BrainMeta'                 

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V  1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> brainless -social- animals ...
Albretch Mueller
post Mar 10, 2010, 06:47 AM
Post #1


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Mar 10, 2010
Member No.: 32650



As part of a theory of the semiotic mind-body link which (latest draft) you can find at: hsymbolicus wordpress category semiotics
~
I postulate and (try to) prove that mind and body are actually bridged by our semiosis, that there is no actual organ or functional articulation of the link in the brain per se; that consciousness is constructed as a triad in which our selves (each individual carrying a living, reflective brain, neurons, ...), society and our surrounding physical reality participate
~
I would like to know about studies on brainless animals; more specifically about brainless -social- animals.
~
Ants, very social animals indeed, (while trying to post a link, I got a message reading "You must make more posts before being allowed to post URL's" so search on youtube for "Ants create a lifeboat in the Amazon jungle - BBC wildlife" ( or u tube A042J0IDQK4))
~
have eyes and other exteroceptive senses but no real brain (more like a supraesophageal ganglion)
~
I wonder how far down (social animals with less and less of a brain) can you go
~
Any research or leads on these types of topics you could point me too?
~
Thank you
lbrtchx
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
wan
post Mar 10, 2010, 10:19 AM
Post #2


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 44
Joined: Mar 03, 2010
Member No.: 32643



This is an area of interest myself. Here's an ant colony where we know the rules faily well:
http://blog.ted.com/2008/01/deborah_gordon.php
Here's a talk about the same sort of behavior in both living and non-living systems:
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/steven_strogatz_on_sync.html

Here's the Amazon ants video you mentioned:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A042J0IDQK4

P.S. Going to bed now, I'll point out some even simpler versions of emergence later.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Albretch Mueller
post Mar 10, 2010, 03:22 PM
Post #3


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Mar 10, 2010
Member No.: 32650



Hey Wan et al,
~
thank you for your links, but, hoping the inquiry of my initial post will not be derailed by collateral discussions, I don't think they primarily relate to what I am aiming at:
~
1) Ants are way too smart ;-) for the kind of research I fancy about. I just used them as example to illustrate what I meant by brainless social animals
~
2) Even considering ants I think their social behavior is not "emergent" we still need to carefully study their semiosis and as part of it how they teach and learn the practices sustaining their societies
~
3) Strogatz on sync I found down right deceptive. Those metronomes are not -communicating- this is a purely physical phenomenon (and I am a theoretical physicist so I can thoroughly prove my claim, had I have the time/mind space to do so and if I wasn't sure Strogatz is using the term "communication" in a "free"/poetic way ;-))
~
Thank you
lbrtchx
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Rick
post Mar 10, 2010, 03:41 PM
Post #4


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 5916
Joined: Jul 23, 2004
From: Sunny Southern California
Member No.: 3068



Brainless social animals: corals?
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Hey Hey
post Mar 10, 2010, 03:45 PM
Post #5


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 7763
Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Member No.: 845



QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 10, 2010, 11:41 PM) *

Brainless social animals: corals?
I don't think they are social. They simply live in colonies due to reproductive dispersive factors. Many animals live in colony-like aggregations, e.g. mussels. Though I wouldn't be surprised if there are papers published describing chemical signalling between them and I suppose that might be called social interaction.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Rick
post Mar 10, 2010, 03:56 PM
Post #6


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 5916
Joined: Jul 23, 2004
From: Sunny Southern California
Member No.: 3068



That's why the question mark after the suggestion. Starfish are also brainless but have interesting behaviors.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Hey Hey
post Mar 10, 2010, 04:00 PM
Post #7


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 7763
Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Member No.: 845



Sponges are animals that have no nervous system. They are made of cells that are specialised (a few types only) but which can change their specialisation upon certain physiological demands/pressures.

As all of the individual cells of a sponge essentially work together for the good of the whole they might be thought of as individual animal cells in a social interaction.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Hey Hey
post Mar 10, 2010, 04:05 PM
Post #8


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 7763
Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Member No.: 845



What about plasmodial slime molds or cellular slime molds as model organisms (brainless -social- organisms)? The aren't animals (they are fungus-like organisms) but they are cells that work together (socially?) under the influence of chemical signals to become one organism (syncytically [plasmodial] or temporarily [cellular]).
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Albretch Mueller
post Mar 10, 2010, 07:55 PM
Post #9


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Mar 10, 2010
Member No.: 32650



> They simply live in colonies due to reproductive dispersive factors.
~
and also because they totally depend on their immediate habitat for sustenance (like trees). the definition of social in the case of corals would be more than half way off since they don't communicate to each other
~
> Many animals live in colony-like aggregations, e.g. mussels. Though I wouldn't be surprised if there are papers published describing chemical signalling between them and I suppose that might be called social interaction.
~
As we could see in the case of ants they are able to organize and move their societies to other places and they do communicate, since they use their antennae and chemicals to -mean- something (different from what these chemical substances would physically do) and they are able to make their different exteroceptive senses work together
~
Thanks
lbrtchx
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
wan
post Mar 10, 2010, 10:02 PM
Post #10


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 44
Joined: Mar 03, 2010
Member No.: 32643



