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> Letter to a Christian Nation - by Sam Harris, read this book
Joesus
post Feb 26, 2007, 07:47 PM
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QUOTE
all just IS…NOW

An intellectual approach to define the sense or senseless experience of some thing that is?
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Joesus
post Feb 26, 2007, 08:34 PM
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what are you using to express your self Joe?

What is using me as the expression of Joe? What is the still stable presence holding the expression in the now?

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How can any expression occur without intellect…

It occurs regardless of the intellect. The intellect does not always perceive expression.
Which is why the intellect does not always understand itself without thought.

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how can consciousness be without form

How can a dream hold form? How can there not be a single stable source from which everything emerges, a one truth, a reality of a one truth?

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how can silence be understood…without sound?

When the sound of intellect is surrendered to the silence and there is only stillness, understanding is united with being.
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maximus242
post Feb 26, 2007, 10:56 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 26, 2007, 07:26 PM) *

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When we let go of our own perception to better understand someone elses, we gain understanding and insight.
We might gain some insight to anothers perception and beliefs but not necessarily the nature of our lives and reality if comparisons are made on a level that is still inadequately approaching Truth as nothing more than a changing belief or an opinion.
QUOTE
If one just sticks to how they view the world and cares nothing of learning from others, they will aquire much knowlege but have no understanding of it.

If one learns from others from the foundation of how they view the world according to their previous mental construct and habit of observation, any comparison is subject to the ability to comprehend according to belief and experience. Making knowledge available is not a guarantee that it is assimilated and understood.

No one is obliged or necessarily inspired to change their way of thinking by observing others or their point of view. They are more likely to compare themselves to another to justify their lives accordingly, possibly integrating what is meaningful according to already established value systems and patterns of identity.

The topic of discussion is critical of dogma, not necessarily an openness to join one who lives by it to learn from it and experience what another thinks and feels while believing in it.

The fear that one might have made a mistake in perception is not something many are willing to admit. If one was to indeed find their perception was incomplete they would most likely doubt any modified perception if there is no authority to base truth on other than personal opinion.
Personal opinions grouped together to strengthen the will and sense of self worth is the same as creating a religion. Something that doesn't stand in its own merit is bound to change.

Truth never changes, if it does, it isn't truth, it's only a thought.

The human spirit is capable of standing clear in and amongst the descending chaos that comes from surrendering ones insight to the crowds in a democratic process of authority if it continues to produce violence and selfishness.

Everytime a great sage inspires us with the presence of Truth all lesser perceptions of reality are easily dropped and the mind opens to receive through innocense and love.
A true sage carries a sword that cuts through ignorance like a hot knife thru butter, but there is no guarantee that God in its infinite light can awaken anyone who will be stubborn for a lesser path than unconditional love and selflessness. Free will allows all ideas of choice to remain without restriction in their own natural conditions.
The ego will never ask for higher guidance or help. Only the heart will see thru ignorance and the heart is often clouded by perceptions of reality that define freedom and love by the material possesions and attachments to objects of change.

Truth is much more than individual perception, It is something that can be percieved equally by any individual and remains stable regardless of the changing mind and beliefs.

Those that experience less than that do not know Truth, they only know their changing thoughts and beliefs.



Here is the problem with that theory, what remains constant for one is a variable for another. What is truth to one is false to someone else. There are no truths which are accepted universally, if there were, then we would all have the same perception. Believe it or not, there are still people who think the world is flat.
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lucid_dream
post Feb 26, 2007, 11:10 PM
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universal truth? Cogito ergo sum
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maximus242
post Feb 26, 2007, 11:54 PM
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^^ Nicely put
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Rick
post Feb 27, 2007, 09:45 AM
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QUOTE(Casey @ Feb 26, 2007, 05:39 PM) *
... As I see it, disadvantaged individuals have found a way to compensate for the difficulties of life and the associated, unexplained phenomena. It seems to be a sort of social evolution. Can we ethically take that away from them? ...

