God/Religion a creation of the powerfull human mind ?/! Options

[Lindsay]

Lindsay, Yes it is almost fairly. ...

But my question remains: What do want to do about your proposition: Do you want to debate it? Or to dialogue about it? IMO, even so-called normal people are mentally imbalanced, now and then.

BTW, how would it ever be possible to judge the mental health of any of the ancients? The bottom line, as I see it is: What moral good was accomplished by what they said and did?

[Joesus]

You know Joesus I really wanted to comment to what your saying but I won't, the main reason I opened this thread is because in my opinion the 'phropets' had nothing more or nothing less then a brain desease what is called Schizophrenia nowadays.

Well it looks like you did comment even tho you said you won't. By the way I had an opinion once...

They just spread 'gods wise words' at the right time and place.

Gods words!!??...Say hallelujah!!!
This brings up an interesting idea. Evidently you are saying one thing and doing another, do you think you are schizophrenic, and do you believe that God is a schizophrenic delusion because of what you have been told by some authority, or because of what one of you has told the other of you?

Even a healthy person can have a experience with 'god' etc. just by poppin' a LSD stamp.

A healthy person can have an experience of God without creating an altered state of mind through artificial means. The experience is much more grounded in the sense of real perception and it is most likely that the doubts that follow the use of hallucinogenics as to whether the experience was real or not, will not plague ones senses when they trip again and fail to have the same experience.
Generally speaking when one experiences God in a normal state of mind the experiences may change but the presence of God does not, and it does not leave ones senses as it does when one trips.

From this point I do want to continue...

This is good, then I won't have to answer the second person who repeated their statement that they weren't going to continue, the second time.

The life on earth is a miracle, and that makes the universe a miracle, as the earth is part of the universe.
All those billions stars and planets, it's just one of my favorites to think about, that we are possibly not alone, if we ever can travel at the speed of light without getting vaporized to explore what else is out there.

Well your never alone if you're schizophrenic...
OK... joking aside. What makes something a miracle, is usually when the mind is stretched a bit and the left hemisphere of the brain is stimulated. It is the logical side of the brain where the right side is the intuitive side. Generally speaking most men are left brain dominant and women are right brain dominant, which is why men and women fail to see eye to eye all of the time.
As I mentioned once before if you were to bring a Television into the experience of someone from the dark ages they would think it was either a miracle or demonic. Since they were so superstitious they pretty much made anything that wasn't normal demonic, but if they were a bit more open minded and less paranoid they would have looked at the television with awe and amazement because they wouldn't have imagined something like it could be real and exist.
Such is the state of mind that human evolution creates when it doesn't understand something but sees it as a part of reality.
When science gets a hold of it and breaks it down, it doesn't become miraculous anymore it becomes mechanical. Just like when science gets a hold of someone experiencing split personalities, it breaks them down into mechanics that are relative to what is known as not a broken human.
100 years from now will science look at current technology as we do the dark ages?

Anyway God is mechanical as well as intelligent. Its reflected in us and in the universe. Nothing is random, everything is precisely located and has a perfect function. That it appears miraculous to us just means we can't wrap our limited minds or experience associated ideas around it. Best way to expand our sense of awareness is by changing the way we look at things and to look at it through a different set of eyes.
Hence the teachings of the Masters such as Jesus and Muhammad. They were hardly delusional, in fact they were pretty clear, while the rest of humanity during their time were still trying to match wits with the goats and the chickens. The men were treating their women like their livestock and most men weren't much smarter than their livestock.

The goats and chickens of that time were less worried about survival and superstitious phenomena than the humans, which I think put them ahead on the evolutionary scale. They probably would have dominated the planet as a species if they could have become a bit more aggressive and started eating the humans for food like the humans were doing to them, but being herbivores they didn't have a chance.

[YoungS]

(1)Evidently you are saying one thing and doing another, do you think you are schizophrenic, and do you believe that God is a schizophrenic delusion (2)because of what you have been told by some authority, (3)or because of what one of you has told the other of you?

(1)yea I think that religious people are having one massive delusion believing 'god' exists, the illusion that 'god the higher power' is in control on everything that exists, happens and will happen.
(2)No autohority need to tell me this, infact some people suffering from schizophrenia get 'closer to god' whilst some (like me) see the light at the back of the tunnel that the brain is that powerfull (even when chemicals are imbalance) to play tricks on us, that triggers believes (delusions) of the excistens of 'god' or whatever that has no proof of connection to reality.
(3)What do you mean by saying this?

Do I believe these things? Absolutely. I've seen and experienced a few things in my life that go beyond the normal comprehension of belief and relative laws of science as it is, in its infancy.

You seem to keep ignoring what you started, let me guess, because you never expierenced anything then the reality of life?

Well your never alone if you're schizophrenic...

mmm.. a joke about trippin' on acid and a joke about a illness, where world wide 1 out of 100 suffers from. Put it on a scale, let me know what the display says about you.

Just like when science gets a hold of someone experiencing split personalities

Hence the teachings of the Masters such as Jesus and Muhammad. They were hardly delusional, in fact they were pretty clear

Maybe you should look up the symptoms (specially what is called positive symptoms) of schizophrenia instead of translating the Greek word.
Once you have done that, compare it with the 'prophets' maybe you will see some connections.

[YoungS]

@ Lindsay,

I prefer a debate.

(1)even so-called normal people are mentally imbalanced, now and then. (2)how would it ever be possible to judge the mental health of any of the ancients?

(1)true, that's when people (don't know how to put it correct) have unrational thoughts and expierences. Some end up in psychiatry, most of them recover without any help, looking back at a weird time in their lives.
(2)As a diagnosed schizophrenic for me this means that my brain could not process that what was happening in my life and to compensate, my brain created a demon and angel. Looking from that point of view it's more likely for me that the brain had chemical imbalances rather then demons and angels really excists. And off course no one really knows what there (ancients) mental health status was but it seems awful lot like the expierence of schizophrenics claiming to hear and talk to 'god', have visions, having a different reality. That, in my opinion, made them special (a prophet) for the people that lived in that time.

The bottom line, as I see it is: What moral good was accomplished by what they said and did?

By claiming they were 'gods son or speaker' bringing a mass psychosis to the world where we still live in. In other words nothing more than a illusion that is a start in almost every war.

