BrainMeta'   Connectomics'  

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Plant Intelligence: an Alternative Point of View, One never knows ....
Hey Hey
post Apr 20, 2009, 07:13 AM
Post #1


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 7766
Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Member No.: 845



Annals of Botany 93: 345-351, 2004
© 2004 Annals of Botany Company
Plant Intelligence: an Alternative Point of View

RICHARD FIRN*
Department of Biology, University of York, PO Box 373, York YO10 5YW, UK

* For correspondence. Fax 01904 328505, e-mail drf1@york.ac.uk

Received: 9 September 2003; Returned for revision: 24 October 2003; Accepted: 8 January 2003

The concept of plant intelligence has been advanced by Trewavas as a potentially useful framework to guide those seeking to understand plant growth and development. In this short critique, the validity of this concept is critically assessed. Central to this critique is the proposition that the concept of the individual, to which intelligence and behaviour are intimately linked, cannot usefully be applied to plants. It is argued that the adaptive responses of plants are best appreciated if the importance of the autonomy of the individual organs is acknowledged. Although Trewavas does acknowledge the autonomy of organs by describing an individual plant as being ‘a democratic confederation’, that terminology implies a complexity to the interaction between organs which would demand a cogitative ability beyond that actually demonstrated in plants. It may be more appropriate to consider a plant as operating normally as a simple economic federation of many specialized economies (organs and cells). Occasionally, there can be a dramatic, and sometimes complex, reshaping of the economic balances, with the result that the fate of some or many of the individual cells will change. However, such major changes in growth and development are driven by a few simple events in an individual organ and cells. These driving events are more akin to small local revolutions in individual states than they are to democratic decisions in a sophisticated confederation.

Key words: Phenotypic plasticity, adaptation, development, individuality, intelligence, plant behaviour.

The full paper is free at: http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/93/4/345
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
catseye
post Apr 20, 2009, 03:44 PM
Post #2


Awakening
***

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 223
Joined: Mar 12, 2009
Member No.: 31959



If you haven't already, I encourage you to read the book "The Secret Life of Plants" by Peter Tompkins. It was written in 1973 and has been a favorite of mine since I was a young lass. I wouldn't doubt it if his original research was (is) the basis of the ongoing research now.

"Recent experiment in communication with plants indicate, as Paracelsus and Mesmer foretold, that all living things - man, plants, earth, planets and stars - -are interconnected; what affects one affects them all." -Tompkins

smile.gif
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Rick
post Apr 20, 2009, 04:27 PM
Post #3


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 5916
Joined: Jul 23, 2004
From: Sunny Southern California
Member No.: 3068



Plants constantly make intelligent decisions. Just watch them and you will see.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Hey Hey
post Apr 20, 2009, 04:29 PM
Post #4


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 7766
Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Member No.: 845



Spike Milligan, BSc (failed)(narrowly)

Sorry, I don't know where that old chestnut came from, but it was down there somewhere, by whomever (!)
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
catseye
post Apr 20, 2009, 06:13 PM
Post #5


Awakening
***

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 223
Joined: Mar 12, 2009
Member No.: 31959



QUOTE(Rick @ Apr 20, 2009, 04:27 PM) *

Plants constantly make intelligent decisions. Just watch them and you will see.




In Tompkins book and Backsters research, it wasn't so much of the plants making decisions but that they "responded" .

Page 4 : "Backster's discovery that plants appear to be sentient caused strong and varied reaction round the globe, despite the fact that Backster never claimed a discover, only uncovering of what has been known and forgotten. Wisely he chose to avoid publicity and concentrated on establishing the absolute scientific bona fides of what has come to be known as the "Backster Effect". The adventure started in 1966. Backster had been up all night in his school for polygraph examiner, where he teaches the art of lie detection to policemen and security agents from around the world. On impulse he decided to attach the electrodes of one of his lie detectors to the leaf of his dracaena.

Page 5

The most effective way to trigger in a human being a reaction strong enough to make the galvanometer jump is to threaten his or her wellbeing. Backster decided to do just that to the plant: he dunked a leaf of the dracaena in the cup of hot coffee perennially in his hand. there was no reaction to speak of on the meter. Backster studied the problem several minutes, then conceived a worse threat: he would burn the actual leaf to which the electrodes were attached. The instant he got the picture of flame in his mind, and before he could move for a match there was a dramatic change in the tracing pattern on the graph in the form of a prolonged upward sweep of the recording pen. When Backster left the room and returned with some matches, he found another sudden surge had registered on the chart, evidently caused by his determination to carry out the threat.
--------------

This was the first of many experiments that Backster engaged in. I don't think that plants make complex decisions as much as a dog does, but the experiments were worthy of investigation.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
trojan_libido
post Apr 21, 2009, 01:34 AM
Post #6


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sep 19, 2006
From: UK
Member No.: 5681



I thought a polygraphy measured the changes in conductivity of the skin. Sweat causes this electrical conductivity to change, and the readings combined with the pulse and heart beat, change with it. Thats my understanding, and I've hardly any understanding of a plants chemistry, but I'm pretty sure plants dont sweat when they feel threatened. I'm also pretty sure they can't pickup on our intentions through the aether either. If they did then weeds wouldn't grow in places they knew would be walked upon, and plants would have evolved marvelous triffid like abilities to uproot and go elsewhere.

