more time to dissolve and re-crystalize.
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LeeCrostM.D.
post Jul 02, 2012, 05:30 AM
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QUOTE(Kleuze @ Feb 22, 2012, 06:55 AM) *

Well that's strange.

I have the same situation: I ordered Pyritinol (from Cerebral Health) and what I got was a highly hydrophobic, off-white powder (with a somewhat weak, undescribeable taste). I've literally searched my ass off to find information about this, but all I could find was this topic and one from longecity (that one also refers to this topic, by the way), and the promised verdict from GodConsciousness is still missing.

There's no information at all, and I've really tried my best, describing Pyritinol or any other derivation of this or vitamin B6 that matches my observations. I mailed Cerebral Health about this, and what I got back was this (it's the whole e-mail, just one sentence):

"Its a rice based pyritinol and does have different characteristics. It should work great though."

So my search went on for "rice based pyritinol", but not one single hit on the entire internet. I replied to them, kindly asking for information on this particular rice-based Pyritinol so I could see what this is all about. I added that if they could not provide me the information, I would preferrably return it. Here's what I got:

"You are more than welcome to return it for a full refund, but our pyritinol is quite good. I understand your reservations and I have looked into the matter myself before for similar reasons."

Another claim that it's good stuff, but absolutely nothing to back it up. He has looked into it himself, but found nothing? I like Cerebral Health as a good supplier of nootropics (their -racetams and cholines are really great), but this particular issue is something I find very, very weak.

So ehm.. anyone has any update on this whatsoever?


I would certainly have it tested. Pyritinol is very water soluble and has a strong taste and scent.
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