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> Is dark matter the essence of gravity?
catseye
post Mar 24, 2009, 09:41 AM
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I would have posted the ulr for this but I am still unable to do that- go to hubble website -news release and they have the full article there.
Would this also mean that if we gained the ability to travel into space that we could only move through our own galaxy? If we enter the outer areas of space (between galaxies) would we just lose cohesiveness?



"Hubble Provides New Evidence for Dark Matter Around Small GalaxiesView this image

NASA's Hubble Space Telescope has uncovered a strong new line of evidence that galaxies are embedded in halos of dark matter.

Peering into the tumultuous heart of the nearby Perseus galaxy cluster, Hubble discovered a large population of small galaxies that have remained intact while larger galaxies around them are being ripped apart by the gravitational tug of other galaxies.

Dark matter is an invisible form of matter that accounts for most of the universe's mass. Astronomers have deduced the existence of dark matter by observing its gravitational influence on normal matter, consisting of stars, gas, and dust.

The Hubble images provide further evidence that the undisturbed galaxies are enshrouded by a "cushion" of dark matter, which protects them from their rough-and-tumble neighborhood.

"We were surprised to find so many dwarf galaxies in the core of this cluster that were so smooth and round and had no evidence at all of any kind of disturbance," says astronomer Christopher Conselice of the University of Nottingham, U.K., and leader of the Hubble observations. "These dwarfs are very old galaxies that have been in the cluster a long time. So if something was going to disrupt them, it would have happened by now. They must be very, very dark-matter-dominated galaxies."


First proposed about 80 years ago, dark matter is thought to be the "glue" that holds galaxies together. Astronomers suggest that dark matter provides a vital "scaffolding" for the universe, forming a framework for the formation of galaxies through gravitational attraction. Previous studies with Hubble and NASA's Chandra X-ray Observatory found evidence of dark matter in entire clusters of galaxies such as the Bullet Cluster. The new Hubble observations continue the search for dark matter in individual galaxies."

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Rick
post Mar 24, 2009, 10:44 AM
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Dark matter is supposed to interact only through gravitation, and have no electro-magnetic or strong or weak force component. With nothing to push outward on it the way normal matter does (light pressure, etc.), dark matter, if it exists, should have all collapsed into black holes long ago. That's not what we observe, so I question the existence of dark matter.
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Hey Hey
post Mar 24, 2009, 12:36 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 24, 2009, 06:44 PM) *

Dark matter is supposed to interact only through gravitation, and have no electro-magnetic or strong or weak force component. With nothing to push outward on it the way normal matter does (light pressure, etc.), dark matter, if it exists, should have all collapsed into black holes long ago. That's not what we observe, so I question the existence of dark matter.
At what velocity is the universe expanding (say, now)? Could other universes be causing the expansion of our universe?
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Rick
post Mar 24, 2009, 01:04 PM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Mar 24, 2009, 01:36 PM) *
At what velocity is the universe expanding (say, now)? Could other universes be causing the expansion of our universe?

It is said to be expanding superluminally (faster than light speed). No.
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catseye
post Mar 24, 2009, 04:31 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 24, 2009, 10:44 AM) *

Dark matter is supposed to interact only through gravitation, and have no electro-magnetic or strong or weak force component. With nothing to push outward on it the way normal matter does (light pressure, etc.), dark matter, if it exists, should have all collapsed into black holes long ago. That's not what we observe, so I question the existence of dark matter.




Then what is it that they have discovered?
There is something they are looking at. This something enshrouds galaxies. This something seems related to gravitational structure. They gave this something a name: dark matter. They know that more needs to be learned, but to question the existence of that which is being observed in the realms of science as a fact is hilarious.

Perhaps dark matter is the other side of the black hole... dry.gif
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post Mar 24, 2009, 04:40 PM
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QUOTE(catseye @ Mar 24, 2009, 08:31 PM) *

QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 24, 2009, 10:44 AM) *

Dark matter is supposed to interact only through gravitation, and have no electro-magnetic or strong or weak force component. With nothing to push outward on it the way normal matter does (light pressure, etc.), dark matter, if it exists, should have all collapsed into black holes long ago. That's not what we observe, so I question the existence of dark matter.




Then what is it that they have discovered?
There is something they are looking at. This something enshrouds galaxies. This something seems related to gravitational structure. They gave this something a name: dark matter. They know that more needs to be learned, but to question the existence of that which is being observed in the realms of science as a fact is hilarious.