However, I do believe that plant life is sentient in the same deterministic way that we are, only on different physical levels. Physics is now stating that all things are interconnected. There was a recent article in New Scientist or Focus about how Darwins 'Tree of Life' isn't really a tree. Traits can be passed horizontally through the tree, not just upwards through procreation, so now its the 'Web of Life' which is just what the physicists mean. The boundaries of things (including animals, plants, weather, colours) are created entirely by us to utilise descriptive language.

But I also believe the Earth to be called Gaia and wear flowers in her hair smile.gif
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
catseye
post Apr 21, 2009, 05:24 AM
Post #7


Awakening
***

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 223
Joined: Mar 12, 2009
Member No.: 31959



QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Apr 21, 2009, 01:34 AM) *

I thought a polygraphy measured the changes in conductivity of the skin. Sweat causes this electrical conductivity to change, and the readings combined with the pulse and heart beat, change with it. Thats my understanding, and I've hardly any understanding of a plants chemistry, but I'm pretty sure plants dont sweat when they feel threatened. I'm also pretty sure they can't pickup on our intentions through the aether either. If they did then weeds wouldn't grow in places they knew would be walked upon, and plants would have evolved marvelous triffid like abilities to uproot and go elsewhere.

However, I do believe that plant life is sentient in the same deterministic way that we are, only on different physical levels. Physics is now stating that all things are interconnected. There was a recent article in New Scientist or Focus about how Darwins 'Tree of Life' isn't really a tree. Traits can be passed horizontally through the tree, not just upwards through procreation, so now its the 'Web of Life' which is just what the physicists mean. The boundaries of things (including animals, plants, weather, colours) are created entirely by us to utilise descriptive language.

But I also believe the Earth to be called Gaia and wear flowers in her hair smile.gif



Back then...? Of which I'm guessing that it may now be different (advanced). They used a Galvanometer- he states in the book -pg 4:

" A galvanometer is that part of a polygraph lie detector which when attached to a human being by wires through which a weak current of electricity is run, will cause a needle to move, or a pen to make a tracing on the moving graph of paper, in response to mental images or the slightest surges of human emotion. Invented at the end of the eighteenth century by Viennese priest, Father Maazimilian Helll, S. J. , it was named after Luigi Galvani, the Italian Physicist and Physiologist who discovered "animal electricity"
The galvanometer is now used in conjunction with an electrical circuit called a "Wheatstone bridge" "

"The dracaena is a tropical plant similar to a palm tree with large leaves and a dense cluster of small flowers; it is known as the dragon tree because of the popular myth that its resin yields dragon blood. Backster was curious to see if the leaf would be affected by water poured on it roots, and if so, how, and how soon. As the plant thirstily sucked water up its stem, the galvanometer did not indicate less resistance, as might have been expected by the greater electrical conductivity of the moister plant. The pen on the graph paper, instead of trending upward, was trending downward, with a lot of sawtooth motion on the tracing."

The experiments were expanded to include Marcel Vogel and Eldon Byrd with countless others. The book really is a fascinating read ! IBM laboratories were also involved. The main experiments involved setting up electrodes of some sort that conducted the plants electricity to move a toy train and others that allows the scientist to hear the sounds emanating from the plants - apparently they sing all the day !
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Rick
post Apr 21, 2009, 07:37 AM
Post #8


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 5916
Joined: Jul 23, 2004
From: Sunny Southern California
Member No.: 3068



There is a plant, a weed common in Hawaii, called the "sensitive plant," mimosa pudica. It grows in sun or shade and infests lawns. When it is touched, it folds up and droops down. In a lawn, it will stick up out of the grass to get sun, but when the lawnmower comes close, it droops down below the grass and survives the mowing that way.

This plant is so interesting that I was growing one in a pot at my house. It was growing well and I wanted to prune it. I had a scissor in my hand and just as I formed the mental image of where I wanted to cut the stem, the stem folded up and drooped down, just as if it were aware of my thoughts. I don't know of any physical mechanism that will explain what I observed, so I might conclude that it was purely coincidental, but I really don't know.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
trojan_libido
post Apr 21, 2009, 07:50 AM
Post #9


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sep 19, 2006
From: UK
Member No.: 5681



These type of experiments I have to take with a pinch of salt. It'd make bigger ripples in the mainstream if it were true. I may be wrong, but I just don't trust an instrument that Scientology has misused as science. All its measuring is resistance, and that can be effected by a whole lot of things, least of all wishful thinking.

