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> Open Note to Majority of Users Here
twocents
post Dec 03, 2008, 09:55 PM
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I have read a great majority of your posts.
Noting that to diagnose without an in-person eval is risky:
My opinion is that most, if not all of you suffer from a single disorder at the outset: addiction.
Next, in order to evaluate whether you have a co-existing disorder, in my opinion you would need to first:
1)Put down ALL psychogenic substances-period;
2)In order to support this new lifestyle (for you), you need to get involved in AA; All of it: Do EXACTLY as the group teaches. Before you go off on how you don't have a drinking problem- AA's principles deal with the problem of addiction, plain and simple. Until you stop the meds and learn to live life on life's terms, you are lost to your addictions, period. And, BTW, that expert MD you are seeing? No MD or otherwise who is worth his salt and understands ANYTHING about addiction would put you on the meds he/she did. Grossly irresponsible.
I truly hope all of you get well.
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Enki
post Dec 04, 2008, 01:38 AM
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Brain Meta forum is one of the most specific forums on this Planet.
Here you can learn things about the Nature one cannot learn nowhere.

Very important people on this planet secretly read Brain Meta.

Brain Meta is a gateway to extremely specific secrets of this world
hidden between lines of jokes, thoughtful ideas and sparking comments.

Many politicians, men of power, great scientists, wizards, mages and fairies, ultra-terrestrials, extra terrestrials, celestials, elves and gnomes and trolls, even dragons and other interesting and respected beings of the Middlearth, Narnia and other spheres visit this forum.

There are rumors that even the Lord and you know who sometimes touches keyboard to share greetings on Brain Meta.

Here people are addicted to Wisdom. Hope you shall correct your outlook at such an interesting flamboyant place as Brain Meta is.
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lucid_dream
post Dec 04, 2008, 06:36 AM
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QUOTE(twocents @ Dec 03, 2008, 09:55 PM) *
My opinion is that most, if not all of you suffer from a single disorder at the outset: addiction.

you're entitled to your opinion, which in my opinion, is a sweeping generalization that is not at all applicable to the vast majority of Brainmeta members, and which misses the point of nootropics and cognition enhancement entirely. So, you've participated in AA meetings or have friends who have? Do you think that talking about enhancing cognition in AA meetings to mainly alcoholics is beneficial to anyone? Do you understand that the majority of nootropics (or all of them, depending on what you consider a nootropic) are not addictive?


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Trip like I do
post Dec 04, 2008, 08:09 PM
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QUOTE(Enki @ Dec 04, 2008, 04:38 AM) *

Brain Meta forum is one of the most specific forum on this Planet.
Here you can learn things about the Nature one cannot learn nowhere.

Very important people on this planet secretly read Brain Meta.

Brain Meta is a gateway to extremely specific secrets of this world
hidden between lines of jokes, thoughtful ideas and sparking comments.

Many politicians, men of power, great scientists, wizards, mages and fairies, ultra-terrestrials, extra terrestrials, celestials, elves and gnomes and trolls, even dragons and other interesting and respected beings of the Middlearth, Narnia and other spheres visit this forum.

There are rumors that even the Lord and you know who sometimes touches keyboard to share greetings on Brain Meta.

Here people are addicted to Wisdom. Hope you shall correct your outlook at such an interesting flamboyant place as Brain Meta is.


wow.... well put! For once I could finally understand one of your posts!
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Enki
post Dec 04, 2008, 11:05 PM
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QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Dec 04, 2008, 08:09 PM) *
wow.... well put! For once I could finally understand one of your posts!


What a great compliment from native speaker!
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Trip like I do
post Dec 05, 2008, 01:27 PM
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yes.... your english articulation is much improved!
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Crazytheorist
post Dec 05, 2008, 02:00 PM
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QUOTE(twocents @ Dec 04, 2008, 12:55 AM) *

I have read a great majority of your posts.
Noting that to diagnose without an in-person eval is risky:
My opinion is that most, if not all of you suffer from a single disorder at the outset: addiction.
Next, in order to evaluate whether you have a co-existing disorder, in my opinion you would need to first:
1)Put down ALL psychogenic substances-period;
2)In order to support this new lifestyle (for you), you need to get involved in AA; All of it: Do EXACTLY as the group teaches. Before you go off on how you don't have a drinking problem- AA's principles deal with the problem of addiction, plain and simple. Until you stop the meds and learn to live life on life's terms, you are lost to your addictions, period. And, BTW, that expert MD you are seeing? No MD or otherwise who is worth his salt and understands ANYTHING about addiction would put you on the meds he/she did. Grossly irresponsible.
I truly hope all of you get well.