Yes. Whenever we tell somebody the truth, we are doing a good, not a harm.
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Joesus
post Feb 27, 2007, 09:46 AM
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QUOTE
Here is the problem with that theory, what remains constant for one is a variable for another. What is truth to one is false to someone else. There are no truths which are accepted universally, if there were, then we would all have the same perception. Believe it or not, there are still people who think the world is flat.

But the world is not flat is it? Misperception of reality doesn't alter reality it just means perception of it is clouded by programs that alter it. Programs created by false belief create illusions like hypnotic suggestions.
The hypnotized individual can wake up.

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Nothing is using you Joe, you are simply being it.

It is more than Joe, the appearance of Joe, the sound of Joe and the life of Joe.

QUOTE
Stillness is not still, nor does it move…there is nothing for it to hold

Stillness is still and it is also active, the perception of it in activity is that the stillness lives within the activity. The perception of stillness is that activity is on the surface of the stillness.

QUOTE
Stillness is pure intelligence that just IS.

Isness is a word that describes pure potential, time, all time within potential that exists eternally.

QUOTE
There is nothing but intellect Joe… in constant flux. The intellect is expression. Intellect and thought are synonymous…thought and form are synonymous…nothing is truly differentiated, it only appears to be so…

This statement doesn't change what I've said.
QUOTE
The dream is form, form is consciousness, nothing is held, it just IS. There is no differentiation or separation just unlimited potential of expression. There is nothing to emerge from or recede into…

Potential is a word describing unmanifest Form which is a thing, it is experience, it is time, it is definition, it is held in place to percieve, it has beginnings and endings. That which makes it possible to perceive in form creates intellect in form and is itself formless.

QUOTE
Sound and silence are synonymous, when this is understood, so to is being.


Semantics.
We both say the same thing in different words and in different context.

Isness is truth. truth exists always and regardless of appearance it still is. You just replaced the word isness for my word truth

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Rick
post Feb 27, 2007, 09:47 AM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Feb 26, 2007, 11:10 PM) *

universal truth? Cogito ergo sum

From the experience of thinking, one can only logically conclude that thinking exists. You will need to define "I" before concluding there is anything else there.
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lucid_dream
post Feb 27, 2007, 10:45 AM
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"I" may be defined as a form of self-reference. Thus, "cogito ergo sum" is a self-referential statement attributing "thinking" and "being" to the thing making the statement. Of course, you can always call into question the premise of the statement (i.e., that the thing making it is actually "thinking").
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maximus242
post Feb 27, 2007, 11:20 AM
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But Joesus, Reality IS Perception. Your entire reality is comprised of your perception, you know of nothing more than that which you percieve.

Lucid, if I think, then does the thinking define me? If so then how can I think when the act of thinking is the creation of me?

Therefore, the only way to think is to already have thought because it is the thought which creates the I, which is what thinks.

So, what creates and defines the 'I' if not thought? Because I cannot exist without definition, so how can I think for the first time in order to bring myself into existance?

Since I do not have a definition of 'I' until I have thought, what is it that creates 'I' which allows it to think, and give a definition of itself?

Prehaps this is the God principle? Something whose thoughts have brought other thoughts into creation and allowed the I to define itself? Of course the question is then posed what created the God whose thoughts define itself who created thoughts of I which allowed the I to define itself.

It seems we have a paradox. Prehaps things never exist or dont exist but rather they only change?
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Rick
post Feb 27, 2007, 02:04 PM
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Suppose I am not thinking. Does "cogito ergo sum" then imply that I have ceased to exist? No. Proof of my existence seems to depend on my thinking, but if I stop thinking, then I may still unprovably exist.

I think that the concept of "I" is a communicational convenience, much as time is a computational convenience; they are not things that have a property of existence (as do material things). Of course, I am distinguishing the concept of I from the human being that uses the word. Human beings obviously exist.
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Joesus
post Feb 27, 2007, 06:42 PM
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QUOTE
But Joesus, Reality IS Perception. Your entire reality is comprised of your perception, you know of nothing more than that which you percieve.

