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> Depression After Exercise
yume
post Mar 22, 2008, 07:50 PM
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I have been struggling with this for some time...First off I suffer from depression, and as I know from research, etc Exercise is one of the best activities to engage in to stave off depression.

Here's where my problem lies, when Im training (ie I do strength training, boxing, muay thai, wrestling, Jiu-jitsu, etc) I feel great, sometimes not completely confident all the time (as with the combat types of training) but over all I have a rebound effect that is very stimulating and promotes wellbeing.

This lasts for about 1/2 hour afterwards, then suddenly I crash hard! To the point where I am in a deeper depressive state than when I started, often times I feel like just crying for no apparent reason. This even occurs when I have my best workouts.

What could be the cause of this? Are there others out there with similar experiences? Suggestions, discussion, etc.

Thanks

Yume
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yume
post Mar 25, 2008, 07:28 AM
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I've searched high and low for some answers and to no avail. Most people think Im nuts that this happens to me. I think its probably the neurochemical dump and then a drop off that with a little help on my part a "feeling" of being depressed, but its more mental than chemical or maybe a combination.

All the research Ive read has told me the opposite "Exercise Defeats Depression/Anxiety) it does not talk about any post exercise mood crash...I'll keep looking
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Flex
post Mar 25, 2008, 04:38 PM
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What are you eating before and after exercise? How long are you exercising?
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yume
post Mar 25, 2008, 06:57 PM
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Prior to exercise I eat some easily digestable carbs, minimal fat (research shows fat during exercise limits GH release), some whey protein and pleanty of water.

I exercise for about 1hour 15 minutes including warmup and cooldown. Post workout is a recovery shake I make myself using whey protein, maltodextrin, and mixed fruit as a smoothie, then about 1.5-2 hours later I eat again.

All this is based off current research in exercise nutrition (Im a strength and conditioning specialist)

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yume
post Mar 26, 2008, 04:35 AM
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you know what? I neglected to mention that I drink things like "endorush" and NO-Xplode, etc things with super high caffeine, synephrine, tyrosine, vinpocetine, dmae, octopamine, etc and at such high levels that that is porbably giving me that crash as I get a massive dopamine dump and then a drop off...

I was in hopes someone would help me with just such a stack (nootropic based) with out all the caffeine and synephrine or ephedrine that would be more stimulating but not cause a huge crash.

I have a post in cognitive enhancers on nootropics for this reason and am looking for an energy, depression, anxiety stack. Take a look at it, if you will.

BTW I think I just answered my own question as per above.

Thanks Flex
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Flex
post Mar 26, 2008, 01:08 PM
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QUOTE(yume @ Mar 25, 2008, 06:57 PM) *

Prior to exercise I eat some easily digestable carbs, minimal fat (research shows fat during exercise limits GH release), some whey protein and pleanty of water.

I exercise for about 1hour 15 minutes including warmup and cooldown. Post workout is a recovery shake I make myself using whey protein, maltodextrin, and mixed fruit as a smoothie, then about 1.5-2 hours later I eat again.

All this is based off current research in exercise nutrition (Im a strength and conditioning specialist)


Interesting, why easily digestible carbs before? What exactly do you consider easily digestible (high GI?)? You may want to try to eat lower GI carbs prior to workouts, to even out your blood sugar, and high GI immediately after workouts. Fruit tends to be very moderate as far as GI is concerned due to the high fiber content. I suspect your blood sugar is very irregular, especially considering the stimulants you mentioned.
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yume
post Mar 26, 2008, 04:57 PM
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Yeah thats about what I do, I stick to the lower GI prior and higher gi after...I think its the stim cocktails
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kma53
post Mar 28, 2008, 06:00 AM
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I have had similar experiences with exercise. I love it but if I have one day off of exercise, the next day I crash. Consequently I have tried to stay away from it and stick to walking. Shame really.

