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Rick
post Sep 04, 2008, 07:33 AM
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QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Sep 03, 2008, 06:33 PM) *
... and the creation of miniature (and harmless) black holes, though these are less probable. “Most of us think we’d be very lucky to find these things,” Professor Cox said.

The CERN propaganda line is that any black holes created in the collisions will be "harmless." They will either explode harmlessly in a burst of Hawking radiation (which has been shown to possibly not exist), or they will reside in the earth harmlessly forever because they will have an extremely small cross-section of interaction with matter. This latter assumption has now been disproven, hence the estimated 50 month accretion time for earth by a single micro-black hole.

CERN management ordered its physicists to say the probability of a disaster scenario is zero (not "small"), even though the probability is provably non-zero. That's the reason for the law suits. If the consequences of disaster are infinitely negative, then the probability must be demonstrably zero for the experiment to be ethical. Also, the "raised eyebrows and shrugs of derision" from the mainstream physicists are of concern. They might not get their Nobel Prizes if the machine is shown to be dangerous before it starts operation. They have no real arguments, so they use ad hominem attacks. Remember, the "cosmic ray" argument for the safety of the collider was shown to be invalid years ago by Walter Wagner. Now, many mainstream physicists agree with him. But inattentive journalists are still fed this line and continue to disseminate it.
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Enki
post Sep 04, 2008, 09:30 AM
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Thank you Rick, really thank you.
So you are not 100% sure that something bad will happen and you say that the probability is not equal to ZERO, as I understand you say that the probability is MORE THAN ZERO, and then, in my opinion, it is normal to say that the experiment is equal to conducting a crime against mankind and that it is something like to play into Russian Roulette with our planet if the probability is MORE THAN ZERO.

Now please consider the following ruminations of mine concerning other topic expanded over this very example.

Can we at this moment stop that Politically? I think no. Maybe only by a Hurricane there. smile.gif
So the only hope is the person (persons) about existence of whom (whose) you requested credible evidences.

So then, if the black hole not appear as a result of the test, then that will mean with some PROBABILITY that (i) somebody interfered somehow and sabotaged the experiment, (ii) or that will mean that such experiments are harmless, and all is OK, and that fears were false.

In case if someone interfere and the harmful experiment being sabotaged will be cheated and displayed as harmless, and then the scientists being unaware of that will consider results as a scientific fact without any trace of a suspect that somebody intentionally interfered to save the planet, then that will mean that the modern science shall go astray and will construct false theories over cheated data. In this way the supposedly interfered Supreme Beings shall force mankind to think that ‘world is flat’ for long period of time.

And who knows maybe that already was done before by introduction of some quite specific misleadings into science based on periodically sabotaged experimental data.

So, as you see Rick by FULLY denying existence of the Supreme Beings, in case if they are apt to make the above mentioned sabotages, and fully denying any possibility of their existence, from point of view of such Supreme Beings you Rick should be considered as excellent companion in leading unprepared mankind astray. tongue.gif

So it will be more reasonable and helpful for mankind if you leave some room of probability in your strict scientific considerations that something very intelligent can be out there. That will help to trace the sabotage (even positive one) and foster ground for avoiding negative sabotages in future.

Don't you think that such an approach is more correct. Sorry for shaggy English.

Respects,
Enki
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post Sep 04, 2008, 10:13 AM
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.... well fellas, it's a shame that the full extent of possibilities will not be realized until well into next year, due to the gradual approach to the mega machines full potential power and capabilities. So, rest assured, planet earth, the solar system and the milky way galaxy wiil remain safe until possibly that day when the physicists at cern rev their tests all the way to the max. Untill then, it shall be business as usual here on earth.... mind you they may make some minor/major discoveries before then that will hopefully steer all of mankind in a new and positive direction! smile.gif
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Hey Hey
post Sep 04, 2008, 10:28 AM
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If the black hole gets us, maybe we'll shoot out of a white hole at the other end. [No whites? Well, the world was flat once.]
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post Sep 04, 2008, 10:37 AM
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exactly hey hey.... who knows maybe we will finally discover and begin to understand wormholes (as well as black holes) and how to harness them for the betterment of mankind's future, and their potential other uses!
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post Sep 04, 2008, 10:41 AM
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QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Sep 04, 2008, 07:37 PM) *

exactly hey hey.... who knows maybe we will finally discover and begin to understand wormholes (as well as black holes) and how to harness them for the betterment of mankind's future, their potential uses!

