Ego - The False Center Options

[evadtheprophet]

taken from: http://deoxy.org/egofalse.htm
Ego - The False Center
by Osho
The first thing to be understood is what ego is. A child is born. A child is born without any knowledge, any consciousness of his own self. And when a child is born the first thing he becomes aware of is not himself; the first thing he becomes aware of is the other. It is natural, because the eyes open outwards, the hands touch others, the ears listen to others, the tongue tastes food and the nose smells the outside. All these senses open outwards.

That is what birth means. Birth means coming into this world, the world of the outside. So when a child is born, he is born into this world. He opens his eyes, sees others. 'Other' means the thou. He becomes aware of the mother first. Then, by and by, he becomes aware of his own body. That too is the other, that too belongs to the world. He is hungry and he feels the body; his need is satisfied, he forgets the body.

This is how a child grows. First he becomes aware of you, thou, other, and then by and by, in contrast to you, thou, he becomes aware of himself.

This awareness is a reflected awareness. He is not aware of who he is. He is simply aware of the mother and what she thinks about him. If she smiles, if she appreciates the child, if she says, "You are beautiful," if she hugs and kisses him, the child feels good about himself. Now an ego is born.

Through appreciation, love, care, he feels he is good, he feels he is valuable, he feels he has some significance.

A center is born.

But this center is a reflected center. It is not his real being. He does not know who he is; he simply knows what others think about him. And this is the ego: the reflection, what others think. If nobody thinks that he is of any use, nobody appreciates him, nobody smiles, then too an ego is born: an ill ego; sad, rejected, like a wound; feeling inferior, worthless. This too is the ego. This too is a reflection.

First the mother - and mother means the world in the beginning. Then others will join the mother, and the world goes on growing. And the more the world grows, the more complex the ego becomes, because many others' opinions are reflected.

The ego is an accumulated phenomenon, a by-product of living with others. If a child lives totally alone, he will never come to grow an ego. But that is not going to help. He will remain like an animal. That doesn't mean that he will come to know the real self, no.

The real can be known only through the false, so the ego is a must. One has to pass through it. It is a discipline. The real can be known only through the illusion. You cannot know the truth directly. First you have to know that which is not true. First you have to encounter the untrue. Through that encounter you become capable of knowing the truth. If you know the false as the false, truth will dawn upon you.

Ego is a need; it is a social need, it is a social by-product. The society means all that is around you - not you, but all that is around you. All, minus you, is the society. And everybody reflects. You will go to school and the teacher will reflect who you are. You will be in friendship with other children and they will reflect who you are. By and by, everybody is adding to your ego, and everybody is trying to modify it in such a way that you don't become a problem to the society.

They are not concerned with you.

They are concerned with the society.

Society is concerned with itself, and that's how it should be.

They are not concerned that you should become a self-knower. They are concerned that you should become an efficient part in the mechanism of the society. You should fit into the pattern. So they are trying to give you an ego that fits with the society. They teach you morality. Morality means giving you an ego which will fit with the society. If you are immoral, you will always be a misfit somewhere or other. That's why we put criminals in the prisons - not that they have done something wrong, not that by putting them in the prisons we are going to improve them, no. They simply don't fit. They are troublemakers. They have certain types of egos of which the society doesn't approve. If the society approves, everything is good.

One man kills somebody - he is a murderer.

And the same man in wartime kills thousands - he becomes a great hero. The society is not bothered by a murder, but the murder should be commited for the society - then it is okay. The society doesn't bother about morality.

Morality means only that you should fit with the society.

If the society is at war, then the morality changes.

If the society is at peace, then there is a different morality.

Morality is a social politics. It is diplomacy. And each child has to be brought up in such a way that he fits into the society, that's all. Because society is interested in efficient members. Society is not interested that you should attain to self-knowledge.

The society creates an ego because the ego can be controlled and manipulated. The self can never be controlled or manipulated. Nobody has ever heard of the society controlling a self - not possible.

And the child needs a center; the child is completely unaware of his own center. The society gives him a center and the child is by and by convinced that this is his center, the ego that society gives.

A child comes back to his home - if he has come first in his class, the whole family is happy. You hug and kiss him, and you take the child on your shoulders and dance and you say, "What a beautiful child! You are a pride to us." You are giving him an ego, a subtle ego. And if the child comes home dejected, unsuccessful, a failure - he couldn't pass, or he has just been on the back bench - then nobody appreciates him and the child feels rejected. He will try harder next time, because the center feels shaken.

Ego is always shaken, always in search of food, that somebody should appreciate it. That's why you continuously ask for attention.

You get the idea of who you are from others.

It is not a direct experience.

It is from others that you get the idea of who you are. They shape your center. This center is false, because you carry your real center. That is nobody's business. Nobody shapes it.

You come with it.

You are born with it.

So you have two centers. One center you come with, which is given by existence itself. That is the self. And the other center, which is created by the society, is the ego. It is a false thing - and it is a very great trick. Through the ego the society is controlling you. You have to behave in a certain way, because only then does the society appreciate you. You have to walk in a certain way; you have to laugh in a certain way; you have to follow certain manners, a morality, a code. Only then will the society appreciate you, and if it doesn't, you ego will be shaken. And when the ego is shaken, you don't know where you are, who you are.

The others have given you the idea.

That idea is the ego.

Try to understand it as deeply as possible, because this has to be thrown. And unless you throw it you will never be able to attain to the self. Because you are addicted to the center, you cannot move, and you cannot look at the self.

And remember, there is going to be an interim period, an interval, when the ego will be shattered, when you will not know who you are, when you will not know where you are going, when all boundaries will melt.

You will simply be confused, a chaos.

Because of this chaos, you are afraid to lose the ego. But it has to be so. One has to pass through the chaos before one attains to the real center.

And if you are daring, the period will be small.

If you are afraid, and you again fall back to the ego, and you again start arranging it, then it can be very, very long; many lives can be wasted.