QUOTE(Albretch Mueller @ Mar 10, 2010, 06:22 PM) *
Hey Wan et al,
~
thank you for your links, but, hoping the inquiry of my initial post will not be derailed by collateral discussions, I don't think they primarily relate to what I am aiming at:
~
1) Ants are way too smart ;-) for the kind of research I fancy about. I just used them as example to illustrate what I meant by brainless social animals
I'm not sure in what way you consider ants too smart. They do not "communicate" anything as they do no message any information, they simply know what job another ant is doing from smelling with their antenna. Each ant only has one smell from their job, so even if you called that communication they only have one word each ant can speak. Like running are saying: "Job1, job1, job1". While another ant runs around saying: Job2, job2, job2. That is it, and all complex decision are made from that alone. The ants can even be fooled into not doing certain jobs by glass beads that smell like that job, which proves the ants aren't actually "saying" anything, they simply smell like their job.

QUOTE(Albretch Mueller @ Mar 10, 2010, 06:22 PM) *
2) Even considering ants I think their social behavior is not "emergent" we still need to carefully study their semiosis and as part of it how they teach and learn the practices sustaining their societies
You may want to pay closer attention to that video, because ants neither teach nor learn anything in there entire life, nor do they 'communicate' anything. They simply start at one job and switch to the next job when they don't smell many ants passing them to do that job. It's even primarily a one way progression through the job sequence from inside the nest to the outside.

QUOTE(Albretch Mueller @ Mar 10, 2010, 06:22 PM) *
3) Strogatz on sync I found down right deceptive. Those metronomes are not -communicating- this is a purely physical phenomenon (and I am a theoretical physicist so I can thoroughly prove my claim, had I have the time/mind space to do so and if I wasn't sure Strogatz is using the term "communication" in a "free"/poetic way ;-))


