brainless -social- animals ... Options

[Albretch Mueller]

As part of a theory of the semiotic mind-body link which (latest draft) you can find at: hsymbolicus wordpress category semiotics
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I postulate and (try to) prove that mind and body are actually bridged by our semiosis, that there is no actual organ or functional articulation of the link in the brain per se; that consciousness is constructed as a triad in which our selves (each individual carrying a living, reflective brain, neurons, ...), society and our surrounding physical reality participate
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I would like to know about studies on brainless animals; more specifically about brainless -social- animals.
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Ants, very social animals indeed, (while trying to post a link, I got a message reading "You must make more posts before being allowed to post URL's" so search on youtube for "Ants create a lifeboat in the Amazon jungle - BBC wildlife" ( or u tube A042J0IDQK4))
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have eyes and other exteroceptive senses but no real brain (more like a supraesophageal ganglion)
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I wonder how far down (social animals with less and less of a brain) can you go
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Any research or leads on these types of topics you could point me too?
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Thank you
lbrtchx

[equable]

That reminded me about this observation:

Serotonin Makes Locusts Swarm
by Martin Enserink on January 29, 2009 12:00 AM

news . sciencemag . org/sciencenow/2009/01/29-02 . html

Serotonin, the brain chemical involved in depression, anger, and a variety of other human behaviors, turns out to have another surprising role: It transforms desert locusts from solitary, innocuous bugs into swarming, voracious pests that can ravage orchards and fields in a matter of hours. The findings, published in tomorrow's issue of Science, could point the way to new locust-control methods that don't rely on insecticides.

Most of the time, the desert locust (Schistocerca gregaria) is a bland, greenish insect that lives an inconspicuous life, shunning other members of its species and flying only by night. But when their densities reach a certain threshold, locusts become gregarious: They seek out one another's company, start reproducing explosively, and eventually form massive swarms that can move thousands of kilometers beyond their usual habitats and create havoc of biblical proportions. The behavior changes are accompanied by a complete physical makeover, taking several generations, during which the insects first turn pink and eventually black and bright yellow.

A team of researchers based at three universities in the United Kingdom and Australia had previously discovered that the change from solitary to gregarious starts when locusts see and smell one another, or when their hind legs touch one another, a stimulus researchers can imitate in the lab by gently tickling them. In a 2004 paper, the group also showed that levels of 13 brain chemicals differ between insects in the two stages (Science, 10 December 2004, p. 1881). Now, the researchers have singled out serotonin as "the first domino to fall, the one that sets the entire process in motion," says lead author Michael Anstey of the University of Oxford in the U.K.

When the team injected locusts with drugs that block serotonin's action or a compound that inhibited their own serotonin production, they didn't become gregarious, even when confronted with other insects or after leg tickling. But when the team treated solitary locusts with serotonin, or gave them a drug that boosted their own production, the locusts became gregarious, even in the absence of those stimuli. That shows that the chemical is both "necessary and sufficient" to kick-start the transformation, says neuroscientist R. Meldrum Robertson of Queen's University in Kingston, Canada, who studies locust flight. "It seems pretty clear that they have nailed down serotonin here," he says.

Currently, African countries spray millions of liters of insecticides over their fields every time locusts swarm; opinions vary on how effective this is (Science, 10 December 2004, p. 1880). Drugs targeting the serotonin pathway might provide an alternative, says Anstey, but others are skeptical. For one thing, serotonin signaling is so ubiquitous in the animal kingdom that other species might suffer major collateral damage, says neuroscientist Hans Hofmann of the University of Texas, Austin. He thinks a lot more work would be needed to find locust-specific targets. "At this point," says Hofmann, "I'm not sure that's more than science fiction."

[Albretch Mueller]

That reminded me about this observation:
Serotonin Makes Locusts Swarm / by Martin Enserink on January 29, 2009 12:00 AM

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Honestly, I really don't see how relevant these "let's see what bees on steroids do ..." kinds of research could be in relation to consciousness
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lbrtchx

[equable]

That reminded me about this observation:
Serotonin Makes Locusts Swarm / by Martin Enserink on January 29, 2009 12:00 AM

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Honestly, I really don't see how relevant these "let's see what bees on steroids do ..." kinds of research could be in relation to consciousness
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lbrtchx

Actually spontaneous fluctuation of Serotonin in humans may lead to specific consolidation too.

I assume that specific chemistry leading to new sensory perceptions on subconscious level (any caster of new molecules formed in the brain as derivative of that chemistry can locate /sense/ some new kind of electromagnetic vibrations /integrating with the brain new signals coming from outside/ thus leading to some sort of cybernetic clustering – swarming of a population addicted to that specific chemistry) can trigger springing of some sort of collective intelligence.

The bees are 'addicted' to honey, while honey contains numerous elements, some of which maybe do trigger the swarming effect. If that unknown element diminishes in their diet, then I assume that Hives shall dilapidate. The same way with the ants: they consume many insects, which in their turn consume various plants, some of which may contain the same unknown element leading to (or supporting presence of the swarming effect) swarming just like in case of Locusts, which I indicated above.

