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> Robots Show That Brain Activity Is Linked To Time As Well As Space
Hey Hey
post Nov 07, 2008, 04:04 PM
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Robots Show That Brain Activity Is Linked To Time As Well As Space

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/printerfri...p?newsid=128471

07 Nov 2008

Humanoid robots have been used to show that that functional hierarchy in the brain is linked to time as well as space. Researchers from RIKEN Brain Science Institute, Japan, have created a new type of neural network model which adds to the previous literature that suggests neural activity is linked solely to spatial hierarchy within the animal brain. Details are published November 7 in the open-access journal PLoS Computational Biology.

An animal's motor control system contains a functional hierarchy, whereby small, reusable parts of movements are flexibly integrated to create various action sequences. For example, the action of drinking a cup of coffee can be broken down into a combination of small movements including the motions of reaching for a cup, grasping the cup, and bringing it to one's mouth.

Earlier studies suggested that this functional hierarchy results from an explicit spatial hierarchical structure, but this has not been seen in anatomical studies of the brain. The underlying neural mechanisms for functional hierarchy, thus, had not yet been definitively determined.

In this study, Yuichi Yamashita and Jun Tani demonstrate that even without explicit spatial hierarchical structure a, functional hierarchy can self-organize through multiple timescales in neural activity. Their model was proven viable when tested with the physical body of a humanoid robot. Results suggest that it is not only the spatial connections between neurons, but also the timescales of neural activity, that act as important mechanisms in neural systems.

"Emergence of Functional Hierarchy in a Multiple Timescale Neural Network Model: A Humanoid Robot Experiment."
Yamashita Y, Tani J (2008)
PLoS Comput Biol 4(11): e1000220. doi:10.1371/journal.pcbi.1000220
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Yocttar
post Nov 11, 2008, 12:06 PM
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Its always nice to have a proof of a well established theory smile.gif

Ofcourse timescale has an impact on the neuron as well as the strength of the connection (aka weight) which in real life is expressed by the mylination (or demylination) of an axon.

just to prove that timescale theory, all you actually needed is to take a single neuron cell, give it just instant binary input, the functionallity of that neuron will decrease signifficantly.

exmaples:
With a timescale, you can have 2 binary inputs and make a cell do the (N)AND, (N)OR and (N)XOR functions.
without the timescale, all you can do is (N)AND and (N)OR.

this 2 examples are most simple, you could add alot more examples to this theory.

so basicly, if you wish to model a neuron, you must take timescale as a factor!

Btw, I'm interested in modelling a neuron with all known theories, going to open a topic of that issue unless there already one exist on this board.

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Rick
post Nov 11, 2008, 12:22 PM
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Your neuron model seems to consider only inputs and outputs, not what is going on inside the neuron. I think neurons are much more complicated than most people suspect. It's possible that consciousness takes place within the neuron, and not in the synapses (interfaces).
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Yocttar
post Nov 11, 2008, 12:31 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Nov 11, 2008, 10:22 PM) *

Your neuron model seems to consider only inputs and outputs, not what is going on inside the neuron. I think neurons are much more complicated than most people suspect. It's possible that consciousness takes place within the neuron, and not in the synapses (interfaces).