You can say the metronomes aren't -communicating-, but neither are the ants in the way you define communication. Perhaps you need to better define "communication". Because so long as it hinges on a "perception" of smart behavior you can simply divide animals into too smart to count, or not social. There is no dividing line between smart and not smart except in our perception of complexity.

~~~~~~~~
QUOTE(Albretch Mueller @ Mar 10, 2010, 10:55 PM) *

> They simply live in colonies due to reproductive dispersive factors.
~
and also because they totally depend on their immediate habitat for sustenance (like trees). the definition of social in the case of corals would be more than half way off since they don't communicate to each other
Ants don't communicate either, rather jobs are a dispersive factor. But are you sure this is all slime mold can do? Check these links out.
Slime mold navigates mazes:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sci/tech/944790.stm
Perhaps they are using chemical gradients, smells like the ant, the way these oil droplets do:
http://esciencenews.com/articles/2010/02/18/oil.droplets.can.navigate.complex.maze
But then that wouldn't explain how slime mold learns to do this:
http://discovermagazine.com/2009/jan/071
That makes slime mold every bit as smart as ants, if not smarter. I don't know any research that indicates an ant can be "taught" or "learn" anything from other ants or otherwise, but slime mold can.

QUOTE(Albretch Mueller @ Mar 10, 2010, 10:55 PM) *
As we could see in the case of ants they are able to organize and move their societies to other places and they do communicate, since they use their antennae and chemicals to -mean- something (different from what these chemical substances would physically do) and they are able to make their different exteroceptive senses work together
As noted the ants aren't anymore "communicating" than we would be "communicating" we smelled each other. There is no language and ants can't choose their smell, ants just smell.

Even bacteria are more complex than ants in their "language". They not only have a chemical "language", they have two. One to "speak" with their own species and one to "speak" with other species of bacteria. Unlike the ants they don't even have to rub antenna to get the "message". Yet the rules is very much like the ant rules of "communication".
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/bonnie_bassler_on_how_bacteria_communicate.html
You've called ants "too smart", but by this definition bacteria are multilingual super geniuses.

I'm afraid you need a better way to define "smart", "social", "emergent", "semiosis", etc. that doesn't include you making artificial distinctions and forcing everything into your chosen preconceptions, and calling anything somebody labels outside those preconceptions a "free/poetic way". It it your definition that I am perceiving as the "free/poetic way".
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Albretch Mueller
post Mar 11, 2010, 02:50 AM
Post #11


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Mar 10, 2010
Member No.: 32650



Wan et al,
QUOTE(wan @ Mar 10, 2010, 10:02 PM) *

QUOTE(Albretch Mueller @ Mar 10, 2010, 06:22 PM) *

~
1) Ants are way too smart ;-) for the kind of research I fancy about. I just used them as example to illustrate what I meant by brainless social animals


I'm not sure in what way you consider ants too smart. They do not "communicate" anything as they do no message any information, they simply know what job another ant is doing from smelling with their antenna. Each ant only has one smell from their job, so even if you called that communication they only have one word each ant can speak. Like running are saying: "Job1, job1, job1". While another ant runs around saying: Job2, job2, job2.

~
those "job#" sequences already count as messaging information among one another in a mutually/socially valuing way; namely communicating, even if they use their olfactory senses, which I find very interesting, because (even as you rightly say I should study/read up about ants ...) I can see intratextuality right there, which show a higher encoding capacity
~
Does their "chemical alphabet" contain only two letters? What is the longest sequence of "job#" sequences they can encode? Are those chemical "job#" sequences all they use for communicating?
~
QUOTE(wan @ Mar 10, 2010, 10:02 PM) *

That is it, and all complex decision are made from that alone. The ants can even be fooled into not doing certain jobs by glass beads that smell like that job, which proves the ants aren't actually "saying" anything, they simply smell like their job.

~
As you point out, they can be easily deceived into thinking otherwise (which in a sense also proves they are using sings), but do you know of cases on which ants have "manipulated" their own smells in some ways for individual gains, that means they have "lied"?
~
QUOTE(wan @ Mar 10, 2010, 10:02 PM) *

QUOTE(Albretch Mueller @ Mar 10, 2010, 06:22 PM) *

2) Even considering ants I think their social behavior is not "emergent" we still need to carefully study their semiosis and as part of it how they teach and learn the practices sustaining their societies


You may want to pay closer attention to that video, because ants neither teach nor learn anything in there entire life, nor do they 'communicate' anything. They simply start at one job and switch to the next job when they don't smell many ants passing them to do that job. It's even primarily a one way progression through the job sequence from inside the nest to the outside.

~
"ants neither teach nor learn anything in there entire life" ...
~
Well, that single sentence would be enough to debunk my whole theory. Ants (, bees, dophins, ...) definitely manifest behaviors:
~
Journal of Comparative Psychology. Vol 14(2), Oct 1932, 183-190. / By Evans, S.
Abstract: 300 ants were placed in a box from the end of which led two paths, one to a food box and the other to a blind end. Before food was placed in the food box, there was no preference for either route. After 20 days with the food in the box, all of the ants took the route leading to food. When a section of the runway leading to food was reversed, there was no change in the behavior. (PsycINFO Database Record © 2009 APA, all rights reserved)
~
which show some form of interaction with their physical and social environment through some form of tal (Teaching And Learning) In such cases what I would be interested in are how they change the "job#" sequences as they were changing their group behavior. That was a 1932 research I think they/we should know better by now
~
Also you say:
~
"They simply start at one job and switch to the next job when they don't smell many ants passing them to do that job."
~
yet that kind of behavior presuppose some scouting starter ants who set out those progressions
~
QUOTE(wan @ Mar 10, 2010, 10:02 PM) *

QUOTE(Albretch Mueller @ Mar 10, 2010, 06:22 PM) *

