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Hey Hey
post May 03, 2006, 03:36 PM
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QUOTE(Guest @ May 03, 11:11 PM) *

But did you actually try pandora.com? It's incredibly easy to use.


Yes I did. When I entered Shawn Phillips (my third entry) up popped Man Hole Covered Wagon (From Contribution, around 1970). Then second on my list was Neil Young. Well, say no more. But hang on, I have all this stuff on CD or mp3 already. Have to go further down the list. But seriously, its quick and good sound quality. Yep, it's fine. Actually I had seen pandora before but not used it. Thanks for getting me to try it. It's nice to know someone else rates Shawn (Phillips).
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Hey Hey
post May 03, 2006, 03:38 PM
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ps I almost always write poetry to melancholic music (with or without lyrics, contemporary or classical or whatever). I'm currently retroing with the Moody Blues (Words You Say, Haunted, and the like).
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Hey Hey
post May 04, 2006, 02:54 AM
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Tune into the Da Vinci coda

LEIGHTON BRUCE

ROSSLYN Chapel holds many secrets. For hundreds of years experts and visitors alike have puzzled over the carvings in the chapel. Whilst some debate whether they point to hidden treasure, Edinburgh composer Stuart Mitchell thinks he has cracked one part of the enigma.

He believes that the ornate ceiling of carved arches, featuring 213 decorated cubes holds a code for medieval music. His father Thomas Mitchell spent 20 years cracking this code in the ceiling and now Stuart is orchestrating the findings for a new recording called The Rosslyn Motet.

The breakthrough to interpreting the notation came when Mitchell's father discovered that the markings carved on the face of the cubes seem to match a phenomenon called Cymatics or Chladni patterns. Chladni patterns form when a sustained note is used to vibrate a sheet of metal covered in powder producing marks. The frequency used dictates the shape of the pattern, for example; the musical note A below middle C vibrates at 440 KHz and produces a shape that looks like a rhombus. Different notes can produce various shapes including flowers, diamonds and hexagons - shapes all present on the Rosslyn cubes. Stuart Mitchell believes this is "beyond coincidence" and has assigned a note to each cube.

Ernst Chladni first documented the phenomenon in the late 18th century - yet it appears to be present in a 15th century building. Which begs the question: "Was Sir William St Clair (the man who built Rosslyn Chapel) familiar with sciences far in advance of his time?".

Stuart Mitchell believes a link between the Knights Templar – who may have gleaned advanced Eastern scientific knowledge during their stay in Jerusalem during the Crusades – and Rosslyn could explain the encoded musical notes.

"The symbolism in Rosslyn is reaching back to times of a civilisation that is lost to us now that had sciences that are the roots of all the mechanics of the universe," says Mitchell.

If this science was used in the carvings at Rosslyn, then there needs to be an explanation of how this information came to be lost for centuries. According to Mitchell, the Church suppressed the knowledge as a means of controlling the public. "What it points towards is the church system denying people certain knowledge because knowledge is awareness. People who knew too much were burnt as witches."


According to Mitchell this is a Chladni pattern - a way of showing a musical note by way of its vibrations.
Interestingly the Devil's Chord - diabolus in musica - makes an appearance in the music.

"In the ceiling is this jump of an augmented fourth, in fact it opens up with an augmented fourth," says Mitchell. The Catholic Church had banned this interval (seven semitones) from medieval music as it was believed to be disturbing and therefore diabolical. Perhaps St Clair was indeed challenging the authority of the church.

The music itself, according to Mitchell is a mix "of Celtic melodies and secular worship crossed with a kind of Christian worship" but not Catholic he says. Perhaps this explains why carvings depicting the green man, essentially a pagan image, exist alongside carvings of Christ in the chapel.

"[Orkney] and the Shetlands had a very big druid, pagan community and they had their own culture of music," says Mitchell. "William St Clair was the last Earl of Orkney and some of the melodies in the ceiling of Rosslyn Chapel are Orkney/Shetland Airs."

Mitchell doesn't believe that the notes were carved there simply to record a piece of music. He hopes that the repeated frequencies in the music will resonate within the building and unlock a medieval secret.

"Hopefully, knowing masons of this period of time were aware of the acoustic properties and the effect of resonance upon stone, we're hoping something falls loose… it's like a safe. This is why we think he [St Clair] has gone to so much trouble."


Find out more about Stuart Mitchell's project.
Mitchell has no idea what may be hidden in the church, but believes that St Clair used advanced science to ensure that the music was hidden from prying eyes.

Mitchell, dubbing the project "The Voice of Creation", says the carvings on the cubes are ultimately about sacred geometry.

"What it's saying is we've forgotten more than we know."