"Your neuron model seems to consider only inputs and outputs": Absoloutly not, the fact I wasn't discussing any internal operations of a neuron doesnt say I ignore its inside. And if you got any information about the inside of the neuron, I'll be very happy to see such info, I haven't stumbled upon any info on that matter yet and my view of a neuron is still very general and far from being precise.
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Rick
post Nov 11, 2008, 01:53 PM
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Consider the swimming motion of a paramecium, a single-celled protozoan creature. It has thousands of cilia moving in coordinated motion to move and steer the animal, yet it's a single cell. A paramecium also senses food, eats, digests, reproduces, etc. A neuron, whose only function is computation, is surely capable of similar computational complexity.
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Hey Hey
post Nov 11, 2008, 03:54 PM
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Try looking up Penrose and Hameroff stuff, Yocttar. And Hi, by the way!
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Rick
post Nov 11, 2008, 04:14 PM
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But Hameroff and company are mere conjecture. Hard science in that area is painfully slow.
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Yocttar
post Nov 12, 2008, 03:04 PM
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@Rick: Thanks for your input, very informative.
@Hey Hey: Hey!!! ^^, Now about those people you mentioned, they are into the quantom physics and stuff, their knowledge can be helpful but only in the pico levels and I might be interested in it in the future, for now I'll stick with biology and chemistry. I did watch a Hameroff interview (a quick lookup in google let me to it), was very interesting and informative, glad you mentioned his name smile.gif. maybe I'll look up on Penrose some more aswell, just to get a general level of tought and theory.

I got to read about the paramecium, most of its actions and reactions are just built in, programmable actions.. but.. there is a mentioning of intilligence in it of a kind of reaction to light which is more interesting in my prespective, I'll try to look it up and if any of you already have the knowledge, I'll be happy if you'll share it smile.gif
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Rick
post Nov 12, 2008, 03:34 PM
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"The question of whether paramecia exhibit learning has been the object of a great deal of experiment, yielding equivocal results. In one of the most recent experiments published[4], the authors, by using a voltage as a reinforcement, concluded that paramecium may indeed learn to discriminate between different brightness levels."

From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramecium
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Yocttar
post Nov 14, 2008, 04:39 AM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Nov 13, 2008, 01:34 AM) *

"The question of whether paramecia exhibit learning has been the object of a great deal of experiment, yielding equivocal results. In one of the most recent experiments published[4], the authors, by using a voltage as a reinforcement, concluded that paramecium may indeed learn to discriminate between different brightness levels."

From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramecium


That's what I got to read wink.gif Do you have any other samples other then the Paramecium?
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Rick
post Nov 16, 2008, 01:13 PM
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QUOTE(Yocttar @ Nov 14, 2008, 04:39 AM) *
Do you have any other samples other then the Paramecium?

Nothing in particular, but all protozoa, generally, will move toward food and consume it.
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Wafa..
post Nov 17, 2008, 04:28 AM
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I do not know if I am right or wrong..but an example of this is the assumption of Crick and Coch about the neural correlates of consciousness..
gamma oscillation issues or so??
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Yocttar
post Nov 19, 2008, 08:35 PM
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QUOTE(Wafa.. @ Nov 17, 2008, 02:28 PM) *

I do not know if I am right or wrong..but an example of this is the assumption of Crick and Coch about the neural correlates of consciousness..
gamma oscillation issues or so??


found this:
http://www.klab.caltech.edu/~koch/crick-koch-cc-97.html
Going to read it later.
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Rick
post Nov 20, 2008, 04:55 PM
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Great article.

Here's the ultimate zombie thought experiment that will prove once and for all that philosophical zombies are inconceivable. It goes like this:

1. Most people experience dreams when they sleep and sometimes remember them on waking.

2. Obviously, since dreams are composed of nothing but consciousness, zombies don't dream.

3. Of course, zombies will exhibit REM sleep, because they are behaviorally in all ways indistinguishable from people.

4. A zombie can be detected by awakening him during REM sleep and asking him if he was dreaming. If he is honest he will say no, because zombies can't dream. If he is dishonest, he will say yes, and when asked to describe his dream, will make up something plausible, because zombies know that they are behaviorally indistinguishable from people.

In this way, the zombie conceivability problem reduces to one of detecting honest versus lying zombies. It's philosophical progress!

To detect the lying zombie, install EEG electrodes on the subject's head before letting him go to sleep. The mental effort required to invent a dream in quick order from scratch will show in comparison with the ease with which a real person can recall a real dream.

Of course, it's only a philosophical thought experiment (because where are you going to find a real zombie to experiment with), but I think it does demonstrate that philosopher's zombies are impossible and inconceivable.
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