God, if He exists, cannot be omniscient, Proof Options

[Hey Hey]

Potentially billions of years in advance of us and no interplanetary travel? We are insignificant. Use imagination. Face it.

[Quantum]

Maybe its simply impossible for a lifeform from a planet to gain interplanetary travel?

With the galaxies getting further and further away from each other all the time, it's becoming more and more difficult for that to happen.

I recall watching an episode of UFO Hunters with my Mother in Law (she loves ghosts and UFO's), and the episode we watched involved one of the most convincing cases of all time (according to her). I should mention here that I love my Mother in law very much and enjoy discussing crackpot theories with her. This particular case was from the 1950's, a married couple claimed to have been abducted. Both were separated and put under hypnosis and described the entire ordeal remarkably the same way. However, the ordeal they described was preposterous. According to the couple, their car was forced off the road by a flying saucer (both described seeing aliens looking out windows at them while this was happening). Once they were off the road, the aliens jumped out of the saucer, beat them up like common thugs, and threw pink powder all over them. To my mother in law, this is proof that aliens exist and have been here. Yet in my view, that story is clearly fake. No aliens that are intelligent enough to get here are primitive enough to jump out of saucers and beat their victims up with their fists, botch the job of erasing their memories, and leave tell-tale pink powder residue all over their victims. That is clearly the way humans would have imagined abductions back in the 1950s. The dual hypnosis and shared story told under the influence is interesting, but that's about all. Actually, there was also the mention of a star map. The woman explained that the aliens had drawn her a map to their home planet, and she was able to draw it again under hypnosis. 10 years later that map lined up perfectly with a galaxy that was eventually discovered, but... if you are convinced that something is true you will find ways to make it true for yourself.

I think part of the problem with our society today is that we are convinced that we have everything figured out, far more than any human society in the past ever could have. Our huge modern day egos tell us that, the wisdom of past societies was naive and uninformed- we are much wiser today than to believe such rubbish. After all, we have the Internet now. Wow! Obviously, if these past societies were worth anything at all, they would have had cell phones. I believe the opposite- that we are idiots today, technology has made us arrogant and overconfident. I believe there is much we could learn from civilizations of the past, if we could only get over ourselves long enough to take an objective viewpoint. Many civilizations of the past claim to have been visited by aliens, and gleamed technology from them. Many civilizations in the past claim to have communicated directly with their Gods, spoke to them, saw them, interacted with them. Was God an astronaut?

Very interesting to consider, at least in my opinion.

[trojan_libido]

Many civilizations of the past claim to have been visited by aliens, and gleamed technology from them

Can you give some examples? The only one I know for sure, and they were probably influenced by the late 60's focus on the thought 'Pyramids were built by Aliens', was a tribe called the Dogon (I think that was it?). They apparently correctly identified Sirius to be a binary system of Sirius A and Sirius B.

Other than that one dubious example, most other examples have been given to a culture after they've gone, from heiroglyphs or cosmic myths.

[Rick]

That idea of we being the first. Does that mean we and this planet in and amongst 400 billion galaxies or we as a species in and amongst the 400 billion? Maybe extraterrestrials are our peers and this planet is the ghetto of the universe...

Is there any credible evidence for this?

[Rick]

Maybe its simply impossible for a lifeform from a planet to gain interplanetary travel?

It's good you're beginning to think about the limits of the possible. Certainly it's true that interstellar travel is not possible in the time spans we are used to thinking about (less than 10,000 years). Do the math.

[Rick]

Potentially billions of years in advance of us and no interplanetary travel? We are insignificant. Use imagination. Face it.

We are doing interplanetary travel right now. It's the interstellar part that's really hard.

[Rick]

... Yet in my view, that story is clearly fake. No aliens that are intelligent enough to get here are primitive enough to jump out of saucers and beat their victims up with their fists, botch the job of erasing their memories, and leave tell-tale pink powder residue all over their victims. ...

