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> On the Mental Representation of the Objective World, the stubborn illusion of the external world
Joesus
post Oct 31, 2007, 09:05 AM
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QUOTE

When one transcends duality, duality does not manifest, as unity-consciousness is transcendental of manifestations of duality.

If you accept this:
God consciousness is all-knowing. This kind of knowledge includes knowledge of lower layers of consciousness - ego consciousness. When one perceives reality through God consciousness, there is everything.

That is duality. God manifests itself in duality, good and evil, God is both. layers of dimensional experience this is God too. Duality is the reflection of God. Duality is one with God.
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forgottenpresence
post Oct 31, 2007, 11:54 AM
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This is duality, because I am thinking it and projecting it. Duality is a projection of mind. When there is no projecting there is no mind, therefore no duality. Although the dual mind is known through awareness or perception through God-consciousness. When in a state of unity-consciousness, duality exists in the state that has been transcended - mind.

God is all, good an evil, up and down, right and left, thought or no-thought, mind or no-mind. But we can see through God's eye or we can see through our own conditioning. This conditioning is a manifestation of God, but it is no direct awareness of God-consciousness and being.
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Rick
post Oct 31, 2007, 02:29 PM
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Regarding causality:

1. I hold a rubber band in my hands. I stretch the rubber band; tension in the band increases (stretching the band causes the tension to increase).

2. I hold a rubber band in my hands. I increase the tension in the rubber band; the band gets longer (tensioning the band causes it to stretch).

Both are valid descriptions of cause-effect, yet both describe the same act. "Causality" can be a limited way of viewing things in some circumstances.
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Wafa..
post Oct 31, 2007, 02:32 PM
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I dunno if this might be considered out of this discussion stream -which is very interesting indeed- but I think not..

Can I define something without referral to a higher and abstract level than it.

Can I, define mind and consciousness by using the same mind and consciousness??? Or I have to access a higher level??
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lucid_dream
post Oct 31, 2007, 04:35 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Oct 31, 2007, 03:29 PM) *

Regarding causality:

1. I hold a rubber band in my hands. I stretch the rubber band; tension in the band increases (stretching the band causes the tension to increase).

2. I hold a rubber band in my hands. I increase the tension in the rubber band; the band gets longer (tensioning the band causes it to stretch).

Both are valid descriptions of cause-effect, yet both describe the same act. "Causality" can be a limited way of viewing things in some circumstances.

if it's mathematical description of a process, and not just playing with semantics, then both of your descriptions above will amount to the same thing


QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Oct 31, 2007, 12:54 PM) *
This is duality, because I am thinking it and projecting it. Duality is a projection of mind. When there is no projecting there is no mind, therefore no duality. Although the dual mind is known through awareness or perception through God-consciousness. When in a state of unity-consciousness, duality exists in the state that has been transcended - mind.

Mind projects things but duality is a state of mind, not a projection of mind. When in a state of unity-consciousness, duality does not exist. Unity consciousness is not a transcendence of dual consciousness, any more so than ice is a transcendence of liquid water. I think you're confusing states of mind with the projections of mind.

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forgottenpresence
post Oct 31, 2007, 06:13 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Oct 31, 2007, 05:35 PM) *
Mind projects things but duality is a state of mind, not a projection of mind. When in a state of unity-consciousness, duality does not exist. Unity consciousness is not a transcendence of dual consciousness, any more so than ice is a transcendence of liquid water. I think you're confusing states of mind with the projections of mind.


When in a dual state of mind, all the mind does is project thought-forms. If it weren't projecting these thought-forms then there would be no duality as there would be no thought - no this and that, just here and now. No-thought is no-mind is unity-consciousness.

This understanding opens inconceivable possibilities for Medicine, Psychiatry, Psychology, Education and the rest of all human activities. If we see the Universe in Unitary Perception time becomes irrelevant. The future is now. The past is right now. The future is a projection of the past in a perception that we have to call “fragmentary.” In Unitary Perception there is only the now.

