It Is a Good Thing to Dialogue Until We Understand One Another, Fully..., Furthermore, it is okay to disagree, agreeably :) Options

[Flex]

I would say I practice it, I treat all people basically the same. If they deserve respect, I show them respect. If they do not deserve respect, I don't show them respect.

I met a homeless man who went by the name of "smokey". He sat outside all day every day, rain or shine playing his guitar just trying to make a living--I showed him the utmost respect;I took him out to dinner, and had a nice conversation with him~ I have met many other homeless individuals who were strung out on all kinds of drugs and I showed them no respect or sympathy.

So you treated the one who need nothing from you with kindness and the ones who needed everything from you with indifference...

How is this the same?

Both individuals were HOMELESS--they both needed something from me; one man EARNED his money, the other provided no service. One man earned a free dinner--the other earned nothing~ Totaly fair. Anyone who is providing me a service will be justly compensated...

[Joesus]

The one who earned your respect performed for you.

The other, who was lost in the addiction, could not perform so like any dog owner you didn't reward the dog with a treat.

Completely fair... You give according to what you get.

[Flex]

The one who earned your respect performed for you.

The other, who was lost in the addiction, could not perform so like any dog owner you didn't reward the dog with a treat.

Completely fair... You give according to what you get.

Exactly; I am a really selfish individual

[lucid_dream]

you'll grow beyond that. Give it some time. And I won't say "I told you so" when you do.

[Flex]

you'll grow beyond that. Give it some time. And I won't say "I told you so" when you do.

I hope I never move beyond it~ Why would I do something that hurts me? That would just be silly. Why do I spend my free time teaching disable kids how to swim? Because it makes me feel good about myself. There is nothing wrong with that, we both gain something; I am just not lying to myself acting like I am doing selfless cherity.

[Joesus]

Giving from fullness rather than giving to fill yourself because you need something is a completely different experience.
If you never want to change your experience from a place of need and fear of being hurt to a place of complete understanding of life and fullness of life from the inside out, then you won't.

It never hurts to give without getting something back unless you are like the addict and can't live without the fix. Generally speaking you will surround yourself with like minded people who will love you as long as you keep giving to them. Then when you no longer give them what they want they will abandon you because you are undeserving of their attention.

[Flex]

Giving from fullness rather than giving to fill yourself because you need something is a completely different experience.
If you never want to change your experience from a place of need and fear of being hurt to a place of complete understanding of life and fullness of life from the inside out, then you won't.

It never hurts to give without getting something back unless you are like the addict and can't live without the fix. Generally speaking you will surround yourself with like minded people who will love you as long as you keep giving to them. Then when you no longer give them what they want they will abandon you because you are undeserving of their attention.

I gave an example of what you consider "giving without getting". It is just a lie. You play it off like you are not getting anything, but you are, whether you like it or not--realize it or not. This brings up a good new topic~ Is there a such thing as selflessness? If so, please give an example.

[lucid_dream]

ego-death

[Flex]

ego-death

What like you die? That is the only time I have ever seen someones ego die~I guess your ego dies when you are in a coma

[lucid_dream]

ego-death does not imply death of the body. Ego is what many misidentify with. We are not our egos. Egos are a delusion most are born into, but often we see beyond it at some point.

[Flex]

ego-death does not imply death of the body. Ego is what many misidentify with. We are not our egos. Egos are a delusion most are born into, but often we see beyond it at some point.

Ego is defined as "self". If you no longer have a sense of self, you don't exist. The only instances of ego-death reports I can find are individuals who are on high doses of LSD. To not have an ego, one would not be able to posess memory, as all memories contribute to who you are. An individual with no memory can have no cognitive capacity. Once one has experienced ego-death, they would essentially be a rock--or dead.

[lucid_dream]

There appears to be some merit to ego, in the sense that many are born with it, perhaps because an individual's survival is strengthened by their perception of their individuality. But this sense of individuality is an illusion. It might not seem obvious to you, but I believe, in time, you will see and experience it.

To not have an ego, one would not be able to posess memory, as all memories contribute to who you are. An individual with no memory can have no cognitive capacity.

I can tell you with certainty that this is false. Without memory, we have no personal history and sense of personal identity, but this does not imply cognitive deficits. Quite the contrary, in fact.

[Flex]

There appears to be some merit to ego, in the sense that many are born with it, perhaps because an individual's survival is strengthened by their perception of their individuality. But this sense of individuality is an illusion. It might not seem obvious to you, but I believe, in time, you will see and experience it.

Alrighty, answer me this... Do you have a perception of the world? And was this perception derived from your senses?

