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> Piracetam+Centrophenoxine+vinpocetine+huperzine+picmilon+supplements Good regieme, too much?, Been experimenting for about a month. Input would be appreciated
Nuclear Biscuit
post Apr 11, 2009, 04:54 AM
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Background: 26yo female, weighs about 57kg, no major physical health problems. History of severe depressive illness both during childhood and adulthood. It gets bad about every 2-3 years. Chronic anxiety and difficulty relating to people, quite severe dyscalculia.

My goal was to try to get myself out of a depressive phase, help my anxiety and regain the focus needed to complete my PhD thesis. I needed to achieve this within a month or so or I'd have had to drop out. I have tried and failed to get help from my doctor. Spent nearly a year getting pushed from psychiatrist to psychiatrist, got some completely useless counseling and therapy and a prescription for citalopram. I despised talking to the psychs and am exceptionally wary of taking SSRIs. I have known many people who've been on them and all but one had some pretty nasty side effects. None found them particularly helpful, and I haven't found the available scientific literature to be all that encouraging either.

I was researching neurotransmitter precursors when I stumbled upon piracetam. Spent a couple of weeks reading up on it before I gave it a go. I had already analysed my diet and tried to change it for the better (I cook all my own food now from scratch using fresh ingredients now). I was taking selenium, iodine (kelp tablets), vitamin D, L-tyrosine and 5-HTP and fish oil prior to starting on the nootropics. A few days after I started the kelp tablets I felt a bit better, (I think I may have been a little deficient in iodine). L-tyrosine diminished my anxiety quite a bit when I started taking it. Seriously, I felt it coming on like a drug the first time I took it! It didn't do much to stabalise my mood though and the anxiety did return, although I don't think it's been quite so bad.

Piracetam

Piracetam alone had an effect but wasn't all that great. Tried 3 doses of 1.6g a day for a week. Noticed a slight increase in focus but by the end of the second day I was getting classic symptoms of acetylcholine deficiency. I had an egg and that seemed to stop it. Spent the rest of the week taking lecithin caps (2x1.2g) 3 times a day along with the piracetam. This prevented the headaches/stiff neck but I didn't notice much cognitive improvement. I think my memory may have been a little better by the end of the week. I got some choline bitartrate and tried that instead of the lecithin for four days. Again, not much difference. Maybe if I'd had the time to try either of these combos for a longer period of time the results would have been better.

Piracetam + Centrophenoxine

First day I tried this I noticed a definite increase in memory and focus. Before I started taking nootropics my concentration was so bad I wasn't able to get more than about a paragraph of writing a day done (I'm meant to be writing up my thesis). My memory was so bad I'd look at a paper and forget what I was going to write about it when I glanced back at my thesis. On this combo I was able to get through maybe 3-4 paragraphs a day. Although I'm still nowhere near normal in this regard, my ability to perform mental arithmetic improved and has continued to do so. Given enough time I can now work out how much of a restaurant bill I owe, and although I still can't do my times tables I can usually work out simple multiplications by breaking the numbers down to simpler sums (e.g. 8*6 => 2*6*2*2). It's handy not to have to use a calculator for everything. I found my general functioning outside work was better too- I was forgetting things a lot less. Also, from the second day onward I definitely had more energy. I didn't feel "high", jittery or have trouble sleeping like I have when I've tried caffeine pills, but it was easier to get out of bed in the morning and I felt more awake the entire day. I'm now able to go walking for an hour without feeling knackered for the rest of the day, and I now do this 2-3 times a week.

Vinpocetine+ Huperzine A

Added these at the beginning of the third week. I'm taking 20 mg vinpocetine and 100mcg Huperzine A in the morning and mid- late afternoon (4pm). One side effect I noticed initially was 1 1/2- 2 hours after taking these the lining of my nose would feel very sensitive and tingly. This effect has diminished now but I do think my sense of smell has heightened. I notice things like perfume and pollution that I was oblivious to beforehand. Cognitively there have definitely been some improvements in mental stamina and memory, although the changes have not been as dramatic as when I started on the piracetam and centrophenoxine. My focus has continued to improve and my output currently stands at about 2 A4 pages of text a day. The best average I have managed in the past was 4, so there's still room for improvement, but I'm getting there.