I like this positive approach!

Doom is a reversible mood!
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post Sep 04, 2008, 11:11 AM
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QUOTE(Enki @ Sep 04, 2008, 01:30 PM) *


Can we at this moment stop that Politically? I think no. Maybe only by a Hurricane there. smile.gif


oh Enki.... tooo funny! smile.gif
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Rick
post Sep 04, 2008, 11:23 AM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Sep 04, 2008, 11:28 AM) *

If the black hole gets us, maybe we'll shoot out of a white hole at the other end.

That would be nice except that nothing survives falling into a black hole. The extreme gravity gradient crushes all form beyond reconstruction. The diameter of the event horizon of an earth-mass black hole is microscopic. The diameter of the event horizon of a solar-mass black hole is about a milimeter.
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Rick
post Sep 04, 2008, 11:30 AM
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QUOTE(Enki @ Sep 04, 2008, 10:30 AM) *

Thank you Rick, really thank you.
So you are not 100% sure that something bad will happen and you say that the probability is not equal to ZERO, as I understand you say that the probability is MORE THAN ZERO, and then, in my opinion, it is normal to say that the experiment is equal to conducting a crime against mankind and that it is something like to play into Russian Roulette with our planet if the probability is MORE THAN ZERO.

Yes, you got it. Playing Russian roulette with our planet is wrong, even if the gun has millions of chambers in it. This is basic ethics.

QUOTE
In case if someone interfere and the harmful experiment being sabotaged will be cheated and displayed as harmless, and then the scientists being unaware of that will consider results as a scientific fact without any trace of a suspect that somebody intentionally interfered to save the planet, then that will mean that the modern science shall go astray and will construct false theories over cheated data. In this way the supposedly interfered Supreme Beings shall force mankind to think that ‘world is flat’ for long period of time.

Enki, you've got to stop smoking that stuff, whatever it is.

Sorry about the ad hominem there, but I couldn't resist. Wouldn't a simpler explanation involving super-beings be that they created the universe in such a way that it is like a rubber-bumpered playground and that self-destruction via particle collider just isn't possible in the first place?
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post Sep 04, 2008, 12:02 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Sep 04, 2008, 03:23 PM) *

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Sep 04, 2008, 11:28 AM) *

If the black hole gets us, maybe we'll shoot out of a white hole at the other end.

That would be nice except that nothing survives falling into a black hole. The extreme gravity gradient crushes all form beyond reconstruction. The diameter of the event horizon of an earth-mass black hole is microscopic. The diameter of the event horizon of a solar-mass black hole is about a milimeter.



.... so the theoery goes rick, so the theory goes! We may soon just find out if that theory has any concrete foundation!
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Rick
post Sep 04, 2008, 12:41 PM
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Is that gallows humor or just bravado?
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post Sep 04, 2008, 01:27 PM
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.... all balls (bravado) rick! I wanna live.... and progress, I only hope for the best out of this whole LHC experiment! I'm thinking along the lines of the things Michio Kaku wrote about in Hyperspace about white/worm holes and their potential benefit for the future salvation of mankind, as a possible escape mechanism into another part of the universe or even into another univiverse. Who really knows rick, we may just be in for some positive surprises.... and rapid physical, mental, social, technological, etc. advancements in the near future! Think how far we as a global civiliazation have advanced by leaps (quantum, lol) and bounds, say, since you were even born, for example!
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Rick
post Sep 04, 2008, 01:32 PM
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I hope for the best too, so even though they are arrogant, I hope they are right, and there is absolutely no danger. It's just that physicists, of all people, should know that the universe is not a safe place--there are no guarantees. Every person involved in the so-called safety report from CERN had a conflict of interest.
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post Sep 04, 2008, 01:37 PM
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I am adding all these various links because I am finding little new tidbits of information that are not found in other links.... and they offer varying cultural outlooks on what is currently happening at CERN!

http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/featur...with_a_bang.php
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Rick
post Sep 04, 2008, 03:05 PM
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QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Sep 04, 2008, 02:37 PM) *

I am adding all these various links because I am finding little new tidbits of information that are not found in other links.... and they offer varying cultural outlooks on what is currently happening at CERN!

http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/featur...with_a_bang.php

From the article:

Dr Eisenhardt says there is "no risk whatsoever". "When these allegations were raised, our own people reassessed it again. They shed light on it from every angle and we can confirm there is no risk. The best way to look at it is: our accelerator has a certain limit for how energetically we can smash particles together. In the outer atmosphere of the Earth, we have intergalactic particles hitting the atmosphere that are more energetic than anything we can produce. We know that they create mini black holes that decay into radiation - if they didn't, we wouldn't exist."

