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> former Christian searching for understanding of God, unsure where to begin
Rawlinson
post Sep 20, 2008, 04:19 AM
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Im not completely sure if I am posting on the right forum, but for starters I was a christian for a period of time and became confused on how the Bible should be interpreted this lead me to believe that I may be wrong. I then went onto this website and learnt of the Indian folk-tale of the elephant and the three blind men. The point of that story was that there are many interpretations (religions) but they are all of the same thing and only through understanding this can one totally understand God. After reading this I felt that I understood. I started looking into Hindu philosophy and the concept of reincarnation which I now feel is right. However, I am still confused as to where I should begin, I have contemplated reading the Bhagavad Gita and other Hindu literature so as to understand because as far as I know (or think I know) already, in Hinduism, no belief should be considered wrong as they all stem from Brahman who is within everything. This is why I have considered Hinduism.

Is it possible that I can understand God through Hinduism, or should I look to other scripture and consider Hinduism as part of it all? Basically, I am searching for total understanding of God, and I don't know where to begin. I would like it if your answers would not dictate what I should do as I would like to understand myself but I feel I need a 'sign-post at the crossroads' as it were to point down the right direction without forcing me along the way.

Thanks
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lucid_dream
post Sep 20, 2008, 08:19 AM
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the gita is a good place to start
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Joesus
post Sep 20, 2008, 10:58 AM
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Sounds like you already had a start..
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Rawlinson
post Sep 20, 2008, 11:12 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 20, 2008, 07:58 PM) *

Sounds like you already had a start..


Thanks for the input so far, ill take into consideration what you've said.
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Rick
post Sep 21, 2008, 12:11 PM
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QUOTE(Rawlinson @ Sep 20, 2008, 05:19 AM) *
... I started looking into Hindu philosophy and the concept of reincarnation which I now feel is right. ...

There are by far more people on earth now than ever before. It doesn't seem logical (perhaps fair is a better word) to me that some of us should have past lives and some of us should not. And if some of us have past lives, that raises the question of the mechanism for past life information storage and transfer. How does that work?
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lucid_dream
post Sep 21, 2008, 12:28 PM
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i agree with Rick. Also, reincarnation is not part of Hinduism. Read the Gita.

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Joesus
post Sep 21, 2008, 01:16 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Sep 21, 2008, 08:11 PM) *

QUOTE(Rawlinson @ Sep 20, 2008, 05:19 AM) *
... I started looking into Hindu philosophy and the concept of reincarnation which I now feel is right. ...

There are by far more people on earth now than ever before. It doesn't seem logical (perhaps fair is a better word) to me that some of us should have past lives and some of us should not. And if some of us have past lives, that raises the question of the mechanism for past life information storage and transfer. How does that work?

You are still assuming this particular planet hosts all of the intellectual life in the universe.
It's like living in the United states and thinking primarily that all life that is important only lives on one continent. Without actual experience of the other cultures and beliefs the projections of what is relevant is limited to a single experience.
Hinduism does not stress reincarnation as does say Buddhism but it does not leave out the relevance of the soul being timeless and with many faces. The relevance to timelessness or the now is much more prominent in the Hindu philosophy as it was originally taught than any relevance to the many separated manifestations.
Hinduism stresses the reality of ONE consciousness with everything relative being THAT!!
The symbolism of the Gods that exist within the Hindu culture are representations of manifest consciousness that exists in the relative world. Creation, destruction and the underlying presence that keeps things moving is symbolized by Brahma as the Creator, Siva as the Destroyer and Vishnu as the Maintainer. They are also called the 3 Gunas responsible for everything in creation. The Gunas playing upon the Gunas is creativity in action.

