former Christian searching for understanding of God, unsure where to begin Options

[graywulf]

Ah Joseph, you get part of it right and part of it wrong. With Indian there is no god and their is no gods. There is no formal religion with rules and things. There is only spirit, the spirit of all things in everything,

With the Hindu Teachings, and the Teachings of Jesus there are no Gods that are other than the Spirit of all things.
In the isolation of the American Indians belief (at least as you represent it), they have not been able to integrate the awareness into other peoples cultural experience of the spirit in all things. So I understand your inability to grasp the bigger picture as it appears through the eyes of the great spirit through those other guys...
If you could understand the nature of spirituality in its diversity you might understand the spirit of all things as it exists under the name of God, rather than trying to insist spirit doesn't or can't live with the name of God if it serves human evolution
Just 'cause an American Indian don't understand it or believe it don't mean it aint so.
If they'd only listened to to those other people...

You people do not listen to the Indian now.

You will have to be a bit more intelligent when speaking to someone when talking to them. Saying to someone "you people" when beginning a conversation isn't likely to hold their attention, not to mention it's just rude... Also you might try remembering names rather than calling people names of your own choice...

You did not listen to the Indian in any century.

I can listen in this century, and I was an Indian in another century so I had no problem listening, it was getting the other Indians to shut up and listen that was the problem... Talk talk talk, to the trees, to the squirrels....

Did you know that trees talk? Well, they do. They talk to each other, and they will talk to you if you listen. Trouble is, white people don't listen.

There you go making generalizations again.
Do all Indians talk to trees, like the ones who work at the local Casino? The ones I talk to (Indians that is) never mention talking to trees, and they don't address me as you people either.
I did talk to a tree tho once, unfortunately it couldn't tell me more than a tree could know. When I asked it how it experienced the world around it it said, "not like you can, I'm only a tree."

They never learned to listen to the Indians so I don't suppose they will listen to other voices in nature.

Have you met all the White people or are you just speaking of the ones you haven't been able to convince in listening to you because you addressed them as you people?

But I have learned a lot from trees, sometimes about the weather, sometimes about animals, sometimes about the great spirit.

I think you need to talk to someone who can give you more than tree knowledge, like someone who actually knows and lives with the spirit in all things all the time. Then instead of living with a couple of pieces of the puzzle you might have a greater idea of what the pieces look like when they are actually put together.
But you might have to bone up on your communication skills and the use of the English language.
The way you talk they might think your an Indian or something and not want to listen to you.
Seems like the great spirit kinda scorched your shorts a bit by taking away your ability to move the spirit into communication with others, which might help in getting someone to listen to you.

In other words if you want to truly Know spirit your kinda going to have to quit limiting it to being in just the things that are American Indian related. Get to know your Asian heritage, you might learn something. Even if you don't think knowledge other than Indian knowledge is necessary.
Get out travel a bit and see the world. See what its like outside the reservation. It's a big world out there and it has within it the nature to reveal some great things about the spirit of man including those other people and why they seem to have taken away your happy hunting grounds.
All things that are not meant to last come to an end and so it is with the American Indians rule over North America.
You weren't subjugated by the white man in the days of Western expansion of the white people 'cause you were spiritually superior, so I'd give that idea up.

Grandfather said, In the beginning was the Earth. In the beginning it was Rock. Yes, Rock is a living thing, as our Mother the Earth is a living thing. Indian people have different ideas than do non-Indians about what is alive and conscious. Everything that is, partakes of the spirit of life. This land, our land, is alive. It has a spirit. The spirit of America predates the arrival of Europeans by time beyond measure. The spirit of our land has a quality and an identity which makes it unique and separate from any othr land's spirit.

Do you know how to make poon chips?

[lucid_dream]

how old are you, graywulf? I ask because, well, I'm sure you know.

Point being, you have to have a certain spiritual maturity to appreciate hinduism as expounded upon in the gita, and to blow it off suggests otherwise.

[Rick]

Third rate romance low rent rendezvous.....

Any port in a storm.

