capitalism trumping democracy Options

[GodConsciousness]

Is it wishful thinking to suppose we will ever have governments that are not for sale? What kind of democracy can we ever truly have when mired in special interest levied capitalism?

[Flex]

The democracy of the dollar. Don't support companies you don't like. Think of it as a democratic meritocracy.

[Rick]

Don't buy eggs from companies that have sloppy health safety, even though there are a dozen front companies selling eggs from the same producer? That won't work. We need good regulation. We shouldn't have to kill people to put a company out of business. Better to help companies do it right in the first place.

[GodConsciousness]

Regulations and taxes need to be tempered with a dose of realism. It's often a fine balance that must be struck between companies and the governments that regulate them.

[Rick]

Right now we're in the "not enough regulation" era in the aftermath of the destruction of government of the Bush era. He put company shills in top regulatory positions just so that they could close their eyes. We're paying the price now. Those bad eggs wouldn't have gotten out 20 years ago.

[Flex]

Don't buy eggs from companies that have sloppy health safety, even though there are a dozen front companies selling eggs from the same producer? That won't work. We need good regulation. We shouldn't have to kill people to put a company out of business. Better to help companies do it right in the first place.

That is why you don't support an immoral industry. If the companies took care in their business (and their animals) there would be no problems to begin with. That is precisely why if I do buy eggs (rarely) I do so from local farmers. No need to support a massive immoral company--especially here in California.

[Rick]

I un-support immoral industries by supporting appropriate regulation. We need to help them to become better. Not everyone has your discipline; most will go for the cheap eggs, and immoral companies will continue to prosper without regulation.

[Flex]

I guess it is more a matter of having an uneducated public then, in which case a democracy will not help anyhow Hail Caesar!

[Rick]

That's another high priority agenda item for the right: continue destroying public education. It makes it easier for them to rule.

[Hey Hey]

That's another high priority agenda item for the right: continue destroying public education. It makes it easier for them to rule.

Rick, how has education been getting worse in the US? I thought that the opportunities have increased. Is it that people don't have them, don't opt for them, or that the education is low standard or somehow wrong (e.g. it's biased, has subject omissions, doesn't teach thinking, doesn't focus on the essentials [reading, writing, arithmetic], etc)?

In the UK, the opportunities for secondary (high school) and tertiary (university) education have increased over the last decade, but many feel that the standard has dropped. It is thought that in the paper chase, lots now think they know it all and have big mouths, but really have a 'thin' education so what they know is worthless, particularly in terms of achieving a better job (or this year, of even getting a job at all!). What we are becoming is short of tradesmen - plumbers, joiners, etc as youngsters aim for university to study subjects such as theatre studies and golf course management. So they turn out with no job and no thinking skills. Also, most now have to work whilst at university to pay their way and as we have no option to take time out in the UK system, they have less time to study or even soak up the extracurricular activities that are so important.

[Flex]

Yeah I have to agree the education game does seem to have been stepped up, although math skills are pretty lacking. There are definitely plenty of opportunities. Thats how I got my tuition fully paid for More people are in Universities now than ever... Too many if you ask me.

[GodConsciousness]

I am seeing some issues of capitalism penetrating the world of education as well. I feel that textbook prices are getting a bit out of hand and students are being forced to pay exorbitant prices for books while more professors seem to be assigning their own books to supplement their incomes even when books could be quite easily digitized and made readily available.

Credit card companies are paying for access to students and coke machines and snack machines are all over campuses everywhere while universities get kickbacks. Meanwhile a majority of the teaching staff are relegated to adjunct status and barely making enough money to survive or come close to paying off their school loans.

[Flex]

No one uses their textbooks nowadays anyways. It is all about the University of Wikipedia.

[GodConsciousness]

I am seriously contemplating going 100% online in my philosophy classes by assigning students readings from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy at http://plato.stanford.edu

[Flex]

Looks like a pretty cool resource. Philosophy would be a good class to make online. Just open a class discussion board and require participation. You would probably get much more quality thought out responses than in traditional class discussions. I am sure your students would appreciate not having to buy a text book as well.

[GodConsciousness]

I am actually teaching a world religions class online for one of the colleges I work for and will likely do a philosophy course online in the near future. There are some advantages (as well as drawbacks) to online formats.

[GodConsciousness]

Incidentally, I don't have issues with capitalism per say. Innovation drives the global economy and I tend to agree with Ayn Rand's assessment of capitalism in so far as justice in terms of economic relationships is defined in terms of trade. What one gives in terms of innovation or products, one receives in return proportionately to their contributions.

[Rick]

Rick, how has education been getting worse in the US?

Public education is fundamental to democracy, so naturally the Repugs here want to destroy it. ("Repug" is short for "Repugligan" which is the party currently out of power. It stands for repugnant, ugly, thugs, and hooligans.) One way they are continuously trying to defund public education is to try to divert education funds into "vouchers" for private schools so kids of the rich then get government subsidy and public schools get cut even more.

When the Repugs are in power, they cut taxes on the rich (but seem to like taxes on the workers) and then get hysterical about the resulting deficit and use that as the rationale to again cut education.

Right now we have public school class sizes up around 36, while most restrooms on campuses are unusable. When they cut the school funding, they can't cut teachers so maintenance gets tossed overboard. Then they have to abandon classrooms with leaking roofs and kids have to carry water to school because the drinking fountains don't work.

The Repug strategy is to cut as much as possible so that when the schools get really bad, workers will give in and vote for school vouchers so the public schools will then be completely destroyed, common people will be completely clueless, and the Repugs can institute totalitarian government of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations.