Hypothesis- soft bipolarity. There is exercise induced low grade hypomania which is maintained by very short acting neurotransmitters ( not going to comment on whether they are endorphin based or not, there is a lot of myth about why exercise causes feelings of well-being).

Anyway, these exercise induced neurotransmitters are rapidly metabolised and wallop depression walks in.

Whatever seems to be stabilizing mood is missing or weak and the brain gets overwhelmed by the loss of the exercise induced hormones.


So the key here is an unstable mood-i.e bipolarity




like i said though its just a theory . i would be very grateful if anyone else could shed some light on this
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yume
post Mar 28, 2008, 06:11 AM
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QUOTE(kma53 @ Mar 28, 2008, 10:00 AM) *

I have had similar experiences with exercise. I love it but if I have one day off of exercise, the next day I crash. Consequently I have tried to stay away from it and stick to walking. Shame really.

Hypothesis- soft bipolarity. There is exercise induced low grade hypomania which is maintained by very short acting neurotransmitters ( not going to comment on whether they are endorphin based or not, there is a lot of myth about why exercise causes feelings of well-being).

Anyway, these exercise induced neurotransmitters are rapidly metabolised and wallop depression walks in.

Whatever seems to be stabilizing mood is missing or weak and the brain gets overwhelmed by the loss of the exercise induced hormones.


So the key here is an unstable mood-i.e bipolarity



I like that theory, obviously is there is an imbalance in something here, but it does not help that I use stims prior to exercise, I have found a little green tea (actual tea) and 4g tyrosine with 10mg vinpocitine to work well without too much crash but at this point it is still in the works...The ones that make me worse off are the adrenergics like ephedra and psydo,syneophrine, octopamine, and DMAE how might these factor into the equation?



like i said though its just a theory . i would be very grateful if anyone else could shed some light on this

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yume
post Mar 28, 2008, 06:14 AM
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QUOTE(kma53 @ Mar 28, 2008, 10:00 AM) *

I have had similar experiences with exercise. I love it but if I have one day off of exercise, the next day I crash. Consequently I have tried to stay away from it and stick to walking. Shame really.

Hypothesis- soft bipolarity. There is exercise induced low grade hypomania which is maintained by very short acting neurotransmitters ( not going to comment on whether they are endorphin based or not, there is a lot of myth about why exercise causes feelings of well-being).

Anyway, these exercise induced neurotransmitters are rapidly metabolised and wallop depression walks in.

Whatever seems to be stabilizing mood is missing or weak and the brain gets overwhelmed by the loss of the exercise induced hormones.


So the key here is an unstable mood-i.e bipolarity




like i said though its just a theory . i would be very grateful if anyone else could shed some light on this



I like that theory, obviously is there is an imbalance in something here, but it does not help that I use stims prior to exercise, I have found a little green tea (actual tea) and 4g tyrosine with 10mg vinpocitine to work well without too much crash but at this point it is still in the works...The ones that make me worse off are the adrenergics like ephedra and pseuydo,syneophrine also octopamine, and DMAE make me feel weepy how might these factor into the equation?[b]




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RollR
post Jul 29, 2008, 06:17 PM
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I've had this problem for years and am just now figuring it out. My mood is simply not as stable as the average I'd say, at least as far as responding to exercise goes. After about half an hour of exercise I start flying high, which is fine as it doesn't seem to impair judgement. This lasts for up to half a day after a full day of hard pulling. (I climb, paddle, hike etc). Then I crash for two to three days-- not an ideal situation. I've found I only crash if I've pushed really hard, i.e. stressed my system a lot, either physically or mentally. If I'm careful to keep the workout more mellow then I can still get the high without the crash after. My theory is it has something to do with stress hormones and sensitivity to same.
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Guest
post Aug 19, 2008, 12:49 AM
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Weight is all we care about.
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Guest
post Aug 19, 2008, 12:50 AM
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Guest
post Sep 01, 2008, 11:34 AM
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Hi i get this problem too

i just woke up majorly depressed..

