God, if He exists, cannot be omniscient, Proof Options

[Enki]

Therefore, the question above is answered in the affirmative, if we assume divinity involves omniscience: we can tell there is no divinity in the world because if there were, quantum mechanics would be very different than what we have found to be the case. QED.

Your statements rely on non-scientific argumentations Rick.
It is rather Sophism than anything else!

You absolutely excluded cybernetic approaches from your ruminations concerning omniscience of God, besides that you fully ignored EPR paradox related aspects of data
transfer from one part of the Universe to another.

Let me here advocate God on his behalf and protest against such approaches.

God does not play in Casino Royal Rick.

[Joesus]

Your statements rely on non-scientific argumentations Rick.

I think this next statement is rather non scientific

But there can be some sort of waves we never heard about (or something we have not even invented a Word to describe it), which can impart to any point of the universe any information about any quantum fluctuation and quantum state without violating the Unobservable limits within limits of Human understanding of the reality.

It is rather Sophism than anything else!

So having stated a scientific theory, you are suggesting that Rick is deliberately playing a deceptive card.
Would that put him on.......... "Team Antichrist"?

Let me here advocate God on his behalf and protest against such approaches.

You might take a number along with others who believe they are speaking for God, invested in Gods best interest as defensive counselor, but.....................
How about you admit you speak on behalf of your belief that God has put "himself" in a position, is unable to defend "himself," and... has created you for this immediate purpose.

God does not play in Casino Royal Rick.

God not only plays the game, God invented it.

[Enki]

I am talking with Rick, not with you Joesus. I absolutely do not want to discuss with you anything. I think I made that point quite clear. Is not it?

[Joesus]

I am talking with Rick, not with you Joesus. I absolutely do not want to discuss with you anything. I think I made that point quite clear. Is not it?

Then stop discussing anything with me, its as simple as that.

Most probably, if you have feelings about something it won't make it go away.

Are you also against any other who might comment on what you have said to Rick on this subject, or is it just me you have difficulty with?

Regardless, it doesn't matter what you think of me personally or whether you have a hissy fit about who posts in light of your presence. Life will continue to bring you what you what you need.
Unless you want to be a victim to God then I suggest the only recourse is to expand your self beyond your separation and judgment.

Or you can isolate yourself and anyone else who wants to isolate themselves with you in some private conversation.

By the way hows that private forum idea panning out? Lots of exclusive conversations?

[Enki]

By the way hows that private forum idea panning out? Lots of exclusive conversations?

Our exclusive cozy Pantheon of Deities enjoys nice tea parties during discourses about cabbages and kings. Without your holly presence we discuss great secrets of the Universe and cobweb global conspiracy against Monotheism.

[Joesus]

Holly presence? is that a Christmas-like presence?

[Enki]

You like to play with cats as I see Joesus.

[Joesus]

They're simple minded, get distracted easily and sometimes they're fun to play with.

[Enki]

They are wonderful, wise, nice and cute creatures.

[Joesus]

Well the wisdom part must be why they like me so much.

[sk1]

what's funny is that through our modern science we can't figure out how to cure Cancer, Aids, travel across the galaxy or to distant galaxies etc. but can somehow "prove" or "convince" ourselves/others that God does not exist. We are talking about God right.

[Lindsay]

Sk1. You comment

We are talking about God right.

What is your concept of 'God'? Keep in mind, I am just seeking to understand what you have in mind. I like to dialogue, not debate.

[Lindsay]

You like to play with cats as I see Joesus.

Speaking of cats. Enki have you heard about cats that look like Hitler?
http://humor.about.com/b/2006/06/14/hitler-cats.htm
Or like this?
http://www.catsthatlooklikehitler.com/cgi-bin/seigbest.pl
http://www.funnycatpix.com/_pics/white_ninja_cat.jpg

When I lived in Labrador, I once had a cat that looked like this:
http://www.greatdreams.com/Sylvester.JPG

We called him HOLY. However, he did not have a red nose, he had an interesting but not an angry face, and the white of his face spread down and across his chest and looked like a holy cross. Now you know where he got his name.

[sk1]

Sk1. You comment

We are talking about God right.

What is your concept of 'God'? Keep in mind, I am just seeking to understand what you have in mind. I like to dialogue, not debate.

Your right, it's fun to dialogue.

To me God is:
the trees that sway in the wind
the love between me and another
the connection between me and my dog
the connection between me and my plants
I believe God is the ultimate Love
Male, Female, and the perfect blend of the 2
With and Without form
Incomprehensible
the list can on forever
but i think you get the idea.