See? They're doing it again. Completely ignoring that the "cosmic ray argument" has been totally debunked. Nobelist Frank Wilczek doesn't use it anymore since being set right by Walter Wagner some time ago. It's a pity the administrative types still use it.
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post Sep 04, 2008, 03:38 PM
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Is such a huge experiment worth it?

Yes...

* We need to know how the Universe is put together to understand our place in it

* The cost is trivial compared with that of not expanding on our existing knowledge

* There have been huge spin-offs from similar experiments, notably the internet

No...

* The science is too distant and abstruse for enough worthwhile benefits to humanity

* Particle physics is less important than, say, medicine and biology

* If scientists have misunderstood the physics there's a risk of creating a black hole

Scientists are even starting to get death threats.... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtm...5/scilhc105.xml
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post Sep 04, 2008, 03:47 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Sep 04, 2008, 07:05 PM) *

QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Sep 04, 2008, 02:37 PM) *

I am adding all these various links because I am finding little new tidbits of information that are not found in other links.... and they offer varying cultural outlooks on what is currently happening at CERN!

http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/featur...with_a_bang.php

From the article:

Dr Eisenhardt says there is "no risk whatsoever". "When these allegations were raised, our own people reassessed it again. They shed light on it from every angle and we can confirm there is no risk. The best way to look at it is: our accelerator has a certain limit for how energetically we can smash particles together. In the outer atmosphere of the Earth, we have intergalactic particles hitting the atmosphere that are more energetic than anything we can produce. We know that they create mini black holes that decay into radiation - if they didn't, we wouldn't exist."

See? They're doing it again. Completely ignoring that the "cosmic ray argument" has been totally debunked. Nobelist Frank Wilczek doesn't use it anymore since being set right by Walter Wagner some time ago. It's a pity the administrative types still use it.



"The new report published today provides the most comprehensive evidence available to confirm that nature's own cosmic rays regularly produce more powerful particle collisions than those planned within the LHC.

The LHC Safety Assessment Group has reviewed and updated a study first completed in 2003, which dispels fears of universe-gobbling black holes and of other possibly dangerous new forms of matter, and confirms that the switch-on will be safe."

.... from the above link!

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post Sep 04, 2008, 03:57 PM
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omg.... I just thought of this! Can you imagine the ramifications and the hysteria that would be running rampant right now if they had decided to flip the switch on September 11th instead of the 10th!
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Enki
post Sep 04, 2008, 08:18 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Sep 04, 2008, 11:30 AM) *

Wouldn't a simpler explanation involving super-beings be that they created the universe in such a way that it is like a rubber-bumpered playground and that self-destruction via particle collider just isn't possible in the first place?


No.
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Enki
post Sep 04, 2008, 08:20 PM
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QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Sep 04, 2008, 11:11 AM) *

QUOTE(Enki @ Sep 04, 2008, 01:30 PM) *


Can we at this moment stop that Politically? I think no. Maybe only by a Hurricane there. smile.gif


oh Enki.... tooo funny! smile.gif


Ya, too funny to be true?! smile.gif
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Rick
post Sep 06, 2008, 01:11 PM
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QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Sep 04, 2008, 04:47 PM) *
... confirms that the switch-on will be safe."

.... from the above link!

Yes, they continue to parrot the party line. Just like the Republicans. Repeat the lie often enough and it becomes true.

Repeating the truth: the cosmic ray argument for safety has been completely debunked. Collision products from cosmic ray impacts are traveling at relativistic speed, well above excape velocity from earth. Collider products have an average velocity of zero and have time to interact with earth. Basic physics!
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Enki
post Sep 06, 2008, 02:47 PM
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A little offtop but somehow related: concerns ‘credible evidences’ option.

There is a long standing opinion that till human blood is not shed heavily there is no respect to any God and any word coming under name of any of them (Gods).

Maybe some nations understand only the language of blood and pain? Is it really so?

Maybe.