Perhaps dark matter is the other side of the black hole... dry.gif

Tuche rick!
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Rick
post Mar 24, 2009, 04:45 PM
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QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Mar 24, 2009, 05:40 PM) *
Tuche rick!

Not quite. Dark matter is a hypothesized substance to explain these weird observations. I think the true explanation is still unknown. Hence my skepticism as to an existence of this hypothesized fluid.
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post Mar 24, 2009, 05:02 PM
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.... and a nice parlay!
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post Mar 24, 2009, 05:20 PM
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I think I meant parrie (as in the fencing or swordsmanship terminology - to parrie a thrust or attack)
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Hey Hey
post Mar 24, 2009, 05:30 PM
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QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Mar 25, 2009, 01:20 AM) *

I think I meant parrie (as in the fencing or swordsmanship terminology - to parrie a thrust or attack)
You're one of the good guys! biggrin.gif
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catseye
post Mar 24, 2009, 05:32 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 24, 2009, 04:45 PM) *

QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Mar 24, 2009, 05:40 PM) *
Tuche rick!

Not quite. Dark matter is a hypothesized substance to explain these weird observations. I think the true explanation is still unknown. Hence my skepticism as to an existence of this hypothesized fluid.


I'm sure that some people here think that exploring these subjects is nothing but a resource for negative interplay - I don't. I joined brainmeta because I have an interest in learning and sharing that which find interesting. If you have something to share on the information , than great, if it is just some bashing game on who thinks they can outsmart who than your wasting time. At least with me. If you can't give information that backs up your response or if you just simply don't wish to agree than agree to disagree and leave it at that.


The observation are not "wierd" but yes some of the answers to what is being observed is hyothectical as they are still in the porcess of discovery;

From wikipedia:

In astronomy and cosmology, dark matter is hypothetical matter that is undetectable by its emitted radiation, but whose presence can be inferred from gravitational effects on visible matter. Dark matter is postulated to explain the flat rotation curves of spiral galaxies and other evidence of "missing mass" in the universe

-It is not a fluid, and perhaps naming it "dark matter" is yet to be changed.

The dark matter component has much more mass than the "visible" component of the universe.[1] At present, the density of ordinary baryons and radiation in the universe is estimated to be equivalent to about one hydrogen atom per cubic meter of space. Only about 4% of the total energy density in the universe (as inferred from gravitational effects) can be seen directly. About 22% is thought to be composed of dark matter. The remaining 74% is thought to consist of dark energy, an even stranger component, distributed diffusely in space.[2] Some hard-to-detect baryonic matter is believed to make a contribution to dark matter but would constitute only a small portion.[3][4] Determining the nature of this missing mass is one of the most important problems in modern cosmology and particle physics. It has been noted that the names "dark matter" and "dark energy" serve mainly as expressions of human ignorance, much like the marking of early maps with "terra incognita."[2]

The vast majority of the dark matter in the universe is believed to be nonbaryonic, which means that it contains no atoms and that it does not interact with ordinary matter via electromagnetic forces. The nonbaryonic dark matter includes neutrinos, which were discovered to have mass in recent years, and may also include hypothetical entities such as axions, or supersymmetric particles. Unlike baryonic dark matter, nonbaryonic dark matter does not contribute to the formation of the elements in the early universe ("big bang nucleosynthesis") and so its presence is revealed only via its gravitational attraction. In addition, if the particles of which it is composed are supersymmetric, they can undergo annihilation interactions with themselves resulting in observable by-products such as photons and neutrinos ("indirect detection").[5]

Nonbaryonic dark matter is classified in terms of the mass of the particle(s) that is assumed to make it up, and/or the typical velocity dispersion of those particles (since more massive particles move more slowly). There are three prominent hypotheses on nonbaryonic dark matter, called Hot Dark Matter (HDM), Warm Dark Matter (WDM), and Cold Dark Matter (CDM); some combination of these is also possible. The most widely discussed models for nonbaryonic dark matter are based on the Cold Dark Matter hypothesis, and the corresponding particle is most commonly assumed to be a neutralino. Hot dark matter might consist of (massive) neutrinos. Cold dark matter leads to a "bottom-up" formation of structure in the universe while hot dark matter results in a "top-down" formation scenario.[6]


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post Mar 24, 2009, 05:42 PM
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.... for the record I agree with the information that you have represented here newbie, as it has been well documented and bantered about here at BM over the years, but I also find validity in what Rick has to say! I'm just having some fun with you newbie.... one can learn and have fun while doing it as well don't you think!?
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catseye
post Mar 24, 2009, 05:46 PM
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QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Mar 24, 2009, 05:42 PM) *

.... for the record I agree with the information that you have represented here newbie, as it has been well documented and bantered about here at BM over the years, but I also find validity in what Rick has to say! I'm just having some fun with you newbie.... one can learn and have fun while doing it as well don't you think!?