I feel that as human beings we can not and will not be able to understand all of God
We are not that limitless in our thinking and we never will be.
I don't think we have the capacity to do such a thing.
But to me that's not important, to try an understand how we all came to be or how the universe was created.
That knowledge will never be "discovered" through modern day science, only therories will exist but never a complete proof.
We just need to take care of each other and our earth and try to love ourselves and others as much as possible. That is tough to do but it's much more attainable than trying to figure out all the mysteries of the universe.

[Lindsay]

...Your right, it's fun to dialogue.

To me God is:
the trees that sway in the wind
the love between me and another...

... We just need to take care of each other and our earth and try to love ourselves and others as much as possible. That is tough to do but it's much more attainable than trying to figure out all the mysteries of the universe.

Sounds good to me. What you write fits in quite well with what I have in mind when I write and speak about GØD.

By the way, for Christmas my son and his family gave me Richard Dawkins' book, The GOD Delusion. For my 78th Birthday (January 14--the day before that of the late Martin Luther King's 79th) the family gave me Christopher Hitchens' book, god is not GREAT--How Religion Poisons Everything. Incidentally MLK graduated from Boston University, as a minister, in the spring of 1954. That fall, as a minister, I entered BU to do two years post graduate studies.

Interestingly, my son is married to a liberal-thinking Muslim. His wife is also a student of Sufism (Similar to what I call Pneumatology). He, his wife and children (18, 16, and 12) are all deep and rational thinkers.

WHAT GOD, BIBLE, THEOLOGY AND RELIGION ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?
==============================================================
Naturally, I have not read all of both books, yet. But I have read much of what the authors, Dawkins and Hitchins say about the God, the Bible, Theology and Religion in which they have no faith to realize something is wrong. What happened, I wonder? Were they so unlucky as to run into nothing but bad teachers--including the boring kind--and bad examples? Or did they simply make up their minds not to listen at all, or hear only what they wanted to hear?

I am happy to say: Ever since ince I reached the age of reason I have never really believed in the kind of "God", "Bible", "Theology" or the "religion" in which they say they were raised. I attended "their funeral" long ago. I graduated from all forms of weak and sick religion, including classic theism, long ago. My experience at high school and university set me on the pathway of discovery to a universal, inclusive and progressive kind of religion, and to what I now call theological unitheism--similar to panentheism (do a wiki on these words).

Correct me if I am wrong, but both Dawkins and Hitchens make no mention of , panentheism--GØD in and through all that is, not a separate and personal being. Hmmmm!!!! I wonder, why?

Along the way, I have been helped by the writing of many constructively critical and analytical writers, including scientists, who have written positively about the role of healthy religion in helping build healthy persons and communities.

I name just a few who have influenced me:
==================================
1. The late Rev. Reg Rowsell, the minister--the minister of my church when I was 12 to 17
2. My teachers at http://www.mta.ca and the Atlantic School Theology
http://astheology.ns.ca/
3. Boston University School of Theology
http://www.bu.edu/sth/about/index.html

THE WORK AND WRITINGS OF
1. Dr. Harry Emerson Fosdick, (American, minister, professor, healer) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Emerson_Fosdick
2. Dr. Leslie D. Weatherhead (a British minister and psychologist)
http://www.eden.co.uk/shop/doctor_of_souls...1976_30744.html
3. Professor Alfred North Whitehead (Process philosophy and theology, mathematician),
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/whitehead/
4. the Rev. Matthew Fox, (former Dominican priest , now an Episcopalian, writer, teacher
http://www.matthewfox.org/sys-tmpl/door/
5. Professor Marcus Borg, panentheist theologian
http://ww1.explorefaith.org/bio.borg.html
6. Dr. Victor Frankl, psychiatrist and deeply spiritual Jew
http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/frankl/frankl.html
7. Dr. Karl Menninger, psychiatrist, Christian, author of, Whatever Became of Sin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Menninger
He along with his father and brother founded a famous clinic, now in Houston
8. Canon the Rev. Joseph Wittkofski, suthor of the Pastoral Use of Hypnotic Technique
http://www.durbinhypnosis.com/hypnosis_and...YPNOSIS%201970:
9. Dr. Milton Erickson, psychiatrist and hypnotist
10. The Rev. E.L. Crump, electrical engineer, minister and hypnotist, concept therapist
http://www.durbinhypnosis.com/hypnosis_and...YPNOSIS%201959:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_H._Erickson
11. Dr. William S. Kroger, Clinical and Experimental Hypnosis, I have the book
http://www.amazon.com/Clinical-Experimenta...r/dp/0397500963
12. The late Dr. Scott Peck, holistic psychiatrist
http://www.mscottpeck.com/
13. Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, a visionary French Jesuit and scientist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Teilhard_de_Chardin
14. Professor William James, taught at Harvard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_James
================================================
I was pleased to see that, in his book, Dawkins does mention, all too briefly, the progressive ideas of Bishop John Shelby Spong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Shelby_Spong
JSS is a retired American Episcopalian Bishop. He also mentions
the retired (2002) Bishop, Richard Holloway, of Edinburgh.
http://www.westarinstitute.org/Fellows/Hol...y/holloway.html