In the relative world of the ego most identify themselves as one being. Born to live and die.
Consciousness itself does not die with the body because it is the underlying nature that supports the individual life of the relative world and also engages in the experience at the same time.
Time being relative but not a boundary that contain consciousness itself, all souls being projections of the One consciousness live in potential and experience at the same time.
Time and space as we know it unfolds step by step like a frame by frame sequence on a film reel but we can pick up the reel and call it a movie. And we can stack many movies within a room, and if we wish.. view them at the same time or individually. Each movie could be likened to the individual experience of a life compressed between birth and death or a beginning and an end. This would be closer to the actual reality of consciousness in manifestation as we experience it in the world around us.
This place in time and space is more like a bus station where we get off to take care of business, and at this particular stop in time and space is a projected event which can effect an evolutionary change within the individual soul. That advent is one reason so many are here on this planet at this time.

If you assume all life began here in this world called earth, that would be presumptuous and based on information solely gathered within the confines of relative experience of this earth and all time and space as it is understood from the level of scientific understanding and popular democratic interface.
The Science of Yoga however is not based on these relative rules and boundaries but the greater experience of consciousness itself without the boundaries of egoic reference.

Also there are many translations of the Gita. Not all of which are translated from greater consciousness just as not all scripture in the bible is translated from literal meaning and understanding of the actual experience of God or of Jesus.
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Orbz
post Sep 22, 2008, 09:18 AM
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QUOTE(Rawlinson @ Sep 20, 2008, 08:19 PM) *

Basically, I am searching for total understanding of God, and I don't know where to begin.

Why not start at the beginning? Don't underestimate how the current scientific understanding of the universe's origin can let one know another aspect of 'God'.
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Rick
post Sep 22, 2008, 12:30 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 21, 2008, 02:16 PM) *
You are still assuming this particular planet hosts all of the intellectual life in the universe. ... If you assume all life began here in this world called earth, that would be presumptuous and based on information solely gathered within the confines of relative experience of this earth and all time and space as it is understood from the level of scientific understanding and popular democratic interface.

If there are multiple civilizations in the universe, one of them had to be the first one to evolve. Maybe we are that first one.
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graywulf
post Sep 22, 2008, 03:24 PM
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QUOTE(Rawlinson @ Sep 20, 2008, 04:19 AM) *

Im not completely sure if I am posting on the right forum, but for starters I was a christian for a period of time and became confused on how the Bible should be interpreted this lead me to believe that I may be wrong. I then went onto this website and learnt of the Indian folk-tale of the elephant and the three blind men. The point of that story was that there are many interpretations (religions) but they are all of the same thing and only through understanding this can one totally understand God. After reading this I felt that I understood. I started looking into Hindu philosophy and the concept of reincarnation which I now feel is right. However, I am still confused as to where I should begin, I have contemplated reading the Bhagavad Gita and other Hindu literature so as to understand because as far as I know (or think I know) already, in Hinduism, no belief should be considered wrong as they all stem from Brahman who is within everything. This is why I have considered Hinduism.

Is it possible that I can understand God through Hinduism, or should I look to other scripture and consider Hinduism as part of it all? Basically, I am searching for total understanding of God, and I don't know where to begin. I would like it if your answers would not dictate what I should do as I would like to understand myself but I feel I need a 'sign-post at the crossroads' as it were to point down the right direction without forcing me along the way.

Thanks




Rawlinson,

You need understand that no one can understand God. First, you must understand yourself. A very good way to start is with the American Indian. My people lived in nature, and with nature and had a relationship with Mother Earth and The Great Spirit, Wanken Tonka.

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lucid_dream
post Sep 22, 2008, 03:33 PM
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has a ring of dogmatism, graywulf
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graywulf
post Sep 22, 2008, 03:40 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Sep 22, 2008, 03:33 PM) *

has a ring of dogmatism, graywulf


What do you mean by dogmatism.
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Rick
post Sep 22, 2008, 03:57 PM
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From Dictionary.com:

"unfounded positiveness in matters of opinion; arrogant assertion of opinions as truths"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dogmatism
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Joesus
post Sep 22, 2008, 04:18 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Sep 22, 2008, 08:30 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 21, 2008, 02:16 PM) *
You are still assuming this particular planet hosts all of the intellectual life in the universe. ... If you assume all life began here in this world called earth, that would be presumptuous and based on information solely gathered within the confines of relative experience of this earth and all time and space as it is understood from the level of scientific understanding and popular democratic interface.