[Joesus]

Grandfather said, In the beginning was the Earth. In the beginning it was Rock. Yes, Rock is a living thing, as our Mother the Earth is a living thing. Indian people have different ideas than do non-Indians about what is alive and conscious. Everything that is, partakes of the spirit of life. This land, our land, is alive. It has a spirit. The spirit of America predates the arrival of Europeans by time beyond measure. The spirit of our land has a quality and an identity which makes it unique and separate from any othr land's spirit.

Do you know how to make poon chips?

Grandfather said.....
Yes I suppose you would think that segue would mean as much to me as it does to you.
Unfortunately Grandfather not always wise with Experience of Spirit. Sometime Grandfather sit in Bar and shoot shit, drink government money and pass out on floor. Grandfather not know spirit inside as well as spirit in bottle.

And Yes I'm fully aware of Consciousness being in everything including Rock. You'll find that story within your far Eastern Grandfathers Teachings of Christianity and Vedic sciences as well. Actually I'll quote Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas:

"I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.
Split a piece of wood; I am there.

I'm also aware that spirit does not separate itself as Man separates spirit and life from each other and the Earth.
Before the American Indians discovered the North American Continent a much greater civilization than the Indian could have imagined lived upon that land.
It's possible some Indian got a glimpse from consciousness itself of the greater self and so like most religions began to separate their land from other lands spiritually as they separated themselves from the white man spiritually, but as I said pieces of the puzzle do not make a complete story.
You might look into the teachings of the Orient in which your heritage lies to gain more stories, to add to the story book.

You said all religions are wrong. Partly you are right if a religion is based on the stories passed on from one to another, especially if the stories are from the nervous system that has no actual experience of being immersed in spirit and living from spirit. Religion, or in your case traditional wisdom of the many "Grandfather saids" passed on and accepted without the experience becomes a pseudo idealistic label for a way of life wrapped around stories.

Tho stories can inspire us to be something they do not last like the spirit does when it is anchored within, in living communion with the body and with the insight of the all seeing universal minds eye.
Stories change with the beliefs of the ego. The spirit flows within its environment but it itself does not change from being Spirit. One, (ego) acts from belief and is constantly changing to mirror changing belief and eventually dies with its belief, and the other (God) acts and speaks with divine/Spiritual will or as the heart of spirit and never dies. You call those kind of spiritual people Shamans. Christians call them Sons of God or Christed. They become the mouthpieces of spirit.

Man clings to ideals barely able to change with the times as has the American Indian clung so tightly to a dead past, and as have many men no matter what their color.
Those that are immersed in spirit have no past, they only live right now with all their attention available and all their energy available.
Those that live from their heritage of the past have some of their energy and awareness here and now, while the rest is absorbed in memories or stories of the past, and with fear and projections of prejudice and separation in the future that never comes but is always out there somewhere in time and space.

Without the direct living communion with the One spirit that does not discriminate between men of color and culture one idealizes their lives around a story.
In communion one lives the story that often becomes the ideal of those who have not yet experienced it, because they inherently know what is inside and outside, but are still too busy thinking about Grandfather's story.

Open your mind Greyhound let in the knowledge that will eventually allow your experience to expand beyond the limitations of your current ignorance of the greater picture you still know little about.
You will necessarily have to learn the meanings of words used in those other guys religion and where they came from to lift yourself out of the small little box of Indian symbolism, and to see how Far spirit traveled beyond Indian land to impart the wisdom of spirit to the other cultures and other Grandfathers to speak without forked tongue in meaningless generalizations.
Either that or get enlightened..
Indians of the Americas or Eastern continents did not have a monopoly on Spiritual insight, no one does, not even this planet. Spirit lives in all Earths in All Galaxies, the names have just been changed for anonymity and to keep those who only know one language from coming into their neighborhood and lowering the real estate value.

Do you know how to make poon chips?

This seems more important to you than real knowledge. Go ahead and share your mastery with us of Poon so that you can feel proud like Indian who kill buffalo..
I have a sufficient amount of patience and am willing to let you waste more of our time.

Third rate romance low rent rendezvous.....

Any port in a storm.

We'll leave the light on for ya...

