No more sleep, through neuroscience Options

[Hudzon]

Here's an idea that I've got, and don't mind my wording being off as it's being posted after another all nighter.

We don't know why we need to sleep, but we generally agree that it's because of something that is going on within the brain when we do, and not going on within the brain when we don't.

So, what if we force these processes to occur while we're awake, for example by electronically stimulate the areas of the brain that are more active during sleep?

Would that produce any affect at all?

[maximus242]

Oh this question has been posed a number of times over the years. The reason why you cant go without sleep is because

A. Sleep is used to regenerate and heal your body
B. You need REM (random eye movement) sleep or else you die
C. Your sub-conscious uses the time your conscious mind is not awake to do a variety of maintenance tasks with your body. Sleeping makes you healthy. Which is why people sleep more if they are sick.

To make humans not require sleep requires a change in the entire structure of the mind and the body. Sleeping uses less resources and energy allowing the sub-conscious mind to divert those resources to keeping you healthy and happy.

[trojan_libido]

Sleep deprivation causes lack of focus ie fuzzy head, auditory and visual hallucinations, and eventually major effects like delerium and blindness. Be careful.

[maximus242]

Going without sleep for too long actually results in death. I forget the world record for going without sleep but its reasonably long.

[Hudzon]

To make humans not require sleep requires a change in the entire structure of the mind and the body.

Which is the exact intention of this post, and as I assumed, this board.

Maximus, your reply is vague at best nor are you giving exact figures to back up your claims;

Please specify what parts of the body are "regenerating" and "healing" and what the two terms even mean.

Or why we need REM, what exactly it does that makes it important and why will we die when we lack it?

Or what are the maintenance tasks that are going on while we're unconscious.

I'm sorry, but you misunderstand the intention of my post. I didn't ask "why sleep is important". I asked "how do we replicate the processes that make sleep important while we're awake".

There's a difference.

Going without sleep for too long actually results in death. I forget the world record for going without sleep but its reasonably long.

11 days for a human.
As far as I'm informed, rats die within two weeks after being artificially prevented from getting REM. No human death has ever been recorded as a direct result of lack of sleep.

[trojan_libido]

Without knowing the real reason for sleep, then replicating the benefits of it whilst awake would be impossible. Lets say that the dreamstate is a biological function, either to empty the mind or work through personal problems symbolically. If we can force this to happen whilst awake, surely that would be extremely dangerous for the person involved. Dreams leaking into everyday consciousness = accidental death as you try to fly from a high building. The body paralyses itself to avoid this occurence, so i think its a safe assumption that the dream state is a dangerous state to be in whilst awake.

If you could override this paralysis AND cause the dream state during waking hours, then you would have an excellent place to start advanced dream research. However I think a waking dream state is contradictory, your brain seems to meander through threads of thought whenever there is no external stimuli. Its almost as if the dreamstate is a screensaver for your brain while your sleeping

[maximus242]

To make humans not require sleep requires a change in the entire structure of the mind and the body.

Which is the exact intention of this post, and as I assumed, this board.

Maximus, your reply is vague at best nor are you giving exact figures to back up your claims;

Please specify what parts of the body are "regenerating" and "healing" and what the two terms even mean.

Or why we need REM, what exactly it does that makes it important and why will we die when we lack it?

Or what are the maintenance tasks that are going on while we're unconscious.

I'm sorry, but you misunderstand the intention of my post. I didn't ask "why sleep is important". I asked "how do we replicate the processes that make sleep important while we're awake".

There's a difference.

Going without sleep for too long actually results in death. I forget the world record for going without sleep but its reasonably long.

11 days for a human.
As far as I'm informed, rats die within two weeks after being artificially prevented from getting REM. No human death has ever been recorded as a direct result of lack of sleep.

My post may have been a little vague given that we have had lengthy discussions about it before and I was half asleep when I answered your question.

I am not making up some voodoo witch doctor pseudo theory about sleep, your body regenerates when your sleeping. What I mean your body goes about cellular regeneration.

Sleep also relieves stress on the body, your bones are carrying a great deal of weight, when you are sleeping this gives your bones a chance to expand again. Your bones expand and contract throughout the day, when they are in a state of constant contraction, this causes arthritis.