Perhaps the music is indeed a key to the past, the physics of the universe and just maybe, played loud enough inside Rosslyn, it will unlock a long lost secret hidden in the masonry.
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Warren Bonesteel
post May 04, 2006, 03:49 PM
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I'm new here, so please. be gentle. It's my first time. ;O) I was going to lurk for a few days and read the board, but this topic caught my eye.

It would seem to me that one of the reasons for music's almost inexplicable effects upon us as human beings is because at heart, we are musical beings.

http://polymer.bu.edu/music/
"The Music of the Heart is derived from electrocardiogram (ECG) data, actual digital recordings of the electrical signals of the human heart. These HeartSongs began as musical notes mapped from the heartbeat data. The composer then added harmonies and rhythm to make pleasant sounding music. How can your heart make music?"

Indeed, the DNA of everything on earth produces 'music.' http://www.molecularmusic.com/
http://www.artic.edu/~pgena/DNAmus.html
http://www.dnamusic.com/articles/music_and_metamusic.htm

The sun itself and the planets produce 'music.'
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/te...und_041214.html
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2005/s1422887.htm
http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/imag...fm?imageID=1613
http://www.altair.org/natradio.html

And then if you do a bit of research into "magnetic" DNA and "crystal" DNA, other things become apparent.

As well, Russians scientists commonly use "sound" to splice and cut DNA. (In the West we prefer to use our chemistry sets to do the job.)

"Black Holes" produce 'music.' The universe itself produces a 'musical' note. The list goes on and on. (I have assembled several hundred pages of 'academic' research on the topic.)

There might be an underlying reason why music has such a deep effect upon not only our psyche and consciousness, but upon our very bodies.

...and thus, there may be a valid reason why some forms of music sound 'better' to us individually and as cultures and groups.
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post May 04, 2006, 03:55 PM
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Welcome to the site, and you will be most welcomed indeed with such informative posts.

....the Pythagoreans definitately believed in the harmony of the universe and that we all are simply dancing to various mathematical tunes and notes....
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Warren Bonesteel
post May 04, 2006, 05:02 PM
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QUOTE(Trip like I do @ May 04, 05:55 PM) *

Welcome to the site, and you will be most welcomed indeed with such informative posts.

....the Pythagoreans definitately believed in the harmony of the universe and that we all simply dancing various mathematical tunes and notes....



Thanks for the welcome.

Plato, Pythagoras, and many of the old "philosophers" and alchemists may have been on to something. Musica Universalis is worth some re-consideration in view of research in biology and astro-physics that has been done over the last decade or so. (Keep in mind that Newton was also an alchemist. ;O) Although it is rumored that he wished to be known for his theologial works over his scientific works.)

As regards Hey Hey's post, some researchers have dismissed the "encoded waves" found in the carvings at Rosslyn, but at the same time, none of them have tried half-notes or vocalisations. (Hans Jerry was definitely on to something, imo.) Plus, with a bit of research at The Meru Foundation website, as well as a look at Dan Winter's work, a person may be able to glean some useful knowledge in attempting to understand those carvings. I know that Dan Winter is a bit out there, more than a little arrogant, and he likes to include his socio-political ideologies in his work, but there are aspects of his research that really shouldn't be a priori ignored.

Although I am not a "professional," my own work seems to reveal that there is much more to consciousness than at first meets the eye...er...ear. Music, sound, harmonics - whatever you want to call it - seems to have a far greater impact than most seem to realize.

Bones

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post May 04, 2006, 05:34 PM
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Yes, Robert Fludd also said that "the mind of man is a universe in miniature"

....and Hermes stated "As above, so below".

Great links by the way!
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Warren Bonesteel
post May 04, 2006, 06:13 PM
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QUOTE(Trip like I do @ May 04, 07:34 PM) *

Yes, Robert Fludd also said that "the mind of man is a universe in miniature"

....and Hermes stated "As above, so below".

Great links by the way!



My own research seems to indicate that "Hermes" (or is it Toth...or Mercury? LOL) was right.

Regarding The Rosslyn Chapel, I just recieved this link from a friend a few minutes ago:
http://heritage.scotsman.com/myths.cfm?id=627062006
"...Edinburgh composer Stuart Mitchell thinks he has cracked one part of the enigma."

The Scotsman is not the most reliable of resources, so a bit more research is in order.

Personally, I think they might need to look into Eastern musical scales, which are a bit different than we commonly use in the West.

Whatever one thinks of it, it is undeniably interesting.

