Why do we carry on? Options

[Hey Hey]

Why do we carry on? We are stupid? We are automata?

[Joesus]

Every thing can be traced back to one that keeps it all happening.

[Hey Hey]

Every thing can be traced back to one that keeps it all happening.

its not happening for many ...

[Joesus]

its not happening for many ...

Everything in its time for everyone.

[humanzee]

Why do we carry on? We are stupid? We are automata?

Yep, I think that about covers it -- too dim-witted to know what else to do, and genetically programmed with that ridiculous "survival" instinct, i.e., "stupid automata".

Not a particularly inspirational characterization of our species, eh?

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[Phi]

What a depressing perspective

[Hey Hey]

What a depressing perspective

Your alternative reasons?

[Phi]

I appreciate and take advantage of the fact that I get to exist.

[boots]

How can we be both living and dying?
I've pondered that question for a while now.
I've determined that "living" is a state of being and "dying" is a state of becoming.
But are we living only to die? There must be something else to live for. Experience maybe?

[maximus242]

Why do we carry on? We are stupid? We are automata?

This is all perception. People carry on because they have a purpose in life. You define what your purpose is. From a scientific perspective our purpose is to survive and replicate.

From a personal perspective your purpose in life is whatever you define it to be. Some find their purpose in science, others in art, some in music, others in business. You have to find what your purpose in life is, at the deepest core, then go after it.

A purpose is not the same as a goal. Goals are defined by our purpose. If your purpose is for example, constant self improvement - then a goal might be to overcome a fear or anxiety, to become a more mature man, to find an inner peace within yourself, etc.

In psychology there are two different types of people on their deathbeds. One is where they feel bitter, afraid and anxious about dying. The other, a much smaller segment of the population, feels fulfilled and at peace about death. The reason why they feel this fulfillment is because they achieved what they set out to do.

I would not call us automata because we are irritable. In a scientific context, we have the environment do stuff to us, then we do stuff back to it in reaction.

This is not automatic and we can consciously change our decisions by observing ego. Another term for this is self-awareness. By living in the present moment and observing ourselves in that moment, we can consciously make changes to ourselves and our behavior.

Thus we are not automa. You carry on living because you find something to live for, a purpose which you devote yourself to.

[boots]

Thus we are not automa. You carry on living because you find something to live for, a purpose which you devote yourself to.

But if we don't find something to live for, then are we automa? I have no idea what my purpose is. There is a very fine line between half empty and half full. What happens when the mind loses passion? It still carries on, but for what? Maybe it only carrys on because of the hope for regaining passion. Yet that hope reflects itself as despair of never finding passion. The line between hope and despair is vague.

[Rick]

Every thing can be traced back to one that keeps it all happening.

Or set it in motion and then retired (Deist view). That leaves Hey Hey to wonder what to do next. And also to wonder why he just doesn't chuck it all and quit. He may notice that there is a thing deep inside sometimes called motivation (or will to live), that keep us going, gives us energy so we don't always have to think about summoning it. We are given life without asking for it, but also a gift of liking it for its own sake.

That would seem counter to free will, except that if we look at the true source, it is us. That's a circuit, a bootstrap sort of thing. Therefore we are not automata, not victims, but the originators of ourselves. Be glad you want to live. Rejoice. It's a thing not to be taken lightly. Life is deadly serious. Do it justice.

[Hey Hey]

Every thing can be traced back to one that keeps it all happening.

Or set it in motion and then retired (Deist view). That leaves Hey Hey to wonder what to do next. And also to wonder why he just doesn't chuck it all and quit. He may notice that there is a thing deep inside sometimes called motivation (or will to live), that keep us going, gives us energy so we don't always have to think about summoning it.

Or obligations to live?
Happy New Year Rick and all other Friends here on BrainMeta, Hey Hey

[lokum]

How can we be both living and dying?
I've pondered that question for a while now.
I've determined that "living" is a state of being and "dying" is a state of becoming.
But are we living only to die? There must be something else to live for. Experience maybe?