One UFO report is of a flying saucer with "UFO" written on the side. If they exist, the aliens certainly have a sense of humor. If the flying saucer theory of UFO phenomena is correct, then there are about 100 different alien species visiting earth on a regular basis. For all that to be happening with not one shred of physical evidence is extremely unlikely. The best explanation for UFO phenomena is the psychological one. Carl Jung expressed it very well. It's based on unconscious wishful thinking.

[Quantum]

Many civilizations of the past claim to have been visited by aliens, and gleamed technology from them

Can you give some examples? The only one I know for sure, and they were probably influenced by the late 60's focus on the thought 'Pyramids were built by Aliens', was a tribe called the Dogon (I think that was it?). They apparently correctly identified Sirius to be a binary system of Sirius A and Sirius B.

Other than that one dubious example, most other examples have been given to a culture after they've gone, from heiroglyphs or cosmic myths.

Of course. The example I was thinking of was the ancient Hindus who believed that some of their Gods were from other worlds who came to Earth sometimes to do battle. Here's some more info on them, and other ancient civilizations-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterrestr...ly_modern_ideas

I have not heard of the dogans, but I bet you are thinking of the dropa and dropa stones. I believe that was revealed to be a hoax...

Another good example is the Aborigines of Australia, who believe that beings called "Wondjina" created the world out of chaos and still check up on us, visiting in UFOs.

Ancient Babylonians believed that special beings visited them, who taught them unique skills. They were depicted as mermaids with fish tails in their pottery and artwork.

The ancient greeks also believed that their Gods spoke directly to them and interacted with them. The ancient greeks humanized their Gods, and tell about how they would quarrel with each other and become entangled as humans do. Demeter and Persephone were believed to have sent the other Gods to Earth with knowledge to aid man, such as agriculture and grain. Interestingly, many of these ancient Greek Gods appeared in different, separate cultures with different names but with similar histories, personalities, and purposes.

The part about gleaming technology I can not back up, because it shouldn't have wound up attached to that sentence. You are correct, those examples have been given to cultures after they are gone, in the form of hieroglyphs and cosmic myths. But that sort of post-culture "evidence" can be found anywhere. Easter Island is very interesting, recently someone tried to prove that ancient men could have lifted those statues, but he broke the face of one of the very smallest ones statues while getting it lifted (although he did get it lifted). The pyramid you mention as well. And the Piri Reis (sp?) map that shows Antarctica long before Europeans found it.

[Hey Hey]

Potentially billions of years in advance of us and no interplanetary travel? We are insignificant. Use imagination. Face it.

We are doing interplanetary travel right now. It's the interstellar part that's really hard.

If (!) there are extraterrestrials, the pre-human time scales since the beginning of the universe allow for such technologies beyond our understanding that ....

When I was a boy, I remember having to flap my arms to fly to holiday destinations, and just look at us now, depleting non-renewable resources to fly, oh hundreds of miles. Just (quite) a few more zeros and you'd be in place that wouldn't even exist by the time you got there! Speaking of which, as we look back in time (out there), IS there any evidence that there is anything actually out there now, beyond say Andromeda? If you believe there is (without evidence), then you have to give the extraterrestrial idea some credence too, eh? And cos there WAS something out there, is not one jot of use in knowing whether there IS something out there.

[Rick]

I sometimes wonder if people really understand Einstein's speed limit. Imagine that the diameter of the earth's orbit around the sun were the size of a dinner plate (as an abstraction only). Then in that scale, the sun would be the size of a small pea in the center of the plate. If an ant crawling on the plate were to represent a photon, it would take 12 minutes for the ant to crawl outward from the pea to the plate rim. That's a lot slower than even the smallest of ants normally walk. Imagine staring at that ant for 12 minutes. Light is really slow on the astronomical scale. It takes two hours for sunlight to reach Jupiter.

The nearest galaxy, Andromeda, is 3 million light years away. There is absolutely no hope that aliens from Andromeda, if they exist, could travel in a spaceship to earth in less than 300 million years. There is no credible speculative technology that can accelerate a spaceship to anything even close to one percent of the speed of light.