i went for a run last night, felt on top of the world!

but this morning i didnt want to get out of bed, i hated the world sad.gif

i dont wanna give up running because i love it! but this crash is pretty full on.
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Hey Hey
post Sep 01, 2008, 05:54 PM
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QUOTE(Guest @ Sep 01, 2008, 08:34 PM) *

Hi i get this problem too

i just woke up majorly depressed..

i went for a run last night, felt on top of the world!

but this morning i didnt want to get out of bed, i hated the world sad.gif

i dont wanna give up running because i love it! but this crash is pretty full on.

Could you try running for a shorter time period, or cutting the long run into several shorter ones with a recovery period in between? Or maybe try winding the running down over a time period, so the intense run becomes a slow run, running on the spot, a walk and then ... maybe lifting the remote? But seriously, halve your run time and then use the other half to physically wind down. It might prevent the all or nothing related crash. Or take antidepressants - they aren't all so bad, and who knows you might only need a low prescription. I mean, running is no more vigorous than gardening a large plot for half a day! And I don't remember many gardeners mentioning this problem. So it could be you are a depressive and this has just highlighted it. No big deal, many people are. Just speak to a doctor and try some meds. (And keep off the high caffeine supplements as they can cause a sort of mania - often connect with and depression's alter ego.) Good luck with this.
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ole meph
post Sep 01, 2008, 06:34 PM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Sep 01, 2008, 05:54 PM) *

QUOTE(Guest @ Sep 01, 2008, 08:34 PM) *

Hi i get this problem too

i just woke up majorly depressed..

i went for a run last night, felt on top of the world!

but this morning i didnt want to get out of bed, i hated the world sad.gif

i dont wanna give up running because i love it! but this crash is pretty full on.

Could you try running for a shorter time period, or cutting the long run into several shorter ones with a recovery period in between? Or maybe try winding the running down over a time period, so the intense run becomes a slow run, running on the spot, a walk and then ... maybe lifting the remote? But seriously, halve your run time and then use the other half to physically wind down. It might prevent the all or nothing related crash. Or take antidepressants - they aren't all so bad, and who knows you might only need a low prescription. I mean, running is no more vigorous than gardening a large plot for half a day! And I don't remember many gardeners mentioning this problem. So it could be you are a depressive and this has just highlighted it. No big deal, many people are. Just speak to a doctor and try some meds. (And keep off the high caffeine supplements as they can cause a sort of mania - often connect with and depression's alter ego.) Good luck with this.


Have you considered that your depression may have nothing to do with your running? Often when things occur, at or near the same time, or in some order, our minds correlate the separate events. There may be no cause and effect working here, at all. Depresssive, anxiety and other mental states just seem to come and go on their own, independent of outside events.
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otto
post Sep 03, 2008, 03:30 PM
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Yes. Yes. Yes.

As an engineer I realized many years ago that my mood was linked to exercise. Whenever I exercised the following conditions would creep up within 2-3 hours and last for about 3 days:

-sweating
-nurvousness
-anxiety
-irritability & anger
-stiff joints & muscle pain
-lack of sleep
-depression

Continual exercise would only exasperate the conditions above with what I would describe as an almost compounding effect. In my case even fairly light exercise would lead to drastic changes in behavior.

Several years ago I tried to get an explanation but was constantly shouted down by the zealots professing how wonderful exercise and diet is. I took several tests to no avail. No amount of food, drink, diet, vitamins or other healthy lifestyle changes have ever made any impact on reducing my symptoms. Simply put exercise in any form is pure poison to my system.

I should probably mention that I was tested at one point for hypoglycemia but unfortunately that did not turn out to be the culprit. My wife's pleading finally got me to give up attempting exercise as the behavioral changes were just too drastic in nature and were going to get me fired at work. Fortunately I'm in good health with weight in check.