Bones
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post May 04, 2006, 07:46 PM
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QUOTE(Warren Bonesteel @ May 04, 03:49 PM) *

There might be an underlying reason why music has such a deep effect upon not only our psyche and consciousness, but upon our very bodies.

quote:"The bottom line is that sex is rythm and music is rythm too " Unknown


Welcome Warren. I love music myself. Even music that those close to me find offensive, out of character or bizarre. In my way of thinking, if it means something to somebody, if it makes someone happy, then it has beauty hidden in it for me to discover and enjoy. I tent to gyrate, unfortunatelly, toward some type of music more than others; Jazz is my weakness. And Billy Holliday my idol. If "dying and going to heaven" means listening to her for eternity, then that's a price I'm happily willing to pay. She touches cordes very deep inside of me that I didn't even know I had. And the best part is that the more I listen to her, the more I want to continue listening to her. Her voice is just not human, is it? It's so far above all others! I'm my alone in this? What is wrong with me?
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post May 04, 2006, 08:33 PM
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QUOTE(code buttons @ May 04, 07:46 PM) *


quote:"The bottom line is that sex is rythm and music is rythm too" Unknown
Welcome Warren. I love music myself. Even music that those close to me find offensive, out of character or bizarre. In my way of thinking, if it means something to somebody, if it makes someone happy, then it has beauty hidden in it for me to discover and enjoy. I tent to gyrate, unfortunatelly, toward some type of music more than others; Jazz is my weekness. And Billy Holliday my idol. If "dying and going to heaven" means listening to her for eternity, then that's a price I'm happily willing to pay. She touches cordes very deep inside of me that I didn't even know I had. And the best part is that the more I listen to her, the more I want to continue listening to her. Her voice is just not human, is it? It's so far above all others! I'm my alone in this? What is wrong with me?



From what I can tell, in addition to the music, it's all about magnetism. Colognes, hard bodies, sexy voices and seasonal trends in clothing aside, that is.

First, we know that magnets interact on a fundamental level.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/HBASE...ntum/lande.html
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/chemistry/photochem/spin/08.pdf
They also interact with electricity. (If you're a musician and you're "plugged in," you're using magnets, and not only in your speakers.)
http://ocw.mit.edu/NR/rdonlyres/Mechanical...magnet_refo.pdf
http://www.synchrotron.vic.gov.au/files/do...teractions-.pdf

certain mechanical properties are also affected by magnets.
http://www.er.doe.gov/bes/dms/Research_Pro...B/MechBehav.pdf
there are also chemical interactions that are affected by magnets;
http://flux.aps.org/meetings/YR03/MAR03/baps/abs/S6010.html
http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0305-4608/13/10/025/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...2&dopt=Abstract

Crystals interact with magnets;
http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/Ge...=cvips&gifs=yes
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/release...6_Lanzara.shtml
http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PR/v76/i9/p1328_1
http://www.foresight.org/conference/MNT8/A...ikov/index.html

and magnets also vibrate...all on their own.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_field
http://epaper.kek.jp/p93/PDF/PAC1993_1393.PDF
http://www.midnightscience.com/FAQ.html
and are subject to vibrations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphones
http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0953-8984/16/40/014


Now, we already know that man's brain 'emits' or produces a measurable electromagnetic field.
The Industrial Physicist http://www.aip.org/tip/INPHFA/vol-9/iss-4/p8.html
The Encyclopedia of Neuroscience http://www.emrnetwork.org/research/adey_encneuro_emfs.pdf
with a more complete listing of resources here:
http://www.vxm.com/bib.doc.html
Plus an introduction to the material here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetoencephalography

The human heart produces it's own magnetic field:
http://www.magnetocardiography.info/
(Some resorurces claim to be able to measure it up to six feet away.)

Personally, I have an affinity for 'classical' rock and certain types of blue grass music. Of late, I haven't allowed much time to indulge myself, though.

Plus some magnetic properties of DNA:
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/j.../ja055056d.html
http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/pr/2006/...ang-041906.html
http://www.magneticmicrosphere.com/meet2006/posters.html
http://www.magneticmicrosphere.com/
http://www.weizmann.ac.il/chemphys/cinaama...blications.html
http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/pdf/10.10...940?cookieSet=1
We also know of man's scientifically measurable bio-field. (the New Agers call it your 'Aura." I do believe that some few people can physically see it.)
http://www.tgo.uit.no/saba/sabathesis/Biol.html
http://www.vanderbilt.edu/biomag/ http://www.accessscience.com/Encyclopedia/...ameset.html?doi
http://www.biomag.hus.fi/

Then...something to think about
We know that the earth is an electromagnetic generator and that it's magnetic field protects us from the 'vagaries' of the universe and of the solar system. http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/earth/magnetic.html
http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/academy/space/mag_field.html
http://www.physorg.com/news2575.html

