Identify Mystery Powder, Ordered Pyritinol from Cerebral Health, got something different. Options

[kagaos]

Alright, well I ordered bulk Pyritinol from CH and got it in today.
I was excited to try it out so I measured out 400mg and downed it.

Now, I found something stating that pyritinol is supposed to taste nasty and be water soluble.
Surprisingly, the bulk powder I got fit neither of these criteria. It was tasteless, and highly hydrophobic.

My first thought was, OH SHIT what if it's huperzine a!? I called them and they assured me it wouldn't be. But they couldn't confirm for me that it was pyritinol. All he could say was that "it is what it is...we just got this new shipment in...it is what it is..."

Long story short I just want to know if cerebral health sells anything that is a hydrophobic, tasteless, off-white powder that could harm me in the dosage of 400mg?

[kagaos]

Well I didn't die, so I guess what ever it was it was safe at 400mg.

Has anyone else here gotten a wrong (or fake) product from cerebral health? Because I believe that is what my situation is and I'm confused because I was under the impression that they were reputable.

[Phi]

the ch gods answer those who are patient

[kagaos]

Nothing against CH, as I have little experience with them but something seems a little off here.
They assured me that what they have in stock is, indeed, pyritinol. They said that what they have in stock is in congruence with how I described my "pyritinol." That is, a hydrophobic, tasteless, off-white powder.

If that is the case I strongly discourage potential buyers of pyritinol from buying from CH due to the incongruence of their stock with the popular consensus of what pyritinol should be. That is, a nasty tasting, water soluble powder.

If it is the case that I was accidentally sent an order of some other chemical, I sincerely apologize to CH for any trouble I may have caused. You've been very gracious in offering me a full refund and I appreciate it but I think it's important to get this issue resolved.

I am currently waiting for a reply from CH, and I will update as necessary.

Again, no hard feelings CH.

[Phi]

disclaimer - I'm a phil that thinks ch will respond....sometime this year

[GodConsciousness]

No hard feelings whatsoever. We pride ourselves on having the highest quality and purest products on the market. I personally take this very seriously. If at any time there is any doubt on product purity, we encourage customers to return the product for a full refund (unopened or not).

[kagaos]

Haha sorry Phi...I got confused. Thanks for clearing that up

Anyways, here's an update:
There was a claim that CH's manufacturer of pyritinol has a highly refined product that alters the physical characteristics of the compound.

This would, via the laws of chemistry, make it a different compound altogether.
Here's a snippet from my email that clarifies:
"A compound is typically considered hydrophobic if it is unwilling to make hydrogen bonds (particularly with water, of course). Pyritinol is hydrophilic because it can, and does make hydrogen bonds through the polar -OH bonds. The only way to make it hydrophobic would be to alter the chemical structure by attaching an ester or something along those lines. Doing so, however, implies (as I have mentioned) a completely different chemical. Is this not proof enough? You simply cannot abide by the laws of chemistry and have a hydrophobic pyritinol molecule...it is simply impossible."

Anyone care to support or disprove my analysis? I would like nothing more than to be flat out wrong about this because I don't want to have to send it back and wait for another shipment...so please, someone with a firm chemistry background, please disprove me.

GC, I am in no way trying to discredit your company or what you guys do, as I've heard only good things about you guys. However, out of concern for myself and fellow customers, I highly suggest you reconsider your relationship with your current pyritinol manufacturer.

[GodConsciousness]

Haha sorry Phi...I got confused. Thanks for clearing that up

Anyways, here's an update:
There was a claim that CH's manufacturer of pyritinol has a highly refined product that alters the physical characteristics of the compound.

This would, via the laws of chemistry, make it a different compound altogether.
Here's a snippet from my email that clarifies:
"A compound is typically considered hydrophobic if it is unwilling to make hydrogen bonds (particularly with water, of course). Pyritinol is hydrophilic because it can, and does make hydrogen bonds through the polar -OH bonds. The only way to make it hydrophobic would be to alter the chemical structure by attaching an ester or something along those lines. Doing so, however, implies (as I have mentioned) a completely different chemical. Is this not proof enough? You simply cannot abide by the laws of chemistry and have a hydrophobic pyritinol molecule...it is simply impossible."

Anyone care to support or disprove my analysis? I would like nothing more than to be flat out wrong about this because I don't want to have to send it back and wait for another shipment...so please, someone with a firm chemistry background, please disprove me.

GC, I am in no way trying to discredit your company or what you guys do, as I've heard only good things about you guys. However, out of concern for myself and fellow customers, I highly suggest you reconsider your relationship with your current pyritinol manufacturer.

I greatly appreciate the feedback and in no way take your thoughts as attempts to discredit CH. It is absolutely imperative that feedback from customers is maintained to quickly address any potential problems. I have removed pyritinol from the CH website until this issue is sufficiently resolved to my satisfaction.

[kagaos]

I greatly appreciate the feedback and in no way take your thoughts as attempts to discredit CH. It is absolutely imperative that feedback from customers is maintained to quickly address any potential problems. I have removed pyritinol from the CH website until this issue is sufficiently resolved to my satisfaction.