[GodConsciousness]

Rick, how has education been getting worse in the US?

Public education is fundamental to democracy, so naturally the Repugs here want to destroy it. ("Repug" is short for "Repugligan" which is the party currently out of power. It stands for repugnant, ugly, thugs, and hooligans.) One way they are continuously trying to defund public education is to try to divert education funds into "vouchers" for private schools so kids of the rich then get government subsidy and public schools get cut even more.

When the Repugs are in power, they cut taxes on the rich (but seem to like taxes on the workers) and then get hysterical about the resulting deficit and use that as the rationale to again cut education.

Right now we have public school class sizes up around 36, while most restrooms on campuses are unusable. When they cut the school funding, they can't cut teachers so maintenance gets tossed overboard. Then they have to abandon classrooms with leaking roofs and kids have to carry water to school because the drinking fountains don't work.

The Repug strategy is to cut as much as possible so that when the schools get really bad, workers will give in and vote for school vouchers so the public schools will then be completely destroyed, common people will be completely clueless, and the Repugs can institute totalitarian government of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations.

Education is generally paid for by property taxes and I am not sure to what extent either republicans or democrats are effecting property tax rates (although I am sure members of both parties do in fact make an impact on property taxes).

I think it is too intellectually easy (and lazy) to devolve into partisan politics and take sides with one side or another. As far as I am concerned, neither party is really living up to their potentials and I see much of government as a smoke and mirror show to justify their own existence.

In regards to education, I have seen my class sizes shoot through the roof at a state college. This is probably due to the current economic situation as much as anything. However, even though we are a state college, I don't think we should be receiving ANY tax dollars from either the state or the federal government. We can and should sustain ourselves and most of the excess money seems to be going to administration anyway. In two of my classes alone, the student's have contributed somewhere in the neighborhood of $27,000 in tuition. As the instructor, I only get about $1,500 per class (or $3,000 for these two classes). The rest of the money is going back into the school. My situation is not particularly unique and I think administration at many school districts and colleges throughout the nation is choking off any excess funds. Many colleges and universities are now being run like your local McDonalds- "keep as much of the faculty as part-time as humanely possible so we don't have to give them benefits or any commitment" seems to be the current vogue in administration. Many of the part-time faculty are lucky if they make $15,000/year from teaching while administrators are raking in six figures. Unfortunately, at many schools today teaching has taken a back seat to profit.

[Flex]

You are just living in the wrong area, that's all Come to the San Francisco Peninsula. Teachers are making pretty descent money here. Once again the rich get all of the best teachers. This I think is definitely a problem. Maybe they should sum up the property taxes across the entire state and then pay teachers accordingly.

Or better yet, make people take a drug test to get a welfare check. That ought to cut off a few loose ends. I have to take one to work my ass off at a crappy job. It only seems fair.

[Rick]

In California, public education is funded at the State level out of the general fund, which includes revenue from income, sales, and property taxes.

Governor Reagan (it goes without saying he was a Repug) ended free college education in California in the late 1960s. It should be free again, paid for by taxes on those who benefit most from an educated workforce and thriving economy: the rich.

[Flex]

The rich prosper from an educated outsourced workforce. Those people will still be shafted. I can go on odesk.com and get someone in the Philippines who is every bit as educated (if not more so) than anyone here to work for $2 an hour. This is one instance where I truly do believe there needs to be heavy government regulation.

[GodConsciousness]

Rick- it seems that you have a bone to pick with the "rich". Wealth is not necessarily a bad thing, nor is everyone who is wealthy evil. In a just meritocratic society, the people who give the most would naturally benefit the most in terms of economic rewards. People who do nothing or give nothing through their own productive efforts (or lack thereof as the case may be) get nothing in return. People earn their keep. Otherwise they perish. We seem to have developed an attitude in the US where people feel entitled to wealth or a job or food on their plates just for being alive. Yet, nobody owes us anything for simply existing- we have to earn our way. No company should be forced to hire anyone nor do corporations, the government, or any other institution owe us a job. If we want to work for someone else, we have to follow their rules. Otherwise, it is incumbent upon ourselves to make our own mark in the world and create our own job to survive.

[Phi]

I have to admit though, it can be quite hard to get a foot in the door to even display talent(let alone be appreciated for it). I've run into a fair number of shit employers and I fear for my future if I don't finish my education

[GodConsciousness]

I am by no means suggesting that the current economic climate is easy and one of the reasons is due in part to the massive control big businesses wield over our government (the original impetus behind this thread). The cards are a bit stacked in this game, but we can succeed and survive.

[Hey Hey]

Maybe we could list the ideal education system's requirements.

Here we go:

1. It's free to the user at the time of use.

[Phi]

I want to be plugged into a chamber where my body can rest but I can research and publish whatever just from thoughts
and its free

[Hey Hey]

I want to be plugged into a chamber where my body can rest but I can research and publish whatever just from thoughts
and its free

That's just plain ... sensible! But fail, because you didn't put it in a list. I'll take it the class on lists was stopped in the cutbacks!

[GodConsciousness]

That does sound kind of nice doesn't it? Seems like we are getting closer every day.

[GodConsciousness]

Maybe we could list the ideal education system's requirements.

Here we go:

1. It's free to the user at the time of use.

2. Comprehensive in scope- emphasizes mathematics, science, and technology as well as art, music, drama, and literature (we appear to be losing touch with the value of the arts)