[Joesus]

(1)yea I think that religious people are having one massive delusion believing 'god' exists, the illusion that 'god the higher power' is in control on everything that exists, happens and will happen.
(2)No autohority need to tell me this, infact some people suffering from schizophrenia get 'closer to god' whilst some (like me) see the light at the back of the tunnel that the brain is that powerfull (even when chemicals are imbalance) to play tricks on us, that triggers believes (delusions) of the excistens of 'god' or whatever that has no proof of connection to reality.
(3)What do you mean by saying this?

1) If over 90% of the human race believes in a God of some sort and not all of them think they are religious then you might be in a minority that labels them religious and delusional.
2) The brain is a mechanical receiver, it works through the grace of consciousness itself. Without consciousness it is a dead piece of flesh, which is 99.99% empty space.
3) Never mind, you aren't really listening anyway..

You seem to keep ignoring what you started, let me guess, because you never expierenced anything then the reality of life?

The reality of life is what we are discussing. You see life according to your own personal experiences and definitions.
You seem to want me to prove my experiences but you can't really let go of yours to allow them to be real without me proving yours are wrong or mine are right, but its not about right and wrong. Life is not a debate or an argument. Children have their experience of life until they grow into greater comprehension of life. Until they reach a state of conscious awareness where comprehension is expanded some things just aren't understood other than at a level that is attached to personal space and limitations of identification with ego.

mmm.. a joke about trippin' on acid and a joke about a illness, where world wide 1 out of 100 suffers from. Put it on a scale, let me know what the display says about you.

According to the science of Yoga, or spiritual Union anyone who doesn't experience Oneness with God is suffering, which is more like 99% of humanity.
If I am in Union with God it makes me a minority.

Maybe you should look up the symptoms (specially what is called positive symptoms) of schizophrenia instead of translating the Greek word.
Once you have done that, compare it with the 'prophets' maybe you will see some connections.

I can see whatever I want, anyone can, but what remains above and beyond likes and dislikes, wants and aversions, life and death is the only real thing. Maybe you should look closer into what the prophets said rather than to make any assumptions according to superstition.
The Son of God is everyone, it is the Christed (anointed) consciousness that lies within humanity and for the most part dormant until one turns their senses and awareness in another direction rather than toward the movie screen to make the movie real rather than the one observing the movie.
The Son of man is the flesh or the body and its brain, the image on the screen created by the consciousness that is the Son of God.

Jesus never said he was the only Son of God, that would be delusional. The people who twisted religion for the purpose of political and spiritual control made him the only Son of God.
You should really step out of this anger you have toward religion and learn to see it a bit more objectively.
Take some time to really study where Christianity came from. It actually has its roots in Eastern spiritual philosophy that is very close to Hinduism and Vedic sciences. Jesus studied with the masters in the Orient during his teens and early adult years.

[Lindsay]

YoungS, here is how I read you:

I heard you say: "Certain powerful individuals--for example, Jesus--who claimed and preached to the masses that they were God's son, or God's earthly incarnation, eventually brought on a kind of mass psychosis to the world--the kind of world in which we now live. In other words, they brought nothing more than a illusion that is the cause of almost every war."

As I said before: Jesus, IMO--and not all Christians agree with me on this--taught that we are all the sons and daughters of god, not just him.
Have you read John 10: 34 and John 17: 20-24?
If so, what does this mean to you? If not, why do you avoid reading it?

[rhymer]

Hello YoungS,

First of all, I welcome you to Brainmeta.

You are quite obviously a thinker and prepared to ask the usual questions about Faith which many people do ask.

The key thing to realise about Faith is the meaning of the term. If we do not know something (about which we don't understand too much) we have to find reasons ourselves to explain them, or read of what other individuals believe explains them.
If you do choose somebody elses ideas as adequate explanations then you obviously want to align your own thoughts with those beliefs and have Faith in them.
For me, none of the described Gods or religions hold the True answers to our questions. They may each hold some Truth, but not the whole Truth, in my opinion.
Keep reading and try to reason the Truth for yourself and don't fail to read the wise men of the past and the present - the questions have been around for thousands of years.
Good luck.
PS. Bear in mind that one of your correspondents believes that if a man believes he can walk off a cliff and not fall to the floor below then he can walk off cliff and not fall to the floor below.

[Joesus]

PS. Bear in mind that one of your correspondents believes that if a man believes he can walk off a cliff and not fall to the floor below then he can walk off cliff and not fall to the floor below.

Who in hell would believe that!?......

[rhymer]

I don't believe there is a place called Hell so no-one is there!

You may not remember who would believe the cliff story (perhaps because I forgot to mention that the person walking of the cliff has to an enlightened person). Believers wouild fall to their death.

The references for the identity are:-

BrainMeta.com Forum > Philosophy, Truth, History, & Politics > Philosophy > What is God?

Mar 26, 2004, 06:21 PM

Rhymer
One man who sees in front of him a 1 mile long cliff edge ie., a big drop, steps forward.
Another man [who is standing beside the first man] has Faith that there is level ground in front of him and steps forward.

What happens to the two men?

Joesus
If the one who has faith is enlightened then enlightened man keeps walking and the one that sees his reality as he believes it falls and dies.

[Joesus]

Using that point of reference the quote:

if a man believes he can walk off a cliff and not fall to the floor below then he can walk off cliff and not fall to the floor below.

is misrepresented.
The enlightened man does not rely on belief but on knowledge of truth.
Take for instance a person who can ride a bicycle. He does not believe he can ride a bicycle he knows he can ride a bicycle. The knowing is not subject to changes in belief or any belief system. The fact that he can is stamped into his being.

So if we return to the March '04 conversation and put it into its proper context, the man who has faith and is enlightened does not operate from belief but from knowing.