As Fermi said, if they exist, where are they? The only answer is that either we are the first, or they are so sparsely scattered in the universe that they can't get here.

[trojan_libido]

Dogon and Sirius
Certain researchers investigating the Dogon have reported that they seem to possess advanced astronomical knowledge, the nature and source of which has subsequently become embroiled in controversy. From 1931 to 1956, two French anthropologists, Marcel Griaule and Germaine Dieterlen, spent 25 years with the Dogon, during which time they were initiated into the tribe.[7] Griaule and Dieterlen reported that the Dogon appeared to know that the brightest star in the sky, Sirius, has a faint companion, Sirius B, which requires a fairly large telescope to be seen. They also claimed that the Dogon appeared to know of the rings of Saturn, and the moons of Jupiter.[8] Neither Griaule nor Dieterlen ever presented any verifiable evidence for any of these claims.

The idea was made widespread when author Robert K. G. Temple wrote a book suggesting an extra-terrestrial source for the Dogon's knowledge.[9] No additional verifiable evidence was presented. Previously, Griaule and Dieterlen had made no claims on the source of the Dogon's knowledge.

More recently, doubts have been raised about the validity of Griaule and Dieterlein's work.[10][11] The anthropologist Walter van Beek concluded after his research among the Dogon that,

"though they do speak about sigu tolo [which is what Griaule claimed the Dogon called Sirius] they disagree completely with each other as to which star is meant; for some it is an invisible star that should rise to announce the sigu [festival], for another it is Venus that, through a different position, appears as sigu tolo. All agree, however, that they learned about the star from Griaule"[12]

the Aborigines of Australia, who believe that beings called "Wondjina" created the world out of chaos and still check up on us, visiting in UFOs.

Gods in the sky are quite a common thing in the ancient world. In fact theres websites devoted to showing religious paintings of saints and strange objects in the sky. These can be interpreted anyway you like because its art. I do believe there is a strong correlation between ancient spontaneous spiritual awakening/crisis and modern UFO abduction phenomenon. The chemical I believe is responsible is endogenous DMT, a very potent true hallucinogen. Descriptions of humanoid hybrids are common, as they are in UFO abductions. These worlds have often been seen as spirit worlds, ie spiritual or Heavenly beings.

The same myths have been floating around in cultures all over the globe. The similarities of the Virgin Mary, Isis, Venus etc. are important, but only in a psychological and reinvented cultural context.

We don't create new ideas, we simply evolve old ones.

The ancient greeks also believed that their Gods spoke directly to them and interacted with them.

I think this technique was used as a method of telling stories of morality, or even to validate their Gods as lost heros or something. An example I spent a lot of time researching is Quetzacoatl, the Feathered Serpent. Same story, he came across the sea bringing civilisation, agriculture, and technology. But this can be explained by the phenomenon of Cargo Cults.

Easter Island is very interesting, recently someone tried to prove that ancient men could have lifted those statues, but he broke the face of one of the very smallest ones statues while getting it lifted (although he did get it lifted).

I read that the first attempt to place these Maoi like the ancients had took about 4 times the men and one man lost his life. Its amazing how quickly the human race can adapt and become an expert in specific tasks. Go into any factory and try and reproduce an operators Job where they're pushed to the limit every day - If you manage 60% speed of that operator then you're doing well. Practice really does make perfect - once the tradition of creating and placing those statues stopped, the skills quickly disappeared. Same as pyramid buildings, they increase in quality and decrease again. But Easter Island is very important in understanding all the phenomenon above. They built Maoi looking out to sea..were they expecting someone to come rescue them - a founder maybe?

the Piri Reis (sp?) map that shows Antarctica long before Europeans found it.

This one seems to be a true mystery, and may indicate a human development path thats a lot more cyclical than we'd like to think. Ice ages come and go, and plate techtonics keeps things fresh!

[Quantum]

... Yet in my view, that story is clearly fake. No aliens that are intelligent enough to get here are primitive enough to jump out of saucers and beat their victims up with their fists, botch the job of erasing their memories, and leave tell-tale pink powder residue all over their victims. ...