Reality exceeds perception if the Known reality or ego is limited to misunderstanding.

Would you say you can never know more than you perceive in this moment? If there is more to know and perceive then reality is greater than your awareness of it.
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Joesus
post Feb 27, 2007, 07:45 PM
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Uh…no, I did not
'fraid so....
QUOTE
…ISNESS is beyond form and intellect…it is pure potentiality…form and intellect define/create the perception/potential of a truth which is derived from judgment.

I wasn't using Truth in the context of judgment. I was using Truth in the context of non changing stability, potential/stillness, beyond the forms created by judgment.

QUOTE
I think that the concept of "I" is a communicational convenience, much as time is a computational convenience; they are not things that have a property of existence (as do material things). Of course, I am distinguishing the concept of I from the human being that uses the word. Human beings obviously exist.

Regardless of you giving attention to you, YOU are bigger than the meat bag and all aspects of you in all times and space exist even if the limited function of individual meatbag awareness is dysfunctional or sleeping/unconscious.
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Casey
post Feb 28, 2007, 06:51 AM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Feb 27, 2007, 11:45 AM) *

Yes. Whenever we tell somebody the truth, we are doing a good, not a harm.


People have been trying to tell them the truth for eons.

I think Sam Harris (and lucid) is suggesting a more radical course of action beyond simply trying to convince them of the irrationality.
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Rick
post Feb 28, 2007, 12:50 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Feb 25, 2007, 04:49 PM) *
... It is time to take an active role in stamping out this ignorance masquerading as knowledge, that calls itself religion. ...

Aside from pointing out that the emperor isn't wearing any clothes (there are no gods), what are some specific suggestions? Legislation seem out of the question in view of our legacy of freedom of speech.
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maximus242
post Feb 28, 2007, 01:15 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Feb 27, 2007, 03:04 PM) *

Suppose I am not thinking. Does "cogito ergo sum" then imply that I have ceased to exist? No. Proof of my existence seems to depend on my thinking, but if I stop thinking, then I may still unprovably exist.

I think that the concept of "I" is a communicational convenience, much as time is a computational convenience; they are not things that have a property of existence (as do material things). Of course, I am distinguishing the concept of I from the human being that uses the word. Human beings obviously exist.


I am not talking about if you stop thinking does your existance stop. I am talking about How can one think in the first place without a definition. Since thinking is what defines you, then what is it that allows you to think?

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 27, 2007, 07:42 PM) *

QUOTE
But Joesus, Reality IS Perception. Your entire reality is comprised of your perception, you know of nothing more than that which you percieve.

Reality exceeds perception if the Known reality or ego is limited to misunderstanding.

Would you say you can never know more than you perceive in this moment? If there is more to know and perceive then reality is greater than your awareness of it.


Thats simply changing perception. You change the perception of what you know and what you percieve possible to know. In dreams, we can learn things yet they are not a thing of reality as we know it. They are something internal, yet they can change too and create new things. That is imagination and it is the heart of creation.
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lucid_dream
post Feb 28, 2007, 01:27 PM
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Rick, I am suggesting not remaining tolerant. How you choose to act is contextual. I'm not suggesting anything illegal.
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Rick
post Feb 28, 2007, 03:17 PM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Feb 28, 2007, 01:15 PM) *
... I am talking about How can one think in the first place without a definition. Since thinking is what defines you, then what is it that allows you to think? ...

I guess it's kind of like the computer science bootstrap problem. How can anything make sense without some pattern to compare it to, and how can you get the pattern if nothing makes sense.

Isn't it rather magical being human?
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Rick
post Feb 28, 2007, 03:30 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Feb 28, 2007, 01:27 PM) *
... I am suggesting not remaining tolerant. ...

