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Orbz
post Oct 20, 2007, 11:26 PM
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If you were to drain somebody constantly of blood for an indefinite period of time, what rate (mL/h) would be the threshold between survival and dying?

How would sub-threshold rates affect the person's health and psychological state?

How much time and resources are required to make the 5 L of blood in the healthy human?
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maximus242
post Oct 21, 2007, 12:19 AM
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If you were to drain someone of blood for an indefinite period of time they would die.

Your best resource as to the amount of blood which can be removed from the body would be blood donation organizations and clinics. Preferably a government organization.

They should be able to provide you with the general information. Increased blood loss would lead to neurological shutdown and the body would enter into a state of essential functions only. The body, unable to make the entire system function, would enter into either a coma state or a unconscious state in which only the most vital bodily functions would be performed.

After this state, if the body was unable to recover - one would presumably die.

Survival and Dieing are not just determined on a systemic level but also on a mental one. Persons with a strong will to live on will last longer than those ready to die. There is no exact formula, at a certain point the body will be unable to function on x amount of blood, but that varies from person to person - their mental and physical state, their stature, etc.
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Lindsay
post Oct 21, 2007, 02:44 PM
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Max writes
QUOTE
Survival and Dieing (you mean dying) are not just determined on a systemic level but also on a mental one. Persons with a strong will to live on (and) will last longer than those ready to die.
One more example of what I like to call the pneumatological factor, not just the psychological, or mental, one.

In addition to the above, consider the Karen Quinlan story http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Ann_Quinlan

QUOTE
Karen Ann Quinlan was born on March 29, 1954 in Scranton, Pennsylvania, to a young unmarried mother of Irish American ancestry. A few weeks later, she was adopted by Joseph and Julia Quinlan, devout Roman Catholics who lived in Landing, New Jersey. She was soon joined by two (unadopted) siblings: Mary Ellen (born 1956) and John (born 1957). [1]

Karen Ann and her family lived in Landing for the next two decades uneventfully.

According to some friends, Quinlan lived a wild, reckless lifestyle and used drugs including heroin, cocaine and methadone. In the eyes of the religion in which she was raised, she lived a life filled with sin. Her parents, good Catholics, hated to admit that she was a drug user.
Early life
Karen Ann Quinlan was born on March 29, 1954 in Scranton, Pennsylvania, to a young unmarried mother of Irish American ancestry. A few weeks later, she was adopted by Joseph and Julia Quinlan, devout Roman Catholics who lived in Landing, New Jersey. She was soon joined by two (unadopted) siblings: Mary Ellen (born 1956) and John (born 1957). [1]

Karen Ann and her family--Irish Catholics--lived in Landing for the next two decades uneventfully.

According to some friends, Quinlan lived a wild, reckless lifestyle and used drugs including heroin, cocaine and methadone. However, the evidence regarding her drug use is contradictory and her parents deny she was a drug user.


In brief: For whatever reasons, she did overdose on alcohol and drugs, went into death coma, was put on a respirator, and survived.
Later, after a legal battle, when she was taken off the respirator, Quinlan surprised everyone by continuing to breathe unaided, and was fed by artificial nutrition for nine more years.
Death
What happened next was contrary to the laws of science. She should have died, but she didn't: She lived in a persistent vegetative state until her death from pneumonia in 1985.
==========
My opinion: KQ, despite the logic of science, survived so long as the result of her sheer willpower, even though unconscious. Because of the guilt trip layed on her by her religion, KQ was afraid to die because she feared that she would go to hell.
Bottom line: No matter what happens phycically or mentally, always take into account the pneumatological factor, or the power of the human spirit.
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Orbz
post Oct 21, 2007, 07:06 PM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Oct 21, 2007, 04:19 PM) *

If you were to drain someone of blood for an indefinite period of time they would die.

But surely there's a rate at which you could keep somebody alive, say maybe 1 mL per 24 hours? Less? More?
There must be people with minor internal haemhorrages not even noticing, except maybe feeling a bit tired.

From Wikipedia
QUOTE

Plasma volumes will return to normal in around 24 hours, while red blood cells are replaced by bone marrow into the circulatory system within about 3-5 weeks, and lost iron replaced over 6-8 weeks. This recovery process can be accelerated by eating foods high in complex carbohydrates, iron, and other trace minerals. Due to the timeframe required for iron replacement, donors are eligible to donate whole blood approximately eight to twelve weeks after the previous donation, the exact period varying by country. In the USA, Whole Blood donations can be taken every 56 days, the waiting period for the "double red" apheresis donors is 112 days.[11][12] Donors can donate far more frequently if taking iron supplements but this is generally only done under medical supervision.
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maximus242
post Oct 21, 2007, 08:42 PM
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Well to figure this out, take the amount of blood removed in one blood donation session and divide it by 56, that should give you the amount one could drain per day.

