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Hey Hey
post Feb 17, 2010, 06:47 AM
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I saw this article and thought once again someone is going to make money from sales of a book talking complete unproven crap. Well, as it turns out I still think that as the evidence is anecdotal and full of holes.

However, it got me thinking about the requirements, ambitions or prospects for an afterlife (for want of a better term) that is associated with an expanded consciousness or consciousness singularity. As in an EC or CS "absorbed" individual consciousnesses would survive in a sort of plethoric consciousness, then is that not a sort of afterlife. Or is it just ongoing life and am I just falling into the hands of the religious cranks (yes, in my opinion if you're religious you are a crank - look up the definition of a crank and then the statistics on religious belief in the educated world if you don't get it)?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,585955,00.html
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Rick
post Feb 17, 2010, 12:01 PM
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O'Reilley's a crank. He needs there to be a "just" god who punishes all who don't meet his mark. What, eternity in hell for a few moments lapse on Earth? Is that justice?
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post Feb 17, 2010, 01:04 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Feb 17, 2010, 03:01 PM) *
O'Reilley's a crank. He needs there to be a "just" god who punishes all who don't meet his mark. What, eternity in hell for a few moments lapse on Earth? Is that justice?
Crank. A mechanical device.
John Milton used it as a metaphor for: a turn of speech or thought or conceit: "Quips and Cranks and wanton Wiles."
A queer notion, act, whim, or caprice.
U.S. informal: a person with queer notions or habits. A person possessed by some idea, or hobby. A cross or ill-termpered person.
British dialect: weak; infirm or sickly. (Old English, cranc).
==========================================
In my opinion, there is no 'hereafter', or 'here-before': There is only the eternal NOW--Make what you will of it.

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Rick
post Feb 17, 2010, 04:01 PM
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QUOTE(Lindsay @ Feb 17, 2010, 01:04 PM) *
In my opinion, there is no 'hereafter', or 'here-before': There is only the eternal NOW--Make what you will of it.

I agree.
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Hey Hey
post Feb 17, 2010, 04:09 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Feb 18, 2010, 12:01 AM) *

QUOTE(Lindsay @ Feb 17, 2010, 01:04 PM) *
In my opinion, there is no 'hereafter', or 'here-before': There is only the eternal NOW--Make what you will of it.

I agree.
Generally this is what I like to hear, but you (pleural) have missed my point. If there ever is a consciousness singularity then there will be something like a combination of consciousnesses (sorry for all the s's) and that could persist - indefinitely. So in essence there could be an afterlife -body dies but consciousness persists. It would be nothing supernatural just naturally superior to the individual consciousnesses pre-singularity. I'm not sure if I'm getting this over well. Maybe when I've had some sleep!
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Rick
post Feb 17, 2010, 04:35 PM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Feb 17, 2010, 04:09 PM) *

QUOTE(Rick @ Feb 18, 2010, 12:01 AM) *

QUOTE(Lindsay @ Feb 17, 2010, 01:04 PM) *
In my opinion, there is no 'hereafter', or 'here-before': There is only the eternal NOW--Make what you will of it.

I agree.
Generally this is what I like to hear, but you (pleural) have missed my point. If there ever is a consciousness singularity then there will be something like a combination of consciousnesses (sorry for all the s's) and that could persist - indefinitely. So in essence there could be an afterlife -body dies but consciousness persists. It would be nothing supernatural just naturally superior to the individual consciousnesses pre-singularity. I'm not sure if I'm getting this over well. Maybe when I've had some sleep!

I don't believe it. There has never been any demonstration of blended consciousnesses. There has never been any consciousness without a living brain to support it.
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Hey Hey
post Feb 17, 2010, 04:40 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Feb 18, 2010, 12:35 AM) *

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Feb 17, 2010, 04:09 PM) *

QUOTE(Rick @ Feb 18, 2010, 12:01 AM) *

QUOTE(Lindsay @ Feb 17, 2010, 01:04 PM) *
In my opinion, there is no 'hereafter', or 'here-before': There is only the eternal NOW--Make what you will of it.

I agree.
Generally this is what I like to hear, but you (pleural) have missed my point. If there ever is a consciousness singularity then there will be something like a combination of consciousnesses (sorry for all the s's) and that could persist - indefinitely. So in essence there could be an afterlife -body dies but consciousness persists. It would be nothing supernatural just naturally superior to the individual consciousnesses pre-singularity. I'm not sure if I'm getting this over well. Maybe when I've had some sleep!