Final thought... I do realize that exercise is good in most people. My wife for instance gets all of the benefits of exercise plus a behavioral boost... like a "runner's high". In my case however exercise sends me like clockwork "through the roof" into a violent near non-functional state. As an engineer I wish I had a solution but unfortunately I've yet to find a cause.
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Rick
post Sep 03, 2008, 04:31 PM
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It takes all kinds, I guess. I would never have known. Exercise has positive results in me and all the people I know.
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jack1211
post Oct 22, 2008, 09:47 AM
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Yes, Even I experience it, not regularly, but some times. But there are many sites that you can refer to for Depression Treatment.
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james007
post Jan 09, 2009, 04:02 PM
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I get these symptoms also. I am about to try the holy basil.
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Trip like I do
post Jan 09, 2009, 04:32 PM
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I just finished working out and I feel fantastic!

pump pump
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brigid
post Jan 22, 2009, 10:28 PM
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i have this also.

I will start out with 20 min. walks, and after about a week, I have a huge increase in depression. I feel best when I don't move. Movement makes my brain fire to quickly or something.

For 3 decades now I have had to go through this with friends who want me to walk with them, or encourage it, to help depression. Of course they think I am coping out when I say it makes things worse.
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Hey Hey
post Jan 23, 2009, 07:24 AM
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If I wasted my "once in a lifetime" time exercising, I'd feel depressed too! (My cat, like many, lies about sleeping all day and goes outside for a few minutes each day for a pee or other thing. He's 12 years old, looks and acts as fit as a fiddle. I'll mention this exercise thing to him - after I've put on some gauntlets!)

Hang on, does walking to the kitchen to put the kettle on count as exercise? I'm feeling depressed already, but I'm desperate for that cup of tea!
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NewTruth
post Mar 11, 2009, 07:20 PM
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QUOTE(otto @ Sep 03, 2008, 06:30 PM) *

Yes. Yes. Yes.

As an engineer I realized many years ago that my mood was linked to exercise. Whenever I exercised the following conditions would creep up within 2-3 hours and last for about 3 days:

-sweating
-nurvousness
-anxiety
-irritability & anger
-stiff joints & muscle pain
-lack of sleep
-depression

Continual exercise would only exasperate the conditions above with what I would describe as an almost compounding effect. In my case even fairly light exercise would lead to drastic changes in behavior.

Several years ago I tried to get an explanation but was constantly shouted down by the zealots professing how wonderful exercise and diet is. I took several tests to no avail. No amount of food, drink, diet, vitamins or other healthy lifestyle changes have ever made any impact on reducing my symptoms. Simply put exercise in any form is pure poison to my system.

I should probably mention that I was tested at one point for hypoglycemia but unfortunately that did not turn out to be the culprit. My wife's pleading finally got me to give up attempting exercise as the behavioral changes were just too drastic in nature and were going to get me fired at work. Fortunately I'm in good health with weight in check.

Final thought... I do realize that exercise is good in most people. My wife for instance gets all of the benefits of exercise plus a behavioral boost... like a "runner's high". In my case however exercise sends me like clockwork "through the roof" into a violent near non-functional state. As an engineer I wish I had a solution but unfortunately I've yet to find a cause.


Oh my God... I have the identical story. I'm 55 and female.. yet the exact same thing happens to me when I exercise. What to do? I am going to PM you..
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post Mar 12, 2009, 04:51 AM
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QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Jan 09, 2009, 04:32 PM) *

pump pump

And then jump up to get down!!!
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catseye
post Mar 12, 2009, 08:23 AM
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In my work as a LMT I have often seen similar reactions with clients expressing/releasing strong emotions during treatment. The cause in most cases by what I have learned, is cellular repressed memories. The cells in our body hold memories of our life experiences and become repressed if not appropriately released, especially in the cases of harmful experiences. Often only to be released by subconscious associations through physical therapy or exercise.