Fair enough - no hard feelings.
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post Mar 24, 2009, 05:49 PM
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We who have learned to read, can read wiki, thank you. Here we have fun (!) in exploring diverse diversions from the mainstream also, that might not be found in wiki. But, I read what you said newbie catseye, and where is the experimental (note to wiki readers, not theoretical) evidence for the mass of dark matter?
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catseye
post Mar 24, 2009, 06:45 PM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Mar 24, 2009, 05:49 PM) *

We who have learned to read, can read wiki, thank you. Here we have fun (!) in exploring diverse diversions from the mainstream also, that might not be found in wiki. But, I read what you said newbie catseye, and where is the experimental (note to wiki readers, not theoretical) evidence for the mass of dark matter?


For readings sake...this thread was a question on whether or not dark matter could be the essence of gravity by hubbles discovery and photo, not to whether or not it exists, did you read that ?

The evidence is that the scientists discovered something surrounding galaxies that light does not penetrate, they called it dark matter or energy. Chris Miller put together a nice summery called "Cosmic Hide and Seek - The search for Missing Mass. You'll have to google it.

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Rick
post Mar 25, 2009, 06:43 AM
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Taking the measured size, computed mass, and rotation rates of the galaxies, they should be flying apart by Newton's laws. One way to account for the discrepancy (hence my use of the term weird) is to hypothesize some "dark matter" which might be a collection of particles (just as a fluid such as water or air is a collection of particles).

What contemporary physicists fail to account for in their patching up of the data analysis is the fact that such a dark matter will have no reason not to self-collapse into a bunch of black holes. Something's missing in the explanation. I stand by my statements.

Also, you have to get used to Trip. He's still in the interpersonal game playing phase.
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post Mar 25, 2009, 08:09 AM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 25, 2009, 10:43 AM) *


Also, you have to get used to Trip. He's still in the interpersonal game playing phase.


What's going on Rick.... that's two personal attacks made by YOU on ME in the past two days! I think that you may want to reassess your last statement! What does that even mean anyway?

Also, you'll have to get used to Rick.... he's still in the cranky old fart phase!
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catseye
post Mar 25, 2009, 11:27 AM
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QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Mar 25, 2009, 08:09 AM) *

QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 25, 2009, 10:43 AM) *


Also, you have to get used to Trip. He's still in the interpersonal game playing phase.


What's going on Rick.... that's two personal attacks made by YOU on ME in the past two days! I think that you may want to reassess your last statement! What does that even mean anyway?

Also, you'll have to get used to Rick.... he's still in the cranky old fart phase!



Please, just stop. Or take it outside. I have spent the better part of last night and this morning reading through some posts made by various members here. And I think that both of you have a great amount to share with intelligence. While others just seem to troll others (mostly new members) posts with insults and criticism. I have witnessed the unfortunate dissolve of phyorg and that was truly a tragedy. Although I was not an active member I enjoyed reading what was exchanged in the earlier years there. That was a forum that professionals, scientists, engineers and professors sharing their education dropped off one by one because of trolls that due to excessive posting (mostly quips of crude remarks) dominated the entire forum to where no one could have a conversation to learn, relearn or unlearn anything. It got so bad that the entire forum was shut down, alas the trolls did what they intended under their false premise of “being right or for the good of others” they closed a place of education and intellectual exchange.

It is usually best to take a grievance or misunderstanding with another member to a private email or at least a different thread that doesn’t change the present thread.