[graywulf]

Grandfather said, In the beginning was the Earth. In the beginning it was Rock. Yes, Rock is a living thing, as our Mother the Earth is a living thing. Indian people have different ideas than do non-Indians about what is alive and conscious. Everything that is, partakes of the spirit of life. This land, our land, is alive. It has a spirit. The spirit of America predates the arrival of Europeans by time beyond measure. The spirit of our land has a quality and an identity which makes it unique and separate from any othr land's spirit.

Do you know how to make poon chips?

Grandfather said.....
Yes I suppose you would think that segue would mean as much to me as it does to you.
Unfortunately Grandfather not always wise with Experience of Spirit. Sometime Grandfather sit in Bar and shoot shit, drink government money and pass out on floor. Grandfather not know spirit inside as well as spirit in bottle.

And Yes I'm fully aware of Consciousness being in everything including Rock. You'll find that story within your far Eastern Grandfathers Teachings of Christianity and Vedic sciences as well. Actually I'll quote Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas:

"I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.
Split a piece of wood; I am there.

I'm also aware that spirit does not separate itself as Man separates spirit and life from each other and the Earth.
Before the American Indians discovered the North American Continent a much greater civilization than the Indian could have imagined lived upon that land.
It's possible some Indian got a glimpse from consciousness itself of the greater self and so like most religions began to separate their land from other lands spiritually as they separated themselves from the white man spiritually, but as I said pieces of the puzzle do not make a complete story.
You might look into the teachings of the Orient in which your heritage lies to gain more stories, to add to the story book.

You said all religions are wrong. Partly you are right if a religion is based on the stories passed on from one to another, especially if the stories are from the nervous system that has no actual experience of being immersed in spirit and living from spirit. Religion, or in your case traditional wisdom of the many "Grandfather saids" passed on and accepted without the experience becomes a pseudo idealistic label for a way of life wrapped around stories.

Tho stories can inspire us to be something they do not last like the spirit does when it is anchored within, in living communion with the body and with the insight of the all seeing universal minds eye.
Stories change with the beliefs of the ego. The spirit flows within its environment but it itself does not change from being Spirit. One, (ego) acts from belief and is constantly changing to mirror changing belief and eventually dies with its belief, and the other (God) acts and speaks with divine/Spiritual will or as the heart of spirit and never dies. You call those kind of spiritual people Shamans. Christians call them Sons of God or Christed. They become the mouthpieces of spirit.

Man clings to ideals barely able to change with the times as has the American Indian clung so tightly to a dead past, and as have many men no matter what their color.
Those that are immersed in spirit have no past, they only live right now with all their attention available and all their energy available.
Those that live from their heritage of the past have some of their energy and awareness here and now, while the rest is absorbed in memories or stories of the past, and with fear and projections of prejudice and separation in the future that never comes but is always out there somewhere in time and space.

Without the direct living communion with the One spirit that does not discriminate between men of color and culture one idealizes their lives around a story.
In communion one lives the story that often becomes the ideal of those who have not yet experienced it, because they inherently know what is inside and outside, but are still too busy thinking about Grandfather's story.

Open your mind Greyhound let in the knowledge that will eventually allow your experience to expand beyond the limitations of your current ignorance of the greater picture you still know little about.
You will necessarily have to learn the meanings of words used in those other guys religion and where they came from to lift yourself out of the small little box of Indian symbolism, and to see how Far spirit traveled beyond Indian land to impart the wisdom of spirit to the other cultures and other Grandfathers to speak without forked tongue in meaningless generalizations.
Either that or get enlightened..
Indians of the Americas or Eastern continents did not have a monopoly on Spiritual insight, no one does, not even this planet. Spirit lives in all Earths in All Galaxies, the names have just been changed for anonymity and to keep those who only know one language from coming into their neighborhood and lowering the real estate value.

Do you know how to make poon chips?

This seems more important to you than real knowledge. Go ahead and share your mastery with us of Poon so that you can feel proud like Indian who kill buffalo..
I have a sufficient amount of patience and am willing to let you waste more of our time.

Third rate romance low rent rendezvous.....

Any port in a storm.

We'll leave the light on for ya...

Oh, great wise one. So, this is what you think is spiritual truth..................