Let's discuss this shall we?

Your claim: We are all addicted.
My questions: What exactly are we all addicted to? Is it our belief that by using certain molecules, we can achieve higher brain function? If you had actually read the posts, you would realize that the "meds" we use to support our "life style" is purely theoretical in nature. The "medications" (I really hate using that term, because it has a negative connotation) have been studied, extensively, and there is no potential harm yet.

So are we addicted? Let's discuss what addiction actually is, shall we? Addiction is defined as "the state of being enslaved to a habit or practice or to something that is psychologically or physically habit-forming, as narcotics, to such an extent that its cessation causes severe trauma". Now I could make the point "we can stop whenever we want", but that is immaterial. If you had actually read posts, we are a community of scientific observers who theorize about the potential for the brain. It is our goal to study how the brain evolves/functions etc. If we theorize that something could improve brain function, we are more then willing to try it if it is safe. We want to learn what causes us to be more "intelligent" and perform to the highest of our abilities.

So let's say we are addicted to wanting to "be better", and the way we accomplish this goal is by taking "medications". If you are into psychology, isn't this just a method for us to achieve self actualization? Are you happy with what you have achieved in your life? Well i'm sure one of us would love to study you and how your brain functions. We'd love to find out if maybe there is a mechanism in the brain that says "you know what? i'm fine with what i'm doing right now. let's keep it this way".

But that brings up another theory for me. Go back to that mechanism I just stated. Aren't many people who are addicted basically saying that to themselves already? So, by studying you maybe we could understand addiction even more.

Now, let's go back to one of your last points about how we need to go to AA to handle our addiction problem. Many of us here have good interpersonal relationships. We don't harm anyone, but most importantly we help a lot of people.While we are off "being junkies" we are working on studying and learning about the brain. Our work will, hopefully, lead to finding cures and treatments for a variety of problems that humans face everyday.

But once again, we're "addicted" so everything we say/do is just a characteristic of addiction, right? Maybe a few months down the line we'll realize that we ARE actually harming the people close to us but we don't realize it. It's quite an issue, isn't it?

I am always a fan of an outside observer being curious about the behaviors of others, so i'll finish this off by asking you some questions. What education do you have in neuroscience? What training in psychology do you have? What was your specialty in psychology? Where are you basing your OPINIONS from?

See, the difference between our "addiction" and your opinions is that our reasoning comes from the knowledge of studying. We are always reading about new studies (or in some cases, doing it ourselves) that could give us some insight into how we can improve ourselves. We look at scientifically studied "medications", and seek to understand how, why, and if the brain can be reworked to become more intelligent/harder working.

So, are we selfish by wanting to only improve ourselves? Not really, because if we notice firsthand that we can improve cognitive function imagine how we can apply that to to the many disorders of the brain that people are stuggling to fix already.

Since you haven't responded to any other post, im gonna assume this is in vein. Oh well, it was fun writing this out at least.
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Enki
post Dec 06, 2008, 12:00 AM
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QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Dec 05, 2008, 01:27 PM) *

yes.... your english articulation is much improved!


Really! I plan to improve it during winter dramatically. It is too colloquial and grammar is not so good.
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twocents
post Dec 07, 2008, 05:28 PM
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I didn't realize I needed to list a CV for credibility here. But since you ask, and additionally are skeptical:
I hold an undergraduate degree in Biochemistry/Cell Biology and Physiological Psychology;
Graduate Degree in Neuropharmacology; Graduate degree in Medicine (MD).
I have also, (if it counts in your assessment), played a number of instruments since the age of 9, enjoy music composition, and enjoy sculpting and oil painting.
I am currently interested in a model which can best be described as a unified field gestalt, which features chi as the central constant (as opposed to the speed of light)and have completed the equation (and the three dimensional representation) which emulates the structure of said chi. (There is a fourth dimensional component, but obviously this isn't translated into art as we appreciate it.)
Again, I do not mean to disparage anyone here- and by "all posters" I am referring to those individuals who are self medicating on a chronic basis in the belief that their subjective experiences have a greater value in the overall assessment of drugs and altered states than has already long been observed and appreciated.
And yes, it is my opinion, based upon my experiences and studies.
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Crazytheorist
post Dec 07, 2008, 10:15 PM
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QUOTE(twocents @ Dec 07, 2008, 08:28 PM) *