Picamilon

Unfortunately none of the four nootropics I've been on have seemed to do all that much for my anxiety and I've had 3 2-3 day periods where my mood has crashed severely. I decided to try picamilon as I wanted an anxiolytic that wouldn't dull my mind or make me drowsy. I'm taking 50mg 3 times a day between meals and have been taking it for 3 days. So far the results have been remarkable and I really hope they persist. The general feeling of unease and constant worrying I usually have seems to be gone. I still feel concerned about some things but I'm able to stop thinking about them or think through them rationally. There haven't been many times I can remember when this has been the case. Situations that would normally make me feel very nervous, such as trying to get through a crowd, now don't. I have yet to see if this drug will help me with my work, in social situations or in very severely stressful situations. I have noticed no side effects whatsoever so far. Apart from the lack of anxiety it doesn't seem to have any other effects, which is brilliant.

Current Stack

Morning

2 tbsp ground flax seed
100mcg selenium (sodium selenate, tab also contains 400mcg vitamin A, 30mcg Vitamin C and 5mg vitamin E)
150mcg iodine (kelp extract)
600mg high strength brewers yeast
1200mg lecithin
1000mg L-Tyrosine
1000mg Fish oil concentrate (180mgEPA, 120mg DHA)

1600mg Piracetam
250mg Centrophenoxine
20mg vinpocetine
200mcg Huperzine A
(later) 50mg Picamilon

Noon

100mg alpha lipoic acid
1200mg lecithin
1000mg L-Tyrosine
1000mg Fish oil concentrate (180mgEPA, 120mg DHA)
1 B vitamin complex tab (half the recommended dose)

1600mg Piracetam
250mg Centrophenoxine
(later) 50mg Picamilon

Mid-late afternoon

100mcg selenium (sodium selenate, tab also contains 400mcg vitamin A, 30mcg Vitamin C and 5mg vitamin E)
150mcg iodine (kelp extract)
600mg high strength brewers yeast
1200mg lecithin
1000mg L-Tyrosine
1000mg Fish oil concentrate (180mgEPA, 120mg DHA)

1600mg Piracetam
250mg Centrophenoxine
20mg vinpocetine
200mcg Huperzine A
(later) 50mg Picamilon

Before Bed

1200mg Lecithin
1000mg Fish oil concentrate (180mgEPA, 120mg DHA)
1 B vitamin complex tab (half the recommended dose)
100mg alpha lipoic acid
100mg 5-HTP
25mcg vitamin D

I continued the lecithin as it's a great source of various phospholipids and fatty acids, contains inositol, which is a natural anxiolytic, although judging by the amounts I've seen used for this purpose in clinical trials I think the dose I take is really too low for it to have this effect. It's also a natural emulsifier. I hope to use it to increase fish oil and fat absorption. I had my gallbladder removed a few years ago thanks to gallstones and developed psoriasis at about the same time. Whether the two are connected or not I don't know, but I have noticed in the past that taking large doses of fish oil has helped it before, so I think it's worth a shot taking the lecithin to try to improve absorption and seeing if it helps the psoriasis. I've also found I've shed about 3-4 kg since I started this stack and don't particularly want to keep losing weight Off topic for this forum I know.

My main concern about my stack is the fact that vinpocetine and picamilon are vasodialators and fish oil and piracetam are blood thinners. I have no problems with high blood pressure (it's actually pretty low). Maybe I'm being a little overcautious, but I'm still researching the long term effects of these compounds and their impact on stroke risk. I'm also considering trying a low dose of deprenyl (1.25mg/day or every other day) as a nootropic and an antidepressant, and possibly tineptine (Stablon) as an emergency measure if/when I have another depressive episode. If anyone has any advice about these compounds or experiences they'd like to share and discuss I'd be very interested in continuing this thread.

Thanks for reading smile.gif
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nate
post Sep 17, 2009, 09:59 PM
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thanks for sharing your experiences. that's very interesting about the Picamilon. i'm dealing with similar anxities you seem to, and could use something which gives the effects you just described. Q: does tolerance build? is it something you can safely and sustainably use daily? basically, is it more like piracetam/ginkgo is this regard or more like modifinl (sp)?
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pwr1537
post Nov 19, 2009, 10:38 AM
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Have you tried S-adenosylmethionine (SAMe) as an antidepressant? I have found it very effective
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