I just have to ask, what is this for?
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Orbz
post Oct 22, 2007, 12:47 AM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Oct 22, 2007, 12:42 PM) *

I just have to ask, what is this for?

It started because somebody I know has been excreting small quantities of blood regularly for a few weeks (its been sorted out or is being sorted out by doctors). They noticed that they weren't feeling quite right and getting tired because of it. This then led to the curious question 'how much blood could one person lose before they were at risk of dying'.

So mostly curiosity sparked by an actual event.
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Orbz
post Oct 22, 2007, 12:51 AM
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QUOTE(Lindsay @ Oct 22, 2007, 06:44 AM) *

Death
What happened next was contrary to the laws of science. She should have died, but she didn't: She lived in a persistent vegetative state until her death from pneumonia in 1985.

My opinion: KQ, despite the logic of science, survived so long as the result of her sheer willpower, even though unconscious. Because of the guilt trip layed on her by her religion, KQ was afraid to die because she feared that she would go to hell.
Bottom line: No matter what happens phycically or mentally, always take into account the pneumatological factor, or the power of the human spirit.

Why was it contrary to physical reality?
You don't think willpower/motivation has a biological basis?
How does an unconscious person have willpower?
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trojan_libido
post Oct 22, 2007, 01:25 AM
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The tiredness will be anemia due to loss of blood. I'm not sure how quickly the iron in the blood is replaced, but i guess its at a slower rate than the blood can be regenerated.
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post Oct 22, 2007, 01:41 AM
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QUOTE(Orbz @ Oct 20, 2007, 11:26 PM) *

If you were to drain somebody constantly of blood for an indefinite period of time, what rate (mL/h) would be the threshold between survival and dying?

How would sub-threshold rates affect the person's health and psychological state?

How much time and resources are required to make the 5 L of blood in the healthy human?


Extremely interesting configuration of the questions!
The first one is the most impressive.
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maximus242
post Oct 22, 2007, 02:28 AM
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On the subject of how a persons willpower can effect their longevity, I can provide some information for that.

For starters, this is a simplified way as to how your mind and body work.

Consciousness

Sub-Conscious

Nervous System

Individual Nerve to Cell Communication

On the cellular basis, your mind is capable of influencing individual cells. What I mean by that is your nervous system has nerve cells connecting to individual cells in your body. Most of the time cells work in groups, but they are capable of working independently.

Now to get to my point. Your conscious mind influences your sub-conscious. Your sub-conscious is a extremely powerful organism which handles an amazing amount of information your conscious mind could only hope to fathom. Anyways, your sub-conscious also decides things like, whether or not to ward off disease, should your cells go into a fight or flight state? Should the body store fat or use energy on regeneration.

So lets say you are having your blood drained - as is in the question asked by Orbz. Well, your sub-conscious would decide what rate to regenerate your blood cells, how much energy to expend on it, etc. It would also decide how much blood would be used, if your body would enter into a state in which it used the minimum amount of blood required.

I will give you a real life example of how the sub-conscious mind was used to heal something as to which is supposed to be incurable.

There was a cocky young doctor, fresh out of graduate school. A young boy came to him with a case of skin warts. The doctor, happened to have been using hypnosis as a form of some of his treatments. So this cocky young medical grad figured, warts will be no problem to get rid of with hypnosis...

And work it did. The boys entire skin was clear of any warts, however... there was something this doctor did not know. When the boy went to see his regular doctor, this young doctor was called up only to realize he had not cured a case of the warts, but an incurable skin disease which had stumped medical science for years!

The thing is, your body was built to heal itself. It did not evolve with the intention of having doctors take care of your body. Your body and mind were built to be 100% self sufficient.

To further my point, did you know that 90% of all sickness is mental? More people show up at the doctors office on Mondays than any other day. Coincidence? I think not. People sub-consciously make themselves sick to avoid unwanted situations. Cold Medicine does not actually increase the speed at which one recovers from a cold, believe it or not, the recovery rate is the same whether or not you take cold medicine.

Stress is the biggest reason for sickness of all, I wont get into it now as it takes to long to explain how stress affects you on the cellular level, but if you want to live longer - cut out your stress'.