I've often thought about something like this as well, but a little differently. Are we living until a point where we start to die? Or are we living until the moment we die? Or are we born and then spend the rest of our time dying until we actually die? I think this may just be a semantical problem/question.

"Life perpetuates itself through diversity, and this includes the ability to sacrifice itself when necessary. Cells repeat the process of degeneration and regeneration until one day they die, obliterating an entire set of memory and information. Only genes remain. Why continually repeat this cycle? Simply to survive by avoiding the weaknesses of an unchanging system."
- Ghost in the Shell

[Hey Hey]

How can we be both living and dying?
I've pondered that question for a while now.
I've determined that "living" is a state of being and "dying" is a state of becoming.
But are we living only to die? There must be something else to live for. Experience maybe?

I've often thought about something like this as well, but a little differently. Are we living until a point where we start to die? Or are we living until the moment we die? Or are we born and then spend the rest of our time dying until we actually die? I think this may just be a semantical problem/question.

"Life perpetuates itself through diversity, and this includes the ability to sacrifice itself when necessary. Cells repeat the process of degeneration and regeneration until one day they die, obliterating an entire set of memory and information. Only genes remain. Why continually repeat this cycle? Simply to survive by avoiding the weaknesses of an unchanging system."
- Ghost in the Shell

That is more concerned with what life is, as opposed to the reason for living. The former is discussed elsewhere on the forum.

[maximus242]

Thus we are not automa. You carry on living because you find something to live for, a purpose which you devote yourself to.

But if we don't find something to live for, then are we automa? I have no idea what my purpose is. There is a very fine line between half empty and half full. What happens when the mind loses passion? It still carries on, but for what? Maybe it only carrys on because of the hope for regaining passion. Yet that hope reflects itself as despair of never finding passion. The line between hope and despair is vague.

No you are still not automa because you are irritable in the scientific sense.

Its okay if you dont know what your purpose is, that just means your purpose is to find a purpose. If you need something to keep going on, strive for continuous self improvement. See every opportunity as a way to learn and grow and regardless of whether your succeed or failed, you will have grown as a person - thus improving yourself, which means failure is impossible for you.

Sometimes you just need to get out in the world and see what inspires passion in you. You just need to make decisions and take action, its okay if your not super passionate about something yet, just keep looking. Until then strive for continuous self improvement because focusing on that has a way of bringing everything else you want in life to you.

The truth is I bet you know what you really want deep down, you just lost hope, not passion.

One of the wisest pieces of advice I ever received was "action is the antidote to despair"

[Phi]

What other choice do you have?

I, and many others, have the belief that life is a learning process.

As enjoyment is relative to experience, so is struggle. In the meantime, all is intrinsic with brain chemicals, so why not say F**K it? Well, I wouldn't wager on that...I don't gain anything.

If I didn't exist, then I wouldn't feel anything subjectively positive; my positives are what motivates me.

[trojan_libido]

I think we're only here to help the Universe experience itself, and make pretty patterns in the sand. As for lifes meaning, I don't think we as individuals will ever really know, so its good enough that we can have a meaning thats relevant to ourselves.

We could take the stance that its all pointless in the long run, and go out and murder everyone and cause major destruction, but only if we also think that the electric chair or life imprisonment doesnt matter to us either. In the long run, self-preservation has to be the priority and probably the main reason for all morality.

[Rick]

Or obligations to live?
Happy New Year Rick and all other Friends here on BrainMeta, Hey Hey

Happy 2009. Yes, you could call it an obligation, but one is free to reject it.

[circastes]

I think we're only here to help the Universe experience itself, and make pretty patterns in the sand. As for lifes meaning, I don't think we as individuals will ever really know, so its good enough that we can have a meaning thats relevant to ourselves.

We could take the stance that its all pointless in the long run, and go out and murder everyone and cause major destruction, but only if we also think that the electric chair or life imprisonment doesnt matter to us either. In the long run, self-preservation has to be the priority and probably the main reason for all morality.

This is pretty much what I think.

