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> Is dark matter the essence of gravity?
Rick
post Mar 30, 2009, 12:48 PM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Mar 30, 2009, 01:41 PM) *
Is mass the only thing that causes spacetime to curve?

Yes, according to General Relativity. Special Relativity allows contraction in the direction of motion of relativistic objects, but I don't think that counts as spacetime curvature.
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Hey Hey
post Mar 30, 2009, 12:51 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 30, 2009, 09:48 PM) *

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Mar 30, 2009, 01:41 PM) *
Is mass the only thing that causes spacetime to curve?

Yes, according to General Relativity. Special Relativity allows contraction in the direction of motion of relativistic objects, but I don't think that counts as spacetime curvature.
General relativity says that energy also does. I also saw this quote, "Empty space is allergic to any nearby field of matter or energy. It curves in response."
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post Mar 30, 2009, 12:53 PM
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And also, the gravitational constant is not predicted by GR. So there is something lacking there, although in practice it can be measured of course.
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post Mar 30, 2009, 12:56 PM
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On the larger (eg than local galactic) scales gravity does not hold wrt creation by matter. Therefore either GR is inept or there is something we don't 'see' - the latter of course could DM, which might not be matter. Indeed it might not be related to matter at all. We just don't know. And what about higher dimensional origins or abstraction of 'gravity', which could explain its weakness? Einstein had no comments on those really.
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post Mar 30, 2009, 01:02 PM
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I asked about what space is elsewhere and no satisfactory answer came, as I predicted. Someone said it is nothing, implying absolutely nothing. I don't know how spacetime differs from space and time (who does?) but it seems strange that spacetime, one component of which is nothing, becomes curved by matter. Actually, the more physics explores, the more the latter tends to nothing too.
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Rick
post Mar 30, 2009, 01:02 PM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Mar 30, 2009, 01:53 PM) *
And also, the gravitational constant is not predicted by GR. So there is something lacking there, although in practice it can be measured of course.

I think you meant to refer to the cosmological constant, what Einstein referred to as his greatest mistake.

On mass-energy equivalence, it goes without saying. That's part of General Relativity. That's why creating (more properly, concentrating) a lot of energy in a tiny space (as in the CERN LHC) could cause a black hole to be formed.
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post Mar 30, 2009, 01:13 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 30, 2009, 10:02 PM) *

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Mar 30, 2009, 01:53 PM) *
And also, the gravitational constant is not predicted by GR. So there is something lacking there, although in practice it can be measured of course.

I think you meant to refer to the cosmological constant, what Einstein referred to as his greatest mistake.

On mass-energy equivalence, it goes without saying. That's part of General Relativity. That's why creating (more properly, concentrating) a lot of energy in a tiny space (as in the CERN LHC) could cause a black hole to be formed.
I was shown that the gravitational constant is not predicted by GR but has to be derived from experimental methods (inaccurately still) and there is no real explanation of how gravity arises in GR. Without a true understanding of what space is, the statement 'curved spacetime' is no explanation of what gravity is.
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Rick
post Mar 30, 2009, 01:22 PM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Mar 30, 2009, 02:13 PM) *
... the gravitational constant is not predicted by GR but has to be derived from experimental methods (inaccurately still) and there is no real explanation of how gravity arises in GR. Without a true understanding of what space is, the statement 'curved spacetime' is no explanation of what gravity is.

That's true of all the physical constants. In addition, there is no theory for how matter works: that is, if I give a physicist a number of protons, he has no formula for computing, say, the melting point.

Regarding GR, and the layman's explanation "curved space," I think one needs to refer to the mathematics of the theory for an understanding. The observed reality is that light from distant stars curves around the sun significantly if it passes near enough to it.
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post Mar 30, 2009, 01:30 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 30, 2009, 10:22 PM) *

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Mar 30, 2009, 02:13 PM) *
... the gravitational constant is not predicted by GR but has to be derived from experimental methods (inaccurately still) and there is no real explanation of how gravity arises in GR. Without a true understanding of what space is, the statement 'curved spacetime' is no explanation of what gravity is.

That's true of all the physical constants. In addition, there is no theory for how matter works: that is, if I give a physicist a number of protons, he has no formula for computing, say, the melting point.

Regarding GR, and the layman's explanation "curved space," I think one needs to refer to the mathematics of the theory for an understanding. The observed reality is that light from distant stars curves around the sun significantly if it passes near enough to it.
Interesting how matter (in the star) affects energy (light [with no mass]) in that instance, whereas we tend to think (intuitively) of matter-matter interactions wrt gravity.
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post Mar 30, 2009, 01:31 PM
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I really need to know what space is! It's getting in the way of my understanding of all of this stuff!
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Rick
post Mar 30, 2009, 03:19 PM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Mar 30, 2009, 02:31 PM) *

I really need to know what space is! It's getting in the way of my understanding of all of this stuff!

I don't think that space is anything at all (contrary to the conventional theories). I kind of like the philosophy of Leibniz ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_Leibniz ), in which space is not a thing (as Newton claimed), but is a result of relationships between objects.