[lucid_dream]

Do lucid dreams derive from your senses? Is creativity enhanced during lucid dreaming? Without the perception of this world, without our senses, we are left with something analogous to a lucid dream (but not quite), where many constraints and prejudices of the mind are lifted, where creativity reigns, and where additional powers of mind, the variegated wonders of consciousness, and the depths of the Self reveal themselves. You are all that and more. The misindentification with the ego limits your capabilities and your experiences.

The ego is like an insular little island that simply recognizes "itself" and "other". That is it's universe; But when you realize that these boundaries between "self" and "other" are illusory, that they are the product of ego and false identification, then that is the beginning of wisdom. You may fear the identification with "other", just as many find the thought, and occasionally the experience, of ego-death to be terrifying. But it really isn't. Your own personal history is like an effervescent dream in many respects. You have to take it to the next level, and only you can do that.

[Flex]

Do lucid dreams derive from your senses? Is creativity enhanced during lucid dreaming? Without the perception of this world, without our senses, we are left with something analogous to a lucid dream (but not quite), where many constraints and prejudices of the mind are lifted, where creativity reigns, and where additional powers of mind, the variegated wonders of consciousness, and the depths of the Self reveal themselves.

In all of my lucid dreams, I have several earthly senses--sight,sound,smell,taste, but not touch. I can not feel in my dreams. I however have never GAINED additionsal senses in my dreams, which leads me to believe that my dreams are nothing more than a product of my subconscious, as I gain no additional powers. I believe what you are talking about is imagination, not ego-death.

Do you percieve the world through your senses? Do you have the capabilities of thought? If you do, you have an ego. If you percieve the world, I know for a fact that you have a different perception than I do, and thus you must have an ego. If you can think, you clearly have learned progressively, and continue to learn each day, and thus have an ego.

[lucid_dream]

I do have an ego, but I regard it in a pragmatic manner, as a useful tool on occasion, but nonetheless, don't identify with it.

Ego implies a sense of separation and individuality. Without it, why would you believe that thought would be impaired? If anything, operating under the assumption that you are your ego impairs your thought and limits your experience.

I believe what you are talking about is imagination, not ego-death.

No, I am not. Ego-death, if anything, greatly potentiates the imagination and creativity. Yes, you can have imagination and creativity with ego, but I expect that it will be enhanced without it, and in addition, will open up new experiences and new vistas in your consciousness and awareness.

[Flex]

I do have an ego, but I regard it in a pragmatic manner, as a useful tool on occasion, but nonetheless, don't identify with it.

Ego implies a sense of separation and individuality. Without it, why would you believe that thought would be impaired? If anything, operating under the assumption that you are your ego impairs your thought and limits your experience.

I believe what you are talking about is imagination, not ego-death.

No, I am not. Ego-death, if anything, greatly potentiates the imagination and creativity. Yes, you can have imagination and creativity with ego, but I expect that it will be enhanced without it, and in addition, will open up new experiences and new vistas in your consciousness and awareness.

I guess what I was trying to say is that ego is a synonym for culture--all that an individuals does, produces, knows etc. There are no limits to ones ego. The limits are confined to the imagination of the individual. If you can imagine it, it exists.

[lucid_dream]

I understand what you're saying. But I can say that if you experience ego-death, you will wake up in a spiritual sense. More precisely, that what you will experience is a spiritual waking up, a type that is unimaginable with ego in the way. What you choose to do with this awakening and how it changes you are interesting topics to consider.

[Flex]

I understand what you're saying. But I can say that if you experience ego-death, you will wake up in a spiritual sense. More precisely, that what you will experience is a spiritual waking up, a type that is unimaginable with ego in the way.

I don't understand HOW you could possibly seperate Self from ego...I would love to understand, but try hard as I might, it just wont happen, and so long as I am trying it wont happen apparently. Could you give like an actual description of what it is like to the best of your abilities? How would you observe ego death? If you are percieving ego death through your senses, you are percieving it through your ego.

[lucid_dream]

this may be a good place to start:
http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3770&hl=

[Flex]

I will get through reading this eventually

[Joesus]

I gave an example of what you consider "giving without getting". It is just a lie. You play it off like you are not getting anything, but you are, whether you like it or not--realize it or not. This brings up a good new topic~ Is there a such thing as selflessness? If so, please give an example.

You gave an example of giving with conditions and judgment. You gave an example or your demands on the conditions in order for you to give.

You gave an example of your judgment against the addict because you saw the other as being more valuable to you.

Similar is the projection of the judgmental God who demands service and worship in order to give love to its creation.


Selfless love/giving or unconditional Giving or love is..
Giving because you enjoy giving rather than giving because you want something in return from who you gave. Giving without conditions because you judge who should receive love or the gifts of love based on ones actions or choices in life.

God gives unconditionally and without the need to get anything back. Just as nature gives freely and with abundance when man doesn't destroy the natural conditions that allow the earth to produce vegetation, and animals of different species.