I think we're all looking for a role to play. What is our role? Something that surely defies reason, something that comes from inside the mind and motivates us to do something. That something can be to write a poem, write music, or as trojan_libido says, draw things in the sand. We are not alone, we are guided by something, we are on some path, some destination awaits us... that is the feeling I get when I completely rid myself of any thought whatsoever. I wasn't put on the Earth alone as I think I was. Inside all of us something grows daily.

[Rick]

Carrying on is what we do. Homo sapiens is a goal setting animal. Deciding on the right goals requires philosophy. So to serve our goal setting nature, we are also philosophizing animals. Philosophy requires knowing ourselves. To to meet the requirements of philosophy, meditation is often invoked.

So the algorithm of the brain goes like this:

1. Feel the need to set goal.

2. Experience and maturity brings the need to set better goals.

3. Decision to think and utilize philosophy results.

4. Deepest philosophy leads to meditiation.

5. Meditation leads to acceptance of our nature.

6. Let's set some good goals! Take action. Vote Democratic!

(yes, it always comes back to politics)

[Hey Hey]

I saw a tiny fly on the window today. So vital and obviously with its survival instinct. Let me state that that I am no entomologist, but I do have a thing about flies - they are SO functional. It reminded me of a couple of weeks ago when my wife and I were sitting out having supper. A tiny insect, almost invisible to my ancient eyes, walked across the table. And I was engrossed in its dynamic traverse across the table - such an intent (licence) to survive! The wine helped, but I extolled its virtues and expressed the beauty of nature and lifeforms. Then, guess what?! An even smaller insect followed the path of the first. To say that I was blown away would be an understatement! I'm a biologist. I've seen this before. But I think what I was doing now, was to appreciate that so few neurons can exhibit so much lifeforce! Yet what are we; not much more. What do we do that is not directed toward survival? Individually or species-wide?

We are just expending time, filling it with activities, until our role as purveyors of the genes, or helpers of the genes of our species, has to end, to enable fresh genes or combinations of genes to take our place, to change the chances for species survival - to roll the dice again. We are but vehicles for gene dice rolling. What's the problem with that? Nothing. But don't let's get bogged down in reasoning. That's just another delusion, like religion. Let's keep it simple. We are meat, pure and simple. The consciousness bit (yes BIT) is a diversion and nothing more.

[Rick]

"But don't let's get bogged down in reasoning."

But it's our nature to reason! Don't fight it.

[Hey Hey]

"But don't let's get bogged down in reasoning."

But it's our nature to reason! Don't fight it.

I actually meant 'the reasoning', meaning not the activity but the illusion of a meaning.

[Hey Hey]

"But don't let's get bogged down in reasoning."

But it's our nature to reason! Don't fight it.

It's our nature to examine - take in information and select appropriate routes for action that impact on survival. (Can I take that I don't need to always qualify with 'individual or species', please? If not, someone will always cause friction with it.)

[Rick]

There are non-genetic ways people contribute to survival of our species, you know. People who are unable to or choose not to have children can still have an enormous impact on our gene pool. Adolf Hitler, for example. I know a couple who decided not to have children in order to help with the overpopulation problem. They became teachers. They have probably done more to help with our survival than many unreasoning reproducers.

[Hey Hey]

There are non-genetic ways people contribute to survival of our species, you know. People who are unable to or choose not to have children can still have an enormous impact on our gene pool. Adolf Hitler, for example. I know a couple who decided not to have children in order to help with the overpopulation problem. They became teachers. They have probably done more to help with our survival than many unreasoning reproducers.

Maybe we crossed Rick. For what you say, hence my brackets for 'species'. Survival of the species is the biologists perspective, as you know. For the less well read, the genome is not so important as the individual. (Yet, close-by individuals, still through many miles can be distant relatives that you would assist, unbeknowingly, to survive, until very modern times with travel).

[Rick]

Why do we carry on? We are stupid? We are automata?

To get directly to the point, yes, and yes.

[Hey Hey]

Why do we carry on? We are stupid? We are automata?

To get directly to the point, yes, and yes.

Think so too. Ah well, revel in the delusion until the neurons are switched off ....