[Albretch Mueller]

That reminded me about this observation:
Serotonin Makes Locusts Swarm / by Martin Enserink on January 29, 2009 12:00 AM

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Honestly, I really don't see how relevant these "let's see what bees on steroids do ..." kinds of research could be in relation to consciousness
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lbrtchx

Actually spontaneous fluctuation of Serotonin in humans may lead to specific consolidation too.

I assume that specific chemistry leading to new sensory perceptions on subconscious level (any caster of new molecules formed in the brain as derivative of that chemistry can locate /sense/ some new kind of electromagnetic vibrations /integrating with the brain new signals coming from outside/ thus leading to some sort of cybernetic clustering – swarming of a population addicted to that specific chemistry) can trigger springing of some sort of collective intelligence.

The bees are 'addicted' to honey, while honey contains numerous elements, some of which maybe do trigger the swarming effect. If that unknown element diminishes in their diet, then I assume that Hives shall dilapidate. The same way with the ants: they consume many insects, which in their turn consume various plants, some of which may contain the same unknown element leading to (or supporting presence of the swarming effect) swarming just like in case of Locusts, which I indicated above.

Sure, better fed or drunk people and/or animals may behave more or less friendly/social, but how could changes due to those specific consolidations determine or even influence our "mind-body" link?

[equable]

That reminded me about this observation:
Serotonin Makes Locusts Swarm / by Martin Enserink on January 29, 2009 12:00 AM

~
Honestly, I really don't see how relevant these "let's see what bees on steroids do ..." kinds of research could be in relation to consciousness
~
lbrtchx

Actually spontaneous fluctuation of Serotonin in humans may lead to specific consolidation too.

I assume that specific chemistry leading to new sensory perceptions on subconscious level (any caster of new molecules formed in the brain as derivative of that chemistry can locate /sense/ some new kind of electromagnetic vibrations /integrating with the brain new signals coming from outside/ thus leading to some sort of cybernetic clustering – swarming of a population addicted to that specific chemistry) can trigger springing of some sort of collective intelligence.

The bees are 'addicted' to honey, while honey contains numerous elements, some of which maybe do trigger the swarming effect. If that unknown element diminishes in their diet, then I assume that Hives shall dilapidate. The same way with the ants: they consume many insects, which in their turn consume various plants, some of which may contain the same unknown element leading to (or supporting presence of the swarming effect) swarming just like in case of Locusts, which I indicated above.

Sure, better fed or drunk people and/or animals may behave more or less friendly/social, but how could changes due to those specific consolidations determine or even influence our "mind-body" link?

Actually that is elementary Radiophysics of relatively low-dimensional systems: any complex molecular structure being integrated with biological cell in a way to interchange electrons with the cell (or transfer/amplify/focus some external electromagnetic field) can serve a tuner (aerial) of external electro-magnetic vibrations, thus somehow changing sensoric capabilities of the cell. A collection of cells exchanging information in that way may evolve to/developed into some sort of cybernetic system sometimes exhibiting elements of intelligent behavior in case if that collection of cells is a part of some mobile biological entities. In this particular case, probably the research I quoted above ‘Serotonin Makes Locusts Swarm’ probably demonstrates some observable traces of existence of such phenomena.
Significant changes of perceptional sensorics of biological objects is well elaborated discipline; in particular, even in the middle ages it was known that ladies practicing witchcraft were addicted to usage of some specific stuff made of glue of some plants, which being put on skin could impart specific sensing experiences, some medieval reports report that ladies been feeling themselves a little bit furry and somehow more mobile in electromagnetic geographic dimensions of our reality.
As an extra Radiophysical example one can consider Arsenic poisoning, Arsenic poisoning is accompanied by its accumulation in hairs, from Radiophiscal point of view a hair doped by Arsenic can be considered as a good electromagnetic tuner (aerial), and as it is interconnected with skin cells and goes deeper into the skin, then presumably such an upgraded hair should conduct some kind of information to the cells as a result of tuning of some external electromagnetic vibrations, it is hard to say weather human brain can integrate and analyze those signals in a proper way.

So if it ‘works’ on humans it definitely somehow should ‘work’ on insects eating different plants, so insects Swarming somehow is interrelated with their diet.

The case of better fed people, which you mention is probably should be referred to 'Methamphetamine& human sensorics' subject.

[Albretch Mueller]

...

So if it ‘works’ on humans it definitely somehow should ‘work’ on insects eating different plants, so insects Swarming somehow is interrelated with their diet.

The case of better fed people, which you mention is probably should be referred to 'Methamphetamine& human sensorics' subject.