A miracle is super-law in operation---the effectual working of subtle powers from the manifesting principals of God's astral and causal realms of creation. How these subtle forces support and impinge on physical phenomena is unknown to ordinary persons. The incomprehensibility of the miracles recorded in the Bible thus reduces otherwise intelligent minds to blind dogmatism or scornful skepticism. But why should there be cause for doubt when Nature constantly excites man with new revelations?
Jesus prophesied: "Greater works than thes shall ye do." (Verily. verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me [becomes more attuned to the universal intelligence of Christed Consciousness], the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do" -John 14:12)
He knew that the law of cause and effect was creating in this world an evolution of consciousness through which future generations would possess in incremental measure the means to bring about accomplishments theretofore considered miraculous. Amazing advancement will be witnessed as the the present ascending evolutionary cycle continues toward its apex.
Scientific and Spiritual knowledge will work more and more in harmony and ultimately in unity when humanity will gain the knowledge of the subtle laws that operate in the inner cosmos of consciousness. The spiritually evolved human being, gaining access to the microcosm of the spiritual eye, dissolves delusions, vibratory boundaries encapsulating the physical universe and brings on earth the super-physical capabilities of heaven.
Already many of Jesus' phenomenal feats can be deemed credible because of modern physics, at least in defining principles long known to masters who manipulate these cosmic formulas as easily as a scientist mixes elemental substances to create new compounds in his laboratory. Avant-gardes of science, true seers in their fields, have pried open the agelong-sealed core of the sacrosanct grossness of matter to reveal its electromagnetic structure, and to glimpse the startling wonders of matter sublimated into scintillas of light metamorphosing into consciousness, mind-stuff.

"What impresses our senses as matter is really a great concentration of energy into a comparatively small space," writes Professor Einstien,...Albert Einstien and Leopold Infeld, The evolution of Physics: The Growth of Ideas from Early Concepts to Relativity and Quanta (Cambridge university Press, 1938)

And the renowned astrophysicist Sir Arthur Stanley Eddington explains: "The world we see and experience in everyday life is simply the convenient mirage attuned to our very limited senses, an illusion conjured by our perception and mind. All that is around us (including our own bodies) which appears so substantial is ultimately nothing but ephemeral networks of particle-waves whirling around at lightning speed colliding, rebounding, disintegrating into almost total emptiness---so called matter is mostly emptiness, proportionately as void as intergalactic space, void of anything except occasional dots and spots and scattered electric charges.
(The Nature of the Physical World, Cambridge University Press, 1928)

In The Mysterious Universe (Cambridge University press 1930) Cambridge University physicist Sir James Jeans declares: "Today there is a wide measure of agreement, which on the physical side of science approaches almost to unanimity, that the stream of knowledge is heading toward a non-mechanical reality; the universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears as an accidental intruder into the realm of matter; we are beginning to suspect that we ought rather to hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter--not of course our individual minds but the mind in which the atoms out of which or individual minds have grown to exist as thoughts.... (The beginning of the scientific recognition of God)
"The old dualism of mind and matter...seems likely to disappear, not through matter becoming in any way more shadowy or insubstantial than heretofore or through mind becoming resolved into a function of the working of matter, but through substantial matter resolving itself into a creation and manifestation of mind."
"To put the conclusion crudely, the stuff of the world is mind-stuff," Eddington summarizes.

Boldly forthright about the limitations of merely material investigations, he has written: "In regard to the nature of things, [Scientific] knowledge is only an empty shell--a form of symbols. It is knowledge of structural form, and not knowledge of content. All through the physical world runs that unknown content, which must surely be the stuff of our consciousness. Here is a hint of aspects deep within the world of physics and yet unattainable by the methods of physics." (Space time and Gravitation: an outline of the General Relativity Theory...Cambridge University Press, 1920)

A bit more close to the subject of levitation or walking off cliffs...

"The levitating Saint" Many Christian Saints, including Teresa of Avila and Joseph of Cupertino have exhibited miraculous powers of levitation and weightlessness. The Catholic scholar Monsignor Albert Farges writes in Mystical Phenomena (London: Burns, Oates and Washbourne, 1926)

"In spite of the strangeness of these facts they cannot be doubted. Not only are they perfectly authentic, but moreover, frequent in the lives of ecstatic saints...They have often been discussed and verified in the processes of canonization...
"St Francis seems to have been the first stigmatic and also the first ecstatic whose spontaneous elevation above the ground was officially confirmed, but since that time verifications have been multiplied. Here are some instances:
" St Peter of Alcantara was unable to hear the lofty words of St.John, Verbum cara factum est ['The Word was made Flesh'] pronounced without falling into ecstasy and being raised above the earth.
The Franciscan, Biagio of Caltanisetta, went into ecstasy simply at the names of Jesus and Mary, and, enraptured with their beauty, sprang into the air. Blessed Giles , of the Order of St. Dominic, remained suspended in the air in ecstasy for whole nights without it being possible to bring him back down to earth..St.Thomas of Villanova, whilst preaching one day in his cathedral, suddenly went into ecstasy and remained suspended in the air for twelve hours."
The levitations of seventeenth century St. Joseph of Cupertino are among the most famous. The London Times reported on March 24th, 2003: "In a message marking the 400th anniversary of the birth of St. Joseph, the Pope said that the Franciscan friar, who was said to amaze congregations by levitating and flying through the air, was spiritually close to our times. He was the patron saint of aviators and students.. Witnesses record that after falling into an ecstatic trance, St Joseph would utter a loud cry and soar into the air, sometimes flying down the nave, and sometimes flying out of the church and across the hills for several miles. He was put on trial by the Inquisition, but when he flew over the heads of his inquisitors, the judges referred the case directly to the Pope, Urban VIII. The Pope dropped the case after apparently witnessing an 'ecstatic flight.' Numerous important people, including Fredrick, Duke of Brunswick, and Prince Casimir of Poland testified to having seen the flights."

[Lindsay]

Hello YoungS,

First of all, I welcome you to Brainmeta.

You are quite obviously a thinker and prepared to ask the usual questions about Faith which many people do ask.

The key thing to realise about Faith is the meaning of the term....

Rhymer, reading some of your comments it would be helpful to know a little more about your philosophy and theology. Unless you prefer not to comment on this.

Keep in mind: as a humane unitheist, there are many things about which I am agnostic.

BTW, I respect all sincerely held opinions, especially if they are based on the Golden Rule.
======================================
BTW 2, has anyone heard of the work of a Russian, self-taught physicist, who calls himself Socratus. Here is his site:

http://www.socratus.com/eng/abouteng.html

If anyone, trained in physics, can make sense of what he writes, let us know.

[rhymer]

Lindsay,
In answer to your post.....