I have already shown in other threads that time is not a dimension. It may be that space is not a thing, but is (like time) a computational convenience so that we can have a reference system for thinking about relationships among objects. Space and time are then ideas only, which does not necessarily contradict Einstein's theories.
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lokum
post Mar 30, 2009, 05:55 PM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Mar 24, 2009, 12:36 PM) *

QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 24, 2009, 06:44 PM) *

Dark matter is supposed to interact only through gravitation, and have no electro-magnetic or strong or weak force component. With nothing to push outward on it the way normal matter does (light pressure, etc.), dark matter, if it exists, should have all collapsed into black holes long ago. That's not what we observe, so I question the existence of dark matter.
At what velocity is the universe expanding (say, now)? Could other universes be causing the expansion of our universe?


Sounds like a hard sci-fi book by Greg Egan I read called "Schild's Ladder". In the future, the universe meets an expanding vacuum named the novo-vacuum that began to 'eat' into our universe. All of civilization is split into three parts: those who want to let the vacuum take over, those who want to keep traveling to the other end of universe to escape it or try to fight it, or those who just don't care. The book is told from the perspective of a scientist who actually ends up going into the vacuum to try and stop it, but he ends up discovering a new type of life being created inside. I don't remember much else.

It was pretty hard hard sci-fi : )
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catseye
post Mar 31, 2009, 04:54 AM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 30, 2009, 03:19 PM) *

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Mar 30, 2009, 02:31 PM) *

I really need to know what space is! It's getting in the way of my understanding of all of this stuff!

I don't think that space is anything at all (contrary to the conventional theories). I kind of like the philosophy of Leibniz ( , in which space is not a thing (as Newton claimed), but is a result of relationships between objects.

I have already shown in other threads that time is not a dimension. It may be that space is not a thing, but is (like time) a computational convenience so that we can have a reference system for thinking about relationships among objects. Space and time are then ideas only, which does not necessarily contradict Einstein's theories.




First, I want to say thanks for all the brainstorming you guys are doing ! It's a educational joy to read.

Rick, I want so much to agree with that theory but I keep coming back to the same thought that if empty space is a result of other objects then wouldn't it also mean that the formations of galaxies would remain as a constant as well? But they don't. As we see in that famous picture of the mass of galaxies they all turn this way and that. Some are (by our eyes in the pic) up, some are side to side and others at different angles in between. If empty space has "no effect" and is just a place between than why do the galaxies form at(in) different angles?
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Rick
post Mar 31, 2009, 07:47 AM
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QUOTE(catseye @ Mar 31, 2009, 05:54 AM) *
... If empty space has "no effect" and is just a place between than why do the galaxies form at(in) different angles?

It's because of the initial random distribution of matter. As a local cloud gravitationally collapses, it has a net angular momentum in some random orientation.
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Hey Hey
post Mar 31, 2009, 01:28 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 31, 2009, 04:47 PM) *

QUOTE(catseye @ Mar 31, 2009, 05:54 AM) *
... If empty space has "no effect" and is just a place between than why do the galaxies form at(in) different angles?

It's because of the initial random distribution of matter. As a local cloud gravitationally collapses, it has a net angular momentum in some random orientation.
empty space is as vacuum. how is matter or light different from empty space?

(btw, it was nice to refresh on the old stuff: http://discovermagazine.com/1992/mar/vacuummatters9 and re-read the new stuff: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1609...uctuations.html )
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post Apr 02, 2009, 07:42 PM
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Astrophysics Satellite Detects Dark Matter Clue?

http://www.universetoday.com/2009/04/01/as...rk-matter-clue/

.... detected a glut of positrons — antimatter counterparts to electrons — in the energy range theorized to be associated with the decay of dark matter....
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code buttons
post Apr 03, 2009, 07:18 AM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 30, 2009, 03:19 PM) *

...time is not a dimension...

What exactly are the implications of this in contrast to if the opposite was true?
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Rick
post Apr 08, 2009, 11:21 AM
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QUOTE(code buttons @ Apr 03, 2009, 08:18 AM) *

QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 30, 2009, 03:19 PM) *

...time is not a dimension...

What exactly are the implications of this in contrast to if the opposite was true?

Sorry, I thought it was obvious. If time were a dimension we could travel in it. We'd have time cars from the future appearing all around us all the time. That doesn't happen, so time is not a dimension.

Another thing, and this was Calvin's colossal error, is that if time were a dimension, the future (and past) would exist (immutably), and there would be no free will. Predestination would be the philosophy, and nothing would matter much.
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post Apr 08, 2009, 12:32 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Apr 08, 2009, 08:21 PM) *

QUOTE(code buttons @ Apr 03, 2009, 08:18 AM) *

QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 30, 2009, 03:19 PM) *

...time is not a dimension...

What exactly are the implications of this in contrast to if the opposite was true?

Sorry, I thought it was obvious. If time were a dimension we could travel in it. We'd have time cars from the future appearing all around us all the time. That doesn't happen, so time is not a dimension.