3) Strogatz on sync I found down right deceptive. Those metronomes are not -communicating- this is a purely physical phenomenon (and I am a theoretical physicist so I can thoroughly prove my claim, had I have the time/mind space to do so and if I wasn't sure Strogatz is using the term "communication" in a "free"/poetic way ;-))


You can say the metronomes aren't -communicating-, but neither are the ants in the way you define communication. Perhaps you need to better define "communication". Because so long as it hinges on a "perception" of smart behavior you can simply divide animals into too smart to count, or not social. There is no dividing line between smart and not smart except in our perception of complexity.

~
All Strogatz' metronomes did can be (simply) described by physical/mechanical conservation laws, considerations pertaining to symmetry, ... "communication" is, for example, what we are doing right now even if we may not agree with each other ;-). I find downright challenging when philosophers and even scientists say there is consciousness in a thermostat, even if they seem to be philosophical arguments. Consciousness, as I try to succinctly define in my 20+ page paper ;-), entails semiosis, socialization, TAL, ... and the physical/biological enabling support given by the promiscuity in neural signaling, relatively independent in- and outward neural connections, lots of neurons with higher order associations (in us, "higher" animals), neuronal plasticity, ...
~
Let me check out the links you provided to me
~
Thank you very much
lbrtchx
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
equable
post Mar 11, 2010, 04:19 AM
Post #12


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 48
Joined: Mar 08, 2010
Member No.: 32648



That reminded me about this observation:

Serotonin Makes Locusts Swarm
by Martin Enserink on January 29, 2009 12:00 AM

news . sciencemag . org/sciencenow/2009/01/29-02 . html

Serotonin, the brain chemical involved in depression, anger, and a variety of other human behaviors, turns out to have another surprising role: It transforms desert locusts from solitary, innocuous bugs into swarming, voracious pests that can ravage orchards and fields in a matter of hours. The findings, published in tomorrow's issue of Science, could point the way to new locust-control methods that don't rely on insecticides.

Most of the time, the desert locust (Schistocerca gregaria) is a bland, greenish insect that lives an inconspicuous life, shunning other members of its species and flying only by night. But when their densities reach a certain threshold, locusts become gregarious: They seek out one another's company, start reproducing explosively, and eventually form massive swarms that can move thousands of kilometers beyond their usual habitats and create havoc of biblical proportions. The behavior changes are accompanied by a complete physical makeover, taking several generations, during which the insects first turn pink and eventually black and bright yellow.

A team of researchers based at three universities in the United Kingdom and Australia had previously discovered that the change from solitary to gregarious starts when locusts see and smell one another, or when their hind legs touch one another, a stimulus researchers can imitate in the lab by gently tickling them. In a 2004 paper, the group also showed that levels of 13 brain chemicals differ between insects in the two stages (Science, 10 December 2004, p. 1881). Now, the researchers have singled out serotonin as "the first domino to fall, the one that sets the entire process in motion," says lead author Michael Anstey of the University of Oxford in the U.K.

When the team injected locusts with drugs that block serotonin's action or a compound that inhibited their own serotonin production, they didn't become gregarious, even when confronted with other insects or after leg tickling. But when the team treated solitary locusts with serotonin, or gave them a drug that boosted their own production, the locusts became gregarious, even in the absence of those stimuli. That shows that the chemical is both "necessary and sufficient" to kick-start the transformation, says neuroscientist R. Meldrum Robertson of Queen's University in Kingston, Canada, who studies locust flight. "It seems pretty clear that they have nailed down serotonin here," he says.

Currently, African countries spray millions of liters of insecticides over their fields every time locusts swarm; opinions vary on how effective this is (Science, 10 December 2004, p. 1880). Drugs targeting the serotonin pathway might provide an alternative, says Anstey, but others are skeptical. For one thing, serotonin signaling is so ubiquitous in the animal kingdom that other species might suffer major collateral damage, says neuroscientist Hans Hofmann of the University of Texas, Austin. He thinks a lot more work would be needed to find locust-specific targets. "At this point," says Hofmann, "I'm not sure that's more than science fiction."
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
wan
post Mar 11, 2010, 05:42 AM
Post #13


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 44
Joined: Mar 03, 2010
Member No.: 32643



QUOTE(Albretch Mueller @ Mar 11, 2010, 05:50 AM) *
those "job#" sequences already count as messaging information among one another in a mutually/socially valuing way; namely communicating, even if they use their olfactory senses, which I find very interesting, because (even as you rightly say I should study/read up about ants ...) I can see intratextuality right there, which show a higher encoding capacity
~
Does their "chemical alphabet" contain only two letters? What is the longest sequence of "job#" sequences they can encode? Are those chemical "job#" sequences all they use for communicating?
There is no encoding, and they don't choose what they smell like for other ants. They merely smell like the job they are doing. It works just like quorum sensing in bacteria. The only difference is that in bacteria it correlates behavior with population density. In these ants it correlates job density.

QUOTE(wan @ Mar 10, 2010, 10:02 PM) *
That is it, and all complex decision are made from that alone. The ants can even be fooled into not doing certain jobs by glass beads that smell like that job, which proves the ants aren't actually "saying" anything, they simply smell like their job.
~
As you point out, they can be easily deceived into thinking otherwise (which in a sense also proves they are using sings), but do you know of cases on which ants have "manipulated" their own smells in some ways for individual gains, that means they have "lied"?
To "lie" they would have to choose what they smell like, they don't. They simply smell like the job they are doing. They are no signs the ants choose to say to each other. They do not communicate a language. We choose our words, ants simply smell like what they're doing. You are mistaking emergent organization as "sings". Are you saying the glass beads "spoke" to the ants?

