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> Questions on MAOI - MAO-A & MAO-B, Can anyone with actual knowledge of the brain try to clear up this confusion for me
Atention All Shipping
post Nov 07, 2008, 05:42 AM
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Hello,

I've already done some research on this but I can't seem to find any really useful information to clear up my confusion on the subject of the different types of MAOI: MAO-A & MAO-B. So I wanted to ask here, apologies if this is the wrong sub-forum, if there's a better place for this enquiry just let me know where.

I have seen it reported that
QUOTE
MAO-A inhibition reduces the breakdown of primarily serotonin, epinephrine, and norepinephrine and thus has a higher risk of serotonin syndrome and/or a hypertensive crisis. Tyramine is broken down by MAO-A, therefore inhibiting its action may result in excessive build-up of it, so diet must be monitored for tyramine intake.
MAO-B inhibition reduces the breakdown mainly of dopamine and phenethylamine so there are no dietary restrictions associated with this. Two such drugs, selegiline and rasagiline have been approved by the FDA without dietary restrictions, except in high dosage treatment where they lose their selectivity.

but my confusion is this, it seems to be a reasonably widely held view on another forum (DMT-nexus) & with another sub-set of neurological pharmaceutical investigators that MAO Inhibition with harmala extracts (from Perganum Harmala/Syrian Rue) do not present a major health risk with the consumption of foodstuffs. There is a view, gained through experience, among some of those that use MAOIs to potentiate the effects of Dimethyltryptamine that the 'always avoid these foods & drinks' advice generally given with MAOIs (http://www.dr-bob.org/tips/maoi.html) is a bit over exaggerated or overly cautious for harmala. There are certainly a number of folk who say that Tyramine is broken down by MAO-B & that they've had no problems without any dietary restrictions (http://www.dmt-nexus.com/forum/Default.aspx?g=search). I had understood that harmala is an MAO-A which is meant to be the MAO for breaking down Tyramine so I wanted to ask about the conflict between the 2 different views. In your experience and knowledge is the MAOI diet really necessary for purely MAO-A inhibition.
I've seen reference to published information arguing the Diet is too restrictive in 'The Making of a User Friendly MAOI Diet" in J Clin Psychiatry 1996' but I've been unable to locate more than a 1 paragraph summary of this.

I also wanted to ask if there is a list of substances/foods/drugs which should be avoided while on MAO-B inhibitors like low doses of Deprenyl (eg should seretonin increasing substances like MDMA still be avoided for fear of seretonin syndrome?)

I'd also be interested in knowing if anyone is aware of any long-term effects of periodically and repeatedly disabling your MAO system for short periods - with either MAO-A or MAO-B? By effects I mean either noticeable physical effects or effects on the brain.


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Orbz
post Nov 08, 2008, 08:30 PM
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I'm interested in this and it's close to my research interests, so I will have a look and see what I can find.
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trojan_libido
post Nov 10, 2008, 08:42 AM
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I stuck to the MAOI diet with Syrian Rue, dieted for 12 hours prior to ingestion, then after the experience I was very hungry. I waited as long as possible but ate some toast around 5 hours afterwards, and felt a tiny bit unwell. It may have been the mind playing tricks on me, as I was the only learned tripper and guide in new territory. I also have some chest condition which makes me hypertensive and/or panicky, so that may have been a factor.
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post Nov 12, 2008, 12:21 AM
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I wouldn't have expected toast to have much effect, I would have thought the levels of tyramine would be low in bread & possibly even lower in toast due to heating, don't know for sure though but from my experience (albiet with extract rather than rue seeds) I'd've expected MAOI levels in the body to be very low if not gone by that time. That said everyone's metabolism differs & so does doseage.
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post Dec 08, 2008, 11:00 PM
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QUOTE(Atention All Shipping @ Nov 07, 2008, 10:42 PM) *

but my confusion is this, it seems to be a reasonably widely held view on another forum (DMT-nexus) & with another sub-set of neurological pharmaceutical investigators that MAO Inhibition with harmala extracts (from Perganum Harmala/Syrian Rue) do not present a major health risk with the consumption of foodstuffs. There is a view, gained through experience, among some of those that use MAOIs to potentiate the effects of Dimethyltryptamine that the 'always avoid these foods & drinks' advice generally given with MAOIs (http://www.dr-bob.org/tips/maoi.html) is a bit over exaggerated or overly cautious for harmala. There are certainly a number of folk who say that Tyramine is broken down by MAO-B & that they've had no problems without any dietary restrictions (http://www.dmt-nexus.com/forum/Default.aspx?g=search). I had understood that harmala is an MAO-A which is meant to be the MAO for breaking down Tyramine so I wanted to ask about the conflict between the 2 different views.