I didn't realize I needed to list a CV for credibility here. But since you ask, and additionally are skeptical:
I hold an undergraduate degree in Biochemistry/Cell Biology and Physiological Psychology;
Graduate Degree in Neuropharmacology; Graduate degree in Medicine (MD).
I have also, (if it counts in your assessment), played a number of instruments since the age of 9, enjoy music composition, and enjoy sculpting and oil painting.
I am currently interested in a model which can best be described as a unified field gestalt which features chi as the central constant (as opposed to the speed of light), and have completed the equation (and the three dimensional representation) which emulates the structure of said chi. (There is a fourth dimensional component, but obviously this isn't translated into art as we appreciate it.)
Again, I do not mean to disparage anyone here- and by "all posters" I am referring to those individuals who are self medicating on a chronic basis in the belief that their subjective experiences have a greater value in the overall assessment of drugs and altered states than has already long been observed and appreciated.
And yes, it is my opinion, based upon my experiences and studies.


Awesome, sounds like you are qualified to point me in the direction of studies and assorted research why nootropics are bad. My school gives me access to tons of online journals, so if you just post the citation that would be great. Please post them because I am sure a large majority of us here would be interested in it. If only so we can rush to our doctors and say "@#$@ HOW MUCH DAMAGE DID I DO??".

Also, you didn't need to list your CV. I just don't understand how a person with as much formal science training (in fact, kind of envious) as you, would think that a forum full of scientists/whackjobs (very fine line biggrin.gif ) would agree with your little drug war without posting evidence for us.

Also which psychogenic substances are you talking about? Nootropics? or is there some neurologist LSD cult? Actually, a neurologist LSD cult would be pretty awesome.
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twocents
post Dec 08, 2008, 05:21 AM
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Please note my original post did not
cite my credentials; I believe YOU ASKED for them.
"Awesome, sounds like you are qualified to point me in the direction of studies and assorted research why nootropics are bad."
Are you serious?
Drug War????!!!????
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Rick
post Dec 08, 2008, 04:20 PM
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QUOTE(twocents @ Dec 08, 2008, 05:21 AM) *
Are you serious?
Drug War????!!!????

In your first post you said

"... you need to get involved in AA; All of it: Do EXACTLY as the group teaches. Before you go off on how you don't have a drinking problem- AA's principles deal with the problem of addiction, plain and simple. Until you stop the meds and learn to live life on life's terms, you are lost to your addictions, period. "

As you were addressing BrainMeta users in general, it sounds to me like it's coming from some drug warriors I have heard from before. By the way, I am not addicted. I take a daily multi-vitamin, and the occasional aspirin for joint pain after exercise.
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twocents
post Dec 08, 2008, 06:14 PM
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Rick-
Knowing the way the govt has spun things I can see where the misconception from my post
could arise.
Here, specifically, is the post which got me reading a number of posts throughout this forum;
(Link: http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=7063 )

"Hello, i would like to post some information about adderall and the good and bad about it, although IMO, the good outweigh the bad.
I was diagnosed with add approx . 5 months ago. I believe i always suffered with it, along with social phobia and refractory depression. Over the past few years, iv been researching numerous mental health related issues such as Depression, anxiety, drug addiction and the brain, the Psychopharmacology of drugs and the brain, Neurtransmitters and the pathways of each, and natural, alternative methods to better cognitive health.