In December 2005, my wife and I were present at the Markham (Ontario) Theatre--it was filled--when Bishop Spong help a group of us--in cooperation with The Toronto United Church Council--launch Pathways United Church http://www.pathwayschurch.ca. Along with about 25 others we attended the first service--held in a room at a golf club--the first Sunday in January, 2006.

JUNG and FREUD
==============
Dr. Carl Jung, in my opinion, was more of a pneumatologist than a psychologist/psychiatrist. In the early part of his career he was greatly influenced by his senior, Dr. Sigmund Freud, of Vienna. All their lives, Jung and Freud had a deep respect for one another. Freud even wanted Jung to succeed him as head of the Psychoanalytic Movement. However, Jung, with deep regret, refused. His interest in human spirituality and theology led him in a more theistic--I would say unitheistic--direction.

He makes his position clear in one of his great books is, Modern Man in Search of his Soul. In it he writes about the value of healthy religion and the need for doctors and clergy to work together to help build better lives and communities. Once, in an interview on a BBC TV, he was actually asked if he--the son of an evangelical Swiss minister--believed in God. He responded: "I do not believe, I know."

I like that; and I can vibrate with it. I think of GØD as including all that we already know, all that we don't know, and all that we can possible learn to know--physically, mentally and spiritually. In my opinion, heaven is not a fixed destination; but a joyful and eternal journey to any number of destinations we care to choose, along any number of pathways we care to take.

In his book, Dawkins goes into no detail about the work of Jung. He simply quotes his statement about "knowing" God.

With the above in mind, think of the following:

HUMAN DESTINY
==============
In my opinion, the eventual destination of every human being, which could take more than one incarnation, is to be a philosopher, a scientist, an artist, or even a combination of all three.

YOU ARE, IF YOU WILL, A PHILOSOPHER
=======================
A philosopher is anyone who is willing, that is, one who loves wisdom--the wise use of knowledge. Think of every child, curious about life, as a natural philosopher. Keep in mind that loving and willing are one and the same.

YOUR ARE YOU A SCIENTIST
========================
A scientist is anyone who is willing--that is, one who loves--to experiment and to explore new and better ways of getting things done. Every move and sound the child makes is an experiment. Think of every child as a natural scientist.

YOU ARE AN ARTIST
=================
Artists are people who are willing to take action and to make a practical application of what they know good, true and beautiful, what they have found out works. Artists seek to find goodness, order and design--GOD--in all things. Every child is a natural artist.

SEEK AND YOU WILL FIND YOUR DESTINY
===================================
This destiny is open, not just to the select few, but to anyone--at his or her own level, regardless of age, race, colour or creed. This destiny is open to all who choose to receive and to give faith, hope and love and who encourage others to join in as members of the family and larger community.

[trojan_libido]

God is simply everything, and a huge percentage of that is incomprehensible. Your right to say we will never know. Its impossible to say for sure without being there. Even our current theories on the start of the Universe are using current perceptions of data and geometry to understand the path matter and energy has taken, but how can we really know what the laws of physics look like when everything is at a single point of spacetime?

I've read the God Delusion, and he touches on several important things like 'cargo cults' and the mistreatment of people through religion. I wouldn't take Dawkins view that a child is mentally abused if the parents are implanting their own religious ideas on it, but I do agree all children should not be forced into religion. I think this simple act would create more belief and less retaliation, with our children being able to think for themselves more and adjust their beliefs as they grow.

What I don't understand is Dawkins use of the word Zeitgeist, which means 'spirit of the times'. Now using German language or not, I'd like Dawkins to explain his use of the word 'spirit' in a book about the rejection of the supernatural. Obviously its just a figure of speech, but so many things are, and yet the 'figure' fits the shadow perfectly. If you remove 'God' from the Universe, you have to fill that hole with something. Science simply cant explain the recursive nature of the 'Creator' - who created the creator - and who created that creator?

One major example of this rejection of parents religion is the lead singer of Guns and Roses, Axl Rose. His parents were christian zealots and refused to let him listen to Rock-and-Roll music. The rest is history!