I have been gradually becoming less tolerant of foolishness that threatens our liberties. Foolishness such as requiring the Ten Commandments to be posted in courtrooms and public school classrooms.

Recently I got into a heated argument with a so-called Democrat who wants the government to imprison abortion providers because he believes some non-existent god puts some non-existent "soul" into an embryo at conception. I basically told him he was deluded. Needless to say, he didn't like that very much, but I think things like that need saying.
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Joesus
post Feb 28, 2007, 05:52 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 27, 2007, 07:42 PM) *

But Joesus, Reality IS Perception. Your entire reality is comprised of your perception, you know of nothing more than that which you percieve.
Reality exceeds perception if the Known reality or ego is limited to misunderstanding.

Would you say you can never know more than you perceive in this moment? If there is more to know and perceive then reality is greater than your awareness of it.


Thats simply changing perception. You change the perception of what you know and what you percieve possible to know. In dreams, we can learn things yet they are not a thing of reality as we know it. They are something internal, yet they can change too and create new things. That is imagination and it is the heart of creation.

So the world is flat if you say it is......
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Flex
post Feb 28, 2007, 06:01 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 28, 2007, 05:52 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 27, 2007, 07:42 PM) *

But Joesus, Reality IS Perception. Your entire reality is comprised of your perception, you know of nothing more than that which you percieve.
Reality exceeds perception if the Known reality or ego is limited to misunderstanding.

Would you say you can never know more than you perceive in this moment? If there is more to know and perceive then reality is greater than your awareness of it.


Thats simply changing perception. You change the perception of what you know and what you percieve possible to know. In dreams, we can learn things yet they are not a thing of reality as we know it. They are something internal, yet they can change too and create new things. That is imagination and it is the heart of creation.

So the world is flat if you say it is......


Not just if you say it is. You must percieve it to be flat, and honestly believe it. Back in the day, the world really was flat in those peoples minds, and that is all that matters.
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lucid_dream
post Feb 28, 2007, 07:59 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Feb 28, 2007, 03:30 PM) *
I basically told him he was deluded.


Kudos to you, Rick. Now what we need to do is give some public denouncements in churches during Sunday mass.
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maximus242
post Feb 28, 2007, 08:42 PM
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QUOTE(Flex @ Feb 28, 2007, 07:01 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 28, 2007, 05:52 PM) *

QUOTE(Joesus @ Feb 27, 2007, 07:42 PM) *

But Joesus, Reality IS Perception. Your entire reality is comprised of your perception, you know of nothing more than that which you percieve.
Reality exceeds perception if the Known reality or ego is limited to misunderstanding.

Would you say you can never know more than you perceive in this moment? If there is more to know and perceive then reality is greater than your awareness of it.


Thats simply changing perception. You change the perception of what you know and what you percieve possible to know. In dreams, we can learn things yet they are not a thing of reality as we know it. They are something internal, yet they can change too and create new things. That is imagination and it is the heart of creation.

So the world is flat if you say it is......


Not just if you say it is. You must percieve it to be flat, and honestly believe it. Back in the day, the world really was flat in those peoples minds, and that is all that matters.



Well done Flex, your starting to catch on.
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Joesus
post Feb 28, 2007, 08:50 PM
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QUOTE
Not just if you say it is. You must percieve it to be flat, and honestly believe it. Back in the day, the world really was flat in those peoples minds, and that is all that matters.

In this case the Perception without experience was delusion. They took on a superstious belief that if you sailed to the horizon you would fall of the edge of the world and into a den of monsters.
Whether it mattered to them or not, is not the point.
If there is a universe supported by consciousness and its natural laws of being, and it contains objects of perception, is it solely created for delusional comprehension?
Tho that may be the case for the imagination driven by fear, and anyone who is not grounded in the refined use of the senses.
Fear is a feeling created by the mind wandering into the past and possible futures, plagued by superstitious beliefs that the physical body is the sole embodiment of the consiousness that inhabits it. Knowing this is a fallacy helps lend the mind to disseminate between halucinations or thoughts that are entertained not from experience but from the influence of rumors, and to turn towards something that is more stable, like optimism and possibility.