I have heard: One small child was visiting his grandparents. He was just four years old. In the night when the grandmother was putting him to sleep, he suddenly started crying and weeping and said, "I want to go home. I am afraid of darkness." But the grandmother said, "I know well that at home also you sleep in the dark; I have never seen a light on. So why are you afraid here?" The boy said, "Yes, that's right - but that is MY darkness." This darkness is completely unknown.

Even with darkness you feel, "This is MINE."

Outside - an unknown darkness.

With the ego you feel, "This is MY darkness."

It may be troublesome, maybe it creates many miseries, but still mine. Something to hold to, something to cling to, something underneath the feet; you are not in a vacuum, not in an emptiness. You may be miserable, but at least you ARE. Even being miserable gives you a feeling of 'I am'. Moving from it, fear takes over; you start feeling afraid of the unknown darkness and chaos - because society has managed to clear a small part of your being.

It is just like going to a forest. You make a little clearing, you clear a little ground; you make fencing, you make a small hut; you make a small garden, a lawn, and you are okay. Beyond your fence - the forest, the wild. Here everything is okay; you have planned everything. This is how it has happened.

Society has made a little clearing in your consciousness. It has cleaned just a little part completely, fenced it. Everything is okay there. That's what all your universities are doing. The whole culture and conditioning is just to clear a part so that you can feel at home there.

And then you become afraid.

Beyond the fence there is danger.

Beyond the fence you are, as within the fence you are - and your conscious mind is just one part, one-tenth of your whole being. Nine-tenths is waiting in the darkness. And in that nine-tenths, somewhere your real center is hidden.

One has to be daring, courageous.

One has to take a step into the unknown.

For a while all boundaries will be lost.

For a while you will feel dizzy.

For a while, you will feel very afraid and shaken, as if an earthquake has happened. But if you are courageous and you don't go backwards, if you don't fall back to the ego and you go on and on, there is a hidden center within you that you have been carrying for many lives.

That is your soul, the self.

Once you come near it, everything changes, everything settles again. But now this settling is not done by the society. Now everything becomes a cosmos, not a chaos; a new order arises.

But this is no longer the order of the society - it is the very order of existence itself.

It is what Buddha calls Dhamma, Lao Tzu calls Tao, Heraclitus calls Logos. It is not man-made. It is the VERY order of existence itself. Then everything is suddenly beautiful again, and for the first time really beautiful, because man-made things cannot be beautiful. At the most you can hide the ugliness of them, that's all. You can decorate them, but they can never be beautiful.

The difference is just like the difference between a real flower and a plastic or paper flower. The ego is a plastic flower - dead. It just looks like a flower, it is not a flower. You cannot really call it a flower. Even linguistically to call it a flower is wrong, because a flower is something which flowers. And this plastic thing is just a thing, not a flowering. It is dead. There is no life in it.

You have a flowering center within. That's why Hindus call it a lotus - it is a flowering. They call it the one-thousand-petaled-lotus. One thousand means infinite petals. And it goes on flowering, it never stops, it never dies.

But you are satisfied with a plastic ego.

There are some reasons why you are satisfied. With a dead thing, there are many conveniences. One is that a dead thing never dies. It cannot - it was never alive. So you can have plastic flowers, they are good in a way. They are permanent; they are not eternal, but they are permanent.

The real flower outside in the garden is eternal, but not permanent. And the eternal has its own way of being eternal. The way of the eternal is to be born again and again and to die. Through death it refreshes itself, rejuvenates itself.

To us it appears that the flower has died - it never dies.

It simply changes bodies, so it is ever fresh.

It leaves the old body, it enters a new body. It flowers somewhere else; it goes on flowering.

But we cannot see the continuity because the continuity is invisible. We see only one flower, another flower; we never see the continuity.

It is the same flower which flowered yesterday.

It is the same sun, but in a different garb.

The ego has a certain quality - it is dead. It is a plastic thing. And it is very easy to get it, because others give it. You need not seek it, there is no search involved. That's why unless you become a seeker after the unknown, you have not yet become an individual. You are just a part of the crowd. You are just a mob.

When you don't have a real center, how can you be an individual?

The ego is not individual. Ego is a social phenomenon - it is society, its not you. But it gives you a function in the society, a hierarchy in the society. And if you remain satisfied with it, you will miss the whole opportunity of finding the self.

And that's why you are so miserable.

With a plastic life, how can you be happy?

With a false life, how can you be ecstatic and blissful? And then this ego creates many miseries, millions of them.

You cannot see, because it is your own darkness. You are attuned to it.

Have you ever noticed that all types of miseries enter through the ego? It cannot make you blissful; it can only make you miserable.

Ego is hell.

Whenever you suffer, just try to watch and analyze, and you will find, somewhere the ego is the cause of it. And the ego goes on finding causes to suffer.

You are an egoist, as everyone is. Some are very gross, just on the surface, and they are not so difficult. Some are very subtle, deep down, and they are the real problems.

This ego comes continuously in conflict with others because every ego is so unconfident about itself. Is has to be - it is a false thing. When you don't have anything in your hand and you just think that something is there, then there will be a problem.

If somebody says, "There is nothing," immediately the fight will start, because you also feel that there is nothing. The other makes you aware of the fact.

Ego is false, it is nothing.

That you also know.

How can you miss knowing it? It is impossible! A conscious being - how can he miss knowing that this ego is just false? And then others say that there is nothing - and whenever the others say that there is nothing they hit a wound, they say a truth - and nothing hits like the truth.

You have to defend, because if you don't defend, if you don't become defensive, then where will you be?

You will be lost.

The identity will be broken.

So you have to defend and fight - that is the clash.

A man who attains to the self is never in any clash. Others may come and clash with him, but he is never in clash with anybody.

It happened that one Zen master was passing through a street. A man came running and hit him hard. The master fell down. Then he got up and started to walk in the same direction in which he was going before, not even looking back.