Lord Ganesha
Lord Ganesha - the Hindu deity in a human form but with the head of an elephant - represents the power of the Supreme Being that removes obstacles and ensures success in human endeavors. For this reason, Hindus worship Ganesha first before beginning any religious, spiritual or worldly activity. In Hindu mythology, Lord Ganesha is the first son of Lord Shiva and the Divine Mother Parvati. Their second son is Lord Subramanya and their daughter is Jyoti. As explained below, the portrayal of Lord Ganesha as the blend of human and animal parts symbolizes the ideals of perfection as conceived by Hindu sages and illustrates some philosophical concepts of profound spiritual significance.
Elephant head, wide mouth, and large ears: the large head of an elephant symbolizes wisdom, understanding, and a discriminating intellect that one must possess to attain perfection in life. The wide mouth represents the natural human desire to enjoy life in the world. The large ears signify that a perfect person is the one who possesses a great capacity to listen to others and assimilate ideas.
The trunk and two tusks with the left tusk broken: there is no known human instrument that has an operating range as wide as that of an elephant's trunk. It can uproot a tree and yet lift a needle off the ground. Likewise, the human mind must be strong enough to face the ups and downs of the external world and yet delicate enough to explore the subtle realms of the inner world. The two tusks denote the two aspects of the human personality, wisdom and emotion. The right tusk represents wisdom and the left tusk represents emotion. The broken left tusk conveys the idea that one must conquer emotions with wisdom to attain perfection.
Elephant eyes: the elephant eyes are said to possess natural deceptiveness that allows them to perceive objects to be bigger than what they really are. Thus the elephant eyes symbolize the idea that even if an individual gets "bigger and bigger" in wealth and wisdom, he should perceive others to be bigger than himself; that is, surrender one's pride and attain humility.
The four arms and various objects in the four hands: the four arms indicate that the Lord is omnipresent and omnipotent. The left side of the body symbolizes emotion and the right side symbolizes reason. An axe in the upper left hand and a lotus in the upper right hand signify that in order to attain spiritual perfection, one should cut worldly attachments and conquer emotions. This enables one to live in the world without being affected by earthly temptations, just as a lotus remains in water but is not affected by it. A tray of Laddus (a popular snack) near the Lord denotes that He bestows wealth and prosperity upon His devotees. The lower right hand is shown in a blessing pose, which signifies that Ganesha always blesses His devotees.
A human body with a big belly: the human body possesses a human heart, which is a symbol of kindness and compassion toward all. Ganesha's body is usually portrayed wearing red and yellow clothes. Yellow symbolizes purity, peace and truthfulness. Red symbolizes the activity in the world. These are the qualities of a perfect person who perforrns all duties in the world, with purity, peace, and truthfulness. The big belly signifies that a perfect individual must have a large capacity to face all pleasant and unpleasant experiences of the world.
A mouse sitting near the feet of Ganesha and gazing at the tray of Laddus: a mouse symbalizes the ego that can nibble all that is good and noble in a person. A mouse sitting near the feet of Ganesha indicates that a perfect person is one who has conquered his (or her) ego. A mouse gazing at the Laddus, but not consuming them, denotes that a purified or controlled ego can live in the world without being affected by the worldly temptations. The mouse is also the vehicle of Ganesha, signifying that one must control ego in order for wisdom to shine forth.
Right foot dangling over the left foot: as stated above, the left side of the body symbolizes emotion and the right side symbolizes reason and knowledge. The right foot dangling over the left foot illustrates that in order to live a successful life one should utilize knowledge and reason to overcome emotions.
- Bansi Pandit

Pictures


Lord Ganesh (Ganpati)


Bhagwaan Ganesha and Laxmi




Kashmiri Overseas Association Hindu Deities

[lucid_dream]

graywulf, I think you're taking the multiplicity of gods in hinduism too literally. It is monotheistic. Read the Bhagavad Gita, and try relating it to your own experience and awareness.

[graywulf]

graywulf, I think you're taking the multiplicity of gods in hinduism too literally. It is monotheistic. Read the Bhagavad Gita, and try relating it to your own experience and awareness.

I take it as it is. I do not interpret it, like a Christian interpret his religion into many religions that bnelieve many things. Christianity is politheeism. Hindu religion is politheeism. You take what you want. You change what you want. You end up with nothing.

Indian religion is a good way, as I said in beginning. I not say only way, I say a very good way. You misquote me. Indian way is simple. no politheeism.