If there are multiple civilizations in the universe, one of them had to be the first one to evolve. Maybe we are that first one.

I don't think this particular civilization on this planet is the first to come to this level of technology, let alone fancy the idea that we as a civilization are the first to develop within the Universe.
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Joesus
post Sep 22, 2008, 04:26 PM
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QUOTE(graywulf @ Sep 22, 2008, 11:24 PM) *

Rawlinson,

You need understand that no one can understand God. First, you must understand yourself. A very good way to start is with the American Indian. My people lived in nature, and with nature and had a relationship with Mother Earth and The Great Spirit, Wanken Tonka.


No one can contain God in any form or belief, but the ability to understand ones self leads to a relationship with God and an understanding of consciousness and God.

Tho the American Indians had a spiritual relationship with the Earth mother and Father Sky, they were not sufficiently conscious to eliminate superstition and illusion.
The culture of the American Indian is a place to start but not necessarily THE first place, unless you happen to be a descendant and are born into the culture and happen to start there by default...
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Rick
post Sep 22, 2008, 04:45 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 22, 2008, 05:18 PM) *
I don't think this particular civilization on this planet is the first to come to this level of technology, let alone fancy the idea that we as a civilization are the first to develop within the Universe.

Perhaps, but in that case, one of the other existing civilizations had to be the first one. Then, they would have been alone in the universe for a time (until the second one evolved), and during that time, it raises the question of how it is decided that some people would have past lives and some would not (assuming the population increases, at least for a time).
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graywulf
post Sep 22, 2008, 05:24 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Sep 22, 2008, 03:33 PM) *

has a ring of dogmatism, graywulf


Maybe so, maybe not so. Indian say no one understand God. I say this is true. Do you understand God, dream? Do you know anyone who understands God? Whre is dogmatism here?

I say Indian way is "good way" to begin. Where is dogmatism here?

I then describe Indian relationship with mother and father. Where is dogmatism there?
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graywulf
post Sep 22, 2008, 05:30 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 22, 2008, 04:26 PM) *

QUOTE(graywulf @ Sep 22, 2008, 11:24 PM) *

Rawlinson,

You need understand that no one can understand God. First, you must understand yourself. A very good way to start is with the American Indian. My people lived in nature, and with nature and had a relationship with Mother Earth and The Great Spirit, Wanken Tonka.


No one can contain God in any form or belief, but the ability to understand ones self leads to a relationship with God and an understanding of consciousness and God.

Tho the American Indians had a spiritual relationship with the Earth mother and Father Sky, they were not sufficiently conscious to eliminate superstition and illusion.
The culture of the American Indian is a place to start but not necessarily THE first place, unless you happen to be a descendant and are born into the culture and happen to start there by default...



I said "a very good way" I did not say only way. Before civilisations of white man in old world all peoples lived from the earth. They were close to earth. Indian know all life come from earth and go to earth. Indian know sun brings life to earth.
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lucid_dream
post Sep 22, 2008, 05:55 PM
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QUOTE(graywulf @ Sep 22, 2008, 06:24 PM) *
I say Indian way is "good way" to begin.

maybe if you mean Indian, as in Hinduism. wink.gif Native americans indian mythology/spirituality is not on a par with that expounded in the gita and upanishads.

QUOTE(graywulf @ Sep 22, 2008, 06:24 PM) *
Where is dogmatism here?

what you said is "You need understand that no one can understand God", which is a dogmatic statement. It's your unsubstantiated belief, nothing more. If God is immanent within us, then what is there to understand of God beyond this universal awareness? Are you granting God a personality with unfathomable motives?


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graywulf
post Sep 22, 2008, 06:01 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Sep 22, 2008, 05:55 PM) *

QUOTE(graywulf @ Sep 22, 2008, 06:24 PM) *
I say Indian way is "good way" to begin.

maybe if you mean Indian, as in Hinduism. wink.gif Native americans indian mythology/spirituality is not on a par with that expounded in the gita and upanishads.