Anyways, im done my rant for now, fingers are getting sore... hope you enjoyed it ;D
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Orbz
post Oct 22, 2007, 05:56 AM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Oct 22, 2007, 06:28 PM) *

To further my point, did you know that 90% of all sickness is mental? More people show up at the doctors office on Mondays than any other day. Coincidence? I think not. People sub-consciously make themselves sick to avoid unwanted situations.

I got onto this gravy train when I was at school. If I didn't want to go to school the next day I would think all through the night about getting sick.
QUOTE

Cold Medicine does not actually increase the speed at which one recovers from a cold, believe it or not, the recovery rate is the same whether or not you take cold medicine.

But stimulants are so much fun....
QUOTE

Anyways, im done my rant for now, fingers are getting sore... hope you enjoyed it ;D

Thanks.

What do you think is the most effective way of adjusting your subconscious?
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Lindsay
post Oct 22, 2007, 10:12 AM
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Orbz asks
QUOTE
Why was it contrary to physical reality?
You don't think willpower/motivation has a biological basis?
How does an unconscious person have willpower?


Max answers, above.

Thanks Max: You saved me a lot of writing. I like to think that soma, psyche and pneuma (the ego aware of itself, the spirit, where we ask such questions as, why?) are not separate components of human nature, but very much integrated with, and complementary to, one another.

Neglect of the significant role of the pneuma is, IMO, at the root of most human, physical, mental and spiritual suffering, pain and tragedy. See 1 Thessalonians 5:23.
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maximus242
post Oct 22, 2007, 10:21 AM
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Well communicating with your sub-conscious and understanding how your sub-conscious receives information is very important. It's not like your conscious mind where you can say "do this" and suddenly it happens.

Your sub-conscious makes use of all five senses. So what images you see in your mind and what you day dream of, can have a significant impact on your sub-conscious. If you say have a sickness and everyday you see yourself as healthy, then your sub-conscious is going to work to fulfill this goal. Also, emphasis is placed on repeat patterns. Just as your memory is more likely to store information because it continues to see it over and over again. So too is your sub-conscious more likely to do something if it see's the same goal over and over again.

When you say I cant do this to yourself, your sub-conscious will believe you. If you say it enough times, your sub-conscious will actually try very hard to make sure you cannot do something.

This is a perfect real life example of how what you say can affect your mind and body. A family was injured in a car accident, the driver went through a pole and lost his right arm. Upon awakening 4 weeks later from his hospital bed, he found his daughter, to be a normal healthy girl. The thing is, his daughter had a disease to which there was no cure (I have forgotten what the disease was).

Now the father used to always say "Id give my right arm just to see my little girl healthy". After repeating this phrase for several years, when he actually lost his right arm, his daughter became healthy over the 4 weeks he was in his hospital bed. This is also where new agers claim there is "The Secret". In reality, if your sub-conscious mind see's the same goal over and over again, it's going to try to achieve that goal using all the resources, knowledge and skill it has.

I should also point out that belief is a significant factor in whether or not sub-conscious communication works. When religious people believe very strongly that their god will come to heal them, they can actually become healed. Of course some of the forum members will disagree with this explanation, but from a scientific standpoint we can think of it as the Placebo Effect.

So aside from envisioning and repeating your goals, you can also use hypnosis if you like. Self-Hypnosis is the most effective way to achieve results immediately. I do not recommend subliminal programming or using subliminal software because most of it does not work and was invalidated in studies long ago.

Hypnosis is essentially changing the brainwaves to an alpha state, where its easier for the mind to learn and the sub-conscious can be communicated with directly.

You have to remember the main purpose of the conscious mind is to protect the sub-conscious from unwanted outside influence. Its your job to decide what the sub-conscious should or should not do. Also I should point out, if you try repeating things like "I am a millionaire" thats not going to work because your conscious mind will reject that idea and not allow it to enter your sub-conscious mind. Visualization is much more effective than repeating phrases by the way.
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Orbz
post Oct 22, 2007, 07:13 PM
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QUOTE(Lindsay @ Oct 23, 2007, 02:12 AM) *

Orbz asks
QUOTE
Why was it contrary to physical reality?
You don't think willpower/motivation has a biological basis?
How does an unconscious person have willpower?


Max answers, above.

Ok, I can understand how an unconscious person can have 'willpower'.

But, what about the first 2 questions:
How is surviving in a persistent vegetative state contrary to science?
Do you think willpower/motivation cannot be explained by biological constructs?

With the last question (so you can tailor your answer if you think it will help to do so), my background is in motivations towards and abstaining from addictive drugs.