It would be one thing if everyone were witness to the edge of the world and those who were falling off as they sailed toward it, but this perception was mentally fabricated without any experience. Sure they experienced fear but that doesn't make anything real, it only makes the feeling of fear seem real.

If you say what they believed was all that mattered then I would say what really mattered, was that illusion was cast aside for experience through the evolution of conscious awareness and thought, in the ability to use the senses more wisely than to simply fall under the influence of every suggestion that creates caution and blocked intuitive resonance to the heart from fear.
Following every thought that wanders into the mind is not intelligence, and to follow those thoughts that lead to increasing fear rather than conscious awareness is lunacy.

To simply cast aside the idea of any clarity of understanding through refinement of the senses in the assumption that every person is only perceiving reality according to their individual ego means there is no consciousness above and beyond limited self interpretation.

I do agree that everything that is entering the awareness is automatically filtered through the muck of experiences of the past in lower states of conscious awareness as described by Patanjalo in the Yoga Sutras, but I also know that one can rise above the influence of illusions based on superstition and fear.

Thing is, the ego thinks it can build its own measuring system and make baseline comparisons to its own self judgment without opening itself to more than its limited points of reference. Because it can't escape its own cage of limitation and remain the same it would rather drag everything down to its level than risk moving outside of the self created box.

Those who believe their perceptions are limited will naturally try to place that belief into others because that is the nature of the influence of limitation created by ego identification.

Tho there is much knowledge accumulated on the Earth much of it doesn't really matter when you are sick, hungry or dead.
For all that has been accomplished by feeding the intellect, humanity is still far from achieving awareness in a reality that works to support humanity in its ability to be unconditionally supportive of each other as a whole, productive as a whole and compassionate as a whole.
Instead, it supports the teaching of competitiveness with the idea that winners are better than losers.

This is the same superstitious thinking that created fear of falling off of the edge of the world. People become stressed over the idea that they may not be able to live up to the grade, no matter who is creating the standard. Mostly it is our own lack of self worth that keeps us from rising above the democratic system of beliefs about ourselves as a species or as a community participant.

Kids are killing each other to prove they have balls enough to be strong, because they can't find it inside of themselves to stand on their own without seeking recognition on the outside from someone who might convince them they are ok.
Kids who are suffering under peer pressure and the projected stress of their parents who grew up to live and accept the same psychosis are being sabotaged by their stressed parents who are too busy with their own insecurities to help their kids.
In fact they don't know how to help them because they haven't helped themselves, they only know how to prepare themselves to enter a rat race to be accepted in a society heavily influenced by their peers and the mainstream media.

Perception is everything. If one cannot become clear or if there is no hope of becoming clear to the reality of things there is no hope that humanity would rise above its self created dogmas and self destructive behaviors to separate itself into classes of haves and have nots, in intelligence, beauty, wealth and health.

The universe has an intelligence behind it and it lives in all of us. There is no reason to believe we are cut off from it or that we can never perceive the ultimate reality of life clearly, together in Unity of heart mind and spirit.

If you really want to change the world you would have to know there is something that it can change into.

You will never know what that is as long as you focus on what is wrong with it and what needs to change.
You would necessarily have to know what is beyond evil and what is beyond that which is misperception.

What you focus on grows.

Focus on any problem through the idea of best guess scenarios and the belief in the limited misperception of reality in yourself and everyone else and nothing will ever change because you yourself have no faith even in yourself, to change.

If you could rise above delusion and separation from that which links all life, you would know what is in all life. How your brother or sister thinks, the desires they have and the reasons desires are compromised by fear and faithless beliefs created out of fear, self doubt and superstition.

Focus on the universal intelligence that is at every moment supporting your growth beyond fear and suffering, and It feeds your mind with intelligence to create something that will outlive and outshine the shadows of fear and delusion.