---

The mind is forever full with its own projection (words and thought, words and
thought, desire and fear, fear and desire) and so it can never be in true contact with anything or anybody.
Only a completely silent mind can have a relationship with someone. A good dialogue is impossible without a silent mind. We stuff our minds with ideologies, beliefs, information, rejections and predilections and in such a way we isolate ourselves. Men built cities not to be lonely and now they are lonely in the cities. Or else they gather in gangs to sell drugs and kill each other. We are so full of words, words, words, that nothing else can enter our mind.
We want to be somebody but we are not even aware of our body in space. This awareness or incarnation can happen only in Unitary Perception. This incarnation in Unitary Perception is the beginning of love but thought cannot recognize love. As long as the word “love” emerges to the mind, love ends.
The word “love” is not the reality of love.
And only this reality beyond words, call it Unitary Perception, or love or Christ . . . only that can solve the problems of mankind. But we want to solve problems created by words and thought (like war and hunger and overpopulation) with more words and thought. When the brain stops creating words and thought, only then it can be in complete touch with creation. That contact with creation is the beginning of a New Life without conflict.
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lucid_dream
post Oct 31, 2007, 08:10 PM
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QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Oct 31, 2007, 07:13 PM) *

When in a dual state of mind, all the mind does is project thought-forms. If it weren't projecting these thought-forms then there would be no duality as there would be no thought - no this and that, just here and now. No-thought is no-mind is unity-consciousness.

you define unity consciousness in terms of negation (i.e., as lack of thought), which means that for you, it's an impoverished form of typical dual consciousness, whereas for me, it is an expanded form of consciousness where there is no distinction between me and other, and where defining it in terms of lack of thought completely misses the mark. Discussions on consciousness always leave me somewhat disappointed because people invariably discuss it solely in terms of duality versus non-duality, and this is but a tiny glimpse into the myriad varieties of consciousness that are accessible to us. Consciousness is much more than dual versus non-dual.

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forgottenpresence
post Oct 31, 2007, 09:09 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Oct 31, 2007, 09:10 PM) *

you define unity consciousness in terms of negation (i.e., as lack of thought), which means that for you, it's an impoverished form of typical dual consciousness, whereas for me, it is an expanded form of consciousness where there is no distinction between me and other, and where defining it in terms of lack of thought completely misses the mark.


everything we are saying here is of dual consciousness. there is a lack of thought when one is more conscious of his self. awareness is the flame that burns the process of thought, we are basically coming from different angles. you don't know what consciousness means to me, i don't even know what it means to me. but when it is experienced there is a different form of meaning that is transcendental of conceptualization, which can only be understood when in the reality of. to observe from a less conscious perspective is to dream - maya, that which we are doing now. sure i can realize that i am projecting, everybody should.

QUOTE
whereas for me, it is an expanded form of consciousness where there is no distinction between me and other, and where defining it in terms of lack of thought completely misses the mark.


i've had many obe's and know what it is like to observe through consciousness. any thought about consciousness misses the mark, it must be experienced. anything is possible in the astral realm, ime.

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Joesus
post Oct 31, 2007, 09:15 PM
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When the mind is still there is the experience of no thought, but the nature of consciousness is not complete stillness. The Universe exists because of the nature of consciousness, which is activity.
Union is between creator and creation.
The creator is both still and active, and in reflection of that experience is both of the active part of consciousness and the still part of consciousness. Duality must exist to display the reflection but consciousness does not have to be hypnotized by creation, as so often happens in the waking state.

There really is no reality to no mind in stillness, just no recognizable thought for a period of expression.
Stillness is a thought too.
Universal mind is the essence of all of creation and it is in itself still, in expression and experience just before the experience of it both in activity and stillness.

When one expresses the experience of the stillness they are not still, and so it creates a sort of conundrum to express stillness, especially if the stillness is expressing itself through the experience.

In Union, the experience of Natures stillness, is greatest in activity.

QUOTE
anything is possible in the astral realm, ime.

The ego's explanation for not achieving in the relative; duality.
Exalted experiences through altered states of consciousness do not create a stable conscious experience.

Don't worry no one is going to deny your experience, but it would be an advantage to quit identifying with them, and defending them.
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forgottenpresence
post Nov 01, 2007, 11:00 AM
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QUOTE
Duality must exist to display the reflection


Why must there be a reflection? Can one see without there being a reflection?

The unmanifest, that level of wholeness, the silent witness has no reflection, ime.