QUOTE(graywulf @ Sep 22, 2008, 06:24 PM) *
Where is dogmatism here?

what you said is "You need understand that no one can understand God", which is a dogmatic statement. It's your unsubstantiated belief, nothing more. If God is immanent within us, then what is there to understand of God beyond this universal awareness? Are you granting God a personality with unfathomable motives?



Mr. Dream, you are most wrong. Hinduism is not advanced, it, like Christianity is a false structure on underly spirit. It deviates far from what is basic. On dogatism. You wrong. Who you know who understand God? Do you understand God?
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Joesus
post Sep 22, 2008, 06:02 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Sep 23, 2008, 12:45 AM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 22, 2008, 05:18 PM) *
I don't think this particular civilization on this planet is the first to come to this level of technology, let alone fancy the idea that we as a civilization are the first to develop within the Universe.

Perhaps, but in that case, one of the other existing civilizations had to be the first one. Then, they would have been alone in the universe for a time (until the second one evolved), and during that time, it raises the question of how it is decided that some people would have past lives and some would not (assuming the population increases, at least for a time).

That would be linear thinking and it would make linear sense if you made the assumption past lives are limited to the same location in the universe.
But then what if a heavily populated planet explodes due to the sun going supernova or are killed off because of a man made bomb that destroys the planet? If the soul is not limited to being chained to time why would it be anchored or chained to space? Why couldn't the soul migrate within the universes and galaxies?
Perhaps earth is the ghetto of the Galaxy rather than being uptown.... wink.gif or the galactic motel 6 for transient soul lovers traveling between home worlds... Third rate romance low rent rendezvous.....
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lucid_dream
post Sep 22, 2008, 06:05 PM
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QUOTE(graywulf @ Sep 22, 2008, 07:01 PM) *
Who you know who understand God? Do you understand God?

Atman=Brahman

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Joesus
post Sep 22, 2008, 06:06 PM
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QUOTE(graywulf @ Sep 23, 2008, 02:01 AM) *


Hinduism is not advanced, it, like Christianity is a false structure on underly spirit. It deviates far from what is basic.

The practice of Hinduism, and Christianity from the level of not knowing God like the practicing of being an Indian when not knowing God, are all the same..

Indian that not know self not know Indian...

Besides your mother used to be an accountant in New Jersey back in the early 1800's and she was a Christian White man!
She was reborn as an Indian to learn what it meant to be an Indian because she/he was a bigot in those days and discriminated against the Indian.
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graywulf
post Sep 22, 2008, 07:12 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 22, 2008, 06:06 PM) *

QUOTE(graywulf @ Sep 23, 2008, 02:01 AM) *


Hinduism is not advanced, it, like Christianity is a false structure on underly spirit. It deviates far from what is basic.

The practice of Hinduism, and Christianity from the level of not knowing God like the practicing of being an Indian when not knowing God, are all the same..

Indian that not know self not know Indian...

Besides your mother used to be an accountant in New Jersey back in the early 1800's and she was a Christian White man!
She was reborn as an Indian to learn what it meant to be an Indian because she/he was a bigot in those days and discriminated against the Indian.


Joseph,

You are one sly white man
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graywulf
post Sep 22, 2008, 07:14 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Sep 22, 2008, 06:05 PM) *

QUOTE(graywulf @ Sep 22, 2008, 07:01 PM) *
Who you know who understand God? Do you understand God?

Atman=Brahman


You dream, Atman, Brahman, Monkey god with serpent tongue and dragon breath and thousand other gods and ancestors in your cows. You call this advanced. You think this special. You are one dumb white man Mr. Dream.
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Joesus
post Sep 22, 2008, 07:18 PM
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QUOTE(graywulf @ Sep 23, 2008, 03:12 AM) *

Joseph,

You are one sly white man

Who said I was white? And the name isn't Joseph.. dry.gif

QUOTE(graywulf @ Sep 23, 2008, 03:12 AM) *


Atman, Brahman, Monkey god with serpent tongue and dragon breath and thousand other gods and ancestors in your cows. You call this advanced.