...solar/planetary magnetic interactions:
http://www.aas.org/publications/baas/v36n5/aas205/680.htm

Solar flares...
http://science.nasa.gov/ssl/pad/solar/the_key.htm
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/sola...nap_000622.html
...gamma ray bursts, gravity waves - and, I think - even asteroid impacts...
http://www.sciencefrontiers.com/sf053/sf053g11.htm
http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news085.html
http://www.scienceblog.com/community/older...rchnas1934.html
http://www.astronomytoday.com/astronomy/asteroids.html
...and perhaps even volcanoes...
http://research.unm.edu/quantum/vallescaldera.html http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/sci/fifthconf99/6231.pdf
...all affect or have a temporary effect upon the earth's magnetic field. All of these things also have an effect upon the earth's climate and weather systems.
http://www.dmi.dk/eng/cpt8.pdf
http://e-collection.ethbib.ethz.ch/ecol-po...xt/eth14976.pdf
http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/admin/books/...ge-Baliunas.pdf


Personally, I think all of these things have an effect upon mankind's consciousness.

The universe itself is a magnetic universe:
http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/p...3527404090.html
http://www.eurekalert.org/features/doe/200...l-tmu060602.php
http://www.zpenergy.com/modules.php?name=N...rticle&sid=1869
http://www-chaos.umd.edu/research.html

I could go continue with this list alone for several more pages, CodeButtons, but I think you get the idea. (I won't insult anyone's intelligence here by making all of the itty-bitty connections between the material.)

Billy Holiday sang with a "heavenly voice."

...a heavenly 'voice' that speaks to us each and every day. ;O)

She just 'polarizes you in a way that no one else can. ;O)

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Warren Bonesteel
post May 04, 2006, 08:38 PM
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Ooops. Fergot to sign in. ^^^

Bones
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post May 05, 2006, 05:08 AM
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QUOTE(Guest @ May 04, 08:33 PM) *

Billy Holiday sang with a "heavenly voice."

...a heavenly 'voice' that speaks to us each and every day. ;O)

She just 'polarizes you in a way that no one else can. ;O)

Bones

Thank you for the reply, and the links. It's going to take me awhile to digest all this information, but it's well worth my time. I'm very glad to have you on board at BrainMeta. And thank you for the explanation about Billy Holiday's voice. I have a feeling that after I go through your information here I'll get a grip on what the hell exactly is it that makes her voice so "Magnetic" (am I using the correct term?)
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post May 05, 2006, 06:50 AM
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QUOTE(code buttons @ May 05, 05:08 AM) *


Thank you for the reply, and the links. It's going to take me awhile to digest all this information, but it's well worth my time. I'm very glad to have you on board at BrainMeta. And thank you for the explanation about Billy Holiday's voice. I have a feeling that after I go through your information here I'll get a grip on what the hell exactly is it that makes her voice so "Magnetic" (am I using the correct term?)



I don't think that there is a "correct" term. A lot of folks think there is, though. ;O)

Personally, I haven't seen a single model or theory that addresses everything that we need to know about consciousness. I have some ideas, myself, but I'm "mathematically disinclined," so I haven't applied such rigor to them.

From what I can tell, it's a multi-leveled, multi-disciplined holistic approach that's needed, and too many people have too much to protect (ideologies, tenure, grants, publication, 'reputations,' etc. and so on) in order to truly and honestly work together at this point.

Keep in mind, that - believe it or not - crystals are also involved in what I've shared on this thread. ;O)

Not only does DNA of every living exhibit crystalline properties, but the earth's core is composed of an iron crystalline lattice. (has to do with pressure and heat.) Almost everything on earth has some form of silica in it, as well - a crystal. Plus, your pineal gland exhibits crystalline properties...which some say influences everything in your brain and in the rest of your body.

So we have vibrations - harmonics and sound - plus magnetism and crystals. And then, there's light... It seems that the entirety of the electromagnetic spectrum is involved in consciousness in one form or another, actually.

For me, what makes it all work is a basic understanding of the Plasma Universe Theory, which isn't nearly as outlandish as most presume (reference plasma physics), plus I think that certain aspects of the Holographic Universe/Holonomic Brain Theories come into play, as well as many hundred and thousands of other works based upon Pibram's and Bohm's original work. (see also Julian Jayne's - psychologist - work on The Bicameral Mind, as well as recent work in early brain development in the womb.)

The problem with ideas like mine, though, is that most traditional scientists and institutions won't take an honest look at the material. They're rather dogmatic, actually. It's much easier to argue with a theologian about religion than it is to talk to most scientists about new ideas. (see Feynman's talk on Cargo Cult Science, which references my point, here.)