Can you explain how a plant can sing? I know everything can make a sound, and that a plant growing even has a sound associated with it...but singing? The Sun seems to sing with the magnetic fields osscilating, in fact planets also seem to have their own internal 'tones', but I can't see a flower singing all day and it not making news and huge cultural changes.

I'd still laugh so hard if vegetarians had been eating billions of sentient plants all along.

Plants do regularly have compounds within them associated with profound brain chemistry, and some people believe these plants to have spirits. This I can believe it, because we're all a part of the same Universe and its arisen out of an apparently 'lifeless' process.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Rick
post Apr 21, 2009, 07:54 AM
Post #10


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 5916
Joined: Jul 23, 2004
From: Sunny Southern California
Member No.: 3068



Some people refuse to eat animals for ethical reasons. Perhaps we should consider not eating plants.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
trojan_libido
post Apr 21, 2009, 07:56 AM
Post #11


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sep 19, 2006
From: UK
Member No.: 5681



QUOTE(Rick @ Apr 21, 2009, 04:37 PM) *
This plant is so interesting that I was growing one in a pot at my house. It was growing well and I wanted to prune it. I had a scissor in my hand and just as I formed the mental image of where I wanted to cut the stem, the stem folded up and drooped down, just as if it were aware of my thoughts. I don't know of any physical mechanism that will explain what I observed, so I might conclude that it was purely coincidental, but I really don't know.
I know plants can be sensitive to touch and such, but thats a known mechanism. The carniverous plants are an example I'm thinking of. But I'm surprised an inquisitive mind like yours didn't try some experiments! I think you must have thought it coincidence otherwise you'd be blowing the lid off this secret smile.gif
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Hey Hey
post Apr 21, 2009, 09:39 AM
Post #12


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 7766
Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Member No.: 845



QUOTE(Rick @ Apr 21, 2009, 04:37 PM) *
I had a scissor in my hand and just as I formed the mental image of where I wanted to cut the stem, the stem folded up and drooped down, just as if it were aware of my thoughts. I don't know of any physical mechanism that will explain what I observed, so I might conclude that it was purely coincidental, but I really don't know.
Could god have stepped in to save the plant's life? (Sorry, nearly p****ed my pants - must be the prostate!)
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Rick
post Apr 21, 2009, 10:40 AM
Post #13


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 5916
Joined: Jul 23, 2004
From: Sunny Southern California
Member No.: 3068



QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Apr 21, 2009, 08:56 AM) *
... didn't try some experiments! ...

I was never to get it to repeat. I once flipped a coin and had it come up heads ten times in a row, but I can't repeat that either. I was taking a course in probability, and at the first class the professor asked us to go home and flip a coin ten times and write down the result. I was in the zone, and could see a golden trail off the coin as I tossed it, a silver dime. The professor didn't believe me. I ended up with a C for the course.

Another time I walked to the tennis courts to hit balls against the backstop. I had three new Wilson sixes in a metal can. I was relatively poor and new balls were expensive. Two women were at the courts hitting balls, and I joined them for some informal play. My balls were newer than theirs so we used them. One of them hit one of my balls over the fence into the weeds. We looked for it and couldn't find it. I walked back to the house with the two balls klunking in my can due to the space of the missing one. I opened the door with my key and there smack in the middle of the coffee table was the missing Wilson six.

So you see, a golden meteorite in my back yard is in the realm of possibility.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
catseye
post Apr 21, 2009, 10:41 AM
Post #14


Awakening
***

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 223
Joined: Mar 12, 2009
Member No.: 31959



QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Apr 21, 2009, 07:50 AM) *

These type of experiments I have to take with a pinch of salt. It'd make bigger ripples in the mainstream if it were true. I may be wrong, but I just don't trust an instrument that Scientology has misused as science. All its measuring is resistance, and that can be effected by a whole lot of things, least of all wishful thinking.

Can you explain how a plant can sing? I know everything can make a sound, and that a plant growing even has a sound associated with it...but singing? The Sun seems to sing with the magnetic fields osscilating, in fact planets also seem to have their own internal 'tones', but I can't see a flower singing all day and it not making news and huge cultural changes.

I'd still laugh so hard if vegetarians had been eating billions of sentient plants all along.

Plants do regularly have compounds within them associated with profound brain chemistry, and some people believe these plants to have spirits. This I can believe it, because we're all a part of the same Universe and its arisen out of an apparently 'lifeless' process.



Scientology ??? Where'd ya get that from? those people are sick. The book I refer to is not from Scientology.
I encourage you to check your local library and give it a read. They explain all the details therein. (please...I'm just not apt to write the whole book here, as it is close to 400 pgs)

They did use mimosas in some of the experiments !