I don't think there's a word with which I can be categorised.
I was brought up as a Christian in the C. of E. and very involved up to the age of about 25 in all aspects of Church work.
I still create flower cards and Religious weekend program sheets in support of the members of my wife's Church. I have even written one poem which spurs people to support their Church; it does not presume a religion.
I do not attend any religious occasions except births, marriages and deaths.
I do not believe there any Truths behind any God(s) or Religion.
I do know that Gods reside within temples (ie. behind the forehead).
I do not believe that Gods do not exist.
I just don't know, and seek the Truth with a contented disposition.
I think perhaps the best way I can describe my thought processes is to tell you that if I do arrive at a conclusion to some preponderance, as I model my vision of the world and external Reality, I will say to myself that "It's as if .........".
But, I do not know that I found a Truth.
Nonetheless, I do believe that very often I am close to drawing the right conclusions.
I respect everyone of any opinion even though I may disagree with them. Your frequent requests for dialogue rather than argument are an excellent idea. Egos need to be kept out of discussion; finding a common Truth is hard enough without folks trying to establish themselves as seers!

[Joesus]

Finding any common truth, is impossible when no one is a seer.

[rhymer]

It is possible that a person who detects a Truth is called a seer.
Who decides that any one person is a seer in your opinion?

[Joesus]

It is possible that a person who detects a Truth is called a seer.
Who decides that any one person is a seer in your opinion?

How could one possibly recognize a seer unless one has the ability to see themselves?
To that effect only one who sees can recognize a seer. Anyone else would be lacking any experience in identifying truth.

[Lindsay]

Lindsay,
In answer to your post ... I don't think there's a word with which I can be categorized.
I was brought up as a Christian in the C. of E.

Perhaps you have heard the old joke: C&E stands for Christmas and Easter. Perhaps like many of us, you are a pilgrim on the pathway of life. Initially, the first Christian were called followers of the Way--the journey, the pilgrimage, not THE way. Taoism, in Chinese, means the same thing.

"I have even written one poem which spurs people to support their Church; it does not presume a religion."
Could we see the poem?

"I do not attend any religious occasions except births, marriages and deaths."
It would be interesting to know: The size of the church; how many attend; the quality of the preaching; if it is thought provoking.

"I do not believe there any Truths behind any God(s) or Religion."
What about the role many church leaders, over the centuries, have played in helping bring public, education, hospitals, prison reform, the end of slavery and many other forms of about social justice. In modern times, for example, we have had the work of Martin Luther King, who gave his life to end segregation. Look what Bishop Desmond Tutu has done, and is doing, for his fellow Africans? Is this not a truth, and of great value?

"I do know that Gods reside within temples (i.e. behind the forehead)."
Jesus taught this. The metaphor in ancient times was the heart. They had little knowledge of the human anatomy. Carl Jung, and A.N. Whitehead--panentheism (Check Wikipedia)--and others, all spoke of the god with us. To avoid confusion with pantheism, I use unitheism (also in Wikipedia), as in my signature.

"I do not believe that Gods do not exist."
Why the double negative?

"I just don't know, and seek the Truth with a contented disposition."
Rhymer, I am an agnostic about many things. But I am a very curious agnostic who is keeping an eye on the sciences, especially what is happening in physics. Professor Seth Lloyd, MIT, is doing some very interesting work about the nature of the universe. In his book by the same name, he looks at the universe as a QUANTUM COMPUTER.

"... But, I do not know that I found a Truth."
THE CHALLENGE OF MONSTROUS SUFFERING AND PAIN
For me, I want life to be an infinite and eternal, never-ending and enjoyable process--like an interesting game, with just enough pain and challenge to make it interesting. Perhaps if we can learn how to harness the god-like power in the brain and the heart we will get the wisdom and power to do something about the monstrous kinds of suffering and pain--the kind which has no gain-value.

THE POWER OF INTENTIONAL LOVE
I have this feeling that there is great power for good in simply desiring to have a moral, ethical and loving intention--even towards people who are not all that good, and towards circumstances which are down right miserable. And I am not talking about just "whistling in the dark", trying to be a "Pollyanna" or finding a "Shangrila".

Wayne Dyer writes about this and lectures widely on THE POWER OF INTENTION. It activates what is called "the law of attraction"-- mentioned in the book and the video called THE SECRET.

THE ART OF LIVING CREATIVELY
With the help of philosophy and the sciences, plus the fellowship of others in a kind of creative community, I have the feeling that it is possible to find the power needed and the right balance of knowledge and wisdom to make life into a thing of beauty--a progressive work of art.

"I respect everyone of any opinion, even though I may disagree with them. Your frequent requests for dialogue rather than argument is an excellent idea." Thanks for this comment. It makes my EGO feel good!

Oh yes! You did mention the role of the EGO. Obviously, we do have egos. Now, perhaps we need to dialogue on the question: What is the role of the ego? Is the ego an evil part of our nature? Is it possible to be a loving ego?

ABOUT OUR EGO STATES--as children, as parents, as adults
How many have read the book about our ego states, I'M OK, You're O.K. ?

[Joesus]

Now, perhaps we need to dialogue on the question: What is the role of the ego? Is the ego an evil part of our nature? Is it possible to be a loving ego?

The ego is not an evil thing, however it is the only thing that will attach itself to everything that is determined to be evil.
When it comes to love, there is attached love which is love that likes and dislikes and is based on conditions. And unconditional love which is not based on attachment to conditions.
The spiritual teachings of Jesus were about unconditional love. The Love of God which supports all of creation regardless of its nature, and that includes the love for man who is attached to love of evil.

The ego identifies itself and its love according to what it wants to see and maintain in a world it calls real.
Jesus said "I and my Father are one, and my father is spirit." This meant that God the Father (whom man was made in his image), was not a thing, or an object but consciousness itself. He was eluding to the fact that the relative world was a temporary creation and that the permanent image was that of consciousness.

Micah 7
1 Woe is me! for I am as when they have gathered the summer fruits, as the grapegleanings of the vintage: there is no cluster to eat: my soul desired the firstripe fruit.

When man has lost his innocence he becomes withered, hardened and conditioned to internal programs of identity and attachment to what personality calls good and evil. For this man segregation is a way of life.
Jesus is saying woe is me for I have come to find the image of God tightly wound in belief, fear and separation. This is the epitome of ego that has become the master to man rather than the servant.
See the following verses..