You pulled a 1932 reference and even that failed to show learning. In fact looking at it seems to show the opposite. It took 20 days for all the ants to figure out where the food was. When the food location was switched they didn't change behavior. In other words the foragers apparently roamed the territory randomly until they found the food on their own. Then they simply kept harvesting the food till it was gone. To roughly mimic what the slime mold did put food at two seperate locations, one location at a time, then switch between these 2 locations every 3 days. If they learn were to expect the food to be then you have a learned behavior on an individual ant basis. Still no actual communication though. In fact the 20 days lapse is very well explained by new ants exiting the nest as foragers numbers get reduced outside, due to being out harvesting the food. These ants that switched jobs was never told where the food was, but as they found it more would switch to foraging jobs, with no information about the food location, to fill the 'local' job distribution gap. If were were actually communicating, why did it take so long for all the ants to converge on the food source?

QUOTE(Albretch Mueller @ Mar 11, 2010, 05:50 AM) *
which show some form of interaction with their physical and social environment through some form of tal (Teaching And Learning) In such cases what I would be interested in are how they change the "job#" sequences as they were changing their group behavior. That was a 1932 research I think they/we should know better by now
That question was fully answered in that video with that species of ant. When these ants didn't see a certain number of ants doing a particular job in a certain amount of time, they start doing that job. That's it, nothing more. That *completely* explains their behavior and all changes in their behavior. Including why older colonies act differently than younger colonies. That was the whole point of the video, and why the speaker saved the fact that even colony age differences in behavior was also explained till last, to drive that point home. The same exact thing explains the behavior of the 1932 data you pulled up.

QUOTE(Albretch Mueller @ Mar 11, 2010, 05:50 AM) *
All Strogatz' metronomes did can be (simply) described by physical/mechanical conservation laws, considerations pertaining to symmetry, ... "communication" is, for example, what we are doing right now even if we may not agree with each other ;-).
We choose our words based on a meaning we want to convey. Ants do not. All biological systems operate on physical laws. I even have a thread that uses those metronomes as a cogent model of brain function, how brains learn, and how it explains empirical facts about our brain function.
http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=21874&hl=

Are you suggesting that there is something besides physics added to living systems to give them intelligence?
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
equable
post Mar 11, 2010, 07:01 AM
Post #14


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 48
Joined: Mar 08, 2010
Member No.: 32648



What is most interesting and amazing in ants is their ability to construct small bridges from their own bodies over small water flows so to assure safe migration of their colony over that water barrier. In that case probably some elements of specific type of collective intellect exhibit fact of their existence.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Albretch Mueller
post Mar 11, 2010, 12:16 PM
Post #15


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Mar 10, 2010
Member No.: 32650



QUOTE(equable @ Mar 11, 2010, 04:19 AM) *

That reminded me about this observation:
Serotonin Makes Locusts Swarm / by Martin Enserink on January 29, 2009 12:00 AM

~
Honestly, I really don't see how relevant these "let's see what bees on steroids do ..." kinds of research could be in relation to consciousness
~
lbrtchx
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Rick
post Mar 11, 2010, 12:41 PM
Post #16


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 5916
Joined: Jul 23, 2004
From: Sunny Southern California
Member No.: 3068



From Dictionary.com:

eq·ua·ble   /ˈɛkwəbəl, ˈikwə-/ [ek-wuh-buhl, ee-kwuh-]
–adjective
1.free from many changes or variations; uniform: an equable climate; an equable temperament.
2.uniform in operation or effect, as laws.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
equable
post Mar 11, 2010, 06:14 PM
Post #17


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 48
Joined: Mar 08, 2010
Member No.: 32648



QUOTE(Albretch%20Mueller @ Mar 12, 2010, 12:16 AM) *

QUOTE(equable @ Mar 11, 2010, 04:19 AM) *

That reminded me about this observation:
Serotonin Makes Locusts Swarm / by Martin Enserink on January 29, 2009 12:00 AM

~
Honestly, I really don't see how relevant these "let's see what bees on steroids do ..." kinds of research could be in relation to consciousness
~
lbrtchx


Actually spontaneous fluctuation of Serotonin in humans may lead to specific consolidation too.

I assume that specific chemistry leading to new sensory perceptions on subconscious level (any caster of new molecules formed in the brain as derivative of that chemistry can locate /sense/ some new kind of electromagnetic vibrations /integrating with the brain new signals coming from outside/ thus leading to some sort of cybernetic clustering – swarming of a population addicted to that specific chemistry) can trigger springing of some sort of collective intelligence.

The bees are 'addicted' to honey, while honey contains numerous elements, some of which maybe do trigger the swarming effect. If that unknown element diminishes in their diet, then I assume that Hives shall dilapidate. The same way with the ants: they consume many insects, which in their turn consume various plants, some of which may contain the same unknown element leading to (or supporting presence of the swarming effect) swarming just like in case of Locusts, which I indicated above.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Phi
post Mar 11, 2010, 06:25 PM
Post #18


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1349
Joined: Jul 11, 2008
From: Las Vegas, NV
Member No.: 25755



I like the topic...moreso because of how brainless most of the social animals are here.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Albretch Mueller
post Mar 11, 2010, 06:51 PM
Post #19


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Mar 10, 2010
Member No.: 32650



~
I keep getting those "You must make more posts before being allowed to post URL's" even if they are internal and previously authorized links ...
~
on Slime mold navigates mazes: news.bbc.co.uk 2 hi sci tech 944790 stm
~
"This remarkable process of cellular computation implies that cellular materials can show a primitive intelligence"
~
