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> Homosexuality, You tell me your theory, I'll tell you mine...
Technologist
post Dec 21, 2006, 10:12 AM
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How does one reconcile the existence of homosexual tendencies with a naturalistic framework?

After I hear from a few of this forum's participants I will provide my perspective - along with why I think this issue reveals something of great significance.


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lucid_dream
post Dec 21, 2006, 10:39 AM
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My own view is that homosexual tendencies serve no function and are irrelevant within the bigger picture. Homosexuals often appear overly-preoccupied with their own sexual and identity issues, are often narcissistic hedonists, and rarely contribute anything of significance to society.

What do you mean by "naturalistic framework"? Everything is in Nature, so technically speaking, everything is naturalistic.

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post Dec 21, 2006, 10:45 AM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Dec 21, 2006, 10:39 AM) *

My own view is that homosexual tendencies serve no function and are irrelevant within the bigger picture. Homosexuals often appear overly-preoccupied with their own sexual and identity issues, are often narcissistic hedonists, and rarely contribute anything of significance to society.

What do you mean by "naturalistic framework"? Everything is in Nature, so technically speaking, everything is naturalistic.

You can't be serious, Lucid. You sound real prejudice right now. Homos are human beings like all of us. And a lot of famous artists, scientist, and phylosophers were homos: Leonardo Da Vinci, Isaac Newton, Plato, to name a few. How does sexual orientation bare any significance on the big picture anyway?
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Hey Hey
post Dec 21, 2006, 10:47 AM
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QUOTE(Technologist @ Dec 21, 2006, 06:12 PM) *

How does one reconcile the existence of homosexual tendencies with a naturalistic framework?
This needs a view of the wider picture to do with the diversity of sexual gratification, and the meaning and range of love. Homosexuality occurs widely in the animal kingdom, sometimes possibly due to poor aim, sometimes possibly due to a learned gratification process. I suppose gratification (quelling the urge) without procreation could be a way to moderate a growing population, especially in a species without contraception (non-human animals mainly then).
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lucid_dream
post Dec 21, 2006, 10:53 AM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 21, 2006, 10:47 AM) *
I suppose gratification (quelling the urge) without procreation could be a way to moderate a growing population


That's a great solution for human population control too!


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lucid_dream
post Dec 21, 2006, 10:55 AM
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QUOTE(code buttons @ Dec 21, 2006, 10:45 AM) *
And a lot of famous artists, scientist, and phylosophers were homos: Leonardo Da Vinci, Isaac Newton, Plato, to name a few.
I contest this claim. Can you produce any proof that Newton or Da Vinci were homosexual?

QUOTE(code buttons @ Dec 21, 2006, 10:45 AM) *
How does sexual orientation bare any significance on the big picture anyway?
Heterosexuality leads to propagation of the species and hence fits into the big picture. Homosexuality does not, and only produces sexual gratification for a select few "homosexuals".

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Technologist
post Dec 21, 2006, 11:22 AM
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QUOTE
Lucid: What do you mean by "naturalistic framework"? Everything is in Nature


You just answered your own question. biggrin.gif Naturalism, as opposed to supernaturalism.

www.naturalism.org

QUOTE
Lucid: Homosexuals often appear overly-preoccupied with their own sexual and identity issues, are often narcissistic hedonists, and rarely contribute anything of significance to society.


I was hoping that participants could keep this thread from getting value laden.
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post Dec 21, 2006, 11:27 AM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Dec 21, 2006, 10:55 AM) *

Heterosexuality leads to propagation of the species and hence fits into the big picture. Homosexuality does not, and only produces sexual gratification for a select few "homosexuals".