One UFO report is of a flying saucer with "UFO" written on the side. If they exist, the aliens certainly have a sense of humor. If the flying saucer theory of UFO phenomena is correct, then there are about 100 different alien species visiting earth on a regular basis. For all that to be happening with not one shred of physical evidence is extremely unlikely. The best explanation for UFO phenomena is the psychological one. Carl Jung expressed it very well. It's based on unconscious wishful thinking.

I don't believe any more than you that aliens take the time to fly here and there in their tiny little ships. I read an article in Wired magazine recently (my personal fave), that in 2050 man will achieve immortality because at that time, our entire brain, containing all of our thoughts and experiences can be recreated digitally. Thus, we would live forever as computer programs. Those who die between now and then are supposedly just barely missing out on the immortality that we will have access to at that time. Could these alien intelligences simply e-mail themselves across the universe? Computers are my passion, I particularly enjoy taking them apart and piecing them back together. For some reason I feel that there is some kind of connection between our universe and the way a computer works, but I haven't been able to put my finger on exactly why that thought lingers in my mind.

The only scrap of UFO evidence I've heard that really made me scratch my head was in another of those unexplained UFO sitings TV shows that I watched with my Mother in Law. The show played back recordings from two separate black boxes on two separate commercial airplanes heading to two different places. Both of the pilots, on separate black boxes, described the same submarine shaped object hovering at the same spot in the air, at the exact same place and same time. That gave me pause.

My mother in law yesterday at breakfast- "I just want to see ONE UFO." *she looks to the clouds* "They are so beautiful. Now I just want to see one UFO pop out..."

And then Rick, I was telling her about the possibility of different dimensions, and how gravity theoretically could leak from one dimension to another. Her eyes got huge- "So that is how Bigfoot comes and goes!" I truly just love that woman.

[Rick]

... Could these alien intelligences simply e-mail themselves across the universe?

Light can go about a thousand times as fast as matter transportation, but the speed limit still applies. It will take three million years for an email to get to Andromeda.

[Quantum]

... Could these alien intelligences simply e-mail themselves across the universe?

Light can go about a thousand times as fast as matter transportation, but the speed limit still applies. It will take three million years for an email to get to Andromeda.

True enough, but digital versions of life forms could hypothetically survive journeys of any distance or length of time.

[Rick]

... digital versions of life forms could hypothetically survive journeys of any distance or length of time.

Computational complexity issues enter when we begin to discuss transport of life form information. With even the highest bandwidth available the time it would take to send the message would far exceed the lifespan of the individual.

http://ssdoo.gsfc.nasa.gov/education/just_...n/startrek.html

[Quantum]

... digital versions of life forms could hypothetically survive journeys of any distance or length of time.

Computational complexity issues enter when we begin to discuss transport of life form information. With even the highest bandwidth available the time it would take to send the message would far exceed the lifespan of the individual.

http://ssdoo.gsfc.nasa.gov/education/just_...n/startrek.html

I must be missing something. Wouldn't a digital version of a life form "live" forever? Essentially, what I am suggesting is that alien life forms could have the technology to recreate (digitize) themselves as a series of 0's and 1's (assuming they don't possess a superior form of computing technology). Then, it would be a snap to send what would essentially be .exe files of themselves all over space, programmed to execute and unpack the life forms when they reach something potentially interesting. If it is possible for alien life forms to digitize themselves (as Wired says we humans will be able to do by 2050), they would essentially live forever as computer programs and the length of their lifespans would be completely inconsequential.

After all, if the article in Wired magazine is correct (I have to see if that's online somewhere- stand by), don't you think mankind would quickly send spacecrafts with totally digital versions of human astronauts to every planet in our galaxy? Think of the value of an astronaut who has no need to eat, sleep, breath, age, etc.

[Rick]

It would take thousands of years to read the information into the digitizer. A person would be dead by then, even if we could scan him in enough detail without killing him. Most of this speculative "technology" is based on fantasy and wishful thinking.

[Joesus]

What about wormholes or folded space?