2 The good man is perished out of the earth: and there is none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net.

3 That they may do evil with both hands earnestly, the prince asketh, and the judge asketh for a reward; and the great man, he uttereth his mischievous desire: so they wrap it up.

4 The best of them is as a brier: the most upright is sharper than a thorn hedge: the day of thy watchmen and thy visitation cometh; now shall be their perplexity.

5 Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom.

Here he says trust not in a friend being that anyone who is bound to the identifications of ego will not be thinking clearly but with a mind that is attached to feelings and emotions. Clear discernment cannot be gained by a mind that is emotional, for the emotions will prejudice a mans discernment of any situation, especially reality.
The friend Jesus refers to and that which lies in thy bosom which is referred to as 'she' is the ego, that is conditional love, and the emotions

6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house.

This is the culmination of conditional love. Even in ones own house or family a son will turn against a father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter in law against her mother, for a mans enemies are chosen through the ego's attachments to likes and dislikes, beliefs and emotional attachments to self serving ideas that may go against the growth of the whole family. This is self evident in the many beliefs, religions and political ideals that become the cornerstone for the position man takes in defending and fighting for, in and amongst the individual ego identity that is the reality of each other.

7 Therefore I will look unto the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me.

Therefore I will look unto the Lord, (Spirit, the Voice of God, The holy spirit, the creator of ego).




The example of Adam and Eve (intellect and emotions) being thrown out of the garden of Eden is based on the development of the ego as the foundation for perceptions of self. When the image becomes the master rather than the servant. When the Hermaphroditic spirit becomes divided by emotional love in its attachment to the earthly senses and one becomes lost to ones own nature.

"Our birth is but a sleep and forgetting: / The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting, / And cometh from afar:
Not an entire forgetfulness, / And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come / From God, who is our home:
Heaven lies about us in our infancy! / Shades of the prison-house begin to close
Upon the growing Boy, / But He beholds the light, and whence it flows,
He sees it in his joy; / The Youth, who daily farther from the east
Must travel, still is Nature's Priest,
And by the vision splendid / Is on his way attended;
At length the Man perceives it die away, / And fade into the light of common day...."

-Wordsworth, "Intimations of Immortality"

[rhymer]

To answer your questions Lindsay:-

"I have even written one poem which spurs people to support their Church; it does not presume a religion."
Could we see the poem?
**see below and use if you desire.
Churchill?


We’re all concerned when someone’s ill,
especially someone whom we love.
We soothe them with our sympathy;
send them to the doctor with a shove.

But have you ever stopped to think
what you'd do if the CHURCH was ‘ill’?
You could not give it a medical check,
fit a bandage, or give it a pill.

But if it is not working healthily
and we want it to be improved,
its problems must be identified
and eliminated before it’s soothed.

A Church is not just a building;
it’s the Members like me and you!
And herein lies the cause for ‘sickness’;
the faithful can get ‘sick’ too!

So, to make our Church a fitter place
lets point it and touch up the paint.
But, for a really big improvement,
lets change each sinner to a Saint!

Cast out bad habits and behaviour;
bring in care, compassion and love.
Our House will soon be in better order,
when we all give the Devil the shove.

We may not know who are the patients,
or who will ‘doctor and nurse’.
No one will wear a uniform,
it will be harder than writing this verse.

Some of the sick will make good nurses;
the Consultants may be very few.
Support is needed from everyone;
it will come, from God, through you.

Your Church needs you now !!!
Creative commons copyright (written by Portery).

"I do not attend any religious occasions except births, marriages and deaths."
It would be interesting to know: The size of the church; how many attend; the quality of the preaching; if it is thought provoking.
**Size, attendance and quality depends on where the event takes place and the sizes of Families and friends.

"I do not believe there any Truths behind any God(s) or Religion."
What about the role many church leaders, over the centuries, have played in helping bring public, education, hospitals, prison reform, the end of slavery and many other forms of about social justice. In modern times, for example, we have had the work of Martin Luther King, who gave his life to end segregation. Look what Bishop Desmond Tutu has done, and is doing, for his fellow Africans? Is this not a truth, and of great value?
**You are thinking of human actions and money spent. No God is required for those.

"I do know that Gods reside within temples (i.e. behind the forehead)."
Jesus taught this. The metaphor in ancient times was the heart. They had little knowledge of the human anatomy. Carl Jung, and A.N. Whitehead--panentheism (Check Wikipedia)--and others, all spoke of the god with us. To avoid confusion with pantheism, I use unitheism (also in Wikipedia), as in my signature.
**I mean the temple literally. God, if you have one, need only reside in your brain and not exist elsewhere. It is a concept, usually implanted by other people or their writings (my beliefs).

"I do not believe that Gods do not exist."
Why the double negative?
**The definition I use for agnostic is "A person who claims that they cannot have true knowledge about the existence of God (but does not deny that God might exist)" - from Wordweb. I cannot say I am agnostic because I do not claim that I cannot have true knowledge about the existence of God. (I don't presently have such true knowledge, but may do so at some time in the future).

[Joesus]

Continuing from the last post in regards to Micah and the ego...

In Luke 12 He puts it in different terms using similar phrases,

49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

In the first two phrases Jesus speaks of baptizing with the fire of spirit. Most think he has come to save them from the trials and tribulations of suppression by the Roman Empire, but he has no intention to save anyone from anything but instead to show people how to save themselves from perceptions of suffering that is bondage of ego or what he also calls hell.

51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

The division he exemplifies is to separate son from the father in attachment, same for mother and daughter etc. He is saying that when the ego is taken from the relationship of family what is seen clearly is the greater relationship of spirit to the manifest. When one extends themselves in the attachment to someone they forget who they are. The Soul does not die when the body dies, and Jesus also made reference to the illusion of suffering that goes with attachment when his Father Joseph died and Mary his mother wrote him to tell of her grief and the news of his passing.
Jesus basically told her in a letter that Joseph was not suffering in death but as she weeps she suffers due to her attachment to the body of Joseph. Once she realizes that she is spirit also they are forever united in the realms of consciousness and that suffering discontinues when one shifts their awareness to that which is permanent rather than temporary.