I do know that there are 6 Types of add. I suffer from the one which effects me with lack of motivation, lack of joy with daily activities, depression, lack of creativity and social interaction. Iv tried numerous drugs, SSRIs, TCI's, Natural remodies such as 5-htp and Same, which id do take now at a low dose with my meds. Im currently taking lexapo 10mg, Adderall 30mg 2x daily, Suboxone 16mg for opiate cravings, ( yes i tend to and did abuse opiates only for a year). I was clean from every drug except for zoloft 100mg for 1 yr, and never felt right. I would get little bursts here and there, but nothing which really made me feel right, meaning, i lacked going out, socializing, just went about my daily life and had no pleasure in it, but once i ingested an opiate, i felt that scence of pleasure, but due to legality, tolerance addiction , i got up to using several oxy 40mg daily. I started with 2 vicodin a day. Go figure. So i had enough of that, went to a rehab , got clean and never found the proper meds or a doctor willing to work with me. So i read read and read and it seemed that Dopamine had alot to do with my problems. I had the seratonin kick going with 100mg of zoloft but that was it, with some caffiene.
so, to be brief, 6 months ago, i found a docto who was pretty well rounded and knew alot about addiction and medication, moresoe an internal medicine doc with some schooliing on addiction. He is certified to perscribe suboxone, which not any doctor can do without finishing a course of certification. Nothing big, but still, he has 30 opiate addicted patients, including me. So he started meon Suboxone, 24mg, which really helped with opaite withdrawls, and some cravings, but still, i didnt feel much of anything, no high for one, which would be a no no, so my next visit, he administered an ADD testing plan and i must have failed because he then persribed me adderall 10mg 2x daily with a low dose of Klonopin. Lexapro is also added in there. I noticed positive results immediately. I became more focused, had less drug cravings, i was motivated to do things, such as sit and research at my computer for 7 hrs , before this, maybe 30min tops. Some nights i would stay up reading. Ok, well from reading about adderall, an amphetamine with contains 4 different salts. The activation of brain dopamine , mainly from the nucleus accumbens, which i believe adderall produces, is what i needed. Some say well im just swithing one drug to another but look, i do believe just because im an opiate addict, doesnt mean i will take 10 adderalls or 10 klonopins. I take them as persribed, except now for adderall which i have added another dose, which i will explain shortly. NONE of these meds get me high, they all seem to work synergisticaly with one another, and i get a better state of well being, concentracton, im more social, happier, content with what im doing in life, and i have that creativity that i always called the "zest for life". For the longest time, i thought only seratonin played the role of such. But now other neurochemicals come into play and there we have it. Ok Seratonin, Dopamine, Norepinephrine, GABA Opioid receptors, and glutamate, i have begun researching and learing what medications do to each, and even herbal and natural methods. Now i can confuse myself because there is a slue of information out there.

My main problem im having with adderall is that it seems to wear off after 4-5 hrs. I have to dose every 5 hours to sustain the desired effect. I did wait and timed a dose and 7 hrs after taking a dose, i became slightly depressed, lacked motivation, i felt i was loosing that brain stimulation with clarity and focus i needed. So now, dosing per say 10am, 3pm, 30mg a dose, by 9pm, the effects are fading, and this is the time between 8pm and 2am is when i do most of my online research, reading etc, or going out with friends to social gatherings.
So i came up with some alternatives. Before i go on, i did take 30mg 3 x daily and it worked out perfect. But then i would be short on my perscription. so i cannot add another dose per day. One alternative is to search for a supplement or substance that will potentiate adderall, make it last longer at least 3 hrs. Now some stimulants in mind are Caffeine, ephedra, and some nootropic smart drugs, the latter which im now researching. But both caffeine and ephedra have bad points. Caffeine just doesnt do it for me. After taking 60mg of adderall daily , caffeine does not have the potency, it may help a bit but not much at all. Next would be ephedrine, which is currently being banned. I do have alot of pure ephedrine pills , which i used to take yrs ago, not the actually pills, but i used to take 2 white cross ephedrine pills daily. I cant remember much about it, but i know that it did cause a quite a bit of anxiety and shakes, although i was not taking any benzodiazapines and i was drinking alot of alcohol. And i did not know about ADD and similar mental problems, but i know it gave me that kick i needed. Ephedrine, is a pretty powerful stimulant, but if you compare it to adderall, id say that ephedrine lacks the mental focus and clarity that adderall causes. It also would wear off fast and i would become very irriable, lethargic and would have to take another one fast. Then i remember stopping it altogether about 4 yrs ago, and for about 1 week, i laid around sleeping for hrs, had no energy or motivation to do anything. So, if i took say 1/2 of a 25mg ephedrine pill in the morning, timed it correctly, so when i start taking my adderall, the ephedrine would be at least half elimanted. I would not want to piggy back both of them, unless i lowered both doses of each. For instance, take 15mg of adderal, with 10mg of ephedrine 3 x daily , or even just one dose of ephedrine, due to the fact i believe its half life is alot longer. THis i have to research.
There are some amphetamine potentiators, from what i read, like antacids, for one, stop the break down of amphetamines from stomach acids.