Sorry for the late reply, been busy...

Harmaline and harmaline type alkaloids are reversible inhibitors of MAO-a which potentially means that tyramine can displace the MAO-I from MAO-a or MAO-b and therefore can be metabolised. That along with a relatively short half life, which is approx 2 hours for Harmine (giving an approximate 12 hours before it is completely excreted), means that it is less likely to coincide with eating and cause traditional MAO-a type adverse reactions.

QUOTE

I also wanted to ask if there is a list of substances/foods/drugs which should be avoided while on MAO-B inhibitors like low doses of Deprenyl (eg should seretonin increasing substances like MDMA still be avoided for fear of seretonin syndrome?)

MAO-b doesn't seem to affect serotonin so much but it would prolong the dopamine effects, perhaps making the experience closer to an amphetamine/stimulant type experience than an entactogenic experience.
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post Dec 12, 2008, 01:00 AM
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Thanks,
I understood most of that but could you explain a bit more what you mean by "potentially means that tyramine can displace the MAO-I from MAO-a or MAO-b and therefore can be metabolised." I don't understand how this could happen.
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post Dec 12, 2008, 04:28 PM
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QUOTE(Atention All Shipping @ Dec 12, 2008, 06:00 PM) *

Thanks,
I understood most of that but could you explain a bit more what you mean by "potentially means that tyramine can displace the MAO-I from MAO-a or MAO-b and therefore can be metabolised." I don't understand how this could happen.

Traditional MAO-Is are irreversible inhibitors. This means that once they've attached to the enzyme, the enzyme is forever made inactive by the drug until the body can make more enzyme. If I remember right they usually do this through covalent bonds. Reversible inhibitors/antagonists do not bond like this to the enzyme. Once they have attached to the enzyme, they can then dissociate again because they do not form such strong chemical bonds with the enzyme. If the chemical dissociates rapidly and/or has a lower affinity for the site of action, it means that the body's own chemicals are more likely to make it to the site of action. In this particular case, because harmine type alkaloids can more easily be displaced (or dissociate faster) by tyramine, the enzyme is able to perform its natural function on tyramine.

This will help...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Receptor_antagonist
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Jurence
post Sep 21, 2009, 03:18 PM
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If you take an intense MAOI (say, once a week for 4 months) it is safe to assume that your brain is going to try to stabalize itself by altering its levels of Sertonin/nepherins and causing a minor state of depression (except for when on the MAOI). Now I am talking about extreme, psychedelic, MAOIs such as 2c-t-7 which is all the rage in Georgia.

As for why us DMTheads don't have a problem with Syrian rue, its because we don't drink it all day every day. You need to follow an MAOI diet if drinking rue is a part of your diet frequently. Amazonian shamans drink ayuhuascuah all the time with syrian rue, making buildups much more of a threat.
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Michael Dally
post Sep 28, 2009, 03:56 PM
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You guys have no idea how excited I was to find this forum:)

For the past six months I have been experiencing chronic headaches in the back of my head, ever since I accidentally mixed alcohol and peganum harmala (MAOI). Following the ingestion of both drugs I experienced a hypertensive reaction that lasted about twenty minutes before I passed out. In response to these headaches I have received an MRI, CT scan, and had blood work done and they found nothing. I went to a neurologist and he made nothing of this drug-drug interaction I experienced. He said that because peganum harmala is a reversible inhibitor, my headaches should go away with time...Due to the headaches I am still experiencing it makes it hard to believe this.

After reading this post along with other sources I have come to suspect some sort of build up in my brain causing my headaches. Here is something I read off another forum:

Your headache after the trip could possibly be due to the excess Tyramine built up in the brain. Psilocybin fucntions as a Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitor (MAOI). Monoamine oxidase is an enzyme produced by the liver and brain that cleans up excess norepinephrine, seratonin & dopamine after they have interacted in the synapse of the neurons. MAOI's function to stop the destruction of those neurotransmitters (many anti depressants function as MAOI's), but what they also do is stop the clean up of a molecule called tyramine. Tyramine affects blood pressure and when there is a build up of tyramine in the brain, slight headaches are reported, but excessive build up of tyramine can be potentially dangerous, resulting in sudden spikes in blood pressure and brain hemmoraging (rare but possible).

I was wondering if anybody has any advice for me. I have been suffering through these headaches for way to long and I would love to resolve this issue. If you guys have any advice for supplements or medication I could take to detox my brain that would be awesome, or even just an explanation.

Thanks a million.

Mike

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