Although this may not be the case with everyone as some are chemically produced, such as excessive caffeine or other stimulants and with some chems that are used for athletic enhancement. But with most of my clients this experience is commonly a repressed memory that with the right guidance or personal attention by the client to come to full realization of the experience to consciously release and face it with courage and forgiveness.

In one session with a client I was helping him with leg pain when he began to uncontrollably cry, as we continued working I asked him to think back on any situation in his life that may have involved pain in his leg, such as an accident. For a while he could think of nothing, he lived a normal and healthy life. I asked him to think further back to early childhood. He then remembered of his mother telling him how he fell at a playground and fractured his leg at the age of 3. He barely had a conscious memory of it. As I worked I asked him to think on what he did remember, all he could think of was crying at the playground. As I finished the work his depressed emotions stopped and he even started laughing. Afterward the leg pain that he has suffered for years completely disappeared.

I have often found that abdominal work could be due to emotional disturbance, shoulders - mental and the extremities are often related to physical experiences. Below is one source to read up on if interested I can not post a ulr but that's the place to look up.
Hope this helps.

cellular memory org
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Hey Hey
post Mar 12, 2009, 12:26 PM
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Could be related?

Salt Might Be 'Nature's Antidepressant'

ScienceDaily (Mar. 11, 2009) — Most people consume far too much salt, and a University of Iowa researcher has discovered one potential reason we crave it: it might put us in a better mood.

UI psychologist Kim Johnson and colleagues found in their research that when rats are deficient in sodium chloride, common table salt, they shy away from activities they normally enjoy, like drinking a sugary substance or pressing a bar that stimulates a pleasant sensation in their brains.

"Things that normally would be pleasurable for rats didn't elicit the same degree of relish, which leads us to believe that a salt deficit and the craving associated with it can induce one of the key symptoms associated with depression," Johnson said.
The UI researchers can't say it is full-blown depression because several criteria factor into such a diagnosis, but a loss of pleasure in normally pleasing activities is one of the most important features of psychological depression. And, the idea that salt is a natural mood-elevating substance could help explain why we're so tempted to over-ingest it, even though it's known to contribute to high blood pressure, heart disease and other health problems.

Past research has shown that the worldwide average for salt intake per individual is about 10 grams per day, which is greater than the U.S. Food and Drug Administration recommended intake by about 4 grams, and may exceed what the body actually needs by more than 8 grams.

Johnson, who holds appointments in psychology and integrative physiology in the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences and in pharmacology in the Carver College of Medicine, published a review of these findings in the July issue of the journal Physiology & Behavior with Michael J. Morris and Elisa S. Na, UI graduate students. In addition to reporting their own findings, the authors reviewed others' research on the reasons behind salt appetite.

High levels of salt are contained in everything from pancakes to pasta these days, but once upon a time, it was hard to come by. Salt consumption and its price skyrocketed around 2000 B.C. when it was discovered as a food preservative. Roman soldiers were paid in salt; the word salary is derived from the Latin for salt. Even when mechanical refrigeration lessened the need for salt in the 19th century, consumption continued in excess because people liked the taste and it had become fairly inexpensive. Today, 77 percent of our salt intake comes from processed and restaurant foods, like frozen dinners and fast food.

Evolution might have played an important part in the human hankering for salt. Humans evolved from creatures that lived in salty ocean water. Once on land, the body continued to need sodium and chloride because minerals play key roles in allowing fluids to pass in and out of cells, and in helping nerve cells transfer information throughout the brain and body. But as man evolved in the hot climate of Africa, perspiration robbed the body of sodium. Salt was scarce because our early ancestors ate a veggie-rich diet and lived far from the ocean.

"Most of our biological systems require sodium to function properly, but as a species that didn't have ready access to it, our kidneys evolved to become salt misers," Johnson said.

Behavior also came to play a key role in making sure we have enough salt on board. Animals like us come equipped with a taste system designed to detect salt and a brain that remembers the location of salt sources -- like salt licks in a pasture. A pleasure mechanism in the brain is activated when salt is consumed.