One is from wholeness, fullness and JOY, where giving expands love between you and those you give to. The other is giving because you need to feel good. The need being that you don't feel good before giving and you won't feel good unless you get something back from those you give to, in meeting the conditions of your demands.

Selfishness that doesn't include others is not selflessness. Selflessness is in giving and receiving because you recognize what you give to is intimately connected to you on a larger scale.

Who you are is more than the body you think you are.

In Lucid dreaming the conscious awareness is not locked in the physical limitations of the waking body even though you experience physical sensations. In Lucid dreaming you can fly, and move instantly from one place to another. The body you inhabit is ethereal rather than solid. When you wake up you re-establish the awareness in the beliefs that you are locked in the physical body you yourself created.

Expanding consciousness beyond the physical body is death to the identification (EGO) that restricts all awareness to only the physical body. The waking state mind believes when the body dies the consciousness that inhabits it dies. This is only the belief of the ignorant mind, the ego and its limited beliefs of itself.

True selflessness dawns when the awareness is no longer restrained to the body and you have no need to protect what was limited by belief. Unity with all things dawns in the awareness and when you give to those objects of perception it expands love in you, and them, at the same time.
You realize the more you give the more love expands in you and everything around you. There is no holding back in judgment and no separating anything or anyone from giving or from your love because it only draws the awareness back towards limits of self and perception of self. You become more of who you are as your consciousness expands into all people and all things, and beyond.

Death of the ego is frieghtening to the ignorant mind. The ego lies to you when you believe you will cease to exist if the ego relenquishes its hold over you. The ego is the servant not the master. Death of the ego is not the destruction of the sense of being it is the end of limitations on the sense of being. The lifting of blindfolds that keep you from experiencing cosmic Self and God consciousness.

Just because you don't experience this doesn't mean it isn't real any more than if you never swam in a lake does it mean you can't or won't ever swim.

People search for one taste of this experience, take mind altering drugs to experience the expanded Self.

In the Upanishads, those ancient texts of Unity, there is an interesting passage describing the bliss of full human realization:
This is the inquiry concerning bliss.
Let there be a youth, a good youth, well read, prompt in action, steady in mind and strong in body. Let this whole earth be full of wealth for him. That is one human bliss.
That which is a hundred times the human bliss, that is one bliss of the human angels; and also the bliss of a human in Unity.
That which is a hundred times the bliss of the human angels, that is one bliss of the divine angels; and also the bliss of a human in Unity.
That which is a hundred times the bliss of the divine angels, that is one bliss of the Fathers in their long-enduring world; and also the bliss of a human in Unity.
That which is a hundred times the bliss of the Fathers in their long-enduring world, that is one bliss of the gods who are born so by birth; and also the bliss of a human in Unity.
That which is a hundred times the bliss of the gods who are born so by birth, that is one bliss of the gods by work; and also the bliss of a human in Unity.
That which is a hundred times the bliss of the gods by work, that is one bliss of the gods; and also the bliss of a human in Unity.
That which is a hundred times the bliss of the gods, that is one bliss of the Lord of Evolving Consciousness; and also the bliss of a human in Unity.
That which is a hundred times the bliss of the Lord of Evolving Consciousness, that is one bliss of the Lord of the Unbounded; and also the bliss of a human in Unity.
That which is a hundred times the bliss of the Lord of the Unbounded, that is one bliss of God the Creator; and also the bliss of a human in Unity.
That which is a hundred times the bliss of God the Creator, that is one bliss of God the Father; and also the bliss of a human in Unity.

The glory of full human realization is beyond the ability of any words to express. There are no limits to the human condition other than those we artificially impose due to painful past belief in limitation, suffering and loss. These limits are the lies of the ego; the simple truth as presented by the Holy Spirit is that life is free! life is joy! life is unconditioned by time or space or causation; all limits on life are without exception born of illusion.
This is the ultimately simple and true Reality of life.

[Casey]

Like it or not Flex, we're all interconnected.

That strung out, homeless person that you didn't help may very break into your house and steal your possessions for drug money. By helping him in some way, you may prevent that. You're benefitting everyone.

Of course, you are benefitting the other more...but you are still benefitting yourself.

Also, I agree with lucid. Your perspective will likely change with age/experience.

[Joesus]

A wise sage was sleeping in his room when a theif wakes him from his sleep. He is shuffling through the items in the house looking for money and valuables not aware that the occupant of the house, is in the room, and awake.
The sage says, "Take whatever you need but leave me enough to pay my rent."
The man startled, says who's there!
Again he repeats himself, "Take whatever you want but leave me enough so that I may pay my rent, obviously you need the rest more than I do, just leave me what I need and take what you want."

The thief takes what he will and later is arrested when he breaks into another place and is caught.