QUOTE
Don't worry no one is going to deny your experience, but it would be an advantage to quit identifying with them, and defending them.


Don't worry, we are all identified with something here. The advantage is to realize it...
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forgottenpresence
post Nov 01, 2007, 05:03 PM
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I guess what I am trying to say is any reflection outside of ourself seems of the ego.

When Joesus says this - "Duality must exist to display the reflection" - "displaying the reflection" sounds like a mirror outside of oneself - the ego. We are the mirror, we can reflect on ourself and realize we are nothing/everything/consciousness, but when we are reflected that does not sound like the experience of unity consciousness to me. Maybe I am misunderstanding..
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Joesus
post Nov 01, 2007, 06:48 PM
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QUOTE

When Joesus says this - "Duality must exist to display the reflection" - "displaying the reflection" sounds like a mirror outside of oneself - the ego. We are the mirror, we can reflect on ourself and realize we are nothing/everything/consciousness, but when we are reflected that does not sound like the experience of unity consciousness to me.

No it wouldn't sound like unity, if unity is a belief.
The ego can become very enlightened and cling to the identity of duality where it says I am that while standing outside of what it perceives.

Stillness or silence of the absolute are the reflection of consciousness and you are both consciousness and the absolute. The reflection is still you. You in any aspect of conscious experience are individual, and One, The Absolute. You are all, and none of it at all.

Jn 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Jn 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Jn 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.


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forgottenpresence
post Nov 03, 2007, 01:01 AM
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Guess I just don't know what I'm talking about.

Anyways, wise words people, wise words.
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Joesus
post Nov 03, 2007, 08:01 AM
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QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Nov 03, 2007, 09:01 AM) *

Guess I just don't know what I'm talking about.



Would that mean you are now reconsidering your grouping of shroomic experiences as higher states of consciousness/OBE's/NDE's/egoless?
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forgottenpresence
post Nov 05, 2007, 02:50 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 03, 2007, 08:01 AM) *

Would that mean you are now reconsidering your grouping of shroomic experiences as higher states of consciousness/OBE's/NDE's/egoless?


When I see my body from an outside perspective, that to me is an OBE. Are you trying to tell me otherwise?
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Joesus
post Nov 05, 2007, 08:21 AM
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QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Nov 05, 2007, 10:50 AM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 03, 2007, 08:01 AM) *

Would that mean you are now reconsidering your grouping of shroomic experiences as higher states of consciousness/OBE's/NDE's/egoless?


When I see my body from an outside perspective, that to me is an OBE. Are you trying to tell me otherwise?

Are you still entertaining the idea that a shroomic out of body experience is a higher state of consciousness/ego death/NDE?
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forgottenpresence
post Nov 05, 2007, 06:16 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 05, 2007, 08:21 AM) *

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Nov 05, 2007, 10:50 AM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 03, 2007, 08:01 AM) *

Would that mean you are now reconsidering your grouping of shroomic experiences as higher states of consciousness/OBE's/NDE's/egoless?


When I see my body from an outside perspective, that to me is an OBE. Are you trying to tell me otherwise?

Are you still entertaining the idea that a shroomic out of body experience is a higher state of consciousness/ego death/NDE?


Would you say a non-shroom induced OBE a higher state of consciousness?
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Joesus
post Nov 05, 2007, 07:37 PM
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QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Nov 06, 2007, 02:16 AM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 05, 2007, 08:21 AM) *

QUOTE(forgottenpresence @ Nov 05, 2007, 10:50 AM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 03, 2007, 08:01 AM) *

Would that mean you are now reconsidering your grouping of shroomic experiences as higher states of consciousness/OBE's/NDE's/egoless?


When I see my body from an outside perspective, that to me is an OBE. Are you trying to tell me otherwise?

Are you still entertaining the idea that a shroomic out of body experience is a higher state of consciousness/ego death/NDE?


Would you say a non-shroom induced OBE a higher state of consciousness?