A disciple was with the master. He was simply shocked. He said, "Who is this man? What is this? If one lives in such a way, then anybody can come and kill you. And you have not even looked at that person, who he is, and why he did it."

The master said, "That is his problem, not mine."

You can clash with an enlightened man, but that is your problem, not his. And if you are hurt in that clash, that too is your own problem. He cannot hurt you. And it is like knocking against a wall - you will be hurt, but the wall has not hurt you.

The ego is always looking for some trouble. Why? Because if nobody pays attention to you, the ego feels hungry.

It lives on attention.

So even if somebody is fighting and angry with you, that too is good because at least the attention is paid. If somebody loves, it is okay. If somebody is not loving you, then even anger will be good. At least the attention will come to you. But if nobody is paying any attention to you, nobody thinks that you are somebody important, significant, then how will you feed your ego?

Other's attention is needed.

In millions of ways you attract the attention of others; you dress in a certain way, you try to look beautiful, you behave, you become very polite, you change. When you feel what type of situation is there, you immediately change so that people pay attention to you.

This is a deep begging.

A real beggar is one who asks for and demands attention. And a real emperor is one who lives in himself; he has a center of his own, he doesn't depend on anybody else.

Buddha sitting under his bodhi tree...if the whole world suddenly disappears, will it make any difference to Buddha? -none. It will not make any difference at all. If the whole world disappears, it will not make any difference because he has attained to the center.

But you, if the wife escapes, divorces you, goes to somebody else, you are completely shattered - because she had been paying attention to you, caring, loving, moving around you, helping you to feel that you were somebody. Your whole empire is lost, you are simply shattered. You start thinking about suicide. Why? Why, if a wife leaves you, should you commit suicide? Why, if a husband leaves you, should you commit suicide? Because you don't have any center of your own. The wife was giving you the center; the husband was giving you the center.

This is how people exist. This is how people become dependent on others. It is a deep slavery. Ego HAS to be a slave. It depends on others. And only a person who has no ego is for the first time a master; he is no longer a slave. Try to understand this.

And start looking for the ego - not in others, that is not your business, but in yourself. Whenever you feel miserable, immediately close you eyes and try to find out from where the misery is coming and you will always find it is the false center which has clashed with someone.

You expected something, and it didn't happen.

You expected something, and just the contrary happened - your ego is shaken, you are in misery. Just look, whenever you are miserable, try to find out why.

Causes are not outside you. The basic cause is within you - but you always look outside, you always ask:

Who is making me miserable?
Who is the cause of my anger?
Who is the cause of my anguish?
And if you look outside you will miss.
Just close the eyes and always look within.
The source of all misery, anger, anguish, is hidden in you, your ego.


And if you find the source, it will be easy to move beyond it. If you can see that it is your own ego that gives you trouble, you will prefer to drop it - because nobody can carry the source of misery if he understands it.

And remember, there is no need to drop the ego.

You cannot drop it.

If you try to drop it, you will attain to a certain subtle ego again which says, "I have become humble."

Don't try to be humble. That's again ego in hiding - but it's not dead.

Don't try to be humble.

Nobody can try humility, and nobody can create humility through any effort of his own - no. When the ego is no more, a humbleness comes to you. It is not a creation. It is a shadow of the real center.

And a really humble man is neither humble nor egoistic.

He is simply simple.

He's not even aware that he is humble.

If you are aware that you are humble, the ego is there.

Look at humble persons.... There are millions who think that they are very humble. They bow down very low, but watch them - they are the subtlest egoists. Now humility is their source of food. They say, "I am humble," and then they look at you and they wait for you to appreciate them.

"You are really humble," they would like you to say. "In fact, you are the most humble man in the world; nobody is as humble as you are." Then see the smile that comes on their faces.

What is ego? Ego is a hierarchy that says, "No one is like me." It can feed on humbleness - "Nobody is like me, I am the most humble man."

It happened once:

A fakir, a beggar, was praying in a mosque, just early in the morning when it was still dark. It was a certain religious day for Mohammedians, and he was praying, and he was saying, "I am nobody. I am the poorest of the poor, the greatest sinner of sinners."

Suddenly there was one more person who was praying. He was the emperor of that country, and he was not aware that there was somebody else there who was praying - it was dark, and the emperor was also saying:

"I am nobody. I am nothing. I am just empty, a beggar at our door." When he heard that somebody else was saying the same thing, he said, "Stop! Who is trying to overtake me? Who are you? How dare you say before the emperor that you are nobody when he is saying that he is nobody?"

This is how the ego goes. It is so subtle. Its ways are so subtle and cunning; you have to be very, very alert, only then will you see it. Don't try to be humble. Just try to see that all misery, all anguish comes through it.

Just watch! No need to drop it.

You cannot drop it. Who will drop it? Then the DROPPER will become the ego. It always comes back.

Whatsoever you do, stand out of it, and look and watch.

Whatsoever you do - humbleness, humility, simplicity - nothing will help. Only one thing is possible, and that is just to watch and see that it is the source of all misery. Don't say it. Don't repeat it - WATCH. Because if I say it is the source of all misery and you repeat it, then it is useless. YOU have to come to that understanding. Whenever you are miserable, just close the eyes and don't try to find some cause outside. Try to see from where this misery is coming.

It is your own ego.

If you continuously feel and understand, and the understanding that the ego is the cause becomes so deep-rooted, one day you will suddenly see that it has disappeared. Nobody drops it - nobody can drop it. You simply see; it has simply disappeared, because the very understanding that ego causes all misery becomes the dropping. THE VERY UNDERSTANDING IS THE DISAPPEARANCE OF THE EGO.

And you are so clever in seeing the ego in others. Anybody can see someone else's ego. When it comes to your own, then the problem arises - because you don't know the territory, you have never traveled on it.

The whole path towards the divine, the ultimate, has to pass through this territory of the ego. The false has to be understood as false. The source of misery has to be understood as the source of misery - then it simply drops.

When you know it is poison, it drops. When you know it is fire, it drops. When you know this is the hell, it drops.