I also understand that a few years ago, Hawkings declared that physics needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. Of course, he may have just been kinda cheesed that one of his pet theories had been proven wrong, too. ;O)


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Hey Hey
post May 05, 2006, 12:24 PM
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QUOTE(Warren Bonesteel @ May 05, 12:49 AM) *

I'm new here, so please. be gentle. It's my first time. ;O) I was going to lurk for a few days and read the board, but this topic caught my eye.

It would seem to me that one of the reasons for music's almost inexplicable effects upon us as human beings is because at heart, we are musical beings.

http://polymer.bu.edu/music/
"The Music of the Heart is derived from electrocardiogram (ECG) data, actual digital recordings of the electrical signals of the human heart. These HeartSongs began as musical notes mapped from the heartbeat data. The composer then added harmonies and rhythm to make pleasant sounding music. How can your heart make music?"

Indeed, the DNA of everything on earth produces 'music.' http://www.molecularmusic.com/
http://www.artic.edu/~pgena/DNAmus.html
http://www.dnamusic.com/articles/music_and_metamusic.htm

The sun itself and the planets produce 'music.'
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/te...und_041214.html
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2005/s1422887.htm
http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/imag...fm?imageID=1613
http://www.altair.org/natradio.html

And then if you do a bit of research into "magnetic" DNA and "crystal" DNA, other things become apparent.

As well, Russians scientists commonly use "sound" to splice and cut DNA. (In the West we prefer to use our chemistry sets to do the job.)

"Black Holes" produce 'music.' The universe itself produces a 'musical' note. The list goes on and on. (I have assembled several hundred pages of 'academic' research on the topic.)

There might be an underlying reason why music has such a deep effect upon not only our psyche and consciousness, but upon our very bodies.

...and thus, there may be a valid reason why some forms of music sound 'better' to us individually and as cultures and groups.


May I add my welcome to you as well.

But surely in your post you should have used "sound" instead of "music". And indeed the Russians use ultrasonics (they are not the only ones by far; one of my post docs moved on to a research group using ultrasonics to manipulate cells and molecules).
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post May 05, 2006, 03:45 PM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ May 05, 12:24 PM) *



May I add my welcome to you as well.

But surely in your post you should have used "sound" instead of "music". And indeed the Russians use ultrasonics (they are not the only ones by far; one of my post docs moved on to a research group using ultrasonics to manipulate cells and molecules).





Thank you, 'Hey Hey'

You may want to discuss the proper and detailed use of terms with the scientists who apply music to their fields. Astronomers, astrophysicists, biologists, mathematicians, etc. and so on. (Please note that I did qualify my own use of the term by enclosing the words in a couple of weird little punctuation marks.)
They use the term in the same way as I have in the above posts. I didn't pull the use of that term out of thin air. There seem to be actual algorithms and other types of math functions involved in music - sound, sonics, harmonics, vibrations - whatever term you use for whatever purpose, can all be understood and rendered musically. I'm not a mathematician or a musician, so I'm not about to argue over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

For example, here is some "musical" math, with additional pages detailing how a mathematician arrived at his results. http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/9349/
I'm not a mathematician, so I won't judge his equations or how he arrived at his results.

Music is sound. For the musicians and artists among you, a simple chart: http://www.lunarplanner.com/Harmonics/plan...-harmonics.html

Also compare the musical scales with the Law of Octaves, upon which the periodic table of the elements is based.

You don't have to agree with me, Professor. You're certainly free to your own thoughts and beliefs.

Without bombarding the board with hundreds of pages of references and resources, that is all I have to say.

Interesting trap, btw. Full of logical fallacies, though.

I do hope that your post doc has a great career.

Bones
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Hey Hey
post May 05, 2006, 04:18 PM
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QUOTE(Guest @ May 06, 12:45 AM) *

Music is sound.


But not all sound is music.
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Warren Bonesteel
post May 05, 2006, 06:49 PM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ May 05, 06:18 PM) *

QUOTE(Guest @ May 06, 12:45 AM) *

Music is sound.


But not all sound is music.



So...Just how many angels can dance on the head of pin? ohmy.gif)

I am well able to defend my position, doctor. I find that it is normally a waste of time to do so, however. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. You'll wear yourself out and you'll only annoy the horse.

As I said previously, you aren't required to believe what I want you to.

I do invite you to do your own research, and come to your own conclusions. You may want to begin by actually reading the material at some of the links that were provided. ohmy.gif)

Not all noise, sound or vibration is music to our ears, but every sound and vibration can be annotated on a musical scale.