No, would you?
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forgottenpresence
post Nov 05, 2007, 09:50 PM
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Well it obviously is a different state of consciousness being experienced, "higher" may not be the right word to use here, or any word for that matter. But it fits fine for me, maybe "expanded" would be more accurate. When experiencing an OBE (whether drug induced or not), I definitely feel more conscious and alive. As well as with astral projection.
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Joesus
post Nov 05, 2007, 10:51 PM
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Altered state of consciousness are enticing. They offer an escape from the mundane, and a glimmer of hope to those who believe there is more and can't seem to find a stable experience.
With a little help from the outside one can rationalize what might lay dormant and unused on the inside.
For one to achieve a higher state of consciousness it must be permanent, not a drive by glimpse of the neighborhood.
There is usually a subjective as well as an objective experience of the mind and body in their functioning.
For instance the permanence of aligning the left and right hemispheres as demonstrated by Maslow in the peak experience.
One can achieve the affect with a meditative discipline that is in effect residual and present in the known states of consciousness, waking dreaming and sleeping.
Shrooms do not create the same measure of permanent stillness of mind and healing of the body. Maybe a long lasting memory and a nice random ride in some distant neighborhood of exalted experiences, but not higher states of consciousness.
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forgottenpresence
post Nov 06, 2007, 08:56 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 05, 2007, 10:51 PM) *

For one to achieve a higher state of consciousness it must be permanent, not a drive by glimpse of the neighborhood.


Gotta keep up on that daily meditation!


QUOTE
Maybe a long lasting memory and a nice random ride in some distant neighborhood of exalted experiences, but not higher states of consciousness.


Is that your opinion or ultimate truth?
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Joesus
post Nov 06, 2007, 09:09 PM
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QUOTE

Is that your opinion or ultimate truth?
Is a higher state of consciousness an opinion?
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Rick
post Nov 07, 2007, 08:39 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 06, 2007, 09:09 PM) *

QUOTE

Is that your opinion or ultimate truth?
Is a higher state of consciousness an opinion?

Perhaps, or maybe it's more like an attitude.
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Joesus
post Nov 07, 2007, 08:51 AM
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Cop an attitude/Cop a state of consciousness.... mellow.gif happy.gif ohmy.gif wink.gif tongue.gif biggrin.gif laugh.gif cool.gif rolleyes.gif dry.gif
Are we talking measurable activity of the body and mind, such as in waking, sleeping and dreaming, and whatever is beyond those familiar states?
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forgottenpresence
post Nov 07, 2007, 10:25 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 07, 2007, 08:51 AM) *

Cop an attitude/Cop a state of consciousness.... mellow.gif happy.gif ohmy.gif wink.gif tongue.gif biggrin.gif laugh.gif cool.gif rolleyes.gif dry.gif
Are we talking measurable activity of the body and mind, such as in waking, sleeping and dreaming, and whatever is beyond those familiar states?


Are you saying one cannot become more conscious?
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Joesus
post Nov 07, 2007, 06:11 PM
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huh.gif
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forgottenpresence
post Nov 09, 2007, 06:14 AM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Nov 06, 2007, 09:09 PM) *

QUOTE

Is that your opinion or ultimate truth?
Is a higher state of consciousness an opinion?


Is it an opinion when it is being experienced?
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Joesus
post Nov 09, 2007, 08:22 AM
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Is it your experience if you assimilate yourself into the definitions and explanation of others rather than speaking directly from your own experience?


There's a story of a cowboy in a bar. A woman sits down next to him and says, "Hey, I bet you're a cowboy."
The man says, "Yep, I ride horses, rope and brand cows, eat dust and sleep outside."
The woman then replies,"I'm a lesbian, I ride and sleep with as many women as I can, eat as much pussy as I can, and I'm here now looking for another beautiful woman to sleep with."

About half an hour later a man walks into the bar and sits next to the cowboy and says,"Hey, I bet you're a cowboy."
The cowboy replies,"Nope, I'm a lesbian..."

You attach your experience to whatever sounds good even if you don't know what you're talking about.
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forgottenpresence
post Nov 09, 2007, 05:38 PM
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Giving an example of another's perspective does not have to mean I am attaching myself and speaking through it. sleep.gif
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Joesus
post Nov 09, 2007, 08:54 PM
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No? I 'm still waiting for you to speak of your experience without backing it up with a link,...and hearing something you identify with, resonate from any level of conscious understanding, rather than projection and belief.
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