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But how would all of this arsenic poisoning and stuff -essentially- relate to our mind-body link?
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Also, there were certain social aspects that determined the abusive treatment they gave to so-called "witches" in those times. Similar things happen in our times as well even if we like to think of ourselves as more advanced, both technologically and morally
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I pretty much abandoned physical causes as an "explanation" of the hard problem of cx
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lbrtchx

[equable]

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But how would all of this arsenic poisoning and stuff -essentially- relate to our mind-body link?
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Also, there were certain social aspects that determined the abusive treatment they gave to so-called "witches" in those times. Similar things happen in our times as well even if we like to think of ourselves as more advanced, both technologically and morally
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I pretty much abandoned physical causes as an "explanation" of the hard problem of cx
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lbrtchx

There are various studies on the subject, few openly analyze the case from the above mentioned point of view, it is hard to say why.

[Albretch Mueller]

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these linked videos obviously show that ants definitely use signs ...
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// __
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http://library.thinkquest.org/05aug/01006/ants.htm
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"Without a voice or ears, ants are capable of sending at least fifty messages through body language and pheromones."
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// __ Ants have Pets ??
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcAUa6e3x0s
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http://www.megavideo.com/?v=ZSIXYMHM&setlang=en
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if they are able to not only communicate among themselves, but also with other animlas which they care for and use as some kind of shepherds, and they in- and outwardly use body language and pheromones, which codes they combine (the stronger the odor the faster they run ...) these ants are intelligent!!!
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lbrtchx

[wan]

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these two links obviously show that ants use signs ...
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// __
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http://library.thinkquest.org/05aug/01006/ants.htm
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"Without a voice or ears, ants are capable of sending at least fifty messages through body language and pheromones."
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// __ Ants have Pets ??
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcAUa6e3x0s
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lbrtchx

Yes I know very well about ants keeping aphids. Pets!!!! These aphids are NOT "pets". They are farmed for honeydew. Yet the tending job is just like any other job the ants do and doesn't require any more communication than normal foraging jobs to distribute the jobs among the ants.

And about your thinkquest.org link... Is that your evidence? For real!!!! Look at this quote:

A worker ant who finds food will run back to the nest while touching the ground with its abdomen. This produces a chemical scent trail. When it reaches the nest, the excited ant will touch its fellow ants with its antennae which causes them to follow the trail leading to the food. After a while, a line of ants can be seen marching between the nest and the food.

Yes the scouts will leave a chemical trail for the foragers. So what evidence is there that the antenna touching has anything to do with telling the ants to follow the trail? Why would it even be necessary to tell an ant, with the 'job' of following chemical trails to collect food, to follow a trail? Isn't the trail itself enough to tell the ant about the food? The antenna touching merely tells the ants what job their doing, just like I explained.

They are also wrong about ants not having a voice of sorts. Some actually do vocalize. Yet it still fails to make your case. Do you have any idea what http://www.oraclefoundation.org/ is, or what its buisness model is? It's a 501(c )(3) acting as a PR firm for http://www.oracle.com/, hence the need for a teacher or school administrator to enroll as they represent a customer base, which you are not. You really really must do better than this. I don't expect detailed strict controls, but at least say something about how the claims were differentiated from alternative interpretation. Do those 50 body language and pheromones represent the entirety of all 20k+ ant species? That would be pretty sucky with over 20k species. This is PR crap some secretary pulled out of whatever source google served up. Even their reference list is full of dead and malformed URLs and commercial sites selling ants. Couldn't even spell .edu (.adu) in the url. It's almost as silly as "pets".

[Albretch Mueller]

They are farmed for honeydew ...

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From the point of view of a Theory of (ants') Minds there is a lot of stuff going on right there (as I see it)
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1) Ants do know the difference between themselves and aphids (extending the kind of division of labor they have among themselves). This could be actually checked if we were able to image their brains and study the specifics of the differences of the communication they have among themselves, among themselves talking about aphids and with aphids
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2) They have observed aphids' behaviors and somehow taken notice of not only their similarities, but also how they can have a functional symbiosis
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And about your thinkquest.org link... Is that your evidence? For real!!!! ...

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I haven't used these video feeds as a way to prove or extract conclusions about anything. They just show what I see as probably plausible examples of the level of intelligence in ants
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lbrtchx

[wan]

From the point of view of a Theory of (ants') Minds there is a lot of stuff going on right there (as I see it)

And "exactly" what stuff is that? What "exactly" is required to "know the difference between themselves and aphids". What "exactly" defines intelligence. What "exactly" defines communication. It it you who accused the speaker in the TED video of speaking poetically when the terms were "exactly" defined. Yet it it you who insist these things mean something more by making distinctions you have failed to provide any definitions for. Rather it seems you are insisting on poetic distinctions.

[Albretch Mueller]

... It it you who accused the speaker in the TED video of speaking poetically when the terms were "exactly" defined.

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I wonder what makes you say that I have "accused" TED speakers or anyone of anything. I just said my opinion and explicitly acticulated my point. Anyone with some education in Physics/Math would "exactly" see what I mean, again saying those metronomes were "communicating" is a "freedom of speech" kind of thing
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lbrtchx