[Joesus]

Oh, great wise one. So, this is what you think is spiritual truth..................

No that'd be what you think, I think is spiritual truth.


Thinking too much of Poon has taken away your sensibility and rationality.

[Joesus]

I take it as it is. I do not interpret it, like a Christian interpret his religion

You interpret it like an Indian, who thinks they don't interpret it like a Christian but does!

Christianity is politheeism. Hindu religion is politheeism.

The word is polytheism, and this particular Indian interpretation of Christianity and Hinduism is because you take what you want, leave what you don't want, and begin with knowing nothing.
Both religions are based on the Science of Yoga, Union with One Spirit called God.

Indian religion is a good way, as I said in beginning.

In the beginning you said all religions were false and Indian way was not a religion. Now Indian way is a religion?
I think you would have to know all religions to make a judgment call regarding any one of them.
Since you don't know them all (obviously very little about the ones you have written about here), how do you know Indian religion is not the only way? What other way is good way?

C'mon tell us the truth. By the way you spell and organize your stories... you're what, 10 or 13?

[graywulf]

I take it as it is. I do not interpret it, like a Christian interpret his religion

You interpret it like an Indian, who thinks they don't interpret it like a Christian but does!

Christianity is politheeism. Hindu religion is politheeism.

The word is polytheism, and this particular Indian interpretation of Christianity and Hinduism is because you take what you want, leave what you don't want, and begin with knowing nothing.
Both religions are based on the Science of Yoga, Union with One Spirit called God.

Indian religion is a good way, as I said in beginning.

In the beginning you said all religions were false and Indian way was not a religion. Now Indian way is a religion?
I think you would have to know all religions to make a judgment call regarding any one of them.
Since you don't know them all (obviously very little about the ones you have written about here), how do you know Indian religion is not the only way? What other way is good way?

C'mon tell us the truth. By the way you spell and organize your stories... you're what, 10 or 13?

Oh wise Joseph,

Thank you for your ad hominen attacks. You are very good at attacking the messenger and not the message. Also, you always twist the meanings of what others say to suit your pseudo-logical approach. You speak with a forked tongue, eat poon chips and spank monkey.

[Joesus]

I can only reflect what you are actually giving me. You will have to be much more intelligent about delivering your message than to play the victim to the white man and to make sweeping statements about things you obviously know nothing about.

Get off the poon chips and masturbation thing already. There are better things to fill your mind with.

[graywulf]

[quote name='Rick' date='Sep 22, 2008, 03:57 PM' post='92754']
From Dictionary.com:

"unfounded positiveness in matters of opinion; arrogant assertion of opinions as truths"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dogmatism




http://www.hindugallery.com/

[Rick]

We'll leave the light on for ya...

Thanks. I appreciate it.

[Joesus]

American Indian Myths

American Indian tribes share many myths. If a myth is exclusive to one tribe, the tribe is listed in parenthesis.

The Great Spirit in some form or name is found in most American Indian beliefs. It is the unknown power that is found in everything�the air, a rock, the sky. The Great Spirit is often seen as the great creator of life and the universe, aided by other spirits who are in charge of more specific things, such as stars, water, or trees. The Cheyenne call the Great Spirit Heammawihio; the Shawnee, Finisher; and the Algonquin, Gitche Manitou.

Coyote was a popular spirit among western tribes such as the Navajo, Zuni, Sioux, and Chinook. A sly trickster, he made life more interesting for people. Coyote was responsible for sorrow and death, but also for the creation of humans and the Milky Way. There are many stories of Coyote’s mischievous trickery and his contributions to the world.

Raven seemed to have his beak into everything, and like Coyote, was somewhat wily. He could change into a bird, a human or an animal. Raven could bring both good and evil. Always hungry, his search for food often got him into a lot of trouble. Raven was found mainly in Pacific Northwest and southeastern Alaska tribes.

Skywoman (Iroquois) fell through a hole in the sky to a dark watery Earth populated only by animals. Birds caught her and put her on a giant turtle’s back. The turtle grew bigger and became the land. The hole Skywoman fell through brought light to the world, and the beginning of Earth as we know it.