I don't believe it. There has never been any demonstration of blended consciousnesses. There has never been any consciousness without a living brain to support it.
You are not wrong. But Rick ... the forum ...

At the Consciousness Singularity, our consciousness will be expanded beyond the confines of an egocentric sense of self to include transpersonal experiences and transcendent self-identity. This new existence will be both a form of collective consciousness and a form of expanded individual consciousness. Shawn Mikula

http://www.brainmeta.com/index.php?p=consc...ess-singularity
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Rick
post Feb 17, 2010, 07:51 PM
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"...a hypothetical point of time in the future..."

As I said, I don't believe.
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post Feb 17, 2010, 08:45 PM
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well rick.... if it does exist you will know soon! Then again if it don't, maybe you won't!
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post Feb 17, 2010, 09:59 PM
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‘The future of civilisation depends on our overcoming the meaninglessness and hopelessness that characterizes the thoughts of men today.’
— Albert Schweitzer

Err! No pun intended!
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Rick
post Feb 18, 2010, 08:42 AM
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Why do people think that the absence of a magical afterlife implies meaninglessness in life?

Life is what you make it. That's meaningful and hopeful.
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post Feb 18, 2010, 08:47 AM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Feb 18, 2010, 08:42 AM) *

Life is what you make it

Exactly!
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post Feb 18, 2010, 08:49 AM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Feb 18, 2010, 04:42 PM) *

Why do people think that the absence of a magical afterlife implies meaninglessness in life?

Life is what you make it. That's meaningful and hopeful.

With reincarnation this is the afterlife, and then after this will be another afterlife.....
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Rick
post Feb 18, 2010, 08:56 AM
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Remembered past lives are a creative illusion. There is no reincarnation because there is no soul and no mechanism for soul assignment.
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post Feb 18, 2010, 09:48 AM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Feb 18, 2010, 04:56 PM) *

Remembered past lives are a creative illusion. There is no reincarnation because there is no soul and no mechanism for soul assignment.
Yes, but with consciousness, if there comes a singularity, that consciousnes would possibly survive. Else Shawns page on the CS is crap and our many discussions on the CS were wasted. I support his optimism though I only see a way forward through technological methods. Rather like telepathy through the use of organic-silicon interfacing with transmitters/receivers using EMR. So brain to brain communication but using quite conventional mechanisms. Organic-silicon connections are already established.
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post Feb 18, 2010, 09:54 AM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Feb 18, 2010, 04:56 PM) *

Remembered past lives are a creative illusion. There is no reincarnation because there is no soul and no mechanism for soul assignment.
Yes, but with consciousness, if there comes a singularity, that consciousnes would possibly survive. Else Shawns page on the CS is crap and our many discussions on the CS were wasted. I support his optimism though I only see a way forward through technological methods. Rather like telepathy through the use of organic-silicon interfacing with transmitters/receivers using EMR. So brain to brain communication but using quite conventional mechanisms. Organic-silicon connections are already established.
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Rick
post Feb 18, 2010, 12:16 PM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Feb 18, 2010, 09:54 AM) *

QUOTE(Rick @ Feb 18, 2010, 04:56 PM) *

Remembered past lives are a creative illusion. There is no reincarnation because there is no soul and no mechanism for soul assignment.
Yes, but with consciousness, if there comes a singularity, that consciousnes would possibly survive. Else Shawns page on the CS is crap and our many discussions on the CS were wasted. I support his optimism though I only see a way forward through technological methods. Rather like telepathy through the use of organic-silicon interfacing with transmitters/receivers using EMR. So brain to brain communication but using quite conventional mechanisms. Organic-silicon connections are already established.

It may very well be some form of dog doo, and time does get wasted. That's life. We can hope we learn to be more efficient in our conversations.
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post Feb 18, 2010, 02:07 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Feb 18, 2010, 08:16 PM) *

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Feb 18, 2010, 09:54 AM) *

QUOTE(Rick @ Feb 18, 2010, 04:56 PM) *

Remembered past lives are a creative illusion. There is no reincarnation because there is no soul and no mechanism for soul assignment.
Yes, but with consciousness, if there comes a singularity, that consciousnes would possibly survive. Else Shawns page on the CS is crap and our many discussions on the CS were wasted. I support his optimism though I only see a way forward through technological methods. Rather like telepathy through the use of organic-silicon interfacing with transmitters/receivers using EMR. So brain to brain communication but using quite conventional mechanisms. Organic-silicon connections are already established.