Thank you for being so responsive with this issue. It's a testament to your guy's commitment to excellence!

Please inform me when the issue is resolved.
Thanks,
Kenny

[Hey Hey]

If at any time there is any doubt on product purity, we encourage customers to return the product for a full refund (unopened or not).

Or a relative of the deceased?

[Phi]

ouch

[chrono]

Hope it works out all right. A few thoughts:

Are you sure it's insoluble in water? Not sure how quickly pyritinol should dissolve, but as an example, the caffeine powder I have refuses to do so without vigorous agitation for several minutes.

It might simply be a different salt; wikipedia lists pyritinol as a freebase (CAS 1098-97-1), but several studies and suppliers list it as a dihydrochloride (CAS 10049-83-9). A more severe mix-up could mean it's another B6 variant.

[Flex]

Just looking at the structure, I would estimate the solubility in water to be between 125 and 200 mg/L at 25C. That said, the quantity you are using should not be missable in water, unless you are downing a gallon at a time. Try taking the quantity you normally would, and mixing it with water 1/4 at a time to room temperature water.

[Hey Hey]

Just looking at the structure, I would estimate the solubility in water to be between 125 and 200 mg/L at 25C.

That doesn't look very soluble to me. How did you come about that estimate? Compare with an organic like sugar. Anyway, how about taking in black coffee, nice and hot? Even decaf, LOL!

[Flex]

There are 6 hydrogen bond receptors, and 4 H bond donors. 113 A^2 polar surface area. Polarizability 39.16 10-24cm3.

[Hey Hey]

There are 6 hydrogen bond receptors, and 4 H bond donors. 113 A^2 polar surface area. Polarizability 39.16 10-24cm3.

The only thing that does for me is tell me about possible intermolecular and intramolecular interactions and how they might influence the solubility at a given temp and pressure, not what the solubility will be. I appreciate that there are predictors/algorithms to plug molecular data into, but I left those at MSc level, so you'll have to excuse my ignorance. In the end, there's nothing better than doing the experiment in the lab and I'm sure that GC will have the results of that and can provide an expected solubility.

BTW kagaos, we are talking about dissolving in pure water here and not water tainted with some sweetener or other to help the Pyritinol go down? And you need to give us some info on the relative quantities of powder and water you were using.

The upshot is, though indicated as water soluble, don't expect Pyritinol to dissolve like sugar.

[kagaos]

There are 6 hydrogen bond receptors, and 4 H bond donors. 113 A^2 polar surface area. Polarizability 39.16 10-24cm3.

The only thing that does for me is tell me about possible intermolecular and intramolecular interactions and how they might influence the solubility at a given temp and pressure, not what the solubility will be. I appreciate that there are predictors/algorithms to plug molecular data into, but I left those at MSc level, so you'll have to excuse my ignorance. In the end, there's nothing better than doing the experiment in the lab and I'm sure that GC will have the results of that and can provide an expected solubility.

BTW kagaos, we are talking about dissolving in pure water here and not water tainted with some sweetener or other to help the Pyritinol go down? And you need to give us some info on the relative quantities of powder and water you were using.

The upshot is, though indicated as water soluble, don't expect Pyritinol to dissolve like sugar.

Yeah I've tried dissolving it in different amounts (10mg-1000mg) in different amounts of water (pure, distilled) at different temperatures and all I find is an extremely hydrophobic compound. It practically climbs up the sides of the glass trying to get away from the water. Only after severe agitation does the water become slightly cloudy with precipitate. Even then, at least 99% of the compound is attached to the side of the glass or floating in clumps. I would compare it's solubility with that of aniracetam.
And just curious. Why would I need a sweetener for something that I can't taste anyways?

@Flex
It is still, however, water soluble. No? Then it should have some taste. Right? This has zero taste.

Now, instead of trying to see how water-soluble this compound is, I decided to see how fat soluble it was by mixing 200mg with 1 TBsp olive oil. Can you guess what happened? Yup, it completely dissolved into solution.

So the question is no longer, "Is this compound fat soluble?" It's, "Is there a fat-soluble variant of pyritinol and is it still as effective as the common water soluble variant?"

[Flex]

My only guess would be some kind of acid catalyzed dehydration to convert the OH into alkenes. This should in turn alter the taste considerable if it is true; however, the formation of such a product looks highly unfavorable to me, doesn't seem very likely. Do you have access to any kind of spectrometer?

[kagaos]

My only guess would be some kind of acid catalyzed dehydration to convert the OH into alkenes. This should in turn alter the taste considerable if it is true; however, the formation of such a product looks highly unfavorable to me, doesn't seem very likely. Do you have access to any kind of spectrometer?

No, unfortunately I don't. Well my university has one but I doubt they're going to let me use it for something like this.

Along the lines of taste, it's my understanding that the sulfur bridge is responsible for the nasty and distinct taste. In any case, a highly lipophilic substance shouldn't register on the taste buds.

I don't suppose there are any "at home" tests I could perform to get a better handle on what this substance is?