Kachinas (Hopi) are spirits that lived in and controlled everything�the sky, water, plants, animals. The kachinas protected humans and brought them good fortune. Today, the Hopi give their children kachina dolls to teach them about different spirits.

Aningan (Eskimo) is the most important Eskimo god and the Moon spirit. He was a hunter and he also chased his sister, the Sun, around the North Pole during the brief Arctic summer. She was unable to go over the horizon and the Sun never set.

The Breathmaker (Seminole) or Creator, made humans out of clay. He also blew across the heavens and created the Milky Way. When a good Seminole died the Big Dipper became a boat and sailed the soul across the Milky Way to the City in the Sky.

Windigo (Ojibwa, Algonquin) was a huge evil demon who wandered the winter woods in search of humans to eat. In a sort of werewolf or vampire way, if a person was bitten by Windigo, he turned into one.

[Joesus]

We'll leave the light on for ya...

Thanks. I appreciate it.

Don't mention it.

[graywulf]

I can only reflect what you are actually giving me. You will have to be much more intelligent about delivering your message than to play the victim to the white man and to make sweeping statements about things you obviously know nothing about.

Get off the poon chips and masturbation thing already. There are better things to fill your mind with.

Goodbye Joe,

You not very smart guy, like you think. You are full of buffalo crap.
You should take some Indian herbs to sharpen up your mind and get you off your monkey god delusions.

graywulf

[lucid_dream]

Wow, Indian mythology is quite imaginative, like any other mythology though.

Bye, graywulf! Don't let the door hit your ego on the way out!

[graywulf]

Wow, Indian mythology is quite imaginative, like any other mythology though.

Bye, graywulf! Don't let the door hit your ego on the way out!

\

Indian beliefs focus almost entirely on the idea of the Great Mystery of Being--the personal energy that is in every being and animates the world we live in.
Vine Deloria

[Joesus]

From wiki:
Deloria was criticized for his embrace of American Indian creationism. Deloria often cited Christian creationist authors in support of his views relating to science. Deloria also relied on Hindu creationists such as Michael Cremo.[2]

Deloria was further criticized for his reliance on authors of pseudoscience such as Zecharia Sitchin and Immanuel Velikovsky. Deloria cited Sitchin to argue that white people were created by space aliens.[3] Deloria also believed that dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time, and that the stegosaurus still existed in the 19th century.[4].

The Rocky Mountain News berated Deloria for "the utterly wacky nature of some of his views,� and “his contempt for much science."[5] John Whittaker referred to Deloria's "Red Earth White Lies" as "a wretched piece of Native American creationist claptrap that has all the flaws of the Biblical creationists he disdains...Deloria's style is drearily familiar to anyone who has read the Biblical creationist literature...At the core is a wishful attempt to discredit all science because some facts clash with belief systems. A few points will suffice to show how similar Deloria is to outspoken creationist author Duane Gish or any of his ilk.

I'm especially liking the part of being reliant on Hindu creationist Michael Cremo.
Evidently he wasn't as subjectively grossed out as Greyhound, regarding the Hindu philosophy...

[graywulf]

[quote name='Joesus' date='Sep 25, 2008, 04:10 PM' post='92895']
From wiki:
Deloria was criticized for his embrace of American Indian creationism. Deloria often cited Christian creationist authors in support of his views relating to science. Deloria also relied on Hindu creationists such as Michael Cremo.[2]

Deloria was further criticized for his reliance on authors of pseudoscience such as Zecharia Sitchin and Immanuel Velikovsky. Deloria cited Sitchin to argue that white people were created by space aliens.[3] Deloria also believed that dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time, and that the stegosaurus still existed in the 19th century.[4].

The Rocky Mountain News berated Deloria for "the utterly wacky nature of some of his views,� and “his contempt for much science."[5] John Whittaker referred to Deloria's "Red Earth White Lies" as "a wretched piece of Native American creationist claptrap that has all the flaws of the Biblical creationists he disdains...Deloria's style is drearily familiar to anyone who has read the Biblical creationist literature...At the core is a wishful attempt to discredit all science because some facts clash with belief systems. A few points will suffice to show how similar Deloria is to outspoken creationist author Duane Gish or any of his ilk.