It may very well be some form of dog doo, and time does get wasted. That's life. We can hope we learn to be more efficient in our conversations.
Shawn, we need your input here.

In the meantime Rick, what are your views on ever being able to map an individual's consciousness and possibly uploading it to a computer (but not one based on windows of course unless there are trickcylists specialising in PCs). Some type of future super computer obviously.
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Rick
post Feb 18, 2010, 04:03 PM
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It may not be possible even in principle. It may be that the only computers that will ever be conscious are ones made of natural neurons.
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post Feb 23, 2010, 09:05 PM
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THE FOLLOWING WAS SENT TO ME BY A FRIEND. IT IS FROM NEXUS MAGAZINE.

==================================================================
Is the following based on any kind of science? Or is it just pseudo-science?

1. What exactly is 'The Zero Point Energy Field'?
The Field is the Zero Point Field, a subatomic field of unimaginably large quantum energy in so-called "empty space". It's absolutely everywhere. If you add up all the movement of all the particles of all varieties in the universe, you come up with a vast inexhaustible energy source all sitting there unobtrusively in the background of the empty space around us, like one all-pervasive, supercharged backdrop. To give you some idea of the magnitude of that power, the energy in a single cubic yard of 'empty' space is enough to boil all the oceans of the world.

The Field connects everything in the universe to everything else, like some vast invisible web. The papers published by these scientists written about in The Field show that the solid stable stuff we call matter is an illusion and is simply subatomic particles constantly moving and being gripped on by the background sea of energy. Everything in our world, no matter how heavy or large, boils down to a collection of electric charges interacting with the Zero Point Field. It's a bit like the Force in Star Wars. As quantum waves also encode information, it also as though, on the tiniest level of reality, a memory of the universe for all time is contained in empty space that each of us is always in touch with.

2. Why is the discovery of the Zero Point Field so significant?
Up until now, scientists have subtracted out this extra quantum energy because they felt it was not important. But a number of scientists, from top-ranking institutions such as Princeton and Stanford University in the US and many prestigious institutions in Europe, have realized that the Zero Point Field has enormous implications. Astrophysicists have called the ZPF a 'cosmic free lunch'. If successful in harnessing the limitless energy of so-called 'empty space', these scientists may be able to create anti-gravity WARP drives and create automobiles that run without fossil fuel. It might also open up the possibility that man may be able to travel beyond his own solar system. Perhaps more important, the existence of the Zero Point Field implies that all matter in the universe is interconnected by quantum waves, which are spread out through time and space, and can carry on to infinity, tying one part of the universe to every other part. The idea of The Field might just offer a scientific explanation for the spiritual beliefs of many religions that there is such a thing as a life force.

3. Are human beings made of this same basic material?
Human beings, on their most fundamental level, are packets of quantum energy constantly exchanging information with this heaving energy sea. The frontier scientists I interviewed have amassed evidence showing that living things emit a weak radiation, and that this may be one of the most crucial aspects of biological processes. A German physicist called Fritz-Albert Popp has discovered that humans emit highly coherent photons - the tiniest particles of light. One of the most essential sources of these are DNA, which may mean that DNA uses the wave frequencies of this 'light' to drive all the processes of the body. Other tests show that animals of the same species 'suck' up the light emitted from each other. This activity could explain the silent communication that occurs between animals, and why flocks of birds or schools of fish, for instance, are able to achieve incredible, instantaneous feats of synchronized movement.

4. Arthur C. Clarke, Bernie Siegel and Larry Dossey have all hailed The Field as providing a radical new view of the world. What sorts of controversies have been uncovered?