Another option is dropping the dose back to 20mg , 3x daily and taking a less potent stimulant with 20mg of adderall. Possibly a noorotropic smart drug which iv been reading about, and if anyone knows of such, please post.

I have a few questions? They may be a bit far fetched but id appreciate it if someone helped me find answeres. Is there any "natural supplements" which release dopamine from the Nucleus accumbens? Or natural supplement combonatioins which act as a psychostimulant, even mild one. ?? What can be taken with adderall to potentiate its effects? It is better to take one or 2 large doses, or 3 smaller doses and add anothe stimulant. LIke for example, Option 1 would be lowering the dose to 20mg 3x daily and take another stimulant with it? Or just take say 40mg of adderall at noon, wait it out 8 hrs , and take the remainder of 20mg at night. Or vise versa, due to the fact i need the psychostimulation at night like after 8pm. There are numerous botanicals, herbs, adaptogens , etc on the market, and some studies show they have phamologic properties. Has anyone had luck with such for ADD type symptoms.
I read briefly the 6 different forms of add. I cant recall which one, but one of them almost totally described me. This form of add resulted in one being depressed for no reason, lethargic , no motivation or getting any joy out of doing daily activities, even activities that are so called fun? Also, this person, suffered from excessive sleep which in turn can feel just as bad as 2 hrs of sleep. OVer sleeping like 10 hrs or more, causes me to feel like crapola the whole day. But with adderall, i seem to require less sleep, 6 hrs on average, and im alert from moring to night. I rarely take a nap, as when before i would always be laying down watching tv being antisocial hermit. And a funny thing is I DO work out 6 times a week, and felt a little better after such, maily bodybuilding and kickboxing, but still not where i wanted to be , or the " natural high" you get from a workout may only last me 1 or 2 hrs.

Last, One may say im taking too may meds and supplements. Well, i just may be, i can list what im taking and you decide. But from how i felt one year ago, being clean taking only zoloft and a multiviamin for at least 8 months, to how i feel now, Im not using illicite drugs, but i am taking a partial opiate (suboxone), a benzodiazapine (klonopin) but at a low dose of .25mg 2x daily just enough to quell anxiety from the stimulants. Third would be the adderall, which is speed , and some addicts, such as meth addicts would probably eat 5 adderall 30mgs at a pop. But i dont like feeling speedy, but a calm energy type , with good mental clarity and thoughtfulness and motivation. Not just all wired up top of my head tingling, racing feeling. I really hate that state of mind. Lexapro, at 10mg, does not cause me any side effects, but ssris, iv bee on paxil, zoloft, effexor, desipramine, welbutrin, and none of those meds did much but keep me from going crazy or severly depressed. Effexor was the worst medicaton i took, on the second day, i felt like i took 10 ephedrines, plus a hit of acid. I dont wanna even explain the adverse effect. Desipramine, tooted as an alterantive for amphetamines, make the top of my head feel like there are 1000 tiny bugs crawrling around, and did not do much for mood, psychostimulant, or even energy, but it made my heart pound. Welbutrin , another one, i took once but i stopped because i became too anxous, although i was in the phase of quitting alcohol.