Of course if you really believe there is no such thing then you have no way for it to show itself, you aren't looking for it, and your senses are closed to the reality of it!!
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maximus242
post Mar 01, 2007, 01:21 AM
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Hmm, If a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it, does it make a sound? Does the tree fall, how do we know it has fallen? How do we know what sound a tree is supposed to make when it falls?

How is it you can claim that your perception of something can be made clearer than someone elses? I think you can have the perception that your perception is clearer, but I see no plausible explanation that your perception is anymore right or wrong then anyone elses.
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Orbz
post Mar 01, 2007, 02:52 AM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Mar 01, 2007, 06:21 PM) *

Hmm, If a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it, does it make a sound? Does the tree fall, how do we know it has fallen? How do we know what sound a tree is supposed to make when it falls?

How is it you can claim that your perception of something can be made clearer than someone elses? I think you can have the perception that your perception is clearer, but I see no plausible explanation that your perception is anymore right or wrong then anyone elses.


I'm reminded of the story in the Chuang Tzu about the fish- How do you know what I know?
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Joesus
post Mar 01, 2007, 09:21 AM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Mar 01, 2007, 09:21 AM) *

Hmm, If a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it, does it make a sound? Does the tree fall, how do we know it has fallen? How do we know what sound a tree is supposed to make when it falls?
By experiencing it fall and being a part of it.
Unless you deny the creation of manifest reality, then there is something to experience. Perception through belief my alter the experience due to feelings and attachments but if there is something to experience then there is something that is tangible to consciousness itself. That is the reflection of consciousness. Consciousness is a constant presence and once one goes through the filters of belief to experience what is behind the images created through those filters then perception is cleared of any pretense.

QUOTE
I see no plausible explanation that your perception is anymore right or wrong then anyone elses.

You wouldn't in your present state of belief because you still focus only on surface appearances and judge what you and others see.

This is perception, that is perception... but you throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Literally this saying is regarding the camouflage created around reality.

Back in the days when the yearly bath was taking place the father got the first bath, then the wife the kids and the youngest was last. By that time the water was so dirty you couldn't see what was in it. Hence the saying, don't throw the baby out....

If the mind is stressed with belief upon belief it is difficult to perceive what is in it but to assume this is the natural condition of the mind, and that it cannot perceive with any clarity is not a rational assumption.

It is the natural ability of the human to percieve clearly not the other way around.
The rationality of enlightenment is clear perception.
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maximus242
post Mar 01, 2007, 09:33 AM
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Indeed, but what constitutes clear perception? Why does your opinion of what clear perception is overrule someone elses?

What if you have two enlightened people with differing views? Which one is correct?
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Joesus
post Mar 01, 2007, 10:01 AM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Mar 01, 2007, 05:33 PM) *

Indeed, but what constitutes clear perception? Why does your opinion of what clear perception is overrule someone elses?

What if you have two enlightened people with differing views? Which one is correct?

Consciousness recognises consciousness. Resonance with truth.

If you believe you've beened burned too many times by false beliefs you will wait forever for God to prove to you that God exists.

Have you ever met an enlightened person?
Do you believe they exist and do you believe they would have clear perception?

Have you ever been in a room with more than one enlightened person?

If you did you wouldn't ask me the question. Your ego does because it doesn't believe in the idea of anyone being able to lead you to clear perception of yourself.
The underlying belief in your subconscious is that you would rather fight for your own independence than to surrender yourself to another. You just don't trust in the reality of clear perception.

There are three recommendations in the eastern traditions of teaching enlightenment.
Surround your self with enlightened company
Study scripture (the written word of the enlightened)
Svadhaya (study of the Self) through meditation on the still self within all activity. Which by the way is not emptiness.
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maximus242
post Mar 01, 2007, 10:07 AM
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You still didnt answer the question, what constitutes clear perception and why is that perception clearer than anyone elses?
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