QUOTE

Neglect of the significant role of the pneuma is, IMO, at the root of most human, physical, mental and spiritual suffering, pain and tragedy. See 1 Thessalonians 5:23.


Interesting, could you expand a little?
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Lindsay
post Oct 22, 2007, 08:47 PM
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QUOTE
name='Orbz' date='Oct 22, 2007, 07:13 PM' post='84255']
... How is surviving in a persistent vegetative state contrary to science?

My point is that obviously medical science was wrong. She did not need to be plugged in in order to breathe. However, she did need to be fed food and water. This prompts me to ask a very important question: What motivated her family to keep on feeding her?

In answer, here I respond to your request that I expand on what I said above:

Right or wrong, the Quinlan family was motivated by what I call this the pneuma factor. Faith, hope and love, IMO, are factors which originate in the very human pneuma, not in the animal-like soma and psyche.

You ask
QUOTE
Do you think willpower/motivation cannot be explained by biological constructs?
I am not sure what you mean.

BTW, I am very much aware of and accept the importance and practical value of all the natural sciences. I use reading glasses to help my sight. A hearing aid in my right ear help me very much, especially in hearing good conversation, and music. Because I love this planet and all on it, I am also very careful about what I eat and drink, and I am a strong advocate taking ecology seriously.

However, in addition to the somatological factors, I find that understanding some psychology and philosophy helps me gain insights about myself and others. To this I add pneumatology (The Jews call it cabbalism; Muslims, suffism), the study of the human spirit, and actually the mother of psychology. It motivates and inspires me to be aware of the power of faith, hope and love (agape)--not to be confused with sentimentality.

You say that your "background is in motivations towards and abstaining from addictive drugs". Whether we realize it or not, when we act lovingly we use what I call the pneuma. I presume you believe it is a good idea to be loving, respecting, just and fair with others and that it is normal to expect that others return the favours. If so, you are no longers a grasping creature dominated by base instincts or simply and animal responding mechanistically to environmental stimuli; you a pneumatological and human being. Like Abraham Maslow, one of the originators of humanistic psychology (Third Force Psychology), pointed out
http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/maslow.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Maslow
It is possible for human beings to be ones in whom love is inborn and one who find self-realization in being fully human and in contributing to the good of society.
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maximus242
post Oct 23, 2007, 12:28 AM
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QUOTE(Lindsay @ Oct 22, 2007, 10:47 PM) *

QUOTE
name='Orbz' date='Oct 22, 2007, 07:13 PM' post='84255']
... How is surviving in a persistent vegetative state contrary to science?

My point is that obviously medical science was wrong. She did not need to be plugged in in order to breathe. However, she did need to be fed food and water. This prompts me to ask a very important question: What motivated her family to keep on feeding her?

In answer, here I respond to your request that I expand on what I said above:

Right or wrong, the Quinlan family was motivated by what I call this the pneuma factor. Faith, hope and love, IMO, are factors which originate in the very human pneuma, not in the animal-like soma and psyche.


Uhh? In ten words or less.. What.. is.. pneuma.

How are doctors to know who is going to breath on their own and who is going to simply die? You have provided one case in which a patient continued to breath - but lets not forget the many more cases where they stop breathing.
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Lindsay
post Oct 23, 2007, 11:16 AM
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Max asks,
QUOTE
In ten words or less.. What.. is.. pneuma?
World Book Dictionary defines it as, spirit or soul. It also defines psyche as the human soul or spirit. The mind. However, I believe that pneuma is not exactly the same as psyche.

For example, the Greek New Testament uses 'pneuma', over and over again and in a special way, when referring to the human spirit. It also uses 'Holy Spirit' as the same as God. In John, Jesus even says to the Samaritan woman: "God is Spirit (Pneuma)". IMO, pneuma is more than just psyche, as in animal mind. The human spirit is like a mind that is being aware of self. If you were just an animal psyche, or mind, you would not be asking me any questions.

THE FOLLOWING LINKS ARE QUITE INTERESTING
http://www.pneuma.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXmLtbetuF0...www.pneuma.com/
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Lindsay
post Oct 23, 2007, 12:00 PM
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Max, I know that you are interested in the art of hypnotism, as have I been, going back to student days in the 40's and 50's.

However, because of the hocus pocus surrounding hypnotism, I like to call it pneumatism. Instead of hypnotherapy, I call the process pneumatherapy, which, over the years, I have used thousands of times--as recently as last week, to help a heavy smoker quit.