And then you never say, "I have dropped the ego." Then you simply laugh at the whole thing, the joke that you were the creator of all misery.

I was just looking at a few cartoons of Charlie Brown. In one cartoon he is playing with blocks, making a house out of children's blocks. He is sitting in the middle of the blocks building the walls. Then a moment comes when he is enclosed; all around he has made a wall. Then he cries, "Help, help!"

He has done the whole thing! Now he is enclosed, imprisoned. This is childish, but this is all that you have done also. You have made a house all around yourself, and now you are crying, "Help, help!" And the misery becomes a millionfold - because there are helpers who are also in the same boat.

It happened that one very beautiful woman went to see her psychiatrist for the first time. The psychiatrist said, "Come closer please." When she came closer, he simply jumped and hugged and kissed the woman. She was shocked. Then he said, "Now sit down. This takes care of my problem, now what is your problem?"

The problem becomes multifold, because there are helpers who are in the same boat. And they would like to help, because when you help somebody the ego feels very good, very, very good - because you are a great helper, a great guru, a master; you are helping so many people. The greater the crowd of your followers, the better you feel.

But you are in the same boat - you cannot help.

Rather, you will harm.

People who still have their own problems cannot be of much help. Only someone who has no problems of his own can help you. Only then is there the clarity to see, to see through you. A mind that has no problems of its own can see you, you become transparent.

A mind that has no problems of its own can see through itself; that's why it becomes capable of seeing through others.

In the West, there are many schools of psychoanalysis, many schools, and no help is reaching people, but rather, harm. Because the people who are helping others, or trying to help, or posing as helpers, are in the same boat.

...It is difficult to see one's own ego.

It is very easy to see other's egos. But that is not the point, you cannot help them.

Try to see your own ego.

Just watch it.

Don't be in a hurry to drop it, just watch it. The more you watch, the more capable you will become. Suddenly one day, you simply see that it has dropped. And when it drops by itself, only then does it drop. There is no other way. Prematurely you cannot drop it.

It drops just like a dead leaf.

The tree is not doing anything - just a breeze, a situation, and the dead leaf simply drops. The tree is not even aware that the dead leaf has dropped. It makes no noise, it makes no claim - nothing.

The dead leaf simply drops and shatters on the ground, just like that.

When you are mature through understanding, awareness, and you have felt totally that ego is the cause of all your misery, simply one day you see the dead leaf dropping.

It settles into the ground, dies of its own accord. You have not done anything so you cannot claim that you have dropped it. You see that it has simply disappeared, and then the real center arises.

And that real center is the soul, the self, the god, the truth, or whatsoever you want to call it.

It is nameless, so all names are good.

You can give it any name of your own liking.


From Beyond the Frontier of the Mind by Osho

[Piratjenny]

I am familiar with Osho but I could never relate to the concept of "Ego", presented by him or other Eastern masters. I can watch my soul, my desire, my self, my anger, my joy, my needs, my ugliness and my beauty but I cannot relate to the idea that any of this could or even should be "dropped" for the sake of duality, ooops spirituality.
I prefer to live with my inner zoo...rain or shine, PJ

[MrMonkey]

I dont think he means 'dropped' in the sence that it goes away...that would spell psychosis, for how would one know where one begins, and one ends?

I think 'dropped' (and of course, like always- I could be misinterpreting here) in this context is more along the lines of 'transended' or 'not identified with'.  That is, to see past the illusion of separateness (duality) in order to realise the aspect of beeing that exists everywhere and in everything (cosmic consciousness, buddha-mind, christ-mind, godhead etc...).  Of course, one isnt expected to literally believe that 'I' dont exist- what is beeing attacked here is the 'I' that feels alone and separate (the illusion generated by the illusion which asserts itself through fear and distracts via thoughts of time).

Ken Wilber gives an excellent account of the 'enlightened' experience in his book 'One Taste'.  I highly reccomend at least going to the library/bookstore and fishing through it.  According to him (and it is evident just by reading the book) personality isnt destroyed by transendance, in fact- often times it is strengthened.  There is a knowledge that is remembered thus changing ones relationship with the natural world/existance- he says not to worry, it isnt destruction, rather- an awakening to reality which dispells alot of the unessisary garbage of the mind (my words/interpretation) that causes needless suffering.

Sure, as one clears out the negative consequences of a distorted sence of self/reality- of course ones goals/desires will change- but that is life/tao.  It may bee helpful to ask 'why?' does one fear change?  Even better would bee to ask 'who is it?' that fears change?  And if you think that awnser is 'I do', just ask yourself 'who am I?'.  

Ive got a bright, shiney nickel for the first person who can honestly awnser that question (for themselves).

[synchronox]

Some much richness, so little time....
Thank you Evad for the excellent choice.

MrMonkey, you ask good questions.  Wittgenstein said if you could frame the question right it begged the answer.  As I remember.

Some things I collected, don't follow the Eastern way, they are in a different understanding from Westerners.

The Ego is the highest form of the 'Executive Function'  that is known.  It is the central organizing agent of what we know as consiousness.

Now, some things I know, identified as such, so be suspicious as there is little supporting documentation.

The ego is akin to a lens system shining our persona on the wall. Persona=Greek for mask.  I also used the wall/lens system to tie in with Socrates metaphor of the story of the cave.

This lens system has an accompanying program of its own.  (ref: Benjamin Lebed, he does not explain this only preforming experiments that demonstrate this effect.)

What shines through the lens system are survival programs we have learned to use in this world that play over and over again-archetypes.  We are driven by archetypes embedded in survival programs.  Triggered by matching similar events that we have encountered in our childhood.  Repetitive and humorless in the main.
This a crude description of our existing world.  However, we have a new program lurking in the wings, theatening to come in, with the old programs saying: "  But we got you here, you are surviving right now no matter how miserable you are.  If you take up this new program, I will die and you along with it."  That is what generates the fear and discontent and the reason we cannot move ahead until we understand this consciously.
The ego is an essential part in the new system, it should not be bashed, only decontaminated of old programs.  This is done initially by seeing the images in a certain type of dream that shows a new program of how to do this.images of how to do this.
Did I generate a shiny nickle yet, or must I perform some more?