Sleep is also used for neurological processing. Much of the free time the sub-conscious has while sleeping is used to process and analyze information. In fact many great inventors including Leonardo Da Vinci were record taking naps after spending a great deal of time working on a problem, only to find the solution upon awakening from sleep.
The processing power of the sub-conscious mind dwarfs the conscious mind. The conscious mind exists for awareness and decision making, like a general leading an army, the sub-conscious is like the army.

I am a bit groggy today or else I might try to remember where I read those REM sleep studies, the results were very fascinating. You have to understand that I read thousands of different scientific studies over the years and remembering where i've read each and every one of them is not likely. I am like a giant storehouse of information, sometimes I even forget I read about something until someone asks me a question related to it.

I perfectly understood what you were asking, my response is that its impractical and in general, not a good idea to try to end sleep.

Its not just neurologically that we need sleep, the body needs time to relax. Did you know stress is the biggest cause of illness? When the mind is stressed this causes cells to enter into a fight or flight mode - where they are expecting some sort of attack on the body. This causes essential living functions only while the rest of bodies resources are pumped to the arms and legs. Normally the body would use these resources for cellular regeneration and warding off disease. Not to say your immune system stops working, only that when stressed, the way your body works changes.

When you are asleep, your body does not need to pump so much blood to the arms and legs, allowing it to move oxygen and any other resources to other areas of the body. The specific place it might send it to is dependent on the needs of the body at the time of sleep. If you were to try to stay awake for a very long time, its likely that the sub-conscious mind would just cause you to black out.

We have evolved to using sleep for a variety of reasons. Its like the Egyptians who thought the brain was a useless part of the body so they disposed of it. Sleep IS essential to us and I don't think we should be trying to end sleep. The people who want more time awake are the ones who use the time they are awake ineffectively. I suggest you read the book, The 4 Hour Work Week.

[Enki]

I have read somewhere that Leonardo was sleeping 15 minutes each 2 hours in attempt to move his mental resources from Subconsciousness to Consciousness. I am not sure weather that info is right or not but looks like the sleeping mode is needed not only for us, just like Shabbat is needed to Mr. God to rest (when they do not work=sleep, then He rests).

REM is the most interesting thing studied not so well, yet.

BTW have you watched the Invasion movie with Daniel Craig starring, a funny idea about the Invasion from other worlds during the REM sleep, is not it? I have not seen it yet, but I am planing.

And if to speak scientifically then I agree with Max:

A. Sleep is used to regenerate and heal your body
B. You need REM (random eye movement) sleep or else you die
C. Your sub-conscious uses the time your conscious mind is not awake to do a variety of maintenance tasks with your body. Sleeping makes you healthy. Which is why people sleep more if they are sick.

[zhenka11230]

Or if we go by the other theory - Preservation theory.
The idea that sleep evolved to keep us tucked away for the time that we would not be able to do anything anyways(the dark).

There are people who only sleep 1-2 hours a day (not insomniacs) and feel fine. More then that there are people who are like 80-90 years old who never slept more then an hour a two a night and feel just like anybody else. The fact is we do not need 8 hours of sleep. Perhaps we need the REM sleep and some rest but not 8 hours of it. The 8 hours has simply evolved to tuck us away from boredom and danger for the useless time.

[trojan_libido]

...and feel just like anybody else

Can you prove this? It seems that the closer people get to the end of life, the less sleep they need or maybe want...

Science makes me laugh on this topic. First they say 8 hours, then 4 is enough, then 7, then 6, then... fill in a number between 2 and 10 at your leisure. Fact is since we don't fully understand it, we are unable to say how long we need.

If you try and go less than 8 hours a night for a few days, you'll be tired and unable to concentrate fully. This maybe just because your used to a longer sleep cycle, but it seems to indicate we do have a minimum requirement.

[Flex]

...and feel just like anybody else

Can you prove this? It seems that the closer people get to the end of life, the less sleep they need or maybe want...

Science makes me laugh on this topic. First they say 8 hours, then 4 is enough, then 7, then 6, then... fill in a number between 2 and 10 at your leisure. Fact is since we don't fully understand it, we are unable to say how long we need.