Bones

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post May 05, 2006, 07:18 PM
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QUOTE(Warren Bonesteel @ May 05, 06:49 PM) *

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ May 05, 06:18 PM) *

QUOTE(Guest @ May 06, 12:45 AM) *

Music is sound.


But not all sound is music.



So...Just how many angels can dance on the head of pin? ohmy.gif)

I am well able to defend my position, doctor. I find that it is normally a waste of time to do so, however. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. You'll wear yourself out and you'll only annoy the horse.

As I said previously, you aren't required to believe what I want you to.

I do invite you to do your own research, and come to your own conclusions. You may want to begin by actually reading the material at some of the links that were provided. ohmy.gif)

Not all noise, sound or vibration is music to our ears, but every sound and vibration can be annotated on a musical scale.


Bones

There are intriguing implications here. Music is a matter of perspective, then, right? For example: The sound of Billy Holiday's voice and the sound of the cosmic background radiation (link), which I actually heard while watching a science show on tv, are sublime music to my ears. The horrible noises that came out of the World Trade Center on 9/11/2001, while despicable and abominable to my ears, was actually music to somebody else’s; Usama Bin Laden, for example. Am I in the right path?
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post May 05, 2006, 08:56 PM
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QUOTE(Warren Bonesteel @ May 05, 06:49 PM) *

So...Just how many angels can dance on the head of pin? ohmy.gif)

I am well able to defend my position, doctor. I find that it is normally a waste of time to do so, however. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. You'll wear yourself out and you'll only annoy the horse.

As I said previously, you aren't required to believe what I want you to.

No need to get so defensive here, Warren. Hey Hey is indeed a doctor with a Ph.D. in sciences and a God here, but a gentle one at that. This forum was created for the exchange of information and ideas, and everyone's are welcome, as Shawn puts it. Your expertise in the subject is unquestionable. And your input refreshing and very welcome here. Besides, it's not Hey Hey's opinion that matters, or mine or anyone else's for that matter: It's yours. So we want to hear it. And then we'll share our conjectures with you as they arise. and then, you'll have a chance to answer back, and so on. Hey Hey is also a very funny guy (that bloody Brittish humor in him!). So, you just never know where he's going with his comments!
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Warren Bonesteel
post May 06, 2006, 02:43 AM
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QUOTE(code buttons @ May 05, 10:56 PM) *


No need to get so defensive here, Warren. Hey Hey is indeed a doctor with a Ph.D. in sciences and a God here, but a gentle one at that. This forum was created for the exchange of information and ideas, and everyone's are welcome, as Shawn puts it. Your expertise in the subject is unquestionable. And your input refreshing and very welcome here. Besides, it's not Hey Hey's opinion that matters, or mine or anyone else's for that matter: It's yours. So we want to hear it. And then we'll share our conjectures with you as they arise. and then, you'll have a chance to answer back, and so on. Hey Hey is also a very funny guy (that bloody Brittish humor in him!). So, you just never know where he's going with his comments!





I've dealt with the Brits before. Both professionally and in social settings. I do have an appreciation for their humor, but sometimes we don't understand each other's metaphors and allegories. ;O) Those I have dealt with personally have proven to be among the best people that I've ever met and known.

Now, myself, I have a very "dry" sense of humor. There are times when it doesn't work on a typewritten page, though. LOL. At least, not without filling my posts with alla those little abbreviations, smiley faces and icons.

I've also moderated forums in times past, and even owned my own website forum for a time. An underlying part of Hey Hey's comments were really meant as a test of the new guy on the boards. ;O) ("He's posted some weird crap. Let's see how he handles himself when he's prodded a little.") To say that noise and sound isn't music is a completely subjective judgment, not a scientific one. From what I have seen, it's not even mathematically correct. For a scientist to keep raising the question of noise and sound not being music is so preposterous that I had assumed that Hey Hey was pulling my leg and thinking that I wouldn't "get it." So, in turn, an underlying theme in my responses was to poke back at him a little. (He can dish it out. Let's see if he can take it. LOL.) I wouldn't necessarily call him a wordsmith, but the way he phrased his posts on this thread was very interesting on several counts. It was quite skillfully done. Most people, however, wouldn't have seen the logical fallacies involved in his posts, and he mighta gotten away with it. Indeed, being a professor and a moderator, I'm quite sure that he thought that he could "get away with it.' ;O) ...actually, what he's done is defined as "trolling." My responses to him are what is known as "feeding the troll." ;O) ...of course, who's feeding who at this point is a matter for discussion. He's the moderator, so chances are I've already been labeled as "the bad guy." Which means that according to game theory, I'm already in a lose-lose (null game) situation, here. For those who spend a lot of times on foums - it isn't readily apparent, but I do have an option.