[Piratjenny]

I wonder I wonder I wonder

Is the desire to trancend the Ego not an action of the Ego itself, a desire born out of duality and out of the illusion that there is "improvement".

How do I identify what I want to trancend? What is the Ego? Is it seperate from the Self? Seperate from the Unconcious?

For me the published lecture is a beautiful anachronism from the seventies, a time when people still believed in the powers of organic food and group-therapy, in chancing oneself by going to India and finding the right guru... After going through one transformationtrip after the next many out of that generation know know that the Ego istself is the main tool for transformation: We need our anger, our frustration, our desire, our phantasies, our unpatience... Transcendence happens by working with feelings, by embracing them, not by the helpless attempt to get rid of them. PJ

[MrMonkey]

[/color]How do I identify what I want to trancend? What is the Ego? Is it seperate from the Self? Seperate from the Unconcious?

For me the published lecture is a beautiful anachronism from the seventies, a time when people still believed in the powers of organic food and group-therapy, in chancing oneself by going to India and finding the right guru... After going through one transformationtrip after the next many out of that generation know know that the Ego istself is the main tool for transformation: We need our anger, our frustration, our desire, our phantasies, our unpatience... Transcendence happens by working with feelings, by embracing them, not by the helpless attempt to get rid of them. PJ [color=Black]

transendance implies some form of movement...from ego (separate) to all (including ego).  This is how ego is identified, it is what one starts out with before starting out on the path the rid the ego.  If someone doesnt believe that their ego is problematic, why are they going to attempt to step beyond it in the first place?  Thats where those questions come in... theres a possability that one might start to notice just how subtle the ego is, and how it keeps one anesthitised (WOW! am I a bad speller! ) while doing damage all the while (in some circles, this is called denial/delusion).  The pain/distraction that the ego causes is what has motivated me to try and step past my ego.  Although it will probably always have its voice, I can make a choice as to wether or not I want to give it credance (by identifying with it, or rather- believing and acting as if the message it sends is the 'real me').  As far as the conscious/unconscious/self thing...I cant reply to that..I believe that is a matter of personal philosophy/belief.  For me, I have separated the term 'self' and 'ego/I'.  I define 'self' as my true inner being.  'Ego' or when I say 'I' to myself- by inspecting myself and my thought processes, I have come to the conclusion that my self-idenity is no more than a collection of all of my past history/environment.  There is no real 'me' that appears to exist with a will of its own (that a whole other thread).  I struggle and suffer in order to maintain this charade of an identity which I never even chose for myself! (as I believe things to be).  I wish to simplify my life, and experience less fear, and live in the moment...Those are the three things I expect to occur when/as I learn to step past (or ignore, or transend) my 'ego'.  'Ego'- a set of beliefs about self.  No beliefs about self, no ego.  You see?  Ego exists in the mind, the minds function is to discriminate or separate.

Have you ever experienced flow?  Any moments where you felt completly alive?  Fully creative and in the moment? (flow experiences occur often in sports etc).  Where was the 'ego' during this time?  Did you notice any thoughts of self-consciousness?  Did you second guess yourself?  There wasnt any room for it- thats why it wasnt there!  

Sorry- Im going off on tangents again.

I wish to trancend -not- to get rid of negative feelings, but to learn how to fully feel them in the moment and then not to hold on to them needlessly (function of the ego- taking away from the moment and usually instilling unnessisary fear as well).  I agree with you, feelings are nessisary, in fact- they can bee the very tools which help one step beyond grasping/suffering.

[Piratjenny]

No, you are not going off track. Flow as a metaphore is important in this context. Yes, I have experienced it...walking along the river, watching the sky and everything goes ahhhhhh......
But not experiencing this, feeling tight or angry does not bother me anymore. Its just like changing weather. I have little desire to chance my experience. There is always a sense of trancendence and a sense of loss. Its all part of Samsara. Love, PJ

[MrMonkey]

Synchronox-

wether or not you actually awnsered the question (which was intended for each individual to ask for themselves TO themselves)- I dont think I would give you a nickel, for the mere fact that I am learning too much from what you have to say.

I have found that 'I' cannot awnser this question no matter how hard I try...  what I experience as 'I' in any given moment is a mere fraction of who I am.  When I pin down one aspect, another materializes...  And I can never seem to concieve or experience the (w)hole.   ??? :-/

[joe]

If you have not transcended Ego then how could you understand Osho? How could the actual ability to witness consciousness exist in you if all you witness is the individuality of yourself and not the self that resides in all?
How would you know the difference and would you be able to recognize it if you touched it or experienced it?

[synchronox]

I love good conversation and that is what is going on here.

The ego is a center working overtime.  In my opinion, and I'm going to stop using that phrase because that is all I have, everything is just opinion that I state, I wish sometimes I could issue a Bull and talk to the masses collected below wearing a funny little hat and silk...wait a minute that is another string.  (I am an equal opportunity basher and not just after one form of nonsense, however)

The ego has had to do double work, back and forth between strategy and tactics.  To and fro, driving us crazy.  First, doing its main job of keeping us alive in a tooth and fang world.  Nature's world of survival of the fittest.  Adopting tactics for trying to stay in defensive equilibrium during childhood, building a library of these tactics in the unconscious and then flashing them on the screen of life as required, triggered by similar events at the current moment.   That is ego driven by archetype.  An archetype hides in the middle of each complex that we have.

The second job is the one that is preformed with great clumsiness.   The strategy of life.  This should be a fully conscious strategy generated by free will.  But the ego has been captured by all the archetypes that have been stored in its storehouse of archetypal responses.  So, no free will.  The resultant chafing and worrying drives us to distraction.  The strategy program is still resident in the unconscious.  The instructions of emergence are available and appear in different forms in about two dozen religions, and movements that have apeared in the last ~6,000 years.  Not understood by the ego-archetype alliance.
Is this too heavy, or should I go on? I have an intuitive thinking complex that I still work on, so I have to check every once in a while.