Not really a good case for me. I think some form of semiosis is a very important condition in order to speak of intelligence
~
Now on: discovermagazine 2009 jan 071
~
I found very interesting what they noticed:
~
"When conditions stayed stable for a while, the slime-mold amoebas gave up on their hourly braking, but when another single jolt of cold was applied, they resumed the behavior and correctly recalled the 60-minute interval."
~
on ted talks lang eng bonnie_bassler_on_how_bacteria_communicate.html
~
Wan you definitely are a ted fan, aren't you?
~
But in both cases I found the claim of "communication" and "talk" used in a metaphoric way
~
on your articulation (showtopic=21874)
QUOTE(wan @ Mar 11, 2010, 05:42 AM) *

... how these functions can arise spontaneously

~
as I already said, I don't really get what they mean when they say that these Strogatz' metronomes-like systems as "self-organizing" due to metronomes communicating with each other ... as I watched that TED video I realized that he was using totally unrelated phenomena and drawing conclusions that (to me (and I may be wrong)) didn't make any sense whatsoever
~
anyone with some training in physics/math could exactly describe this so-called self organization with pure math, so what is the point of speaking of "communicating metronomes". How come they always "communicate" the same exact thing in exactly the same way? ... and I will stop now
~
QUOTE(wan @ Mar 11, 2010, 05:42 AM) *

Qualia, instinct, intelligence, and consciousness must be defined in a consistent and hierarchical manner to be meaningful

I would rather say interrelated/interdependent manner
QUOTE(wan @ Mar 11, 2010, 05:42 AM) *

If you place these two metronomes on a single movable plate they will spontaneously sync up

"spontaneously" you say ... ;-)
QUOTE(wan @ Mar 11, 2010, 05:42 AM) *

[1] Memory is not stored in particular brain locations.
[2] Electrical stimulation of individual neurons can produce memories, actions, etc., as if that was the brain location of the memory, skill, etc.
[3] Recalling a memory increases the rate the memory degrades.
[4] Recalling or observing something activates related information not previously related through any observation (inventiveness).
[5] Memory consolidation, such that memories get overlayed and entangled with other memories, thus prone to false memories.

Now, for some reason (which (to me) are not entirely clear from your model) I find all these aspects relating to memory to bear some true weight
QUOTE(wan @ Mar 11, 2010, 05:42 AM) *

We also know that if these areas are damaged early enough in development that the same function can develop elsewhere.

Or -non-existent- may I add
QUOTE(wan @ Mar 11, 2010, 05:42 AM) *

It's rather trivial to fool our sense of qualia when it's understood how our mind constructs it. You may see a box over in the corner, but your eyes don't actually see a box. Rather your mind reconstructs a box from what it sees, based on previous experience, and feeds this qualia of a box to your representational model.

I don't think that qualia are just fed from the representational models of what you perceive.
When you dream you not only have sentience, but you quale them too in the same way as when you are asleep
~

QUOTE(wan @ Mar 11, 2010, 05:42 AM) *

... they don't choose what they smell like for other ants. They merely smell like the job they are doing.

~
Thank you, Wan! I think I clearly got your point now. As you have suggested "I don't really know what I am talking about ..." (which is not part of my inquiry or claim), it is obvious ;-) I should definitely read up on social biological populations and/or team up with people like you who have field experience with such matters, but still do they smear themselves with the odor of what the objects they carry purposely?
~
For a variety of obvious reasons bees and ants have been studied for a very long time. I think even Aristotle spoke of their behavior. Unfortunately I live in NYC and the animal populations around here are city rats and pigeons who fight each other for residual junk food and don't even bother to hide or move aside as you walk by ... and if you get attentive to these animals NYPD may acuse you of being a terrorist planning something or such crap, so you would be more like testing NYPD's levels of schizophrenia . . .
~
This is what I have in mind, and you guys may help structure/frame this idea better. I think it was Eric Kandel the one who stated (my recollection) "that there is the appropriate animal for each research topic". (Let's just fancy about it and forget about funding and other etceteras ;-)) I am trying to find studies on the right animal population to prove:
~
1) Consciousness (cx) is some semiotic socio-personal process in which the physics of our own exteroceptive senses and our outer intersubjective "reality" (some philosophers and materialist scientists (well, ...) would simply say "objective" ...) take part
~
2) There are no organs (as we have fingers, noses, hearts and pineal or sweat glands) or organic articulation (our CNS, digestive system, ...) actually "producing" cx
~
3) Teaching and Leaning (TAL) is a social endeavor; definitely more than (most) neuroscientists would be content with; those kinds of Pavlovian and behavioral experiments conducted on dogs, aplysia, bees, ...
~
4) I would like to experiment on animals which
~
4.1) are able to freely (to the point of being able to lie) encode their own talk
~
4.3) socially learn their encoding
~
4.2) brains can be somehow imaged and stimulated
~
As I understand things, Plato (in our Western Culture) was the first to think about and state really deep and mighty ideas about consciousness and communication in general when he wondered about "Universals". Nowadays cx has become virtually everyone's business most people have a materialist/physicalist approach in one way or the other to explain it and as far as I know virtually no one has articulated a theory about the importance of our semiosis. Even though we have signs staring at us right in front of our noses 24x7 ;-) (That in itself I find interesting (instead of the proverbial "it is all in your mind" I would say that "it is all in our signs" check out my paper to have a better idea of what I mean))
~
QUOTE(wan @ Mar 11, 2010, 05:42 AM) *

Are you suggesting that there is something besides physics added to living systems to give them intelligence?

Exactly! I think I can prove it theoretically, but in order to have my cake and eat it too I'd wish I could prove it with some actual animal population
~
Thank you
lbrtchx
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Albretch Mueller
post Mar 11, 2010, 07:02 PM
Post #20


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Mar 10, 2010
Member No.: 32650



QUOTE(equable @ Mar 11, 2010, 06:14 PM) *

QUOTE(Albretch%20Mueller @ Mar 12, 2010, 12:16 AM) *

QUOTE(equable @ Mar 11, 2010, 04:19 AM) *

That reminded me about this observation:
Serotonin Makes Locusts Swarm / by Martin Enserink on January 29, 2009 12:00 AM