I mean if a God respecting human Free Will openly conveys a message to certain nation, shows signs which even Rick would consider as Credible Evidences, provides chain of certain signs, discloses secrets beyond comprehension etc, and remains ignored and disrespected and even heavily castigated, then can the Lord choose to go to detached transcendence only for that certain nation and not to interfere when other forces will follow the logic of the above described long standing opinion? A dilemma. Because having ability to save, to protect, to persuade and not doing this is a greatest crime in the Universe. But, on the other hand, when long chain of disrespects to the essence of Devine mark the contemporary history of that nation, then the Destroyer as a collective force comes to his full rights over the destinies of that twisted nation.

How morbid, there are nations where reconstruction is impossible, there should be full destruction and only then construction. The culturally retarded set of people generally face such consequences. I wonder how it is possible when so many bastards come together and form such a nation?

Those are some thoughts which crossed my soul this night. Human History in action, that is what I call it.
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Enki
post Sep 06, 2008, 02:50 PM
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Things happen...
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Enki
post Sep 07, 2008, 06:35 AM
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So when exactly the Doomsday Experiment is scheduled for execution?
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post Sep 08, 2008, 03:51 AM
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Since we've not had any hands on experience with black holes, we are relying on hypothesis and empirical data from fallable equipment. Are we sure we have observed the creation of tiny black holes before this experiment?

I walked into my mothers over the weekend, and my nephews and niece (13,14,15 yrs) were all a bit nervous about it being switched on. The atmosphere was thick with worry when I tried to discuss it with them. I feel this experiment is having the same impact as the millenium bug, ie overhyped nonsense.

We need to consider what we'll do after this experiment finds new smaller particles. Do we build another larger collider to find out theres even more stuff to the Universe? What radius is big enough? This may be scientists holy grail, but in all honesty I think it is as futile as searching for the fabled grail.

Trip: How did the internet come about from these earlier experiments?

I believe we will never find an answer by smashing things into smaller and smaller bits, or even by viewing objects further and further away. The only valid method for understanding it all is to move our perceptions from the viewpoint of humanity to something higher and more abstract. We have enough pieces of the puzzle to find a solution to a Theory of Everything without reducing anything else to the basic substance of the Universe. Seriously, does anyone really thing there is a single unit of Universe out there?
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Rick
post Sep 08, 2008, 10:23 AM
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QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Sep 08, 2008, 04:51 AM) *
... Are we sure we have observed the creation of tiny black holes before this experiment?

Micro black holes have never been observed. The only black holes that have been observed are astronomical and are the result of the gravitational collapse of giant stars. Here's more on the danger of the LHC at CERN (a very good source with more links):

http://bigsciencenews.blogspot.com/

QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Sep 08, 2008, 04:51 AM) *

Trip: How did the internet come about from these earlier experiments?

This wasn't addressed to me, but it's my area. Tim Berners-Lee, a computer scientist, working with researchers at CERN, back in the early '90s, developed the hypertext transport protocol (HTTP, AKA World Wide Web) in order to facilitate the exchange of scientific documents on the Internet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee
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trojan_libido
post Sep 08, 2008, 01:15 PM
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Thats fair enough, but its a weak link to say the internet came about like that. Its more about a scientist facilitating work using the technology around him. Usually large advances in technology occur spontaneously around the world (TV, Irrigation).

An idea I was musing around with the other day. What if the Universe is forever falling into a black hole? The apparent singularity may bend spacetime so that the Universe would appear to be expanding as we fell. This would match our observations from our point in time, and has some interesting spin off questions.

I don't think anything will happen, other than a lot of head scratching and such for a few years while they work out what they are seeing and if they're detecting all the particles. It seems we're forever coming up with solutions that require invisible particles (usually to do with mass if I remember rightly).
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Rick
post Sep 08, 2008, 04:05 PM
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QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Sep 08, 2008, 02:15 PM) *
I don't think anything will happen ...

What a relief.
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Enki
post Sep 08, 2008, 10:41 PM
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Rick the show will go on. Such is the Will of the Mr. Very Credible Evidence.

Trust me.

LHC experiment shall f*ck up, I tell you! Just an average hole instead of LHC shall remain with illuminated physicists fried heading right to the hell, maybe. We shall call it Vatican Conspiracy or a Catholic response to the Angels and Demons. smile.gif
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trojan_libido
post Sep 08, 2008, 11:34 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Sep 09, 2008, 01:05 AM) *

QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Sep 08, 2008, 02:15 PM) *
I don't think anything will happen ...

What a relief.
Glad to be of assistance.
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