[The_Raven]

cool

[synchronox]

PJ, Hi,

Your right, for the ego to transcend itself is an immpossible task.  A task taken on by millions with an equal numbers of approaches.

The ego is a component of the psyche, right now it is in the top spot.  We are an 'act of becoming' to do away with the annoyance of being mislead by Descartes' "I think, therefore I am"  Thinking is only one of the four functions we possess, so the statement is misleading to begin with.  Secondarily, if he was not Christian, he would have been killed in a summary way, so the arguments are skewed.

So, what do we do? if you accept the premise that there is some other agency than the ego.  Most in this dilemma turn to a concept of God.  But if there is no way to directly apprehend God, then what?  To rest on a belief system alone is very one sided and not grounded.  We still live in this world.

I went on a search for this very illusive 'thing'
I think and believe, (ha) that there is a way.

The way is initially found in a cross cultural study that I have done of about two dozen cultures over the last twenty years.  I did not do this study to publish, only to satisfy my own gnawing doubts.
Some cultures that contain similar systems within their structure as an example are:  Christianity, Gnosticism,  Hellenistic tradition,  The Tao de Ching, Toltec tradition, Aesclepius and the healing tradition, the Alchemists, Jungian thought, Huna, Tuarta de Danann, Rumi's tradition, Knights of King Auther, etc.  At first, I was just looking for a good place to rest my weary bones.  But, then I started to see the dim outline of something else contained in the mosaic of the tiles of each movement above.
That was not enough, it had to fit into this world with its science.  So, I had to take the ideas over to that side to see if they would curdle in the light.  They have withstood my initial tests.
I know I have found  the system, as I employ some of its tools on an everyday basis, each day bringing new discoveries.
It has allowed me to initially describe the shape of the psyche and activities there.  So I can answer some of your questions that you raised about transcending the ego.
I am just this side of overwhelmed, the job of exploration is enormous.  I cannot do this by myself.  I also do not expect anyone to have faith in my own statements.  What I need is a few to help me get this out and investigate so as to have more than the statement of a single person.
Thanks for listening.
John

[Shawn]

hi John,

Your comparative study sounds very interesting.  Perhaps you could tell us a bit more about this, and also what the tools are that you employ on a daily basis.

QUOTE

I also do not expect anyone to have faith in my own statements.  What I need is a few to help me get this out and investigate...

I think you'll find that more than a few people here have faith and are very interested in hearing more about your ideas, me being one of them.

take care,
Shawn

p.s. btw,  when you talk of 'transcending the ego', do you simply mean ego-death or the ego transmuting into uber-ego?

[synchronox]

Thanks Shawn,

First, What I will talk about is complex so does not have a simple answer to explain it.  That is the greatest barrier that is to be overcome.  We are complex, the description of who we are is complex, where we are going is more complex, that description is more complex.  That does not mean that there is any difficulty in explaining this, only the answers necessarily have to have a multi-level response.  My difficulty in explaining this phenomena is attempting to craft language to fit the description.
Let me explain, we have two words for awareness with an abstracting quality that humans possess.
They are consciousness and its counterparty, unconsciousness.
If I want to indicate that the ego is unconscious, meaning it thinks it is making decisions on its own, when in reality the decisions made are driven by unconscious contents what word is there that is common enough in useage is there to use?  If I say unconscious then everyone says, well I know I am conscious so that is a misnomer.  We need an update in language to accommodate some of the new areas we are about to encounter when having this discussion.  My word for this condition, btw, is arconsciousness.
So, when we cross this border, we have to be together for more than just a moment to make the trip.  This is not just theory like a good story.  I have put it into practice with a number of people.  This loosely affiliated group is in the same area and practicing these techniques in various workshops and classes that take place and have taken place over the last three years.
So, Ill post this and immediately get to the specific questions you ask and attempt to answer them.

[synchronox]

To continue.


"Your comparative study sounds very interesting.  Perhaps you could tell us a bit more about this,"

This would take a book's worth to answer, but essentially, there is a common structure in these myths, movements and religions that can be seen using a tool I term  'reflective resonance' to formalize it.  To look at the data as teaching stories that are mainly in metaphor in these stories and then compare them reveals a structure that is quite clear to see.  

So, since most are familiar with Christianity, let us use this structure, convert it to myth status and look at it in a different way.
Christianity is an old teaching story that was around in different forms before Jesus.  Reference, Justin Martyr, 100-167 CE, who appended the name Christ to Jesus of Nazereth in 160CE.  He said  Christianity was an ancient tradition then.  He was the son of pagan Greek parents residing in what is Jeruselem today.
Now I do dream analysis, another tool (the first is reflective resonance above) I use it on a daily basis, which requires the interpretation of symbols. when applied to Christianity, watch the effects using the technique on just a few concepts:
Immaculate conception:  Birth of a process with no biological assistance.
Crucifixion:  Death of the ego state on the four functions
Resurrection:  The rebirth of a new process (which includes the ego in a new form) that replaces the old process of the ego which had passed away.
In the Trinity:  First the Father, a metaphor for the neoSelf; Son, the ego; Holy Ghost, the intermediary container that contains the process of transformation, that is really an array of components that appear and are a part of the 'transcending' process.
I could go on with these interpretations, some one could write a book on this alone.
But, this is a mere post.  Jesus was a Gnostic, he acted like one.  The Gnostics were dreamers, having a dream based culture, so no wonder Christianity is so responsive to dream analysis.  He was also a healer, practicing the art of dreaming, just like Aesclepius, who told the people he healed to go into the field and dream of the snake., His practices are the foundation of today's medicine (Hippocratic oath, taken from his follower, Hippocrates also the emblem of medicine is the entwined snakes of Aescepian origin-the caduseus).   To understand this is to start to realize that much of our entire civilized structure is based on visions not reason.   Christianity is a composite religion made up of various practices that existed 2,000 years ago, put in one container and allowed to exist in its tortured form by the Romans, who always converted and used any philosophy or religion in its control of its empire, but that is another story.
So, now you possibly can see my dilemma, too much story, so much, it is just this side of overwhelming.
The main purpose of this investigation was not to produce some interesting facts, but a search for the pathway to what is turning into our next evolutionary step.  The quest for the Holy Grail, an intuited container that transcends the wounded Fisher King, the ego similar to the Holy Ghost above.  But that is another story.  I'll answer the other questions, but don't want to lose this to the computer gremlin.