[Rick]

What about wormholes or folded space?

Mere speculations for which there is no evidence. Most mathematical models have no physical counterpart.

[Hey Hey]

Then God is the only way! LOL

[Quantum]

It would take thousands of years to read the information into the digitizer. A person would be dead by then, even if we could scan him in enough detail without killing him. Most of this speculative "technology" is based on fantasy and wishful thinking.

Never heard of quantum computers? A quantum computer will "understand" 0s, 1s, and a superposition of both 0 and 1 at the same time. Quantum computers will solve problems in minutes that take today's computers years to solve. Of course we don't have the technology available yet... give us another 10-15 years.

And what do you think of the interpretation of quantum mechanics that implies that we create further and further reaches of space just by observing them?

[Joesus]

Then God is the only way! LOL

Always has been...

[Quantum]

Dogon and Sirius
Certain researchers investigating the Dogon have reported that they seem to possess advanced astronomical knowledge, the nature and source of which has subsequently become embroiled in controversy. From 1931 to 1956, two French anthropologists, Marcel Griaule and Germaine Dieterlen, spent 25 years with the Dogon, during which time they were initiated into the tribe.[7] Griaule and Dieterlen reported that the Dogon appeared to know that the brightest star in the sky, Sirius, has a faint companion, Sirius B, which requires a fairly large telescope to be seen. They also claimed that the Dogon appeared to know of the rings of Saturn, and the moons of Jupiter.[8] Neither Griaule nor Dieterlen ever presented any verifiable evidence for any of these claims.

The idea was made widespread when author Robert K. G. Temple wrote a book suggesting an extra-terrestrial source for the Dogon's knowledge.[9] No additional verifiable evidence was presented. Previously, Griaule and Dieterlen had made no claims on the source of the Dogon's knowledge.

More recently, doubts have been raised about the validity of Griaule and Dieterlein's work.[10][11] The anthropologist Walter van Beek concluded after his research among the Dogon that,

"though they do speak about sigu tolo [which is what Griaule claimed the Dogon called Sirius] they disagree completely with each other as to which star is meant; for some it is an invisible star that should rise to announce the sigu [festival], for another it is Venus that, through a different position, appears as sigu tolo. All agree, however, that they learned about the star from Griaule"[12]

the Aborigines of Australia, who believe that beings called "Wondjina" created the world out of chaos and still check up on us, visiting in UFOs.

Gods in the sky are quite a common thing in the ancient world. In fact theres websites devoted to showing religious paintings of saints and strange objects in the sky. These can be interpreted anyway you like because its art. I do believe there is a strong correlation between ancient spontaneous spiritual awakening/crisis and modern UFO abduction phenomenon. The chemical I believe is responsible is endogenous DMT, a very potent true hallucinogen. Descriptions of humanoid hybrids are common, as they are in UFO abductions. These worlds have often been seen as spirit worlds, ie spiritual or Heavenly beings.

The same myths have been floating around in cultures all over the globe. The similarities of the Virgin Mary, Isis, Venus etc. are important, but only in a psychological and reinvented cultural context.

We don't create new ideas, we simply evolve old ones.

The ancient greeks also believed that their Gods spoke directly to them and interacted with them.

I think this technique was used as a method of telling stories of morality, or even to validate their Gods as lost heros or something. An example I spent a lot of time researching is Quetzacoatl, the Feathered Serpent. Same story, he came across the sea bringing civilisation, agriculture, and technology. But this can be explained by the phenomenon of Cargo Cults.

Easter Island is very interesting, recently someone tried to prove that ancient men could have lifted those statues, but he broke the face of one of the very smallest ones statues while getting it lifted (although he did get it lifted).

I read that the first attempt to place these Maoi like the ancients had took about 4 times the men and one man lost his life. Its amazing how quickly the human race can adapt and become an expert in specific tasks. Go into any factory and try and reproduce an operators Job where they're pushed to the limit every day - If you manage 60% speed of that operator then you're doing well. Practice really does make perfect - once the tradition of creating and placing those statues stopped, the skills quickly disappeared. Same as pyramid buildings, they increase in quality and decrease again. But Easter Island is very important in understanding all the phenomenon above. They built Maoi looking out to sea..were they expecting someone to come rescue them - a founder maybe?

the Piri Reis (sp?) map that shows Antarctica long before Europeans found it.