One discovery is that every molecule emits its own unique frequency, which is used for communication. French scientists have shown that you can record the frequency of a molecule, play it to another molecule and the signal itself can take the place of chemicals in initiating biological processes. The prevailing idea - that chemical reactions occur because chemicals collide with each other - has always been too dependent upon chance and requires a good deal of time. It cannot account for the speed of biological processes-like anger, joy, sadness or fear. Perhaps most controversial of all, the scientists working on the frontier have also discovered that the basic of all the brain's functions have to do with the interaction between the brain and the Zero Point field. New evidence shows the brain's conversations with the body might also occur on the quantum level, with waves and frequencies, rather with chemical or electrical impulses alone. In fact, studies in America on humans and animals show that the cerebral cortex responds to certain limited bands of frequencies.

As incredible as it seems, it appears that when we see things, we are reading information from the Zero Point Field on a quantum level and our brain 'reads out' this information to create the images we see in front of us. Some scientists have gone as far as to say that our memories don't sit inside our heads at all. Our brains are simply the retrieval and read-out mechanism of the ultimate storage medium - The Field.
=======================
http://www.metatones.com/?source=Google
http://www.calphysics.org/zpe.html
In the beginning G0D (note the zero), at work? http://www.zero-point-field.com/
History of 0-Zero Point Field: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy#History
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Lindsay
post Feb 25, 2010, 09:32 PM
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For information about
Treasure Island, West of St. Petersburg, Florida--an area visit.

Gulf Blvd, Treasure Island, FL, USA
http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=treasure+isla...ved=0CBAQ8gEwAA
Click on satellite view. We are on the wide beach just west of St. Petersburg.
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Rick
post Feb 26, 2010, 12:29 PM
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Never been to that part of Florida. Looks very interesting.
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GodConsciousness
post Feb 27, 2010, 08:05 AM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Feb 17, 2010, 07:35 PM) *

I don't believe it. There has never been any demonstration of blended consciousnesses. There has never been any consciousness without a living brain to support it.



While its not the most soothing to our ears, I tend to agree with Rick here- consciousness appears to need a material substrate or neurobiological structure to occur. While I remain open and hopeful for personal immortality after death, I have a hard time reconciling the idea rationally. A similar vein of thought runs through my ideas on God or some kind of transcendent mind. Such a mind would need a material structure or be based in physics in some form. And while the notion that God transcends normal categories of existence may apply, my feelings are that such an existence would nevertheless still need to be incorporated into a rational understanding of the universe.
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Hey Hey
post Mar 01, 2010, 08:12 AM
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QUOTE(GodConsciousness @ Feb 27, 2010, 04:05 PM) *

QUOTE(Rick @ Feb 17, 2010, 07:35 PM) *

I don't believe it. There has never been any demonstration of blended consciousnesses. There has never been any consciousness without a living brain to support it.



While its not the most soothing to our ears, I tend to agree with Rick here- consciousness appears to need a material substrate or neurobiological structure to occur. While I remain open and hopeful for personal immortality after death, I have a hard time reconciling the idea rationally. A similar vein of thought runs through my ideas on God or some kind of transcendent mind. Such a mind would need a material structure or be based in physics in some form. And while the notion that God transcends normal categories of existence may apply, my feelings are that such an existence would nevertheless still need to be incorporated into a rational understanding of the universe.
I wouldn't like my ramblings to suggest any connection with the idea of god! I was simply attempting to open a discussion about a possible connection of a consciousness survival within the idea of a consciousness singularity (that is proposed on the opening pages of the forum). If we are to give any credence to a consciousness singularity then wouldn't it potentially facilitate survival of an individual's consciousness after death? Neither is this proposing that consciousness could occur without a physical vessel or enabler. Using a little imagination one can envisage uploading a great deal of brain activity and memory into a computer (there are already practical examples of thought reading technologies - see elsewhere on the forum). Add this to the meanderings of many neuroscientists/artificial intelligence researchers who support the idea of future machine consciousness, and there you have the vessel(s). If the terminology 'afterlife' is off-putting, then OK I agree with that as its religious connotations are hazardous to a sensible discussion. So let's dispense with that term. A better point to argue, is whether consciousness without the organic vessel is still 'life'. Accepted definitions of life have a list of requirements most of which would not be met by consciousness alone.
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wan
post Mar 04, 2010, 10:58 PM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Mar 01, 2010, 11:12 AM) *
I wouldn't like my ramblings to suggest any connection with the idea of god! I was simply attempting to open a discussion about a possible connection of a consciousness survival within the idea of a consciousness singularity (that is proposed on the opening pages of the forum). If we are to give any credence to a consciousness singularity then wouldn't it potentially facilitate survival of an individual's consciousness after death?