I vibrate with it

I like your choice of words. Vibration and resonance seems to be the glue that holds everything together at the molecular level. Emotions seem to be tied into this resonance, so if you see a situation that reminds you of something happy or sad in your own life, that memory resonates within causing huge swelling of emotion. Do you think your family are trying to get you to stop believing in God Lindsay? I bought the God Delusion for myself and although I saw it as a brilliant argument for why organised religion is an abomination, it did not alter my own beliefs in the thing behind the ideas expressed in religion.

[sk1]

Lindsay

Thank you for the information.

I also like you saying, " I vibrate with it"

Music played a big part in my realization of God

When i really began to hear the music and the way it made me feel.

It kind of opened my "receptors" and I was able to feel these same vibrations in everything I came in contact with or thought. What i realized is that I can close these receptors to the vibrations at my own will. Not that i ever really want to, but no matter what these vibrations or connections are always there for me to ignore or realize.

It's comforting to know that no matter how much I might screw up or fail, the connection is always there.

[Lindsay]

Everybody: I have made quite a revision of my last post. If you have the time, check it out.

T_L, you ask:

Do you think your family are trying to get you to stop believing in God, Lindsay?

I presume you are JOE KING --the name of my oldest brother, and the late Joe King. (1906)

BTW, my children MUST be devout unitheists....OR ELSE!!!!! Out of the will!!!!!!

But seriously, my daughter--from the beginning--was a philosopher, scientist and artist. Now, on her floating house near Tofino, BC, she does all three. Thank GOD, GØD, G�D, G?D, God, G-d, gods, whatever, even Allah!!!!!!

sk1, My son, Turner (47), is a pro--all the woodwinds. Tomorrow evening, he will be performing at a SOLD-OUT concert--Markham Theatre-- We have tickets.

[Lindsay]

I THANK GØD for what the media calls "the poster boys of atheism".

And I am serious about this. I predict that this will lead to a lot of good dialogue about what it means to be fully human.

[Enki]

You like to play with cats as I see Joesus.

Speaking of cats. Enki have you heard about cats that look like Hitler?
http://humor.about.com/b/2006/06/14/hitler-cats.htm
Or like this?
http://www.catsthatlooklikehitler.com/cgi-bin/seigbest.pl
http://www.funnycatpix.com/_pics/white_ninja_cat.jpg

When I lived in Labrador, I once had a cat that looked like this:
http://www.greatdreams.com/Sylvester.JPG

We called him HOLY. However, he did not have a red nose, he had an interesting but not an angry face, and the white of his face spread down and across his chest and looked like a holy cross. Now you know where he got his name.

Quite funny indeed. Jumped to forum for few minutes, still quite busy to return. Hope you will like attached cat as well.

[Lindsay]

People who hold strong beliefs are usually called, dogmatic.
What do we call people who pussyfoot around? I call them, catmatic.

Hope you will like attached cat as well.

Yes. But from a distance. What on that cat's mind, lunch?

[Enki]

People who hold strong beliefs are usually called, dogmatic.
What do we call people who pussyfoot around? I call them, catmatic.

Hope you will like attached cat as well.

Yes. But from a distance. What on that cat's mind, lunch?

Ho ho ho, catmatic. Hellarious indeed.

The ways of the cat's mind are unknown for the human world and not reflected in the prophesies of all kind.
This is the case by the way!

And that will remain a secret up the point when the cat will make the great jump, just like the great wave coming out of the eternity.

You know it is a very old project: To Crack the Belt of the Lies.

I do not remember how things will develop, but one thing is certain: now one will be able to stop the great wave.

As I do not remember the project details I will watch the wave from the mountains.

[project-2501]

what's funny is that through our modern science we can't figure out how to cure Cancer, Aids, travel across the galaxy or to distant galaxies etc. but can somehow "prove" or "convince" ourselves/others that God does not exist. We are talking about God right.

LOOOOL that is highly amusing, I think god finds that very amusing as well.

[Rick]

Both Zeus and Zarathustra are falling off their chairs with laughter.

[Lindsay]

Rick, at what? Please go on and explain. Are you, now, a Zoroastrian? Or a Zeusian?