The theif while serving his time thinks about the sage and how he let him have what he wanted without any struggle or malice.
After doing his time he seeks out the sage and asks him why he left him to take from his house.

His reply was, "The universe provides for all my needs. Those that live in fear covet their belongings and believe there is never enough to go around. Man takes from another only because they do not know that they keep abundance from coming to them by their fear of lack. I knew that you would come back to seek greater knowledge by my actions and so here you are."

The thief then became a student of Self Mastery under the tutelage of the Master and became a Master himself.

[Culture]

I gave an example of what you consider "giving without getting". It is just a lie. You play it off like you are not getting anything, but you are, whether you like it or not--realize it or not. This brings up a good new topic~ Is there a such thing as selflessness? If so, please give an example.

If you do X and it is completely opposed to your self interest that is selfless. Whether you believe it or not there are altruists in this world, some which have caused more harm than good. There are many that argue it is impossible for humans to be selfless due to various psychological factors. At the end of the day find that people can either be selfless or they can't.

[Joesus]

For the ones that can, they are drawn to examples that can elevate their awareness of truth and reality.

[Flex]

"Giving because you enjoy giving rather than giving because you want something in return from who you gave"

That is totaly selfish~ You are giving because you ENJOY giving. You are getting joy in exchange for giving. I know very few people in this world who give selflessly, but I believe they are gaining something as well. I have a few friends who have given away all of their posessions and live in the woods, but in exchange for givning away all of their posessions, they gained piece of mind. An individual who is truely selfless would have no concept of property. Anyone who "owns" anything is not a selfless individual. To give selflessly would imply that something was first yours to give~

"Just as nature gives freely and with abundance when man doesn't destroy the natural conditions that allow the earth to produce vegetation, and animals of different species."

Looks like nature is a bit like I am~ To get food from the earth, you must provide the earth with food and nutrients. A cow takes a dump in a pasture, in exchange, the pasture grows grass for the cow to eat. Plants take carbon dioxide in exchange for the oxygen they give. We take oxygen in exchange for Co2--it is all balanced reciprocity.

[Flex]

Like it or not Flex, we're all interconnected.

That strung out, homeless person that you didn't help may very break into your house and steal your possessions for drug money. By helping him in some way, you may prevent that. You're benefitting everyone.

Of course, you are benefitting the other more...but you are still benefitting yourself.

Also, I agree with lucid. Your perspective will likely change with age/experience.

Oh I have no doubt that we are all interconnected~ But that strung out homeless person was not producting anything, and thus did not recieve anything in return. What are you giving the homeless man who does nothing? Some money? What does money mean when the stock market crashes? What does money mean when the government takes all of your posessions? You can not give a man his life back, he must take it back. One man was deserving of a dinner, he earned it (consequently he also got $50 to cover the cost of purchasing a new liscense so that he could go to a homeless shelter). I am more than willing to lend a helping hand to those who truely want it--I am not willing to help those who do not wish to help themselves. What could possibly be more fair than giving to those who give? Balanced reciprocity makes the world go round.

[Casey]

Note: I did not suggest giving him money.

There's a reason for that. Money alone doesn't solve problems.

[Lindsay]

Money! Well, a subject dear to my heart. How much a part it is of ALL our relationships with one another. Keep in mind, this site is costing our host money. And if "time is money" then all of us all is circulating--a term I prefer to 'spending'--it each time we read and write.

I readily admit: While I have studied the subject for decades--I like to call myself and intuitive economist--much about it is still a mystery to me.

ECONOMICS--literally, the rules of the household (OIKOS=the Greek for house; NOMOS=the rules of...) The King James version of the Bible translates this word as 'steward (keeper of the animal stys) ship. The good steward was a good economist.
=====================================
BTW, are any readers of this thread knowledgeable on the subject on money and economics. The great Thomas Carlyle (1795-1881) called economics, "The dismal science". I wonder why!

BTW 2, because of the lack of enough money, I grew up in a kind of third-world poverty.

For example, from one to eight (1930-1938), I lived in a grey-shingled (paint was expensive) and small-semi--a rented house, which was owned by the mining company for which my father worked, as a miner.

Although we had electric lights they were not the fanci-kind of modern lights we have today. The wiring was visible and on the interior walls. They hung, like "electric candles", from the ceiling.

To make a long story short: We had very few of what we would, today, call necessities. Our heat came from coal-fed stoves. In the winter, we lived mostly in two rooms. Our water came from a community well, which was located in the middle of the roadway. Can you imagine? No wonder many people got water-borne infections, which caused deaths. It was not unusual, now and then, to find a drowned-dog, or a cat, in the well.

However, despite all this, I look back on my childhood as a happy one because I was free to move on to other things, later. It was also filled with adventure.