If you try and go less than 8 hours a night for a few days, you'll be tired and unable to concentrate fully. This maybe just because your used to a longer sleep cycle, but it seems to indicate we do have a minimum requirement.

I notice my most productive sleep pattern is about 4 hours at night with a 2 hour nap mid-day. I maintain an almost dream like state throughout the day, while at the same time being fully aware and productive (yet not tired).

[code buttons]

I wonder what different creatures we'd be, had we been born (hypothetically speaking) to a two-sun planet, where night-time and darkness wouldn't exist. I dare to say that all that we are, what makes us (including our potential factor), are all intrinsically connected with every state of mind we are required to have in order to lead a biologically normal life.

[trojan_libido]

I believe your right code buttons, the psychology we have is down to the environment we have inhabited. We're not even sure if life can exist in a two-sun environment.

[code buttons]

We're not even sure if life can exist in a two-sun environment.

I think you might have misinterpreted me slightly. Scientifically speaking it is actually impossible for any kind of life as we know it to exist in a two-sun planet (assuming they even exist). But my hypothetical question had more to do with your first response:

I believe your right code buttons, the psychology we have is down to the environment we have inhabited.

[trojan_libido]

I didnt know it was impossible, can you point me to the research/evidence that proves this? I just assumed that since we've not been anywhere near any earth like planets, then we wouldn't be able to say whether a two sun planet can sustain life.

Maybe a two sun planet won't be spherical and Pratchetts Discworld may exist!

[code buttons]

I spoke too soon. I don't have the proof. I thought I read somewhere awhile back that the logistics where not there.

[rhymer]

Also without any proof, I would not be in the least surprised that it may be found eventually that two functions performed during sleep are 'defragmentation of memories and information and Indexing of same' akin to those processes within computers (those who choose to perform these operations regularly will be aware of the performance advantages).

[Nodas]

I think the human world record without sleep is about 7-8 days.
And that's about 170-190 consecutive hours approximately.

In my opinion sleep is needed
- for information in our brain to be reorganised and revised
- to produce new cells
- have a rest and reenergise the body (ATP production etc.)

[trojan_libido]

This show was very intriguing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shattered

[Orbz]

This show was very intriguing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shattered

"Though research has gone into the effects of sleep deprivation nobody knew exactly what to expect. Hallucinations and odd behaviour were evident quite quickly in some contestants."
"Chris believed himself to be the Prime Minister of Australia and also thought he was on the set for the popular Australian soap Neighbours"

Hahaha.

I read a book a while ago which suggested that some symptoms of schizophrenia could be because of sleep type neurochemistry/circuitry being activated during waking states, for whatever reason.

[Enki]

I tried for several times to apply so called Leonardo's technique of sleeping only 15 minutes per 2 hours and understood that his technique is workable only coupled with special diet, which one should keep if chooses to follow his lifestyle. I think the sleeping time is directly related with diet.

[Molitor]

11 days for a human.
As far as I'm informed, rats die within two weeks after being artificially prevented from getting REM. No human death has ever been recorded as a direct result of lack of sleep.

There is Familial Fatal Insomina. (Search PubMed for article 17406188, as I can't post URLs yet):

CONCLUSION: Methods to induce sleep may extend and enhance life during the disease course, although they do not prevent death.

Not exactly normal sleep deprivation, but interesting nonetheless.


Back to the OP: Experiencing the needed sleep functions while we're awake might be interesting, and if you could control it, it might even be beneficial, since we could "sleep" when our brain really needs it, and not try to force the brain into arbitrary schedules.

My main problem with the whole proposition is "why?" Is this really improving the quality of life, or just the perceived length of it? I, personally, enjoy sleeping! (And do you really want to talk after sex? ) It's a little along the lines of putting all our meals into a single pill. Just think of all the hours you'd save if you could swallow a single pill instead of grocery shopping, preparing meals, waiting in restaurants, eating, etc., etc. Probably save as much time as if sleep were eliminated, but other than forcing a rewrite of The Sopranos finale, I'm not so sure it could be called progress.