I'm especially liking the part of being reliant on Hindu creationist Michael Cremo.
Evidently he wasn't as subjectively grossed out as Greyhound, regarding the Hind

If we are to be on this earth without destroying or being destroyed, we must learn that we are not master, but brother/sister. We must learn that it is not our place to gather into our hands dominion over our brothers and sisters, ancestors and descendants. We have a responsibility to those who went before, and to those who share our present, and to those who will come after. It is time that we were about our parent's business. And our parents business is to learn about our responsibilities, and to begin to exercise them.
edris head

Joeysus,
I am so glad you can read Wikipedia

[Joesus]

One of my many, but not so famous talents.

[graywulf]

One of my many, but not so famous talents.

Do you have original talents?

[Lindsay]

Rick, Sept 21, 2008, 12:11 PM
There are by far more people on earth now than ever before. It doesn't seem logical (perhaps fair is a better word) to me that some of us should have past lives and some of us should not. And if some of us have past lives, that raises the question of the mechanism for past life information storage and transfer. How does that work?

ABOUT REINCARNATION, which I look at with an open mind and without being doctrinaire: Rick, surely it is possible that some people are here as new comers--here to take grade one, so to speak. Like all those ahead of them they will get the the opportunity to go on to grade two, etc. There are several passages in the Bible, including the Book of Job implying the acceptance the possibility of reincarnation.

As I understand the process: those of us who take the opportunity to complete all earthly grades will eventually graduate to the spiritual realms. BTW, for some of us who are slower than others this could take longer. And keep in mind that reincarnation is not necessarily considered to be a reward, it is simply an opportunity to get back to study and repeat our grades, if necessary. Spirituality, or as one poet put it: "Heaven is not reached by a single bound, there is a ladder by which we rise, from the lowly earth to the vaulted skies; and we climb that ladder rung by rung."

About information storage: It is now common knowledge that, somatically speaking, there are physical genes, which determine the kind of physical body we all have. I find it logical to accept that there could also be psychological and pneumatological genes. For example, as a very young child I could draw and paint--the only one in family of eight who could do this. Without taking any lessons, over the years I have sold quite a number of paintings.

My wife and I tried to interest our two children--a daughter and son--in doing art. My daughter, now 52, and son, now 49, both ignored my attempts. She went to university, graduated in dance and drama, had two short-lived marriages then, on an impulse she left Toronto and went to west, Victoria and then Tofino, BC --an artist colony. She told me that she had the strong feeling that in one of her former lives she lived, as native, on the west coast. My son became a pro eclectic musician and, to support his art, a half-time teaching assistant.

She met and married a "starving" artist--a carver, with two young children who needed a mother--who eventually became successful. Then she started to draw, paint and write, with success. Her husband also taught her to carve. This too has met with success. And together they built, not just a floating house, but an estate--a number of buildings, including a floating garden . Fifty percent of the materials used to build the estate were bartered and paid for by their art. Barter works for those who know how to do it.
YouTube: LIFE IN A FLOATING HOME
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDqbfiejLdM

[Joesus]

One of my many, but not so famous talents.

Do you have original talents?

Only one.
No one else can be exactly like me, so I have the only talent to be exactly as I am.
For what it's worth, it's all relative.

[Rick]

... There are several passages in the Bible, including the Book of Job implying the acceptance the possibility of reincarnation. ...

Human memory is highly unreliable. For example, it's well known now that children can be led by "helpful psychologists" into false memories of molestation. I suspect that memories of "past lives" are merely the result of an imaginative subconscious process. This process may be supported by wishful thinking, the unconscious mind's fulfilment of a desire for immortality.

[Joesus]

The condition of the mind and body directly affects the clarity of memory, that is for sure.
If one however is able to remove all of the stress from the mind and body memory can become very clear.

It doesn't take a hypnotist to dig beneath layers of belief and illusion to find something that is there or isn't there if the nervous system is clear.
Also if the hypnotist/psychologist isn't clear, he/she will not be able to discern the difference between true or false information.

[Lindsay]

THE BAD NEW IS
Rick, as you say, "Human memory is highly unreliable. "
This is why us artistic types like to keep journals and record the things we are doing. In this regard, this and other forums are helpful. But what has this got to do with past lives? Without any prompting from us, Catherine did her own thing, which has led to quite a career.