None of my comments were meant in a sprit of meanness. I've been quite calm throughout. It's all been rather amusing, in a weird sort of a way. ohmy.gif)

Besides, if Hey Hey possesses that famous - or rather, infamous - Brit humor, I'm quite sure he's gotten a kick out of some of my comments in response to him.

About the sound and noise, what I said earlier holds true.

"Not all noise, sound or vibration is music to our ears, but every sound and vibration can be annotated on a musical scale." Such noise and sound may not be music to our ears - most noises and sounds we can't even hear - but it is all, none-the-less, "music." The fact is, every noise, sound and vibration can be mathematically converted to the musical scale, and even without the mathematical conversions (which are done so that we can actually hear most of the 'noise') every sound that you hear can be annotated musically. No matter fingernails scraping a blackboard getting on your nerves, it is still music.

What we consider to be pleasing music is, at times, very subjective. Our response to music that we find pleasing - or not - can be sorted out scientifically. Indeed, it's already been done to no little extent.

...and yes, I knew that he was a retired professor. ;O) Respect works both ways, no matter how pretty your bathroom is.

...of course, my own bathroom's not very pretty, but it is functional - thank god.

In other words, the good professor has to use soap and toilet paper, just as I do. ;O)

My raw research - which I have shared with a biology professor, "You have created a very impressive body of work. YOU, my friend, have gone far beyond where I’ve been and I am excited to get the chance to devour it all."

...a physicist, "A coherent and imposing body of knowledge."

...and a museum curator, who claimed that much of my work made absolute sense in view of his education and expereince in his specialty. (North American Art forms. He was also involved with Burning Man for a number of years.)

The raw research has been shared with several others as well. One published author is currently working on a book as based upon some of the material. Her readership and style are quite a bit different than my own, so that's no problem to me. Up until now, I've been sharing this material freely with anyone who is interested.

None of the people I've shared this with had seen the material assembled in this fashion or in this depth. The DNA music, crystal DNA, and magnetic DNA posts that I've shared on this thread are only a very small part of what I have assembled. I have also assembled a three thousand page historical timeline that only verifies in detail what is in the rest of my research. (I need to double the timeline, actually.) Plus, I have assembled more than seven thousand pages of additional research. - I lost count, actually, it's more than 2 GB's of data in total.

No, I'm no expert, nor am I a "professional" in academia or science, but what I have done is something most seem to be unable to do, or simply don't have the time to do. That is, to put the material together so that it makes sense. Rationally, logically and reasonably. What I am very good at is seeing patterns and relationships in all of the information that I read and see and hear.


Bones
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post May 06, 2006, 06:17 AM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ May 05, 07:18 PM) *

QUOTE(Guest @ May 06, 12:45 AM) *

Music is sound.


But not all sound is music.

Hear hear, Hey Hey!

We could argue forever about whether or not all sound is music--there's likely no definitive way to "prove" either argument. However, I tend to agree with you.

Just because every every noise, sound and vibration is part of the musical scale doesn't automatically make these elements music in and of themselves. To say that all noise is music is like saying that all words are poetry.

I like Webster's definition:
"The science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity."

Music requires order, succession, continuity and composition. Also implicit in this definition is that music is a human creation. The natural hum of the universe doesn't qualify.

If all noise is music, then why do we even have the word "music"?


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Plato
post May 06, 2006, 08:14 AM
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Hi Warren,

Reading your information, I agree with you, especially since I have this pythagorean background. smile.gif

Have you read of the way sonoluminece works?



Let's not worry about the "energy production" for now, other then, the sound and it's application there? Are you familiar?

If one holds to the bulk perspective and you would have to know what I mean by the bulk, then, such concentrations would have held perspectve to the gatherings and created the circumstances for new universe to be borne?



If one types in the "search function" at the top left hand corner the word "bulk," of the blog as I did, with the word, "sound," then a page will come up that will help explain that term. How it is used. The Picture and it's link will be most useful as well.
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Warren Bonesteel
post May 07, 2006, 11:08 PM
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QUOTE(Plato @ May 06, 10:14 AM) *

Hi Warren,

Reading your information, I agree with you, especially since I have this pythagorean background. smile.gif

Have you read of the way sonoluminece works?



Let's not worry about the "energy production" for now, other then, the sound and it's application there? Are you familiar?

If one holds to the bulk perspective and you would have to know what I mean by the bulk, then, such concentrations would have held perspectve to the gatherings and created the circumstances for new universe to be borne?



If one types in the "search function" at the top left hand corner the word "bulk," of the blog as I did, with the word, "sound," then a page will come up that will help explain that term. How it is used. The Picture and it's link will be most useful as well.



Ah.