The notion of a singularity seems to be slightly misunderstood. In Shawn's words:
QUOTE(Shawn @ Feb 20, 2003, 02:25 PM) *
There is no clear definition, but usually the Singularity is meant as a future time when societal, scientific and economic change is so fast we cannot even imagine what will happen from our present perspective, and when humanity will become posthumanity. Another definition of Singularity denotes the singular time when technological development will be at its fastest. Of course, there are some who think the whole idea is just technocalyptic dreaming.
There is actually some parallels that can be drawn between a cultural singularity and a black hole singularity. If you approached a black hole (large enough) you would never actually reach the event horizon, much less a singularity, because as you approached it your perception of time and distance becomes so stretched that it appears as though the event horizon shrinks away as you approach. A similar thing happens socially as we approach a point of singularity. Our understanding changes such that from an individual perspective the singularity recedes further into the future. Can you imagine someone prior to the enlightenment trying to comprehend the world we live in? During the enlightenment people would actually fist fight in bars over whether God existed in a vacuum or not. The prevailing wisdom was God was everywhere and nature abhors a vacuum. Reconciling a vacuum with Gods existence everywhere got people killed. If I told people as a kid what today would be like, I'd be in a nut house.

Another point about Moore's Law is that at finer scales it's not Moore's Law. It's a group of smaller short lived Moore's Law like vectors that stack and sum up to become Moore's Law when averaged over. Thus any given tech that appears to presently be growing under Moore's Law will reach a limit. Yet once averaged in to a greater range of technologies it's barely a blip on on the graph. The apparent steepness of a graph will turn almost flat when you zoom in on it close enough. Steepness is a purely relative concept on such graphs.

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Mar 01, 2010, 11:12 AM) *
Neither is this proposing that consciousness could occur without a physical vessel or enabler. Using a little imagination one can envisage uploading a great deal of brain activity and memory into a computer (there are already practical examples of thought reading technologies - see elsewhere on the forum). Add this to the meanderings of many neuroscientists/artificial intelligence researchers who support the idea of future machine consciousness, and there you have the vessel(s). If the terminology 'afterlife' is off-putting, then OK I agree with that as its religious connotations are hazardous to a sensible discussion. So let's dispense with that term. A better point to argue, is whether consciousness without the organic vessel is still 'life'. Accepted definitions of life have a list of requirements most of which would not be met by consciousness alone.
Here's where I see this singularity issue going, and I'll entertain this technological vessel in the process. The technology to replace remote controls and and other such devices with direct mind interface already exist. It's just a matter of efficiency to avoid embedding electrodes via an operation. Eventually we'll interact with the internet simply by thinking about what information we want to access, like an extension of our own brains. We could also envision this internet to have a global consciousness of its own. We would interact with this consciousness in much the same way religious people envision interacting with a god. Yet we are not so much uploaded into this mind. Rather we are nodes, like neurons, on this mind. The internet already uses 5% of the worlds electricity.

So what would this mean to our notion of a type of survival in this mind beyond our death? Well, we become a memory trace within this mind. Yet just like our own memories, these traces become subject to memory consolidation. After a number of these memory consolidations, your contribution to the mind may still exist in some form, but it no longer carries a specific identity. Just like you can no longer identify the source of the majority of information you hold in your mind. It becomes overlayed and entangled with related information that is no longer separable. It might be objectionable to claim this as a form of immortality. Yet, if you live long enough, that is exactly what the you that wishes to survive today will become to the you of the future, given enough time.
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GodConsciousness
post Mar 05, 2010, 06:02 AM
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QUOTE(wan @ Mar 05, 2010, 01:58 AM) *

So what would this mean to our notion of a type of survival in this mind beyond our death? Well, we become a memory trace within this mind. Yet just like our own memories, these traces become subject to memory consolidation. After a number of these memory consolidations, your contribution to the mind may still exist in some form, but it no longer carries a specific identity. Just like you can no longer identify the source of the majority of information you hold in your mind. It becomes overlayed and entangled with related information that is no longer separable. It might be objectionable to claim this as a form of immortality. Yet, if you live long enough, that is exactly what the you that wishes to survive today will become to the you of the future, given enough time.