This one seems to be a true mystery, and may indicate a human development path thats a lot more cyclical than we'd like to think. Ice ages come and go, and plate techtonics keeps things fresh!

I agree with you in all your points. And thanks for sharing the information about the Dogons, they are much more interesting than the Dropa. Even still, it appears that the extraterrestrial contact with the Dogons is the explanation of a man motivated to sell his book. Probably bunk.

Here is some interesting information on the Piri Reis map, and some other "unsolved mysteries of the world". I think most of these have been revealed to be hoaxes, but the map and the giant stone spheres of Costa Rica I believe are both real phenomena.

http://listverse.com/bizarre/10-more-unsol...es-of-the-world

The Ica Stones are just plain silly!

[trojan_libido]

For some reason I feel that there is some kind of connection between our universe and the way a computer works, but I haven't been able to put my finger on exactly why that thought lingers in my mind.

You're feeling the Fractal nature of things, in my opinion anyway. The Universe is speeding up, as it expands its also contracting inwards in complexity. I fear that we're expendable in the grand pattern unfolding, that we're merely a stepping stone for organised metals to continue forwards in an exponential fashion.

[Lindsay]

From Rick's first post:

"A world view that denies the property of divinity in the universe is called atheism, and a theistic world view affirms divinity. So deciding which is true requires determining whether or not there is divinity in the universe. The problem comes down to answering the question "is a world without divinity observably different than a world with that property?"..."

Then Rick adds, because of what we know about quantum physics "... the question above is answered in the affirmative, if we assume divinity involves omniscience: we can tell there is no divinity in the world because if there were, quantum mechanics would be very different than what we have found to be the case. QED.

Question: Rick, does the above mean that you now opt for atheism?

THE MIND OF NICOLA TESLA
As you know I have a unitheist world view--a step beyond theism. As a unitheist I think of the world as within GOD, which I think is what Nicola Tesla meant when he said: "God has no properties." GOD does not have wisdom; but IS Wisdom, Knowledge, and Power. GOD does not will or act, but rather IS the power we have to will and act.

Tesla was a devout and spiritually-minded believer in human potential. Genius that he was, he probably also knew a thing or two about physics, chemistry and mathematics
http://www.teslasociety.com/biography.htm

A state funeral was held at St. John the Divine Cathedral (Episcopal) in New York City. Telegrams of condolence were received from many notables, including the first lady Eleanor Roosevelt and Vice President Wallace. Over 2000 people attended, including several Nobel Laureates. He was cremated in Ardsley on the Hudson, New York. His ashes were interned in a golden sphere, Tesla’s favorite shape, on permanent display at the Tesla Museum in Belgrade along with his death mask.

ABOUT TESLA'S GOD HYPOTHESIS
http://redefinegod.ning.com/profiles/blogs...tesla-forgotten

QUOTES
“The gift of mental power comes from God, Divine Being, and if we concentrate our minds on that truth, we become in tune with this great power.
My Mother had taught me to seek all truth in the Bible.�

Nikola Tesla quotes ( Serbian Inventor and Engineer, 1856-1943
http://thinkexist.com/quotation/the-gift-o...ine/348206.html

[Rick]

Never heard of quantum computers? A quantum computer will "understand" 0s, 1s, and a superposition of both 0 and 1 at the same time. Quantum computers will solve problems in minutes that take today's computers years to solve. Of course we don't have the technology available yet... give us another 10-15 years.

And what do you think of the interpretation of quantum mechanics that implies that we create further and further reaches of space just by observing them?

There was an article in Scientific American a month or two ago about the limitations of quantum computers. It seems they won't be able to help much with the NP-complete problems. There's no free lunch. 50 years might be enough time to have practical quantum computers. The future seems to recede the closer one gets to it. I'm still waiting for my flying car.