Well i think i wrote enought. Follow up posts or opinions i would apprietiate. Thank you for taking the time to read this
MR "

and, from that small sample
(I did not read all posts from all users...) I saw a general pattern which I addressed in my post.
Posts similar to this are very prevalent here. There is a general sense of subjective research so common in drug addicted behavior, that's all. No value judgement. Trying to figure out whether or not a "co-existing" condition exists (as this poster attempts/wonders about) cannot be accomplished in the presence of so much artificial stimulation of brain neurochemistry. Period. Again, no value judgement.
For the record: I think people should be free to take whatever they want, whenever they want, and, moreover, it SHOULDN't be the gov't's business, ie, all this stuff should be legal and taxed like crazy so that there are funds available WHEN the "research" ends and real awakening begins (this usually requires inpatient/outpatient resources and trained personel to help in the process).
This is all very basic, very predictable. Again, NO value judgement. Just the facts ma'am, just the facts.
In that connection, Rick, you are the exception that proves the rule.
Be well.

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Orbz
post Dec 08, 2008, 10:11 PM
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QUOTE(twocents @ Dec 08, 2008, 10:28 AM) *

I am currently interested in a model which can best be described as a unified field gestalt which features chi as the central constant (as opposed to the speed of light), and have completed the equation (and the three dimensional representation) which emulates the structure of said chi. (There is a fourth dimensional component, but obviously this isn't translated into art as we appreciate it.)

Ha ha, sounds like someone's been getting into the adderall/dexies.
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lucid_dream
post Dec 08, 2008, 11:36 PM
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QUOTE(Orbz @ Dec 08, 2008, 10:11 PM) *

QUOTE(twocents @ Dec 08, 2008, 10:28 AM) *

I am currently interested in a model which can best be described as a unified field gestalt which features chi as the central constant (as opposed to the speed of light), and have completed the equation (and the three dimensional representation) which emulates the structure of said chi. (There is a fourth dimensional component, but obviously this isn't translated into art as we appreciate it.)

Ha ha, sounds like someone's been getting into the adderall/dexies.

my thoughts were along the same lines. I'd like to see this completed equation that emulates the structure of said chi
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twocents
post Dec 09, 2008, 09:37 AM
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[/quote]
Ha ha, sounds like someone's been getting into the adderall/dexies.
[/quote]

I rest my case.
Best to all of you.
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code buttons
post Dec 09, 2008, 10:45 AM
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Two Cents;

Welcome to the forum. But I hope you realize that this forum is far from being a nutrients/supplements exchange of information forum. I, for one, am not an addict of any legal or illegal substance.
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Hey Hey
post Dec 09, 2008, 04:01 PM
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I take the odd whiskey. You try and stop me! HeyHey, BA (Biology/Chemistry 1st Class), MSc (Medicinal Chemistry), PhD (Microbial Biochemistry). Oh yes, I have grade 6 Piano .... ZZZZzzzzzzz
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Phi
post Dec 10, 2008, 06:39 AM
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Not trying to be a skeptic, but what has twocents experienced with addiction?
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Crazytheorist
post Dec 13, 2008, 01:08 PM
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QUOTE(twocents @ Dec 08, 2008, 09:14 PM) *

and, from that small sample
(I did not read all posts from all users...) I saw a general pattern which I addressed in my post.
Posts similar to this are very prevalent here. There is a general sense of subjective research so common in drug addicted behavior, that's all. No value judgement. Trying to figure out whether or not a "co-existing" condition exists (as this poster attempts/wonders about) cannot be accomplished in the presence of so much artificial stimulation of brain neurochemistry. Period. Again, no value judgement.
For the record: I think people should be free to take whatever they want, whenever they want, and, moreover, it SHOULDN't be the gov't's business, ie, all this stuff should be legal and taxed like crazy so that there are funds available WHEN the "research" ends and real awakening begins (this usually requires inpatient/outpatient resources and trained personel to help in the process).
This is all very basic, very predictable. Again, NO value judgement. Just the facts ma'am, just the facts.
In that connection, Rick, you are the exception that proves the rule.
Be well.


You are a terrible troll.
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Rick
post Dec 15, 2008, 09:09 AM
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If I found an exception to Newton's law of gravitation, it wouldn't "prove the rule". Science works differently than folklore.
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twocents
post Dec 15, 2008, 06:55 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Dec 15, 2008, 09:09 AM) *

If I found an exception to Newton's law of gravitation, it wouldn't "prove the rule". Science works differently than folklore.

And the use of a "figure of speech" is not science.
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