With the vegetarians that feel adamant about eating life forms, I'd get a laugh too. I have chosen to refrain from eating meat from the grocery stores and now go to the cattle, pig and dairy ranches to buy locally. With me it's a energy thing. If the beasty is mistreated, tortured, stressed and living unhealthy, I won't eat it. I believe that what it feels (experiences) goes right to the molecular level and hence becomes what I consume.
Happy cows only smile.gif

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Rick
post Apr 21, 2009, 10:56 AM
Post #15


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 5916
Joined: Jul 23, 2004
From: Sunny Southern California
Member No.: 3068



I read the book too, I bought it when it first came out in hard cover. In the science fiction spoof Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy trilogy by Douglas Adams, occurs a scene in which a domesticated animal, bred for the table, takes offense if people don't want to eat him. They are very happy to be chosen for dinner. I think it occurs in the fourth book of the increasingly inaccurately named trilogy, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
trojan_libido
post Apr 22, 2009, 12:06 AM
Post #16


God
******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sep 19, 2006
From: UK
Member No.: 5681



The Scientology comment was down to the fact that the last time I heard claims of what a 'galvanometer' is capable of, it came from that camp...

I'm not discounting the book, but plants having feelings or even being able to detect our emotions would cause a massive stir that I just didn't witness. You have to ask yourself what the impact would be if it were true, and also find the same results in more reputable literature.

I told my girlfriend that I once recorded a carrot while I chopped it up, and when amplified you could here it scream. She actually bought into it for a while until I almost wet myself laughing at the fear in her face. "Really? Oh my God! The poor things!" biggrin.gif
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
catseye
post Apr 22, 2009, 06:51 AM
Post #17


Awakening
***

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 223
Joined: Mar 12, 2009
Member No.: 31959



QUOTE
trojan_libido' date='Apr 22, 2009, 12:06 AM' post='100709']
The Scientology comment was down to the fact that the last time I heard claims of what a 'galvanometer' is capable of, it came from that camp...



oh yeah that thing they have, whats it called....auditor, that's it...yep... creepy. What really worries me about them is their "army" They sent their mailings to us on a basis of 4 or 5 times a week. One mailing I think was a mistake as they sent us their monthly newsletter. The arsenal they have at their command was about a large as the Israeli military. Tanks, airplanes, and personal.

QUOTE
I'm not discounting the book, but plants having feelings or even being able to detect our emotions would cause a massive stir that I just didn't witness. You have to ask yourself what the impact would be if it were true, and also find the same results in more reputable literature.


I think it would be a huge impact ! could it be also the reason why it was pushed under the rug so much?

QUOTE
I told my girlfriend that I once recorded a carrot while I chopped it up, and when amplified you could here it scream. She actually bought into it for a while until I almost wet myself laughing at the fear in her face. "Really? Oh my God! The poor things!" biggrin.gif


Hysterical ! literally.. In the book it stated that when live lobsters were put in the boiling pot, the sensors that recorded their sound became a screech instead of the low and pleasant hum.
All said, I agree with taking a grain of salt with many of these things, but my own experiments proved, at least to me, that some of this stuff is valid.
I also agree with George Carlin..."never put a plant in the bathroom" laugh.gif

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Hey Hey
post Apr 23, 2009, 11:15 AM
Post #18


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 7766
Joined: Dec 31, 2003
Member No.: 845



I never knew that ants had faces until I saw Antz. Now I try not step on them as I'd feel terrible if they looked up at me with sad eyes ....
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Rick
post Apr 23, 2009, 03:03 PM
Post #19


Supreme God
*******

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 5916
Joined: Jul 23, 2004
From: Sunny Southern California
Member No.: 3068



I killed two spiders in my house today. Although the spiders sometimes help to control the ants, it didn't bother me a bit. Spiders belong outside, but I kill black widows in my yard on sight. I never let one escape, once sighted.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
turboracetam
post Sep 02, 2012, 05:57 AM
Post #20


Newbie
*

Group: Basic Member
Posts: 20
Joined: Aug 27, 2012
Member No.: 34473



Plants cant make any decisions.. but yeah they can feel pain.. its proved by science..
they even cry and feel sad/happy at certain times...
but saying that they can make decisions is a very stupid thing to say lol
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 20th November 2017 - 01:24 AM


Home     |     About     |    Research     |    Forum     |    Feedback  


Copyright BrainMeta. All rights reserved.
Terms of Use  |  Last Modified Tue Jan 17 2006 12:39 am

Consciousness Expansion · Brain Mapping · Neural Circuits · Connectomics  ·  Neuroscience Forum  ·  Brain Maps Blog
 · Connectomics · Connectomics  ·  shawn mikula  ·  shawn mikula  ·  articles