I never heard that interpretation of quantum mechanics. I assume you aren't referring to the "many worlds" interpretation, with which I disagree. I also disagree with the Copenhagen interpretation.

The "known space" of the cosmos is expanding at the speed of light. That is, the boundary of a sphere represented by the cosmic background radiation (photon decoupling after the big bang) is receding from us at the speed of light.

[Rick]

Question: Rick, does the above mean that you now opt for atheism?

Still trying to categorize me?

I'm just finishing a book titled Philosophers Without Gods; Meditations on Atheism and the Secular Life, 20 essays, edited by Louise Antony. It's very good, of course. It's very good at debunking theism, but its primary target is the theism represented by mainstream Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Deism, pantheism, and panentheism aren't addressed in particular.

If a Christian is somebody who was baptized, confirmed, and thinks that at least some parts of the Bible are true, then I'm a Christian.

[Lindsay]

It was great in 2008,
Working together in all kinds of weather,
It will be fine in 2009,
No matter what the clime.
BTW, Jan. 14, I will be 79.
And, yes, I did mean to make a rhyme. LOL
To one and all, Happy 2009.

[Lindsay]

Still trying to categorize me? [Not in a judgmental way.]
... If a Christian is somebody who was baptized, confirmed, and thinks that at least some parts of the Bible are true, then I'm a Christian.

Narrow exclusive Christians would not consider you or me to Christian. We are too inclusive.

Whenever a fundamentalist, or anyone for that matter, asks me: Are you a Christian? My usual response if: Don't ask me; ask my neighbours and others who know how I treat them. IMO, Christianity is more about orthopraxy than orthodoxy.

The Greek 'christos' simply means one who is consciously aware that he/she is a spiritual being capable of making choices and who choose to live by the Golden Rule. In this sense there are a lot of "christians" who have no formal connection with a Christian church. Jesus is the Greek form of Joshuah Ben (son of) Joseph. He was Reform Jew.

Later, probably because of the work of Paul, Jesus was given the title Messiah, or Christos.
There is a good argument for the idea that modern Christians should be called Paulians.

[Joesus]

The Greek 'christos' simply means one who is consciously aware that he/she is a spiritual being capable of making choices and who choose to live by the Golden Rule. In this sense there are a lot of "christians" who have no formal connection with a Christian church. Jesus is the Greek form of Joshuah Ben (son of) Joseph. He was Reform Jew.

Later, probably because of the work of Paul, Jesus was given the title Messiah, or Christos.
There is a good argument for the idea that modern Christians should be called Paulians.

From Wiki: The name "Jesus" comes from an alternate spelling of the Latin (IÄ“sus) which in turn comes from the Greek name Iesous (Ιη�ƒÎ¿�…�‚). The name has also been translated into English as "Joshua".Further examination of the Septuagint finds that the Greek, in turn, is a transliteration of the Hebrew/Aramaic Yeshua (ישוע) (Yeshua â€� he will save) a contraction of Hebrew name Yehoshua (×™×�ושוע Yeho â€� Yahweh [is] shua` â€� deliverance/rescue, usually Romanized as Joshua). Scholars believe that one of these was likely the name that Jesus was known by during his lifetime by his peers

In Sanskrit he was known as īśa or Isha Which means supreme lord.

Jesus once reprimanded his childhood teacher for not recognizing the significance of the vibratory content in words. The fact that Scripture has a vibratory connection to greater depth in their source and intention, Jesus was named for his purpose and it (his name) reflected his life's intention or purpose of incarnation.
To the average layman Yeshua Ben Joseph was no more substantial than Bob or Sam.
To the Adepts and or the Magi of his time his name was significant to changing times, and as significant as the predicted changes in human consciousness predicted by the Aztecs, Mayans and Egyptians for the the not too distant future.