Rick, I appreciate your input and understand your hesitation to concur with the ongoing discovery of dark matter but I ‘d like to ask if you could go outside the box for a moment and consider the first question I started this thread with. Hypothetically if this “substance” is the barrier to galaxies and if it is the process of gravity do you think that if we were capable of travel, would we be able to ? - does the lack of gravity between galaxies make ultimate space travel impossible.
Thanks
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post Mar 25, 2009, 01:11 PM
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QUOTE(catseye @ Mar 25, 2009, 02:45 AM) *

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Mar 24, 2009, 05:49 PM) *

We who have learned to read, can read wiki, thank you. Here we have fun (!) in exploring diverse diversions from the mainstream also, that might not be found in wiki. But, I read what you said newbie catseye, and where is the experimental (note to wiki readers, not theoretical) evidence for the mass of dark matter?


For readings sake...this thread was a question on whether or not dark matter could be the essence of gravity by hubbles discovery and photo, not to whether or not it exists, did you read that ?

The evidence is that the scientists discovered something surrounding galaxies that light does not penetrate, they called it dark matter or energy. Chris Miller put together a nice summery called "Cosmic Hide and Seek - The search for Missing Mass. You'll have to google it.
You have an arrogance for which you will no doubt receive much flack here, as I imagine you did on phyorg. mad.gif Lighten up and don't try and be such a clever dick! wacko.gif

You don't seem to have much experience on the nature of the human psyche. If this topic were to be, 'Is god the determinant of the human mind', you wouldn't expect someone to ask about the credibility of the idea of 'god'? tongue.gif
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post Mar 25, 2009, 01:14 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 25, 2009, 02:43 PM) *
Also, you have to get used to Trip. He's still in the interpersonal game playing phase.
I think this is less of a criticism of Trip and more about some 'chip' you have Rick. Let's keep friendly and, as many of us here like, keep light-hearted.
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post Mar 25, 2009, 08:21 PM
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QUOTE(catseye @ Mar 25, 2009, 03:27 PM) *

QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Mar 25, 2009, 08:09 AM) *

QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 25, 2009, 10:43 AM) *


Also, you have to get used to Trip. He's still in the interpersonal game playing phase.


What's going on Rick.... that's two personal attacks made by YOU on ME in the past two days! I think that you may want to reassess your last statement! What does that even mean anyway?

Also, you'll have to get used to Rick.... he's still in the cranky old fart phase!



Please, just stop. Or take it outside. I have spent the better part of last night and this morning reading through some posts made by various members here. And I think that both of you have a great amount to share with intelligence. While others just seem to troll others (mostly new members) posts with insults and criticism. I have witnessed the unfortunate dissolve of phyorg and that was truly a tragedy. Although I was not an active member I enjoyed reading what was exchanged in the earlier years there. That was a forum that professionals, scientists, engineers and professors sharing their education dropped off one by one because of trolls that due to excessive posting (mostly quips of crude remarks) dominated the entire forum to where no one could have a conversation to learn, relearn or unlearn anything. It got so bad that the entire forum was shut down, alas the trolls did what they intended under their false premise of “being right or for the good of others” they closed a place of education and intellectual exchange.


Whoa buddy.... you need to pull back a bit on the bit there.... jumped the gun on that one I think! Nothing like that going on here at all! Most of us longstanding members know each other in many mentally complex ways via various intellectual discourses and the dialectical methods employed! If you are here a while you may come see some lights that you may never have known existed! But for now, enjoy and good luck in finding what you seek.... some mysteries may remain hidden as dark matter enshrouds many things from many! If the forces of gravity permit it your answers may be revealed to you!
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catseye
post Mar 26, 2009, 07:13 AM
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[/quote]
Whoa buddy.... you need to pull back a bit on the bit there.... jumped the gun on that one I think! Nothing like that going on here at all! Most of us longstanding members know each other in many mentally complex ways via various intellectual discourses and the dialectical methods employed! If you are here a while you may come see some lights that you may never have known existed! But for now, enjoy and good luck in finding what you seek.... some mysteries may remain hidden as dark matter enshrouds many things from many! If the forces of gravity permit it your answers may be revealed to you!
[/quote]


Perhaps your right Trip, thank you. I think I’ll just sit back awhile and just read.