As for me, if I don't get enough sleep, I get canker sores. If I start getting a canker sore, and I give myself more time to sleep that night, it will be much less painful the next day and gone the next. I used to get them by the mouthful, and absolutely nothing would help. I finally figured out the sleep link, and have been more or less free of them for over a decade.

[Supernova]

Forget about the brain, the body needs some rest, and through sleeping you regenerate what was lost and get energy for a new day, without that you will be like a machine running non stop, its life expenctency is usually shorter.

[dutch84]

Here's an idea that I've got, and don't mind my wording being off as it's being posted after another all nighter.

We don't know why we need to sleep, but we generally agree that it's because of something that is going on within the brain when we do, and not going on within the brain when we don't.

So, what if we force these processes to occur while we're awake, for example by electronically stimulate the areas of the brain that are more active during sleep?

Would that produce any affect at all?

I think the necessity for sleep is much more than electrical.

I think it also chemical and physiolocal. I really, think it has a lot to do with bloodflow to the brain, but that is just my own little idea...

and i don't think electricity is going to help that.

[dutch84]

To make humans not require sleep requires a change in the entire structure of the mind and the body.

Which is the exact intention of this post, and as I assumed, this board.

Maximus, your reply is vague at best nor are you giving exact figures to back up your claims;

Please specify what parts of the body are "regenerating" and "healing" and what the two terms even mean.

Or why we need REM, what exactly it does that makes it important and why will we die when we lack it?

Or what are the maintenance tasks that are going on while we're unconscious.

I'm sorry, but you misunderstand the intention of my post. I didn't ask "why sleep is important". I asked "how do we replicate the processes that make sleep important while we're awake".

There's a difference.

Going without sleep for too long actually results in death. I forget the world record for going without sleep but its reasonably long.

11 days for a human.
As far as I'm informed, rats die within two weeks after being artificially prevented from getting REM. No human death has ever been recorded as a direct result of lack of sleep.

Well, if sleep is dependent on Cerebral Blood flow (as I've been predicting) then Rapid Eye Movement (in my opinion) would be a by-product of the result of said blood flow. The result being (neural activity taking place during sleep that does not normal occur while we are awake.

Is it a fact that EVERYONE experiences REM sleep? Any cases reported of people who do not? ...just curious, because a case of someone who does not experience REM during sleep my give us some insight into what causes REM sleep in the first place.

[dutch84]

Without knowing the real reason for sleep, then replicating the benefits of it whilst awake would be impossible. Lets say that the dreamstate is a biological function, either to empty the mind or work through personal problems symbolically. If we can force this to happen whilst awake, surely that would be extremely dangerous for the person involved. Dreams leaking into everyday consciousness = accidental death as you try to fly from a high building. The body paralyses itself to avoid this occurence, so i think its a safe assumption that the dream state is a dangerous state to be in whilst awake.

If you could override this paralysis AND cause the dream state during waking hours, then you would have an excellent place to start advanced dream research. However I think a waking dream state is contradictory, your brain seems to meander through threads of thought whenever there is no external stimuli. Its almost as if the dreamstate is a screensaver for your brain while your sleeping

Very good point, trojan...

And, I'd like to add, that if sleeping and dreaming are all about blood flow to the brain, then another good place to start would be supplying the blood's nutrients to the brain via a pill of some sort.

[dutch84]

My post may have been a little vague given that we have had lengthy discussions about it before and I was half asleep when I answered your question.

I am not making up some voodoo witch doctor pseudo theory about sleep, your body regenerates when your sleeping. What I mean your body goes about cellular regeneration.

Sleep also relieves stress on the body, your bones are carrying a great deal of weight, when you are sleeping this gives your bones a chance to expand again. Your bones expand and contract throughout the day, when they are in a state of constant contraction, this causes arthritis.

Sleep is also used for neurological processing. Much of the free time the sub-conscious has while sleeping is used to process and analyze information. In fact many great inventors including Leonardo Da Vinci were record taking naps after spending a great deal of time working on a problem, only to find the solution upon awakening from sleep.
The processing power of the sub-conscious mind dwarfs the conscious mind. The conscious mind exists for awareness and decision making, like a general leading an army, the sub-conscious is like the army.