~
Honestly, I really don't see how relevant these "let's see what bees on steroids do ..." kinds of research could be in relation to consciousness
~
lbrtchx


Actually spontaneous fluctuation of Serotonin in humans may lead to specific consolidation too.

I assume that specific chemistry leading to new sensory perceptions on subconscious level (any caster of new molecules formed in the brain as derivative of that chemistry can locate /sense/ some new kind of electromagnetic vibrations /integrating with the brain new signals coming from outside/ thus leading to some sort of cybernetic clustering – swarming of a population addicted to that specific chemistry) can trigger springing of some sort of collective intelligence.

The bees are 'addicted' to honey, while honey contains numerous elements, some of which maybe do trigger the swarming effect. If that unknown element diminishes in their diet, then I assume that Hives shall dilapidate. The same way with the ants: they consume many insects, which in their turn consume various plants, some of which may contain the same unknown element leading to (or supporting presence of the swarming effect) swarming just like in case of Locusts, which I indicated above.

Sure, better fed or drunk people and/or animals may behave more or less friendly/social, but how could changes due to those specific consolidations determine or even influence our "mind-body" link?
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Phi
post Mar 11, 2010, 08:23 PM
Post #21


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1349
Joined: Jul 11, 2008
From: Las Vegas, NV
Member No.: 25755



certain levels of brainwaves representing a certain physical states
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
equable
post Mar 11, 2010, 10:14 PM
Post #22


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 48
Joined: Mar 08, 2010
Member No.: 32648



QUOTE(Albretch%25252520Mueller @ Mar 12, 2010, 07:02 AM) *

QUOTE(equable @ Mar 11, 2010, 06:14 PM) *

QUOTE(Albretch%2525252520Mueller @ Mar 12, 2010, 12:16 AM) *

QUOTE(equable @ Mar 11, 2010, 04:19 AM) *

That reminded me about this observation:
Serotonin Makes Locusts Swarm / by Martin Enserink on January 29, 2009 12:00 AM

~
Honestly, I really don't see how relevant these "let's see what bees on steroids do ..." kinds of research could be in relation to consciousness
~
lbrtchx


Actually spontaneous fluctuation of Serotonin in humans may lead to specific consolidation too.

I assume that specific chemistry leading to new sensory perceptions on subconscious level (any caster of new molecules formed in the brain as derivative of that chemistry can locate /sense/ some new kind of electromagnetic vibrations /integrating with the brain new signals coming from outside/ thus leading to some sort of cybernetic clustering – swarming of a population addicted to that specific chemistry) can trigger springing of some sort of collective intelligence.

The bees are 'addicted' to honey, while honey contains numerous elements, some of which maybe do trigger the swarming effect. If that unknown element diminishes in their diet, then I assume that Hives shall dilapidate. The same way with the ants: they consume many insects, which in their turn consume various plants, some of which may contain the same unknown element leading to (or supporting presence of the swarming effect) swarming just like in case of Locusts, which I indicated above.

Sure, better fed or drunk people and/or animals may behave more or less friendly/social, but how could changes due to those specific consolidations determine or even influence our "mind-body" link?


Actually that is elementary Radiophysics of relatively low-dimensional systems: any complex molecular structure being integrated with biological cell in a way to interchange electrons with the cell (or transfer/amplify/focus some external electromagnetic field) can serve a tuner (aerial) of external electro-magnetic vibrations, thus somehow changing sensoric capabilities of the cell. A collection of cells exchanging information in that way may evolve to/developed into some sort of cybernetic system sometimes exhibiting elements of intelligent behavior in case if that collection of cells is a part of some mobile biological entities. In this particular case, probably the research I quoted above ‘Serotonin Makes Locusts Swarm’ probably demonstrates some observable traces of existence of such phenomena.
Significant changes of perceptional sensorics of biological objects is well elaborated discipline; in particular, even in the middle ages it was known that ladies practicing witchcraft were addicted to usage of some specific stuff made of glue of some plants, which being put on skin could impart specific sensing experiences, some medieval reports report that ladies been feeling themselves a little bit furry and somehow more mobile in electromagnetic geographic dimensions of our reality.
As an extra Radiophysical example one can consider Arsenic poisoning, Arsenic poisoning is accompanied by its accumulation in hairs, from Radiophiscal point of view a hair doped by Arsenic can be considered as a good electromagnetic tuner (aerial), and as it is interconnected with skin cells and goes deeper into the skin, then presumably such an upgraded hair should conduct some kind of information to the cells as a result of tuning of some external electromagnetic vibrations, it is hard to say weather human brain can integrate and analyze those signals in a proper way.

So if it ‘works’ on humans it definitely somehow should ‘work’ on insects eating different plants, so insects Swarming somehow is interrelated with their diet.

The case of better fed people, which you mention is probably should be referred to 'Methamphetamine& human sensorics' subject.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Albretch Mueller
post Mar 12, 2010, 04:09 AM
Post #23


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Mar 10, 2010
Member No.: 32650



QUOTE(equable @ Mar 11, 2010, 10:14 PM) *

...

So if it ‘works’ on humans it definitely somehow should ‘work’ on insects eating different plants, so insects Swarming somehow is interrelated with their diet.

The case of better fed people, which you mention is probably should be referred to 'Methamphetamine& human sensorics' subject.


~
But how would all of this arsenic poisoning and stuff -essentially- relate to our mind-body link?
~
Also, there were certain social aspects that determined the abusive treatment they gave to so-called "witches" in those times. Similar things happen in our times as well even if we like to think of ourselves as more advanced, both technologically and morally
~
I pretty much abandoned physical causes as an "explanation" of the hard problem of cx
~
lbrtchx
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
equable
post Mar 12, 2010, 05:26 AM
Post #24


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 48
Joined: Mar 08, 2010
Member No.: 32648