You call that an understanding of Hinduism or Eastern philosophy?
Indian speak with peyote breath, and smoke too much Buffalo Dookie....
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graywulf
post Sep 22, 2008, 07:38 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 22, 2008, 07:18 PM) *

QUOTE(graywulf @ Sep 23, 2008, 03:12 AM) *

Joseph,

You are one sly white man

Who said I was white? And the name isn't Joseph.. dry.gif

QUOTE(graywulf @ Sep 23, 2008, 03:12 AM) *


Atman, Brahman, Monkey god with serpent tongue and dragon breath and thousand other gods and ancestors in your cows. You call this advanced.

You call that an understanding of Hinduism or Eastern philosophy?
Indian speak with peyote breath, and smoke too much Buffalo Dookie....


Hi Mr. Joseph,
You have much buffalo breath yourself. No need to understand religions. They all are false. Bunches of crazy gods and crazy beliefs. American Indian spiritual relationship to nature is man's true relationship with all things.

Of course you white man. Your avtar is a white god. You not so sly Joseph. You make poon chips.
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Joesus
post Sep 22, 2008, 07:54 PM
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QUOTE(graywulf @ Sep 23, 2008, 03:38 AM) *
No need to understand religions. They all are false. Bunches of crazy gods and crazy beliefs.

Religion comes from God same as Indian and nature.
The nature of symbolism which is the essence of the faces of God in experience, or as you call them crazy Gods are not that different than the Indian creating Gods in the Earth, Sky, Moon, Wind, Sun, Water, Fire, Rocks, Birds etc etc.

The spiritual nature of creation exists in everything. The expression of interpretation in the experience of God in nature diverse.
The expression of belief in God without the experience of God illusion in any religion or system of spiritual belief not founded on the actual experience of Union.

You sound dogmatic as Lucid mentioned basically because you make a claim to having some kind of exclusivity to God in the system used by the American Indians, who by the way migrated from the Eastern Continents of Asia.
You could say the Hindus and the American Indians have the same roots.
And express delusion equally well.
QUOTE(graywulf @ Sep 23, 2008, 03:38 AM) *

You make poon chips.

Only if I try to digest your philosophy. wink.gif
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graywulf
post Sep 22, 2008, 08:43 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Sep 22, 2008, 07:54 PM) *

QUOTE(graywulf @ Sep 23, 2008, 03:38 AM) *
No need to understand religions. They all are false. Bunches of crazy gods and crazy beliefs.

Religion comes from God same as Indian and nature.
The nature of symbolism which is the essence of the faces of God in experience, or as you call them crazy Gods are not that different than the Indian creating Gods in the Earth, Sky, Moon, Wind, Sun, Water, Fire, Rocks, Birds etc etc.

The spiritual nature of creation exists in everything. The expression of interpretation in the experience of God in nature diverse.
The expression of belief in God without the experience of God illusion in any religion or system of spiritual belief not founded on the actual experience of Union.

You sound dogmatic as Lucid mentioned basically because you make a claim to having some kind of exclusivity to God in the system used by the American Indians, who by the way migrated from the Eastern Continents of Asia.
You could say the Hindus and the American Indians have the same roots.
And express delusion equally well.
QUOTE(graywulf @ Sep 23, 2008, 03:38 AM) *

You make poon chips.

Only if I try to digest your philosophy. wink.gif



Ah Joseph, you get part of it right and part of it wrong. With Indian there is no god and their is no gods. There is no formal religion with rules and things. There is only spirit, the spirit of all things in everything,

You people do not listen to the Indian now. You did not listen to the Indian in any century. Did you know that trees talk? Well, they do. They talk to each other, and they will talk to you if you listen. Trouble is, white people don't listen. They never learned to listen to the Indians so I don't suppose they will listen to othr voices in nature. But I have learned a lot from trees, sometimes about the weather, sometimes about animals, sometimes about the great spirit.