Mr. Plato has a clue! ...of course. ;O)

I do thank you for the references, sir. They were new to me. I greatly appreciate them. The sonoluminesce reference was particularly interesting!!!

Sound - 'music' - impacts each of us on a very fundamental level. To deny that sound and noises can be plotted mathematically on a musical scale is to enter into the realms of pathological science. At this point, the evidence has become irrefutable. Most people will only accept what they already believe to be true...even scientists. When we study anything - conciousness - we must first examine ourselves before we examine any other.

I have work to do, so I will not be returning to this board in the forseeable future. I have learned what I needed to know.

I sincerely thank you all for your time and consideration.

Once again, what raw research that I am willing to share at this point, I'm willing to share freely and without caveat.


Warren "Bones" Bonesteel
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wrbones@rap.midco.net

"Sit down before facts like a child, and be prepared to give up every preconceived notion, follow humbly wherever and to whatever abysses Nature leads, or you shall learn nothing."
- T.H. Huxley (who was politically an elitist socialist...can you say"oligarchy"?)

" I am by nature a mild and conservative man. The problem before me was so complex, however, that I had to give up everything I knew to be true in order to derive my solution."
- Max Planck (Planck's Constant) ....Whose "constant" has proven to be...less than constant.

(To a man who can think for himself, both quotes say quite a little bit about consciousness and about how we perceive reality.)
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Rick
post May 08, 2006, 11:50 AM
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QUOTE(OnlyNow @ May 06, 07:17 AM) *
Just because every noise, sound and vibration is part of the musical scale doesn't automatically make these elements music in and of themselves. To say that all noise is music is like saying that all words are poetry. ...

This discussion reminds me of the "Bad Poetry Contest" begun some time ago here by Ambient Snowflake. We learned just how hard it is to write truly bad poetry. I finished well behind the pack on that one.

Perhaps what some have in mind with "non-musical sound" is "bad music." If good music is a well ordered construction, then other types of signals that are less pleasing to some human ears might be music of the "bad" variety.

Take painting for another example. Is bad art not art? How ugly can a painting get? Is one artist more skilled than another in the ability to produce ugly paintings? Why would any one want to? Is this a question that can lead to any good?
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post May 08, 2006, 06:44 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ May 08, 11:50 AM) *

QUOTE(OnlyNow @ May 06, 07:17 AM) *
Just because every noise, sound and vibration is part of the musical scale doesn't automatically make these elements music in and of themselves. To say that all noise is music is like saying that all words are poetry. ...

This discussion reminds me of the "Bad Poetry Contest" begun some time ago here by Ambient Snowflake. We learned just how hard it is to write truly bad poetry. I finished well behind the pack on that one.

Perhaps what some have in mind with "non-musical sound" is "bad music." If good music is a well ordered construction, then other types of signals that are less pleasing to some human ears might be music of the "bad" variety.

Take painting for another example. Is bad art not art? How ugly can a painting get? Is one artist more skilled than another in the ability to produce ugly paintings? Why would any one want to? Is this a question that can lead to any good?

Are you trying to say that art is in the eye of the beholder?

I wasn't really saying that bad art (including bad music) isn't art. Basically, art can't be restrictive. However, if we didn't have some kind of distinction to separate art from that which is not art, then we wouldn't have art. Would we? Almost by definition, art requires an artist...at least I think so. And this may or may not require much talent or input. I once saw something on TV about a painter who did all his "work" by dipping several snails into various hues of paint and then unleashing the creatures on a canvass. As for "bad" poetry... Oddly enough, just today, I came across a website of haikus consisting of words that are selected completely randomly from a computer program that follows no rules whatsoever other than the 5-7-5 syllable structure. Yes, the slug-pic is a bona fide painting, and the compu-ku is poetry. In both cases, someone actually conceptualized and produced the end product. In this spirit, I suppose that if you made a recording consisting of nothing but traffic noise and cows burping, this would become music the minute someone--anyone--labeled it as such.

I happen to think that music is basically some noise created and/or assembled by an artist. Maybe I'm wrong. One could argue that, in the spirit if the "beholder," all noise must be music because Warren Bonesteel thinks all noise is music. No artist or distinction required. But isn't this is exactly like saying that everything we see or taste or feel or smell is art? Is everything art? The idea is growing on me...
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post May 09, 2006, 10:55 AM
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Interesting idea. When we perceive something, it can be argued that our mind constructs the perception using the raw material of the input stimulus. Therefore we are always participating in the art, and removing the artist from the input leaves the artist of the receiver alone by herself with her perception.
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post Aug 01, 2017, 11:14 PM
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I love music. I think good composition and best lyrics makes your music perfect.
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