This does not sound like much of an afterlife to me. If our individual consciousness simply melds into a wider consciousness after death or some time in the future, as it inevitably does to some extent in historicity, then it seems that identity will indeed be lost. Identity appears to be key here. The maintenance of identity and a personal consciousness of some sort appears requisite to an afterlife that can be experienced individually. Without the actual experience of consciousness, I am not sure what kind of afterlife we are really talking about.

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wan
post Mar 05, 2010, 12:11 PM
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Yes, I don't really consider it an afterlife either. The the so called melding is not even something that happens after death, but rather throughout life. It's more academic than a transferal of actual consciousness. Yet our own perception of the continuity of consciousness, like qualia, during life is as much illusion as anything.

Consider a star trek teleporter, then think about a teleporter that places two of you at the destination. Both of you then feels the same continuity of consciousness that you do. Only now both you's have the same desire to continue life as you do. In a very real sense there is no "copy", both of you are the originals of you. The concept that your consciousness has a singular identity that possesses an actual continuity of identity, like an existential object, is an illusion. Like a sound propagating through the air with a desire to continue propagating through that air.
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post Jan 31, 2011, 02:27 PM
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I'm sorry, who in here has 1% of the entire knowledge that exists in our known/unknown universe? No one. So how could anyone claim to know something about an afterlife or not or a Creator God for that matter if you have such limited knowledge of life and existence. Everything is pure speculation based on thoughts, including our current scientific hypothetical belief of evolution. Something from nothing cannot ever be recreated in a scientific laboratory and thus cannot be proven making it speculation and science fiction or better just another "cranky" religion, because you have to place your faith in something that cannot be proven. Science is solid, repeatable evidence that proves without a doubt. I'm sorry, but it's all religion.

I will say this, if you look at how amazing life is and how it is in a perfect balance, it makes it very plausible to believe there is a Creator God. I'm not going to force my "cranky" Christian beliefs down your throat, but I was an atheist and a scientist before Jesus found me. The current trend towards something from nothing, accumulating and then breathing just never made much sense no matter how far away from God I tried to run. Before you place your faith in something, make sure it makes total sense to you, not because a Creator would mean you may have to change for Him. I do not want to bash anyone and I know that this may come off as confrontational, but that is not my tone. I just want everyone to think and not be conformed to the worldy view of life. Maybe the "cranks" know what they are talking about. Besides if you don't even have 1% of all the knowledge that is out there, how can you make an assumption about the other 99%. God cannot be proven or disproven by anyone or any science. Science just shows His awesome handy-work.
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lucid_dream
post Jan 31, 2011, 02:42 PM
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QUOTE(Christsean @ Jan 31, 2011, 03:27 PM) *
Besides if you don't even have 1% of all the knowledge that is out there, how can you make an assumption about the other 99%.

the irony here is amazing (as in amazingly blatant).

there is a wide gap between rational explanation of the structures underlying our experience, and dogmatic belief in superstitions intended for social control and wish fulfillment. And there is nothing in common between religious and spiritual experience and the dogmas of religion. Do we need to believe in an afterlife to make life meaningful? Is it not enough to experience and know ourselves as part of something greater (which generally has nothing in common with anthropomorphic religious conceptions of god as creator separate from creation), to have a great purpose grab ahold of us throughout life, to look on the world with new eyes each day, realizing countless possibilities and bringing some to fruition within the framework of our capabilities, to know and experience ourselves as something far more precious, meaningful, and noble than anything that religious dogmatic beliefs can ever try to articulate?

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Christsean
post Feb 01, 2011, 03:51 AM
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We should definitely live our lives to the fullest extent of our abilities. Our temporal lives our very short and I believe we were created to enjoy this life and all that it has to offer. Religion for some is a ball and chain because it narrows the minds of its victims. Just like believing the world view that this is it. The existence of life is an absolute miracle, that it can exist in such harmony each day in such a perfect balance, is something that I find amazing. Each of us no matter how vile or how righteous are such beautiful creations. Life should be appreciated for what it is. The problem I have with religion and current world views of existence is that they are narrow minded and flawed. God can exist in the folds of the unknown especially in light of how intricate His creation is. We should never discount the existance of God or an afterlife just we don't have all the facts.
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