54 And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is.

55 And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass.

56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?


In these last three verses he states that one can tell when the weather is changing but they cannot discern the subtler levels of reality nor recognize truth of God. That, they have left to the imaginings of the Pharisees and have let them decide for them what God is, and what God wants from them.
In delineating roles and accepting blind obedience man suffers the consequence of allowing symbols to be his master rather than he being master over symbols.
One cannot surrender ones self to God without an experience of God and as such in blindness one cannot see other than what imagines, and if what one imagines is anchored to the past memories of conditioning then everything is seen through conditioning of past memories. As one ages the ego becomes more and more of an anchor to the relative world, making it more difficult for one to turn their attention toward the spirit or to God.
To the ego then God is symbolized or referenced in the imaginings of limitations. Even the infinite is bound to ones ability to imagine the infinite, and for one who is blind the imagination only extends itself to blind images of mortality.

[Lindsay]

Rhymer you write: "No God is required for those (humane actions)."

If by God you mean 'a' God as a being separate and apart from us in the three-dimensional and objective sense, I agree with you. Buddhism is big on humane actions, yet it is a non-theistic religion.

Ah, the challenge of semantics. This is why I prefer using the acronym GØD, which I use in my signature. I feel as close to GØD as I do to each breath I take, or thought that I think. In no way can I think of GØD as some one up, or even out, there.

GØD is at one with all that is;
at one with cosmos, earth, sky, sea.
GØD is at one with time and space
and all pervasive gravity.

GØD's one with faith and hope and love;
At one with knowledge, wisdom, power;
As goodness, order and design,
And present with us hour by hour.

GØD's in each living breath I take,
The root of justice and of peace,
The source of life, of health and wealth,
Producing joys which ne'er will cease.
=========000000000=========
Spring, 2008 Rev. Lindsay G King
==========================
BTW, thanks for your poem.
I have a thread for poetry in:
http://www.pathwayschurch.ca/forum/showthread.php?tid=100
Feel free to connect and submit what yours.

[YoungS]

Joesus,

If CERN research leads to more information about the excistens of the universe will you still believe that god created the earth in 6 days?

[trojan_libido]

@YoungS: I doubt Joesus thinks the Earth was created in 6 days.

@Lindsay: The term EGO has been adopted for convenience and has been kept alive by pop culture. The ID, EGO, Super-EGO etc. are terms that don't have any real scientific merit other than allowing discussions on human psychology. I've not seen any evidence that validates the term EGO. Its probably a rare case in the sciences in which a loose term stands for something so profound. Yet scientists are always against using loose terms.

Id, ego, and super-ego are the three parts of the "psychic apparatus" defined in Sigmund Freud's structural model of the psyche; they are the three theoretical constructs in terms of whose activity and interaction mental life is described. According to this model, the uncoordinated instinctual trends are the "id"; the organised realistic part of the psyche is the "ego," and the critical and moralizing function the "super-ego."

Even though the model is "structural" and makes reference to an "apparatus", the id, ego and super-ego are functions of the mind rather than parts of the brain and do not necessarily correspond one-to-one with actual somatic structures of the kind dealt with by neuroscience.

The concepts themselves arose at a late stage in the development of Freud's thought: the structural model was first discussed in his 1920 essay "Beyond the Pleasure Principle" and was formalized and elaborated upon three years later in his "The Ego and the Id." Freud's proposal was influenced by the ambiguity of the term "unconscious" and its many conflicting uses.

The terms "id," "ego," and "super-ego" are not Freud's own but are latinisations originating from his translator James Strachey. Freud himself wrote of "das Es," "das Ich," and "das Ãœber-Ich"—respectively, "the It," "the I," and the "Over-I" (or "Upper-I"); thus to the German reader, Freud's original terms are more or less self-explanatory. The term "das Es" was borrowed from Georg Groddeck, a German physician to whose unconventional ideas Freud was much attracted.[1] (Groddeck's translators render the term in English as 'the It').

Isn't the normal procedure that you come up with a theory, then attempt to disprove it. When the theory stands the test of time, it becomes accepted as the best model we can make.

There have been many attempts to understand conciousness, and I'm fairly sure this procedure was not followed.

I guess thats why psychology has not really been praised to the same level as biology or physics. For instance, lets say we accept the loose definition of ID, EGO and Super-EGO. Isn't the existence of split personalities and such a method to test those ideas?

At any rate, its important to know that these terms are simply a model used to forward Freuds own ideas. I'm sure there are a very large number of possible models he could have designed to fit with his views.

[Rick]

Psychology isn't really a science, is it?

[Joesus]

Joesus,

If CERN research leads to more information about the excistens of the universe will you still believe that god created the earth in 6 days?

And Why would I think the Earth was created in 6 Days?

This is a better story than the King James Version

CREATION IN SIX DAYS ��

by Alvin Boyd Kuhn

PROLOGUE

originally published in book form in 1947
by the Liberty Publishing Co. Liberty, Mo.

[Page 3] The "common man" knows in a vague way the massive fact that the modern mind has made more progress in precise and profound knowledge of life and matter in the last century than it had been able to make in more than two thousand years previous to this epoch. He is at times disposed to wonder at this surprising phenomenon, but it is not likely to occur to him at any time what might be the historical rationale underlying and explaining the event itself. And he would have to read a work like Andrew D. White's great two-volume History of the Warfare Between Science and Theology in Christendom to have had his eyes opened to the realization of a mighty fact of sixty generations of Western history, which would be likely to stagger his thinking beyond measure. He would, by such a work � along with others that would further strengthen its force � come to understand at last that a brutal, if sanctimonious, power dominant in the West for over eighteen hundred years held the mind of the entire Occident in leash, and with summary vengeance crushed down every movement of that mind toward the grasp of truth in the realm of scientific fact. And finally there would crash through into his intellect the explosive realization that this searching, prying mind of Western man has achieved more knowledge that can lift human life immeasurably, in the hundred years since it has been free from ecclesiastical tyranny, and able to think and broadcast its findings, than it had won in all previous history.