QUOTE(Albretch%20Mueller @ Mar 12, 2010, 04:09 PM) *

~
But how would all of this arsenic poisoning and stuff -essentially- relate to our mind-body link?
~
Also, there were certain social aspects that determined the abusive treatment they gave to so-called "witches" in those times. Similar things happen in our times as well even if we like to think of ourselves as more advanced, both technologically and morally
~
I pretty much abandoned physical causes as an "explanation" of the hard problem of cx
~
lbrtchx


There are various studies on the subject, few openly analyze the case from the above mentioned point of view, it is hard to say why.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Albretch Mueller
post Mar 12, 2010, 05:48 AM
Post #25


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Mar 10, 2010
Member No.: 32650



~
these linked videos obviously show that ants definitely use signs ...
~
// __
~
http://library.thinkquest.org/05aug/01006/ants.htm
~
"Without a voice or ears, ants are capable of sending at least fifty messages through body language and pheromones."
~
// __ Ants have Pets ??
~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcAUa6e3x0s
~
http://www.megavideo.com/?v=ZSIXYMHM&setlang=en
~
if they are able to not only communicate among themselves, but also with other animlas which they care for and use as some kind of shepherds, and they in- and outwardly use body language and pheromones, which codes they combine (the stronger the odor the faster they run ...) these ants are intelligent!!!
~
lbrtchx
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
equable
post Mar 12, 2010, 07:17 AM
Post #26


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 48
Joined: Mar 08, 2010
Member No.: 32648



QUOTE(Albretch%25252520Mueller @ Mar 12, 2010, 05:48 PM) *


Impressive video, thank you.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
wan
post Mar 12, 2010, 07:23 AM
Post #27


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 44
Joined: Mar 03, 2010
Member No.: 32643



QUOTE(Albretch Mueller @ Mar 12, 2010, 08:48 AM) *

~
these two links obviously show that ants use signs ...
~
// __
~
http://library.thinkquest.org/05aug/01006/ants.htm
~
"Without a voice or ears, ants are capable of sending at least fifty messages through body language and pheromones."
~
// __ Ants have Pets ??
~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcAUa6e3x0s
~
lbrtchx

Yes I know very well about ants keeping aphids. Pets!!!! These aphids are NOT "pets". They are farmed for honeydew. Yet the tending job is just like any other job the ants do and doesn't require any more communication than normal foraging jobs to distribute the jobs among the ants.

And about your thinkquest.org link... Is that your evidence? For real!!!! Look at this quote:
QUOTE(http://library.thinkquest.org/05aug/01006/ants.htm)
A worker ant who finds food will run back to the nest while touching the ground with its abdomen. This produces a chemical scent trail. When it reaches the nest, the excited ant will touch its fellow ants with its antennae which causes them to follow the trail leading to the food. After a while, a line of ants can be seen marching between the nest and the food.

Yes the scouts will leave a chemical trail for the foragers. So what evidence is there that the antenna touching has anything to do with telling the ants to follow the trail? Why would it even be necessary to tell an ant, with the 'job' of following chemical trails to collect food, to follow a trail? Isn't the trail itself enough to tell the ant about the food? The antenna touching merely tells the ants what job their doing, just like I explained.

They are also wrong about ants not having a voice of sorts. Some actually do vocalize. Yet it still fails to make your case. Do you have any idea what http://www.oraclefoundation.org/ is, or what its buisness model is? It's a 501(c )(3) acting as a PR firm for http://www.oracle.com/, hence the need for a teacher or school administrator to enroll as they represent a customer base, which you are not. You really really must do better than this. I don't expect detailed strict controls, but at least say something about how the claims were differentiated from alternative interpretation. Do those 50 body language and pheromones represent the entirety of all 20k+ ant species? That would be pretty sucky with over 20k species. This is PR crap some secretary pulled out of whatever source google served up. Even their reference list is full of dead and malformed URLs and commercial sites selling ants. Couldn't even spell .edu (.adu) in the url. It's almost as silly as "pets".
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
equable
post Mar 12, 2010, 07:44 AM
Post #28


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 48
Joined: Mar 08, 2010
Member No.: 32648



Parallel situation:
New study - Elements of Intelligence: Octopus Tool Use: http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=hlh0cS...feature=related
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Albretch Mueller
post Mar 12, 2010, 07:45 AM
Post #29


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Mar 10, 2010
Member No.: 32650



QUOTE(wan @ Mar 12, 2010, 07:23 AM) *

They are farmed for honeydew ...

~
From the point of view of a Theory of (ants') Minds there is a lot of stuff going on right there (as I see it)
~
1) Ants do know the difference between themselves and aphids (extending the kind of division of labor they have among themselves). This could be actually checked if we were able to image their brains and study the specifics of the differences of the communication they have among themselves, among themselves talking about aphids and with aphids
~
2) They have observed aphids' behaviors and somehow taken notice of not only their similarities, but also how they can have a functional symbiosis
~
QUOTE(wan @ Mar 12, 2010, 07:23 AM) *

And about your thinkquest.org link... Is that your evidence? For real!!!! ...

~
I haven't used these video feeds as a way to prove or extract conclusions about anything. They just show what I see as probably plausible examples of the level of intelligence in ants
~
lbrtchx
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Trip like I do
post Mar 12, 2010, 07:48 AM
Post #30


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 5149
Joined: Aug 11, 2004
From: Earth^2
Member No.: 3202



QUOTE(Phi @ Mar 11, 2010, 09:25 PM) *

I like the topic...moreso because of how brainless most of the social animals are here.

oh no you didn't
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

2 Pages V  1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 23rd April 2014 - 07:14 PM


Home     |     About     |    Research     |    Forum     |    Feedback  


Copyright © BrainMeta. All rights reserved.
Terms of Use  |  Last Modified Tue Jan 17 2006 12:39 am

Consciousness Expansion · Brain Mapping · Neural Circuits · Connectomics  ·  Neuroscience Forum  ·  Brain Maps Blog