And Joseph, you do not not know how to make good poon chips You too busy spank yore monkey.
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Joesus
post Sep 23, 2008, 12:08 AM
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QUOTE(grayhound @ Sep 23, 2008, 04:43 AM) *




Ah Joseph, you get part of it right and part of it wrong. With Indian there is no god and their is no gods. There is no formal religion with rules and things. There is only spirit, the spirit of all things in everything,

With the Hindu Teachings, and the Teachings of Jesus there are no Gods that are other than the Spirit of all things.
In the isolation of the American Indians belief (at least as you represent it), they have not been able to integrate the awareness into other peoples cultural experience of the spirit in all things. So I understand your inability to grasp the bigger picture as it appears through the eyes of the great spirit through those other guys...
If you could understand the nature of spirituality in its diversity you might understand the spirit of all things as it exists under the name of God, rather than trying to insist spirit doesn't or can't live with the name of God if it serves human evolution
Just 'cause an American Indian don't understand it or believe it don't mean it aint so.
If they'd only listened to to those other people...
QUOTE(bulldog @ Sep 23, 2008, 04:43 AM) *

You people do not listen to the Indian now.
You will have to be a bit more intelligent when speaking to someone when talking to them. Saying to someone "you people" when beginning a conversation isn't likely to hold their attention, not to mention it's just rude... Also you might try remembering names rather than calling people names of your own choice...
QUOTE(bad-dog @ Sep 23, 2008, 04:43 AM) *
You did not listen to the Indian in any century.
I can listen in this century, and I was an Indian in another century so I had no problem listening, it was getting the other Indians to shut up and listen that was the problem... Talk talk talk, to the trees, to the squirrels....
QUOTE(dogbreath @ Sep 23, 2008, 04:43 AM) *
Did you know that trees talk? Well, they do. They talk to each other, and they will talk to you if you listen. Trouble is, white people don't listen.
There you go making generalizations again.
Do all Indians talk to trees, like the ones who work at the local Casino? The ones I talk to (Indians that is) never mention talking to trees, and they don't address me as you people either.
I did talk to a tree tho once, unfortunately it couldn't tell me more than a tree could know. When I asked it how it experienced the world around it it said, "not like you can, I'm only a tree."
QUOTE(dogfish @ Sep 23, 2008, 04:43 AM) *
They never learned to listen to the Indians so I don't suppose they will listen to other voices in nature.
Have you met all the White people or are you just speaking of the ones you haven't been able to convince in listening to you because you addressed them as you people?
QUOTE(snaggletooth @ Sep 23, 2008, 04:43 AM) *
But I have learned a lot from trees, sometimes about the weather, sometimes about animals, sometimes about the great spirit.

I think you need to talk to someone who can give you more than tree knowledge, like someone who actually knows and lives with the spirit in all things all the time. Then instead of living with a couple of pieces of the puzzle you might have a greater idea of what the pieces look like when they are actually put together.
But you might have to bone up on your communication skills and the use of the English language.
The way you talk they might think your an Indian or something and not want to listen to you. wink.gif
Seems like the great spirit kinda scorched your shorts a bit by taking away your ability to move the spirit into communication with others, which might help in getting someone to listen to you.

In other words if you want to truly Know spirit your kinda going to have to quit limiting it to being in just the things that are American Indian related. Get to know your Asian heritage, you might learn something. Even if you don't think knowledge other than Indian knowledge is necessary.
Get out travel a bit and see the world. See what its like outside the reservation. wink.gif It's a big world out there and it has within it the nature to reveal some great things about the spirit of man including those other people and why they seem to have taken away your happy hunting grounds.
All things that are not meant to last come to an end and so it is with the American Indians rule over North America.
You weren't subjugated by the white man in the days of Western expansion of the white people 'cause you were spiritually superior, so I'd give that idea up.
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