And if the logic of events had its course with him, he would conclude at last that the age-long despotism of priestcraft in European history has been the most blighting calamity that ever afflicted assumedly civilized humanity. Gulled by the natural influences of pietism and sanctity traditionally flaunted before the mass mind by religionists, he would never have sensed the diabolical character of religious tyranny, had not science demonstrated what the free mind could accomplish, once it had thrown off the trammels and shackles of churchly [Page 4] prohibition. Fifty years of freedom � and science has advanced the human race in vital knowledge farther than it had ever progressed in all previous time! It took this astounding development of modern achievement to tear the veil of pious blindness and submissiveness from off the common man's eyes, and to reveal to his unobstructed vision the ugliness and falsity of two thousand years of futile religious hallucination for his world of the West. The Dark Ages indeed! And science, crushed to earth for long generations, is seen rising at last to lift the pall of superstitious pietism from off the mind of Western man, to let it prove its immortal divine genius.

If this average man's resentment flares out against the still lingering power of pious religionism, as the result of this challenging denouement of contemporary history, it is only the just balancing of! the scales of cause and effect. Religiosity can lay claim to no exemption from the force of natural law on any fictitious grounds of exceptional sanctity of any kind. It is amenable to historical consequence of its actions as is every other segment of human expression. It can claim no immunity from the law of reaction. If it has been a frightful enemy of human happiness and progress for dreary centuries, it must expect to receive its due and proper flagellation at the hands of indignant revolutionaries and dissenters. If it is further to serve the race for humanitarian culture, it must be purged of its unconscionable ineptitudes, falsities and oppressions of every kind. If it is to serve as tool and instrument of benignant history, it mUst release thinking mind from its fetters and shackles.

Not only in the outer world of physical achievement and material progress has dogmatic theology imposed its bondage on the life of Western man, but it has tyrannously thrown its blighting ignorance likewise and just as fatally over the pages of Holy Writ. It has laid sacrilegious hands upon the tomes of ancient esoteric spiritual wisdom and devastated at one stroke the priceless true meaning of all the sacred lore. Besotted in ignorance of ancient Pagan philosophy and Scriptural symbolism already in the third century, ignorant religionists laid the monstrous hand of literal and historical gross-ness upon the precious volumes of cryptic literature and befouled all the meaning into senseless caricature.[Page 5]

It mistook allegory for history, dramatism for actual occurrence, myth for supposed veridical narrative. Ancient Pagan philosophers like Plutarch and Plotinus, Philo and Proclus, and even a few early Church Fathers like Clement of Alexandria and Origen, stood helplessly by and saw the horrendous despoliation and mutilation of the books of the great Mysteries of the Science of the Soul, as triumphant ignorance travestied them into weird and unintelligible "history". And in the wake of this great cultural catastrophe, and hard on the heels of the havoc and wreckage of the luminous esoteric spiritual systems of the Sages like Pythagoras and Plato, Orpheus and Hermes, there came crashing the inevitable debacle of spiritual culture, clinching its victory with, the closing of the Platonic Academies and the burning of priceless libraries. And over Europe descended the dismal murks of the Dark Ages. Unintelligent religious fanaticism crushed out not only the springs of possible science, but fatally submerged for eighteen centuries the potential enlightenment that lay cryptically concealed under the surface literalism of the Sacred Scriptures, and that needed only the keys to its esoteric secrets to unlock its treasures of golden truth.

But at last the night of dark ignorance has run its course. History is at last to be released from its throttling grip. The human mind awaits its final liberation from the thongs of mental bondage fastened on it for so long by a frenzied religionism demoniacally activated by ignorance. Together the new twins, reborn science and restored symbolism, are conspiring to undo the aeonial folly of a literal-historical rendering of the great Scriptures. Science arises with irrefutable data to shatter the pronouncements of religion as to man's creation and his life and evolution on the earth. The theological creation of the world in seven days is shattered forever, and the special creation of a first man and woman is likewise shot into the limbo of all such preposterous religious chimeras. The authoritative dictum of Canon Usher hardly two centuries ago that the world was created at four o'clock of a Thursday afternoon of November, 4004 B. C., and would come to its end at the corresponding day and hour in 4004 A. D., is now thrust aside as the delusion of folly. Late evidence is now at hand to prove that a civilization long hoary with age was extant in [Page 6] the Eastern Andes Mountain regions some four thousand years B. C. Further evidence is out in the light indicating that man was civilized unpredictable ages ago, even on continents now submerged beneath the ocean waves.

Science and symbolism now march hand in hand to retrieve the books of a genuine philosophy and an astoundingly deep esoteric wisdom from this pall of blighting misinterpretation. The Bibles still harbor the lessons of the purest morality and the highest spirituality ever held before mankind as the goals of evolutionary struggle and presented in literary form. But they offer this science and this wisdom to mankind in subtly veiled forms. One must learn how to tear off a mask of cryptic disguise from the face of the literal narrative of the sacred texts before the diamond brilliance of the hidden truth can be caught. With the aid of science's findings and symbolism's strategic keys, the work of unveiling the concealed sense of the Christian and other Bibles is here undertaken. The work is dedicated to the emancipation of the Western mind from the lingering remnants of Medieval bondage and to the illumination of Holy Writ with that ancient Light, which, rekindled in the modern day, may come in time to save a still religiously blinded humanity in the West. [Page 7]

Alvin Boyd Kuhn

THE STORY OF CREATION

The Bible begins, as it should, with the account of creation in the Book of Genesis. Its first words are: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." This primacy of creation in the Scriptures is due to the fuel; that the human mind must think of the universe as having had a beginning in time, as it seems to have undergone a growth or development now spoken of as an evolution. Under human observation all created things seem to begin and end at definite points. The world, the solar systems, the galaxies, the super � and super-super-galaxies now known to exist � the entire universe, must have had its origin from some potential creative source. So the Bible begins with Genesis.