Keep in mind that Dr. James Braid, the one who coined the term 'hypnosis' in 1843, based it on the Greek for sleep. Because he came to understand that the trance state is not the same as sleep, he later tried to change it to 'monoideism'--the ability to keep one's mind focussed on one idea.

Interestingly, when he first saw it demonstrated, in Manchester, England, he thought it was all a fraud. But what he saw demonstrated convinced to him that it wasn't. As a surgeon, he also felt that it could be most valuable in dealing with the problem of pain. The demonstrator, the French count, count de la Fontaine, called it 'mesmerism', after the Austrian doctor, Franz Antoine Mesmer, the first to introduce it to Paris. Mesmer called it 'animal magnetism'.
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Lindsay
post Oct 23, 2007, 12:43 PM
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LOOKING BACK
For things about hypnosis and self-hypnosis--the only real kind there is--written awhile ago, check out:

http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5669
Here is a good place to start:
http://www.danielolson.com/hypnosis/hypnosis_history.html
Notice the connection between the art of hypnosis and the art of religion--perhaps the oldest human art.
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post Jul 16, 2010, 11:04 PM
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Decreased intravenous glucose specific activity by a constant series of glucose labeled with C14 of 13 and 19 people without diabetes diabetics was measured over periods of 3-6 hours. In diabetic human activity specifies a sharp drop of about 3 hours, then generally declined gradually after 3 hours. Select the curves obtained for a maximum of 3 hours, replacement rates in blood glucose around 120 mg / kg / h, range 84-153 mg / kg / hour. High and fluctuating blood glucose levels of diabetics has estimated the replacement rate a bit uncertain, but despite the wider spread of values, the average is 109 mg / kg / h, not significantly different from non-diabetic subjects.
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post Jul 17, 2010, 04:45 PM
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http://manuelsweb.com/blood_loss.htm
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post Jul 17, 2010, 04:52 PM
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QUOTE(Lindsay @ Oct 21, 2007, 11:44 PM) *

Max writes
QUOTE
Survival and Dieing (you mean dying) are not just determined on a systemic level but also on a mental one. Persons with a strong will to live on (and) will last longer than those ready to die.
One more example of what I like to call the pneumatological factor, not just the psychological, or mental, one.

In addition to the above, consider the Karen Quinlan story http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Ann_Quinlan

QUOTE
Karen Ann Quinlan was born on March 29, 1954 in Scranton, Pennsylvania, to a young unmarried mother of Irish American ancestry. A few weeks later, she was adopted by Joseph and Julia Quinlan, devout Roman Catholics who lived in Landing, New Jersey. She was soon joined by two (unadopted) siblings: Mary Ellen (born 1956) and John (born 1957). [1]

Karen Ann and her family lived in Landing for the next two decades uneventfully.

According to some friends, Quinlan lived a wild, reckless lifestyle and used drugs including heroin, cocaine and methadone. In the eyes of the religion in which she was raised, she lived a life filled with sin. Her parents, good Catholics, hated to admit that she was a drug user.
Early life
Karen Ann Quinlan was born on March 29, 1954 in Scranton, Pennsylvania, to a young unmarried mother of Irish American ancestry. A few weeks later, she was adopted by Joseph and Julia Quinlan, devout Roman Catholics who lived in Landing, New Jersey. She was soon joined by two (unadopted) siblings: Mary Ellen (born 1956) and John (born 1957). [1]

Karen Ann and her family--Irish Catholics--lived in Landing for the next two decades uneventfully.

According to some friends, Quinlan lived a wild, reckless lifestyle and used drugs including heroin, cocaine and methadone. However, the evidence regarding her drug use is contradictory and her parents deny she was a drug user.


In brief: For whatever reasons, she did overdose on alcohol and drugs, went into death coma, was put on a respirator, and survived.
Later, after a legal battle, when she was taken off the respirator, Quinlan surprised everyone by continuing to breathe unaided, and was fed by artificial nutrition for nine more years.
Death
What happened next was contrary to the laws of science. She should have died, but she didn't: She lived in a persistent vegetative state until her death from pneumonia in 1985.
==========
My opinion: KQ, despite the logic of science, survived so long as the result of her sheer willpower, even though unconscious. Because of the guilt trip layed on her by her religion, KQ was afraid to die because she feared that she would go to hell.
Bottom line: No matter what happens phycically or mentally, always take into account the pneumatological factor, or the power of the human spirit.
What cobblers! This is all explainable through biochemical and physiological mechanisms. Though I think the PVS means there is no requirement to discuss it further anyhow as there is no 'power of the human spirit' in being a vegetable!
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