You add, "For example, it's well known now that children can be led by "helpful psychologists"[quote] into false memories of molestation."

When you say "helpful" I trust you are obviously being sarcastic, eh?

You say, "I suspect that memories of "past lives" are merely the result of an imaginative subconscious process."

Me? I suspect that the subconscious mind (psyche), allowed to operate without the guidance of the conscious mind (pneuma), is the cause of much unnecessary suffering and pain.

You say, "This process may be supported by wishful thinking, the unconscious mind's fulfillment of a desire for immortality."

I say that this is the cause of more unnecessary suffering and pain--either inflicted on the self and/or, depending on the circumstances, on society as a whole.

THE GOOD NEWS IS: There is good news, if we just listen for it; and it comes from within our our being and awareness of Being.

BTW, I wonder how many have taken a few moments and listened with an open mind to what Eckhart Tolle actually says about the importance of being fully aware of the power of the NOW, and of Being?

If there is any truth in what he says, this is surely good news. The good news is that it is not necessary for us to allow ourselves to be victims of our nature and nurture, or our heredity and environment--past or present. By accessing the power of the now, NOW, we do not need to allow ourselves to be victims on the strings of some master--be it a god, a devil or a corrupt therapist.

Please keep in mind that I am not touting ET as the one and only guru with the one and only and positive message about the power of living in the NOW.

He is just one of many, past and present, including Budda (meaning the enlightened one), Lao Tsu (meaning the way), Jesus (meaning the saving I am) Mohammad (meaning the revered one), the Dali Lama, even William James, Carl Jung, Carl Rogers, Victor Frankl, Dale Carnegie who over the years have gone beyond what soma and psyche, on their own, have to offer in understanding what it means to be moral and spiritually humane beings. There were also some great women mystics, like Hildegarde of Bingen http://chi.gospelcom.net/DAILYF/2001/09/da...9-17-2001.shtml

[Rick]

... Without any prompting from us, Catherine did her own thing, which has led to quite a career.

What has that got to do with fictional past lives? It just shows she's human and has free will.

[trojan_libido]

Mr. Dream, you are most wrong. Hinduism is not advanced, it, like Christianity is a false structure on underly spirit. It deviates far from what is basic.

The Great Spirit, The Holy Spirit, The Brahman, if you can't see the correlations here then I'd give up.

American Indian belief is a form of Animism. The Great Spirit in all things. Its a belief I share, although I don't practice any form of religion whatsoever. I also dont try to impress, befriend or be consoled by a physical process with prayer. I realise the spirit is in me and acting through me. I am God, as are you.

I dont ever expect to see an Angel except in my own mind, possibly with the use of lucid dreaming techniques or sacraments. I can't understand how a person with the spirituality of Animism and peyote/san pedro sacramental use can end up so closed off. So much for shamanic practices opening your mind...

@Rick/Lindsay: I dont believe reincarnation can be taken too literally. But what about our DNA? Its the thread that ties all of the organisms on the planet together. As a species we've been through incredible changes, from microbial to fish to amphibious to land etc. etc. If there is a spiritual Askandi Records, then it will lie there. Also, our attributes are merged with our lovers into children. This continuous thread is a form of DNA immortality.

[Rick]

@Rick/Lindsay: I dont believe reincarnation can be taken too literally. But what about our DNA? Its the thread that ties all of the organisms on the planet together. As a species we've been through incredible changes, from microbial to fish to amphibious to land etc. etc. If there is a spiritual Askandi Records, then it will lie there. Also, our attributes are merged with our lovers into children. This continuous thread is a form of DNA immortality.

No argument there. My dispute is with those who assert that individual life experiences are preserved after death somehow. DNA replication is a well known mechanism. There is no known mechanism for mind preservation, so the burden is on those who assert it exists.

Pantheism is animism without the false magic. Atheism is pantheism without the divinity. An animistic world can be distinguished from the pantheistic one by observing that there is no evidence for the existence of magic (supernatural activity). How do we observe (confirm or deny) the distinction between the pantheistic and atheistic universes? It may not be possible, and if so, then agnosticism is the best we can do.