[Piratjenny]

Dear John - thank you very much for your mail.

I am not sure if I have much to contribute to this discussion. Although I was an Osho sannyasin and Yajrayana pracitioner for fifteen years the concept of Ego simply never appealed to me. For me the whole model is based on linear time and the illusion of improvement: Take the philosphical slang aside and it means: Something inside is wrong, something causes pain, it needs to be fixed, then I will feel happy and the world will be a better place. A lot of assumptions.

About myself I can say that I have developed with the years, with time, with ecstatic and traumatic experience a stronger sense of self. There is nothing inside of me I would like to be taken away. Every emotion, every sense of discomfort or stress, pain, chealousy is a precious piece of information and belongs to me. The psyche is an ecosystem and all things have their space. I don´t want to be „pure“ or „aware“. I don´t care much for higher conciousness, I like to be in touch with soul, with self, with unconciousness, with raw life. For me transformation happens when I take my clothes off and run into the storm...

From my own cross-cultural/cross gender studies (No, I am not trying to launch another feminist jihad on you...;D) I always notice that men will have a hard time to interest women in the Ego debate. Most of these discussions are led by men. In my own work with Tibetan nuns I noticed that even women who follow their spiritual practice for 18 hours a day show very little interest in result or Ego transformation. Their basic focus lies on practice and meditation.
Love, PJ

[synchronox]

PJ,

I understand what you say.  It is necessary to the plot that the ego be defined in order for me to point out where we are and where we are going.  I see the ego as not too well understood for its function as a component of the psyche.  It is easy to mistake what it does from what it is.  I plan to make that distinction here.  I also will commit the main heresy of being a man and describing the main difference between men and women beside physiology and hormones.  Forgive me ahead of time.
Alright, here is a peak:  Men are free to be left brainers,
that is what makes us such a pain in ass to women.  We are Focused attention, meaning we can concetrate on the head of a pin and frequently do.  Thinking function dominated.  The main connections for thinking are in the left hemisphere.
Women are Defused attention, set up to nurture an hairless ape over a decade, the nurturer, warm, feeling oriented, with the bioelectric activity located in the right hemisphere along with the connections.
Check hexagram I, the creator against hexigram II in the I Ching for the Chinese descriptors.  Not that I get themfrom the I Ching, but agree with them.
Note #1  I am talking about dominance of one hemisphere over the other,  for instance, men are such slow feelers compared to women.
Note #2.  The dominance  switches from one side to the other, it switches if you have not been recognized or loved for your true attributes while young in an 'immune system' response of the mind to protect the original child at any cost.  This is the main factor in most deseases of the mind and body.  And the main reason for our discontent.  I don't mean to treat this lightly, it is of enormous importance and is a lot more complex in nature then what I lightheartedly indicated here.
Lovely things to a Lovely person he said bravely,
John

[synchronox]

Shawn,
To continue with your short questions and my long answers, (can't help it).

You said the following:

'......and also what the tools are that you employ on a daily basis.

I have mentioned two, so far, add the rest that are posted in a post of mine on the string on "Creativity" and there are several more that I will feel comfortable tallking about after the discussion gets to a certain place in the road.

" "on May 12th, 2003, 5:47pm, synchronox wrote:
I also do not expect anyone to have faith in my own statements.  What I need is a few to help me get this out and investigate..." "
"I think you'll find that more than a few people here have faith and are very interested in hearing more about your ideas, me being one of them. "

Yeaaa!!!

Now for the prize question of the day innocently masquarading as a  post script.


"p.s. btw,  when you talk of 'transcending the ego', do you simply mean ego-death or the ego transmuting into uber-ego?"

I can only touch or high spot on information in this area.
I possess it and can talk about it in a pragmatic way, but here again it will take a book to cover the aspects of the response to this question and my present temperment chafes at writing books.  I attempted to and had the outline done for six of them.  Luckily my computer crashed and I only had paper remnants.
Luckily, because by that time, my process had gone dead in its tracks  (It takes energy to do the Work), I had a sore back and neck from sitting all the time and my mood was disturbed-and I am not a good writer.

So, here is my view, first the ego does get transcended, but only its job description changes.  It dies in its dominance over the present organization of our system  It is then ressurected as a component of a largersystem. Living on as a part of a larger system playing its vital role of the tactical general on the outside.  It is partnered up to its senior but, equal partner, the neoSelf.   This the death of the ego referred to by visionaries that see this in visions but have no idea how the system works as they do not ground these ideas in science, as I am attempting to do here.
 I am changing Jung's term of Self to the neoSelf for two reasons.
The first and least important is it is confusing and hard to destinguish  between yourself and your Self, for instance, both having entirely different meanings.
The second and most important reason is I now recognize what the neoSelf is-it is the organizing principle of our next evolutionary step.  What we are to become in the next transition.  Hence, we are at present, an 'act of becoming' during this transitory phase.  I do not select these words and phases for arbitrary reasons.
To better understand this an example is the difference between living and seperating out from the dependency on the tribe to living abstractly as a seperate individual.  Something that the emergence of the ego did about ~ five thousand years ago.  If you lived in a tribe and were banished, you would die in a matter of days as you had no mechanism to survive alone, for instance.