The implications derived from knowledge about the word Christ and Messiah, taken from wikipedia and other such publications of definition assumed to be correct always seem to stray from the actual message in the Bible.
Some people say one thing and others say something else. Jesus however never wavered from the theme of his Teachings in regard to the Christ Consciousness or Union of body and spirit as the freedom from illusion and highest state of human consciousness.
The bible is filled with the message of heaven within and the difference in being spiritually united as the "Son of God," and being in the world and of the world, as the "Son of Man." (born of Karma or unconscious [ignorant] choices, as opposed to conscious [fully enlightened] choice)
If you look within the scripture of Eastern Philosophies and practices it mentions the same Union of body and spirit Jesus spoke of and taught as he was fully aware and versed in Eastern traditions and sciences. It is in fact the Eastern traditions that paved the foundation of Western Teachings in Christianity as taught and lived by Jesus.

Those who would argue for a Paulian church are not different from those who would label themselves and their church according to the ideal definitions created from the surface of the mind, or the mind of the "Son of Man." (Body and mind brought forth into manifestation as a result of unconscious choices)[Flesh without awareness of spirit]

The Son of God or the Christ-ed man has no need for rules golden, or labels for they would never complete what is already complete within the form as it appears from the formless.
All disciplines derived from the teachings of Christ-ed men have been distorted by the ego which makes rules and commandments the ideal spiritual Union rather than recognizing them as "Tapas" (Sanskrit - literally the baptismal fire that burns the impurities of illusion from the soul) or, useful boundaries of the cognizant enlightened mind used to turn the senses inward toward the absolute.
Rather the unawakened mind will try and reign in the outer within the boundaries established by the diversity of free will as derived in belief and opinion of egoic illusion. The mind seeking to solve the problems of life at the same thought level in idealism in which all problems were first created. The mind trying to force itself into submission.

Heaven inside, beyond the limits, prescribed by the egoic senses, was the message of both the Christed man Jesus and the Buddha. The Buddha represented perfect knowledge, The Christ the reflection of body and mind living perfect knowledge, without boundaries perceived to be absolute in the relative experience.

Simply believing in spirit, knowing a set of rules derived as ideal, restraining yourself within ideals and knowing you have a choice, does not make you a Christ. Nor does it make you born again as a fully awakened individual with the awareness of spirit as the True Self and the experience of that True Self that is you in everyone and everything.
Nor does reading a book on brain surgery make you a brain surgeon.

But people with knowledge like to believe they are brain surgeons and Christed beings because they read books and have knowledge.

The anointing conscious awareness with the Spirit within the manifestation of God as Man, has been the theme of all enlightened Teachings.
For the ignorant Jews the prophesied "Messiah" meant the coming of a man or savior, who would right the wrongs perceived by individual belief and opinion, rather than the embodiment of God mind, freed from delusions of belief and personality able to lead others to the boundary-less infinite within themselves.
Someone who would change the outside world, rather than lead them to see the outside world as it really is from clear perception and the exaltation of God's mind.
People still believe such a person will someday come to change the outside and leave their controversial belief systems intact, in the "Second Coming."

The enlightened teachings have always maintained that the outside world is a reflection of what lives inside the son of man as belief and opinion, and it is the Christ consciousness or Union of spirit and the manifestation of spirit, that releases the illusions from the mind absorbed in egoic identification with the reflection of duality as real.
Spirit sees, senses, lives spirit, all that is reflected, is spirit.
Ego immersed awareness in ideals reflect thoughts and choices of a mind that identifies itself as subject and object. It sees ideals in and amongst things not so ideal. Creating the ideal as a rule called Golden with its castle walls being chipped away by those ideas not so ideal.

The choices one makes from identification as subject and object are as subject and object.
The choices one makes from spirit are as spirit and of spirit.

One is within boundaries and rules labeled golden or christian or pauline or theistic.

The other is without boundaries, limitations or labels and is anointed with the stick of Absolute knowledge or Christ-ed.
Some Greeks (very few) understood the meaning of the word Khristós, but not all, and it is more than likely the people who have studied the Greek translations of Scripture assume themselves the Greek made their own assumptions. One assumption laid upon another assumption creating the ideal rule for all to assume as Golden.