Another thing, and this was Calvin's colossal error, is that if time were a dimension, the future (and past) would exist (immutably), and there would be no free will. Predestination would be the philosophy, and nothing would matter much.
You didn't hear about the story of the twins, one of whom was sent out into space and the other who remained on Earth? Fiction, I know, but astronauts have shown similar phenomena. And that's just with a few thousand mph. Those astronauts experienced time dilation according to special relativity. Dilation implies a. dimension.

Even General relativity allows such phenomena. What follows is a quote: "If an intrepid astronaut were to position herself near the horizon of the rapidly spinning center of a black hole (without falling into its center and possibly being annihilated), she would be treated to a most remarkable form of time travel. In a brief period of her personal time she would witness an immensely long time span in the universe beyond the black hole horizon; her spacetime region would be so far removed from the external time of the surrounding cosmos that she conceivably could witness thousands, millions, or billions of years elapse. This is a kind of natural time travel; however, it severely restricts the activity of the astronaut/time traveler and she is limited to "travel" into the future. Are there solutions to General Relativity that allow natural time travel into the past? Yes, but unlike rotating black holes, they remain only theoretical possibilities."
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Rick
post Apr 08, 2009, 02:24 PM
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How does relativistic time dilation imply that time is a dimension that can be traveled in? When the astronaut arrived back home, it was in the same future as everyone else, right? His age was a few microseconds shorter, that's all.
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Hey Hey
post Apr 08, 2009, 02:38 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Apr 08, 2009, 11:24 PM) *

How does relativistic time dilation imply that time is a dimension that can be traveled in? When the astronaut arrived back home, it was in the same future as everyone else, right? His age was a few microseconds shorter, that's all.
Rick, you're 5000 miles to my right and 8 hours behind. That's not dimensions
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Rick
post Apr 10, 2009, 11:13 AM
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Then you must be facing south by southeast.
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post Apr 22, 2009, 05:38 PM
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Somewhere out there, in some mirror region of the cosmos, antimatter is lurking and has coalesced into anti-stars, anti-galaxies and maybe even anti-life.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2022...antimatter.html
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P.j.S
post Nov 06, 2009, 01:01 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 24, 2009, 01:04 PM) *

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Mar 24, 2009, 01:36 PM) *
At what velocity is the universe expanding (say, now)? Could other universes be causing the expansion of our universe?

It is said to be expanding superluminally (faster than light speed). No.

There is no shortage of power and energy in the universe. Light and electricity travel at about 186000 miles/second. However dark matter halos around galaxies are theorized mathematically to be able to travel faster than the speed of light. When dark matter is seen it is transferring its propelling energy to the recipient in question.

The standard of the universe is the earth. It is mathematically conceived that it is formed from one straight strand of pure invisible energy. This line of force is c^2 miles per second long and is just one strand of space fabric. Therefore all the energy that it takes to throw particles (186000*186000) miles in one second is re-invested to or slowed down to make many individually characteristic spherical atoms to the amount that makes up our earth. About 10% invisible dark matter is left over for propelling the orb. When the energy is being transferred to the earth to propell it there is a radiation belt or "halo" that surrounds the planet. With a galaxy the halo would be much bigger around the whole of it.

a^n is a space frabric whole that can travel c^2 miles/second
c^n is the dark energy and timing that leaves a^n supply of energy in order to penetrate the void or divide the void by zero. Then that leaves slower than a^n macro b^n which is invisible dark matter circling in the void that is penetrated by c^n. The void that naturally wants to close back up. The gravity of the dark matter continues to cause it to slow and heading in the direction of matter visibility. Everything must balance in the void and keep moving to stay cool and support life.

So with E=mc^2 Revised by PJS comes a^n - c^n = b^n where invisible dark matter b^n travels faster than c speed but less than c^2 miles/second or transfers its power to keep a heavier mass in motion in the void. The universe is expanding faster than c speed with the power of invisible dark matter propelling it but less than c^2 miles per second speed.

P.j.S
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Phi
post Nov 09, 2009, 02:27 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Apr 08, 2009, 02:24 PM) *

How does relativistic time dilation imply that time is a dimension that can be traveled in? When the astronaut arrived back home, it was in the same future as everyone else, right? His age was a few microseconds shorter, that's all.



since its all a matter of vantage and interpretation, there's no limit as to how one can take advantage of the idea. how do you want to interpret you're vantage point?
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P.j.S
post Aug 06, 2011, 03:17 PM
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QUOTE(Phi @ Nov 09, 2009, 02:27 PM) *

QUOTE(Rick @ Apr 08, 2009, 02:24 PM) *

How does relativistic time dilation imply that time is a dimension that can be traveled in? When the astronaut arrived back home, it was in the same future as everyone else, right? His age was a few microseconds shorter, that's all.



since its all a matter of vantage and interpretation, there's no limit as to how one can take advantage of the idea. how do you want to interpret you're vantage point?

If you're speaking to me my vantage point would be the observational quality of the planet earth within the negative dimension in lesser than zero space of i^2 + 1 = :0: inside the zero dimension.

Therefore i^2 = -1 and brings chaos (-1 = +1) into being with order (+1 = +1) and (-1 = -1) or counting infinities inside the negative dimension on either side of zero on a number line.
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