Next, how is it possible to make this transition?  That is what causes all the verbage to flow and what is so confusing.  Everyone has an ego opinion.  Or if they have come in contact with this next step what they bring back is so lofty, with the appearance and discription of a God that it is frequently mistaken for God.
You can tell, the descriptions are so vague and generalized, almost to be discoherent.  With generalized intuitions that are hard to apply in this hard-scrabble world.   The ego alone does a very bad imitation with this message.  So, in the two dozen cultures mentioned above there are manifold clues.  By paying attention to this process  you start to generate a distinct third intermediary 'container' for the process.
This container begins as your own 'witness' and grows from there.  It is brought to life with your intentionality to become something other than you are.  This is not a dead process.  I have brought it to life in my own process and some other people as well.  It reflection and resonance is seen in other cultures.
The vehicle that I use I am calling 'controlled visions', (to borrow from the Toltec tradition where they label this controlled folly,  further garbled by Castenada as lucid dreaming) a cornerstone of the right and forebrain activities, that are usually not controlled and disrespected for that reason.  Then further mangled by the resistance and desire not to get replaced by the existing ego   (The ego by itself has a personification as a Nazi in dream symbols)  It is the beginning marraige between right and left brain activities on a simultaneous basis with a new 'operating system'.  The Androgyne with a new partnership giving guidance.

Who is still with me? he cried out in a panic

[MrMonkey]

synchronix:
I am following you...somewhat, I think...and anxiously await more nuggets
This sounds interesting...for some reason, it reminds me a little bit of Gurdjieff's 'Work'.  When I set about practicing, that was the one aspect that I couldnt quite grasp- creating a new 'self' (neoself)- my views have since changed, that, combined with what you have just articulated just made this little 'click'- thank you!

Ok, so this 'neoself'- it is created, and to be used in place of using a 'God' to trancend ego? Correct?  Please also describe 'controlled visions', what do you mean by that? -from my previous Gurjeiff 'Work', this separate entity was created somehow via friction caused during mindful observation- yet another process I couldnt quite grasp, but that is another discussion- I dont want to throw a wrench into this conversation and muddle it up.  

Please go on to describe your process, Im quite interested...

[Piratjenny]

You wrote:
"Women are Defused attention, set up to nurture an hairless ape over a decade, the nurturer, warm, feeling oriented, with the bioelectric activity located in the right hemisphere along with the connections."



Nice letter John, but I so so difused already, must run back to the cave, pick up a few berries and nuts on my way and breastfead the hairless apes!  
Love, PJ ;D

[synchronox]

Dear PJ,

Yes, I know what you mean,  I got so tired of the heavy work, you know, hauling that heavy club around, killing animals 10x my size, dragging you women around by the hair. that I quit.  I went into a recovery program, the one for the 'Recovering Man'.
It is so successful, I have started a new one, the recovery program for,  'The Recovering Child'.  It has the smell of success about it, there are so many wounded children around........including me.

Love in the bushes,
John

[Piratjenny]

John
 :D  :D

LOve, PJ

[synchronox]

Mr. Monkey,
Yes, Gurdjieff was/is facinating.  One of the many mystics that intuited a little different way to go.  He was a Sufi with a Sufic tradition to draw upon.  My ordained Sufi name is Akbar, btw.  I picked up an array of various titles in my 'live' research.
In the final analysis, we just have us.  There is no magic other than what we can create ourselves.  We cannot pick up someone else's bag of tricks and use them.  We are so individualistic others people's magic does not work.  
So, we need to examine what we possess, that is what I am doing.  I am trying to develop tools to take us to a higher place.  I can take clues from other peoples experience, taking a little from here and there to compose somthing that exactly fits.
I notice that this civilization we are in is right brain oriented, logical, word oriented, the world of reason.
We have another side of the head worth of capabilities, this world is the one of the feeling intuitive, filled with visions, phantasy, dreams.  It is chaotic and not organized except by a few pioneers.
I am trying to do the impossible and organize this world into a useable predictable tool to augment what we have.  After all most of the great discoveries came from this side.  Kukule, Einstein, Archemedis, Aesclepius, Paracelsus, etc. not from the reason side but the dreaming side.  It is real pioneering work and I am awed by what little I have discovered.
In concert,
John

[Theresa]

Anyone who thinks a babies "ego" (sense of self) begins after being born needs to go hang out at the local obgyn's office and watch a few sonos while they're being done.

Theresa

[Piratjenny]

Excellent point, Therese.
Love
Piratjenny

[Theresa]

Maybe that's why women rarely jump in to the ego arguments pregnancy and child birth gives you a different point of view.

Theresa

[Piratjenny]

Yeah, discussing ego is the spiritual man´s car talk.... ;D

Is there a female perspective on the self? Or do we simply prefer to eat apples in paradise and stay away from grey theories? How is it for you?
Very nice to have you here!
Love
Piratjenny

[Dan]

I think it's pretty funny to think of a 'spiritual' man, to me 'spiritual' means feminine and most men aren't too thrilled about going all the way in that direction

8)

[numinoso]

Yes, only few appreciate the idea of becoming transsexuals.

[synchronox]

Hi, Theresa, What are your observations on the condition of of a babies personality?  I'm interested, as I believe we are born with an original personality that soon gets masked by society and parental demands to conform.

I think the next role of nature's dice will see the pendulum swing back to a matriarchal/matralinear society as it was about four thousand years ago.  Most temples were dedicated to women back then.  Then the men took over and the fights began.
This constant emphasis on technology is both enhancing and deadly.  Our ability to be ethical, loving and peaceful went out the window when the men took over as the dominant power in this patriarchal world.
I am not a patronizer, so let me save you your first post.
I also do not have time in this tiny, short life of mine to wait for nature's fanny to make this change.  That is why I am interested in the construct of the psyche, including the ego so I can get there ahead of her.  You see she trundles and I have the ability to run to offset her huge advantages.
PJ, Have you heard the story about the Garden of Eden before St. Augustine rearranged it in the fourth century to suit men?