If I came across as arrogant it certainly wasn’t my intention. But getting angry can be mistaken for arrogance. To me arrogance is taking someone’s words and misdirecting them into something else, or by using words that are inflammatory to manipulate another into submission. I’m not directing this to you Trip, I’m just putting all my thoughts down in one post. I would like to reiterate that I was not an active member in physorg. My older brother was and I enjoyed reading what he wrote, he was well known and highly respected by the majority. I just didn’t think it was proper to jump in - big brothers, little sisters, you know how it is…

One good thing came out of this though, in reading the previous post I was reminded of an old acquaintance in another forum. She was engaged in a debate with someone that called her a smart ass. I replied to her in the hope to get her laughing, “well at least the first word was “smart” ”. She has since passed away from cancer. Last night I heard the whisper in my heart, “well, at least the first word was “clever”.
It was a joy to feel her spirit.
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post Mar 26, 2009, 08:19 AM
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QUOTE(catseye @ Mar 26, 2009, 11:13 AM) *


Perhaps your right Trip, thank you. I think I’ll just sit back awhile and just read....



.... and post! Your words and take on dark matter are an interesting read thus far!
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post Mar 26, 2009, 03:14 PM
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As for the question 'Is dark matter the essence of gravity?'

I am thinking that dark matter must be something other than gravity, or else we would just call it gravity or at least gravity^2!

So, the answer as I see it would be no, dark matter is not the essence of gravity!

.... how could it be?
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post Mar 26, 2009, 07:18 PM
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QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Mar 26, 2009, 03:14 PM) *

As for the question 'Is dark matter the essence of gravity?'

I am thinking that dark matter must be something other than gravity, or else we would just call it gravity or at least gravity^2!

So, the answer as I see it would be no, dark matter is not the essence of gravity!

.... how could it be?



I think I may have used the wrong word. Is dark matter “creating” gravity?, but the more I think on it, I would have to say no too. Ultimately gravity is created by the center of the galaxy. But the effect of what they have discovered with hubble is exciting, how or what is this cushion? why is it in itself not effected by the forces at work? Could it be the discharge of black holes? I wonder …because it seem to have it’s own gravitation makeup and at a stronger force than what it is surrounding.

It’s late…I’ll will write or rewrite tomorrow -need to sleep.


….thanks Trip
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post Mar 27, 2009, 05:53 AM
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how could it be the essence of gravity? or gravity^2
Dark matter could also be an echo, mirage, mirror image of other gravitational forces- which would back up Ricks belief in disbelief. An echo is recognized and even seen in vibration but does not exist as a form unto itself.
Perhaps we are looking at the golden nothing...
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post Mar 27, 2009, 07:52 AM
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Maybe we shouldn't forget the essential curvature of spacetime that is gravity.
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post Mar 27, 2009, 09:55 AM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Mar 27, 2009, 07:52 AM) *

Maybe we shouldn't forget the essential curvature of spacetime that is gravity.



That would be a good start to understanding this mystery, but the curvature of spacetime is directly related to the four-momentum (mass-energy and linear momentum) of whatever matter and radiation are present. Outside the galaxies we don’t have a way to observe spacetime… unless this dark matter is the final “skin” of our galaxies. With the greater force of gravity being held with in it, it may be possible to look how it relates to spacetime and possibly get the information on whether it is a real force or an mirage.
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post Mar 30, 2009, 11:55 AM
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Trip can take it as well as dish it out. We have been good-naturedly ribbing each other for a long time. We have a resilient friendship. I think Trip senses when I'm trying to get a rise out of him and vice versa. Trip's always welcome in Sunny Southern California, where I can show him a thing or two about the art of bonsai.

The conventional theory of dark matter is that it is some additional mass (which causes space-time distortion) to account for the higher-than-predicted rotational speed of the galaxies. Mass "causes" gravity. It's very mysterious, and modifying the inverse square law of Isaac Newton is unpalatable at the present time. Maybe the real explanation is some sort of polynomial law (apparent only at stellar distances) as a modification of Newton.
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post Mar 30, 2009, 12:41 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Mar 30, 2009, 08:55 PM) *

Trip can take it as well as dish it out. We have been good-naturedly ribbing each other for a long time. We have a resilient friendship. I think Trip senses when I'm trying to get a rise out of him and vice versa. Trip's always welcome in Sunny Southern California, where I can show him a thing or two about the art of bonsai.

The conventional theory of dark matter is that it is some additional mass (which causes space-time distortion) to account for the higher-than-predicted rotational speed of the galaxies. Mass "causes" gravity. It's very mysterious, and modifying the inverse square law of Isaac Newton is unpalatable at the present time. Maybe the real explanation is some sort of polynomial law (apparent only at stellar distances) as a modification of Newton.
Is mass the only thing that causes spacetime to curve?
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