I am a bit groggy today or else I might try to remember where I read those REM sleep studies, the results were very fascinating. You have to understand that I read thousands of different scientific studies over the years and remembering where i've read each and every one of them is not likely. I am like a giant storehouse of information, sometimes I even forget I read about something until someone asks me a question related to it.

I perfectly understood what you were asking, my response is that its impractical and in general, not a good idea to try to end sleep.

Its not just neurologically that we need sleep, the body needs time to relax. Did you know stress is the biggest cause of illness? When the mind is stressed this causes cells to enter into a fight or flight mode - where they are expecting some sort of attack on the body. This causes essential living functions only while the rest of bodies resources are pumped to the arms and legs. Normally the body would use these resources for cellular regeneration and warding off disease. Not to say your immune system stops working, only that when stressed, the way your body works changes.

When you are asleep, your body does not need to pump so much blood to the arms and legs, allowing it to move oxygen and any other resources to other areas of the body. The specific place it might send it to is dependent on the needs of the body at the time of sleep. If you were to try to stay awake for a very long time, its likely that the sub-conscious mind would just cause you to black out.

We have evolved to using sleep for a variety of reasons. Its like the Egyptians who thought the brain was a useless part of the body so they disposed of it. Sleep IS essential to us and I don't think we should be trying to end sleep. The people who want more time awake are the ones who use the time they are awake ineffectively. I suggest you read the book, The 4 Hour Work Week.
[/quote]

Everything you've said has reaffirmed my belief that sleep's function is a time for accelerated Cerebral Blood Flow.

[dutch84]

I have read somewhere that Leonardo was sleeping 15 minutes each 2 hours in attempt to move his mental resources from Subconsciousness to Consciousness. I am not sure weather that info is right or not but looks like the sleeping mode is needed not only for us, just like Shabbat is needed to Mr. God to rest (when they do not work=sleep, then He rests).

REM is the most interesting thing studied not so well, yet.

BTW have you watched the Invasion movie with Daniel Craig starring, a funny idea about the Invasion from other worlds during the REM sleep, is not it? I have not seen it yet, but I am planing.

And if to speak scientifically then I agree with Max:

A. Sleep is used to regenerate and heal your body
B. You need REM (random eye movement) sleep or else you die
C. Your sub-conscious uses the time your conscious mind is not awake to do a variety of maintenance tasks with your body. Sleeping makes you healthy. Which is why people sleep more if they are sick.

I do not think it is the movement of the eyes themselves that keeps us alive, but the process occuring that causes these movements. I believe that there is increased cerebral blood flow during sleep, which causes rapid eye movement.

Without it, the Central Nervous System will not get the nurtrients it needs and certain vital systems would shut down and we die. That's my theory.

[dutch84]

Or if we go by the other theory - Preservation theory.
The idea that sleep evolved to keep us tucked away for the time that we would not be able to do anything anyways(the dark).

There are people who only sleep 1-2 hours a day (not insomniacs) and feel fine. More then that there are people who are like 80-90 years old who never slept more then an hour a two a night and feel just like anybody else. The fact is we do not need 8 hours of sleep. Perhaps we need the REM sleep and some rest but not 8 hours of it. The 8 hours has simply evolved to tuck us away from boredom and danger for the useless time.

8 hours of sleep per night is just another example of how "standards" impede progress...but I won't get into that.

[dutch84]

...and feel just like anybody else

Can you prove this? It seems that the closer people get to the end of life, the less sleep they need or maybe want...

Science makes me laugh on this topic. First they say 8 hours, then 4 is enough, then 7, then 6, then... fill in a number between 2 and 10 at your leisure. Fact is since we don't fully understand it, we are unable to say how long we need.

If you try and go less than 8 hours a night for a few days, you'll be tired and unable to concentrate fully. This maybe just because your used to a longer sleep cycle, but it seems to indicate we do have a minimum requirement.

I don't know if there is a minimum requirement, but we do know that Sleep is a fact of life and a necessity. People get differing hours of sleep depending on different factors.

Maybe old people don't need so much sleep, because their brains are so specialized and their neurons are as plastic and/or don't need the jumpstart that us younger folks do...I dunno.