[Lindsay]

Fascinating stuff about the way science and faith are working together:
STARCOURSE.ORG. The following is just part of the dialogue. Your constructively critical comments welcomed.
=======================
http://www.starcourse.org/
Gives us information about the number of top notch scientists--for example, Francis Collins, who helped map the human genome. Early in his career, he was a missionary to Nigeria and sees no conflict between theology and science.
http://www.genome.gov/10001018
There is such a thing as A PNEUMATOLOGICAL--having to do with person/spirit--APPROACH TO TOTAL HEALTH
=========================================
http://www.personalizedmedicinecoalition.o...ip/overview.php
=====================================================================

Dr John Polkinghorne KBE FRS was head of the Particle Physics Group in the Mathematics Department at Cambridge University. Internationally respected throughout the physics community, he became an Anglican Priest and is now one of the world's leading writers and speakers on science and religion, as well as a leading authority on scientific and medical ethics. His official home-pages are here

Prof Simon Conway Morris FRS is Professor of Evolutionary Paleobiology at the University of Cambridge. His book The Crucible of Creation gives fascinating insights into the developing story of evolution by a real expert at the cutting edge of science, and debunks some of the misconceptions spread by popularisers like Richard Dawkins and Steven Gould. Some extracts from this book are here.

[Lindsay]

With sites like this:
http://www.personalizedmedicinecoalition.org/
It seems that more and more are beginning to get on the what I call the pneumatological (spiritual) band waggon. Thank GØD!

[Enki]

New horizons are opening. Atheism is an old heresy and is an old form of evil worshiping.

[Lindsay]

FROM http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum
==================================
One poster asked us to discuss the fundamentals of philosophy, science and religion.
I (LGKing) wrote: One of the fundamentals, as I see it, is the bringing together of science and religion. Thus I referred to the following:
============
ABOUT MICHAEL DOWD and his work on bringing science and faith together.
=========================================================
http://www.thegreatstory.org/who_we_are.html
==============================================
Praise for Michael's 2007 book from NOBEL LAUREATES

#1. "The universe took 13.7 billion years to produce this amazing book. I heartily recommend it."� JOHN MATHER, NASA CHIEF SCIENTIST, 2006 NOBEL PRIZE IN PHYSICS

#2. "The science vs. religion debate is over! Michael Dowd masterfully unites rationality and spirituality in a world view that celebrates the mysteries of existence and inspires each human being to achieve a higher purpose in life. A must read for all, including scientists." � CRAIG MELLO, 2006 Nobel PRIZE IN PHYSIOLOGY OR MEDICINE

#3. "Dowd has given us a bridge across one of the major chasms of our times: religion and evolution. His passion for both science and religion is contagious. Reading his book, one can see that the discourse itself has just evolved to a whole new level!" � REV. MARLIN LAVAHNAR, SENIOR MINISTER, ALL SOULS UNITARIAN CHURCH, TULSA

# 4. "If anyone can persuade a monotheist that the science of evolution � biological, geological, or cosmological � can enrich his or her faith, I'm betting on Michael Dowd." � THOMAS C. SCHELLING, 2005 NOBEL PRIZE IN ECONOMICS

#5. "At last, someone who understands that all of reality is sacred and science is our method of comprehending it." � LEE HARTWELL, 2001 NOBEL PRIZE IN PHYSIOLOGY OR MEDICINE

#6. "Honest students of God should welcome the revelations of science as insights, not fear them as threats. Here is a book in that spirit by an ardent believer, who takes evolution to heart, and celebrates it."� FRANK WILCZEK, 2004 NOBEL PRIZE IN PHYSICS
_________________________
Tue Jan 29 2008 09:28 PM

Re: Focusing on Understanding the Fundamentals

Ellis, who usually writes as an atheist wrote: Take out 'is sacred' and substitute 'exists' and it makes a lot of sense.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wed Jan 30 2008 03:15 PM I. RevLgking wrote back and said:

Ellis, you mean something like this: "At last, someone who understands that all of reality simply IS...and science is our method of comprehending it."

Ellis, for me, GOD is not a three-dimensional and personal being with any human-like form--like an idol. It is the term that I give to all the reality that IS... and experience, with my senses. I think of myself as a piece--that is, a son, or a daughter--of that reality, which I feel is a process, not an event.

[Lindsay]

One Mike Kremer wrote:

Revlgking

I have not heard of Michael Dowd before now.
He seems to have come up with a unique way of teaching his flock
a more realistic and truthful method of Religious teaching.

His book entitled "Thank G-d for Evolution" is an eyecatcher, both for the religious and for the scientist, I would think.
I for one will get a copy to read, since there has always been a conflict between science V religion, unfortunately.

Hopefully his book and teachings will more than overturn the present feelings about Christian Creationists teachings.
Teachings that really confuse modern school kids. Nowat least they can start to believe that the World is 14 Billion years old rather than the 6000 yearrs, taught by Creationists
I can see Michael Dowd doing more for unifying Religion and Science than any one else before him.
I for one wish him well.