But, in common with every other construction of ancient knowledge embodied in the mighty Scriptures given by masters of wisdom to early humanity, this creation story has been sadly misread and misconstrued. After the early centuries of Christian history the intelligence to read properly the profound meaning hidden in the archaic writings of the Sages of olden time vanished away and was finally lost. The very methods employed by these Seers and Prophets of the ancient day became a mystery and a lost art. For these writers did not use plain language, but embalmed their gems of wisdom and knowledge in constructions of fancy such as myths, allegories, drama, fable, parable, number graphs and astrological pictographs. These representations or "stories" were not intended to be taken as "true", as having literally occurred on the plane of history. They were in all external sense fictitious. But we will grossly and tragically err � as we have done � if we assume then that they are nothing but fanciful rubbish and valueless. We have committed a costly blunder by saying that they are only myths. We have vastly misunderstood, miscalculated the myth. The myth was designed by transcendent genius to convey to intelligence the deepest meanings the mind can grasp! The myths are myths of something, and that something is always the profoundest truth. The myths never happened, but they picture the significance and meaning of all that does happen in the long run of history. In the end they are infinitely more vital than history itself! [Page 8]

It is a doleful story, this loss of the ability to read the deeper meaning hidden under the Bible's artful constructions. It has left the world for centuries taking a childish instead of a mature view of the meaning of Scripture. It has darkened general ignorance instead of enlightening general intelligence. In place of revealing light we have had the grotesque and fantastic, the gross and preposterous maunderings of unintelligence as the outcome of centuries of study of the sacred texts. The tide of ignorance and superstition that flooded in to overwhelm the Gnostic teachings of early Christianity wrought world calamity. It is an awesome story, that blight of ignorance that fell in the third century upon the glorious philosophical systems of the ancient world. It has been told in the author's major works. It can not be reviewed in a brochure aiming to elucidate one small segment of the marvellous structure of ancient truth.

But it is desirable to state again that such a construction of the great archaic wisdom as the creation story in Genesis � and some fifty other ancient books � embalms a lucid meaning that has been lost, but which, if regained, would be priceless for its saving power over man's intelligence. The restoration of the lost meaning of the cycle of dramatic allegories in the Christian Bible is an event that will mark the present epoch as the date of the Western world's emergence from the Dark Ages into which the early loss of the esoteric keys to the Scriptures plunged it. No less than this restoration is the motive for the publication of this series of exegetical essays, every one of which will relight one of those burned out wicks of the ancient lamp of knowledge.
WISDOM HIDDEN IN A MYSTERY

Without the brighter light to clarify the meaning and with only the surface sense to guide the mind, the interpretation of Genesis has been badly warped out of true line. It has been taken to be a more or less intelligent effort to describe the formation of this planet and the life upon it, culminating in the creation of the human family. It was for a long time even considered to be an account of the geological and biological formation of the earth and its genera of living creatures. This low view engendered the long and dismal controversy between [Page 9] religion and science which went rather badly for religion. But there never should have been any such dispute, as the proper understanding of the story would have obviated at one glance |the possibility of a conflict between these two in the account.It was never an attempt of child-minded early humans to describe the genesis of the world geologically or biologically, though these elements of course are remotely intimated. They can be seen as belonging to the story if oriented in their proper place and relation to the larger principia of the outline. The narrative was, as stated, a glyph or secret code formulation designed with majestic form and beauty to portray for eternal remembrance the total meaning of life and its great processes of creation.

What those grand constructions, preserved in the books of "Holy Writ", really are has never been measurably understood. They in fact are much what Einstein's imposing mathematical and physical formulas are. They are not accounts of events, but formulas which graphically delineate the structure and meaning of all event. They equate and symmetrize the balance of forces that hold the universe in organic shape and function. This has not been known or seen as the basis of the interpretation of these stately old prints of cosmic process. Not for over two thousand years has their true message been caught in anything like clear vision.

The Genesis story of creation, then, is one of those luminous graphs, and is not at all the story of the creation of one tiny planet as its sole revelation. It delineates the design and structure of all creation! It is a formula that depicts the form of world process and the cosmic evolution of life at any place in the universe. Wherever life comes to manifestation it does so according to the pattern spread out to view in Genesis. So it is that pattern that holds the meaning and the supreme value of it all. To unfold any adequate measure of it in a treatise of forty pages is a task of great difficulty.

The seven Hebrew words in the first verse of the Genesis narrative challenge immediate attention. "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

The adverbial phrase "in the beginning" demands brief treatment. It asserts that creation had a point of beginning [Page 10] and by inference will have an end in the time process. This might not seem worthy of notice until one remembers that God exists from endless time to endless time and is without beginning or end. Why, then, should his creations have temporal existence, to be followed by annihilation and non-existence? The answer is found in a knowledge of the great philosophical archai, or fundamental principles, which, while they can not "describe" the nature or being of God, do outline the processes of his creative work. One of these laws by which he works is that of rhythm. God alternately sleeps and wakes to work, as do his creatures! Again, like us, he divests himself of all his "clothes" when he sleeps and similarly relapses into unconsciousness: and when he awakes he resumes his "clothing" and regains his consciousness. In this instance the "clothing" he doffs and dons again at the end and beginning of each period of creative work are the formations of matter which give him body to work with. We, being essentially "spirits", must have "coats of skin" or physical bodies to enable us to function in a concrete world. God labors under an analogous necessity and acts accordingly. He arises from sleep, puts on his garments of flesh and matter and sets to work.

The ancient books of wisdom virtually assert that God "lives" and "dies", or deploys his forces of being out into manifestation, clothed and instrumentalized in and by matter, and again withdraws them, retiring as the outer body "decomposes" at the end of the cycle, precisely as do our bodies, to live in bodies of finer invisible forms of matter. Matter is indestructible, but can be changed in form and constituency from visible substance to invisible immaterial essence. And it would be well if modern thought assimilated the difference between substance and essence in this view of matter. Matter can go out of existence and yet retain being or remain in being, And this is precisely what God does in his resuming a body and again dropping it, or dissolving it, in each creative round. His inner being remains continuous through it all, just as our identity remains constant while we are in sleep.

So we must know that while God is without beginning or end in his own interior being, his creations, building the bodies he is to animate in each cycle, have definite points of beginning and ending. The law of rhythm is his working principle.

[Lindsay]

Psychology isn't really a science, is it?

[Joesus]

Psychology isn't really a science, is it?

It is when it is used to control and manipulate.

Politicians and Churches have used psychology as their primary tool, to control the people.

[trojan_libido]

I thought we like to keep things based in science on this forum? Then I see terms like EGO etc. being thrown around and I'd just thought I'd point it out.

It is talked about and used as if its scientific fact, if its not science then what category does it fall under?

[Rick]

Magic?

[Joesus]

Spiritual science.

[Rick]

With reproducible results?