So the body needs salt and knows how to find it and how to conserve it. But today scientists are finding evidence that it's an abused, addictive substance -- almost like a drug.

One sign of addiction is using a substance even when it's known to be harmful. Many people are told to reduce sodium due to health concerns, but they have trouble doing so because they like the taste and find low-sodium foods bland.

Another strong aspect of addiction is the development of intense cravings when drugs are withheld. Experiments by Johnson and colleagues indicate similar changes in brain activity whether rats are exposed to drugs or salt deficiency.

"This suggests that salt need and cravings may be linked to the same brain pathways as those related to drug addiction and abuse," Johnson said.

Journal reference:
Morris, M.J.; Na, E.S.; Johnson, A.K. Salt craving: The psychobiology of pathogenic sodium intake. Physiology & Behavior, 94 (5), p.709-721, Aug 2008, 2008; 94 (5): 709-721 DOI: 10.1016/j.physbeh.2008.04.008

Adapted from materials provided by University of Iowa.
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correlli
post Apr 18, 2009, 03:59 PM
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I would recommend some protein and carbs, Green Tea, Vitamin C, and maybe some Ginseng. The immune system drops after exercise. If you're crashing after exercise, you run the risk of infection.
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Ralph
post Apr 29, 2009, 10:51 PM
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I have had this problem, too, for many years. I used to fear working out because of it.

There is anxiety and depression in my family. My grandmother self-medicated with alcohol and my mom tends to get sad easily. In my 20s, I had panic attacks. Drugs related to valium like Klonopin could help with the panic attacks, but I realized the rebound anxiety was not worth it. Prozac finally ended my panic disorder over about a 2 year period.

Even after stopping Prozac, I noticed that exercise would lead to a panic state. As some on here have suggested, I began to think I must be hypomanic, borderline bipolar. Time and experience has led me to a different conclusion.

In my hunt for something which would help with the post exercise blues and grumpiness, I tried a lot of different things: SAM-e (improved my mood, but I was still agitated), Kava Kava (helped with the fear, but tended to do nothing for the depression), and 5-HTP (unpredictable; it would sometimes do the trick but I coudn't depend on it).

Finally, I tried something which led to a breakthrough for me: large doses of GABA (2 grams) taken on a nearly empty stomach. The effect wasn't immediate but within 2 hours, the fear was nearly gone and the agitation was replaced by a gentle sense of calm. It made me a little sleepy though. The afterglow lasted for two days.

Later, I found another form of GABA called Picamilon which is niacin bound with GABA. It gives me the calming effect without making me as sleepy. The niacin supposedly helps to pull the GABA through the blood brain barrier. An even better drug would be very low doses of GHB, but unfortunately, the feds have criminalized it.

In any event, my theory goes like this, the exercise releases excitory chemicals -- cortisol or excess norepinephrine -- and GABA is the big stop sign which slows everything down in the body. The agitation we feel after exercise is a result of the fact that certain people don't produce enough natural GABA to ameliorate the effects of the excitory chemicals. I would be willing to bet that most of those who have this problem already have a problem with anxiety and depression which the exercise causes to express itself more profoundly.

There are some treatments that you take and think to yourself "this is a decent solution, but not really a cure." For me anyway, GABA (either the supplement by itself or Picamilon) is pretty close to a cure.

I hope that this info helps. If it does, drop me a line some time and let me know: taite at panix dot com
Ralph
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Hey Hey
post Apr 30, 2009, 03:08 PM
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QUOTE(correlli @ Apr 19, 2009, 12:59 AM) *

I would recommend some protein and carbs, Green Tea, Vitamin C, and maybe some Ginseng. The immune system drops after exercise. If you're crashing after exercise, you run the risk of infection.
Sounds very authoritative. Could you provide the evidence please.
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