[Flex]

Well this is basically what you would really have to do: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20355200

But for at home purposes:
http://www.123helpme.com/view.asp?id=149367

[chrono]

So the question is no longer, "Is this compound fat soluble?" It's, "Is there a fat-soluble variant of pyritinol and is it still as effective as the common water soluble variant?"

Before you go out and buy yourself an NMR, I feel I should point out that if you have anything except pyritinol HCl or perhaps the freebase, there will be essentially no history of human use; pk, efficacy, or toxicity. The risk wouldn't seem justified to me.

[kagaos]

Well this is basically what you would really have to do: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20355200

But for at home purposes:
http://www.123helpme.com/view.asp?id=149367

Hmm...this appears to be more work than it's worth. Especially considering the below:

So the question is no longer, "Is this compound fat soluble?" It's, "Is there a fat-soluble variant of pyritinol and is it still as effective as the common water soluble variant?"

Before you go out and buy yourself an NMR, I feel I should point out that if you have anything except pyritinol HCl or perhaps the freebase, there will be essentially no history of human use; pk, efficacy, or toxicity. The risk wouldn't seem justified to me.

Right-O. This is a very good point...I'm not sure why I am so obsessed with finding out what this compound is.

[Flex]

My bad. I thought those were benzene rings. It should be pretty damn water soluble... The only thing I can think of is that you might have very alkaline water. Since it is derived from a vitamin, there is a chance that it will be very sensitive to pH and such. My bet based on the olive oil is that you have something completely different.

I wouldn't take it.

[Hey Hey]

This is how I think P ought be taken:

http://www.biogenesis-antiaging.com/p67/Py...oduct_info.html

I'm not recommending this particular supplier, it's just an example of how a professional approach to nootropic formulation might be taken so that a predetermined and reliable dosage can be taken in a formulation that includes fillers etc to enable easy handling/storage and swallowing. And tablets can be constructed to 'dilute' the active ingredient to reduce its taste, or a sugar coating can be used to mask it. P is known to be bitter tasting though some users say it has a nasty taste that is hard to get rid of.

Maybe GC can comment on the form of P he can supply and answer some of the chemical/physical property questions above. Maybe kagos should return the product so that GC can have it analysed. GC is usually very helpful in this area and problems do happen, even in the most professionally run companies. That's life. Send it back ...

[kagaos]

This is how I think P ought be taken:

http://www.biogenesis-antiaging.com/p67/Py...oduct_info.html

I'm not recommending this particular supplier, it's just an example of how a professional approach to nootropic formulation might be taken so that a predetermined and reliable dosage can be taken in a formulation that includes fillers etc to enable easy handling/storage and swallowing. And tablets can be constructed to 'dilute' the active ingredient to reduce its taste, or a sugar coating can be used to mask it. P is known to be bitter tasting though some users say it has a nasty taste that is hard to get rid of.

Maybe GC can comment on the form of P he can supply and answer some of the chemical/physical property questions above. Maybe kagos should return the product so that GC can have it analysed. GC is usually very helpful in this area and problems do happen, even in the most professionally run companies. That's life. Send it back ...

I've already purchased from another supplier.
I would also like to know the form of pyritinol used.
But, yes, I am sending it back it went out today. I just hope GC can get back to us about what exactly this stuff is...not that it is of huge concern for me just that I am interested

P.S. Thanks everyone for your helpful replies!

[GodConsciousness]

I received another confirmation from manufacturing that what you received was pure pyritinol, but I am still holding off on putting pyritinol back up on the CH website until further analysis is complete.

[kagaos]

I received another confirmation from manufacturing that what you received was pure pyritinol, but I am still holding off on putting pyritinol back up on the CH website until further analysis is complete.

Are you taking their word, or do they have some evidence to back this up?
I appreciate that you're going to hold off until you can further analyze the product. But personally wouldn't buy it again until I'm given some explanation for why your particular supplier's Pyritinol has the physical properties that it does (I assume that's where "further analysis" comes into play).
Thanks for the update!

[Hey Hey]

I received another confirmation from manufacturing that what you received was pure pyritinol, but I am still holding off on putting pyritinol back up on the CH website until further analysis is complete.

Are you taking their word, or do they have some evidence to back this up?
I appreciate that you're going to hold off until you can further analyze the product. But personally wouldn't buy it again until I'm given some explanation for why your particular supplier's Pyritinol has the physical properties that it does (I assume that's where "further analysis" comes into play).
Thanks for the update!

What about your credentials? (This is the internet after all! )

[Flex]

I received another confirmation from manufacturing that what you received was pure pyritinol, but I am still holding off on putting pyritinol back up on the CH website until further analysis is complete.

I can run an IR and check melting point and such and upload the spectrum on here if you like. All I need is a few mg and we can figure out exactly what we have

[chrono]

What about your credentials? (This is the internet after all! )

I'm a little unclear on what 'credentials' are necessary to tell if pyritinol dissolves in water or oil, or to suggest that different gross solubilities call its identity into question. I assume GC would say if he thought kagos was in error regarding these simple assertions.