Do you need a Q-tip? I said, how does sexual orientation bare any significance on the big picture anyway? Or stated another way, Does not evolution of the human species need contributions from the human pool at every angle regardless of sexual orientation, skin color, ect? Or stated another way: Is Unity of consciousness, the holy grail of evolution, supposed to be discriminant of certain individual consciusness because the vessels these consciousness wear belong to individuals with the 'wrong' sexual orientation?
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lucid_dream
post Dec 21, 2006, 11:27 AM
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QUOTE(Technologist @ Dec 21, 2006, 11:22 AM) *

QUOTE
Lucid: What do you mean by "naturalistic framework"? Everything is in Nature


You just answered your own question. biggrin.gif Naturalism, as opposed to supernaturalism.

www.naturalism.org

QUOTE
Lucid: Homosexuals often appear overly-preoccupied with their own sexual and identity issues, are often narcissistic hedonists, and rarely contribute anything of significance to society.


I was hoping that participants could keep this thread from getting value laden.

You opened the door, but granted, it was gratuitous, unneeded, and only revealed my own biases.

Code buttons, I answered your question the first time.

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post Dec 21, 2006, 11:34 AM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Dec 21, 2006, 10:55 AM) *

contest this claim. Can you produce any proof that Newton or Da Vinci were homosexual?

It's all over the literature. Just google it.
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post Dec 21, 2006, 11:43 AM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 21, 2006, 10:47 AM) *

Homosexuality occurs widely in the animal kingdom, sometimes possibly due to poor aim

LOL!!! I think you meant something other than what I'm thinking!... Or, didn't you?!
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Hey Hey
post Dec 21, 2006, 11:51 AM
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QUOTE(Technologist @ Dec 21, 2006, 07:22 PM) *

QUOTE
Lucid: What do you mean by "naturalistic framework"? Everything is in Nature


You just answered your own question. biggrin.gif Naturalism, as opposed to supernaturalism.

www.naturalism.org

QUOTE
Lucid: Homosexuals often appear overly-preoccupied with their own sexual and identity issues, are often narcissistic hedonists, and rarely contribute anything of significance to society.


I was hoping that participants could keep this thread from getting value laden.

In the context of a potential social condition (who knows yet, if ever) then opinions are important to hear.
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Hey Hey
post Dec 21, 2006, 11:52 AM
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QUOTE(code buttons @ Dec 21, 2006, 07:34 PM) *
It's all over the literature. Just google it.
Filth! laugh.gif
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Hey Hey
post Dec 21, 2006, 11:53 AM
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QUOTE(code buttons @ Dec 21, 2006, 07:43 PM) *
QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 21, 2006, 10:47 AM) *
.. sometimes possibly due to poor aim
LOL!!! I think you meant something other than what I'm thinking!... Or, didn't you?!
As a (part) biologist, I reserve the right to use technical terms.
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lucid_dream
post Dec 21, 2006, 12:15 PM
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QUOTE(code buttons @ Dec 21, 2006, 11:34 AM) *

QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Dec 21, 2006, 10:55 AM) *

contest this claim. Can you produce any proof that Newton or Da Vinci were homosexual?

It's all over the literature. Just google it.


I did and I couldn't pull anything up over Newton or Da Vinci being homosexual. You may be thinking of John Nash. From my understanding and reading of biographies, Newton was a sexually-inhibited, socially inept, psychopath; Principia Mathematica and Opticks notwithstanding.
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Hey Hey
post Dec 21, 2006, 01:11 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Dec 21, 2006, 08:15 PM) *

QUOTE(code buttons @ Dec 21, 2006, 11:34 AM) *

QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Dec 21, 2006, 10:55 AM) *

contest this claim. Can you produce any proof that Newton or Da Vinci were homosexual?

It's all over the literature. Just google it.


I did and I couldn't pull anything up over Newton or Da Vinci being homosexual. You may be thinking of John Nash. From my understanding and reading of biographies, Newton was a sexually-inhibited, socially inept, psychopath; Principia Mathematica and Opticks notwithstanding.

Corr, didn't you know, the Mona Lisa is a painting of Isaac Newton in drag! Come on, it's Christmas!
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rhymer
post Dec 21, 2006, 01:29 PM
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My eyes have never worked properly, except with glasses.
One of my ears hears nothing.
I hear noises which no-one else hears.
One of my legs stopped working. (It's ok now with an artificial hip).
I suddenly go dizzy, sweat and vomit at infrequent intervals.


I lead a happy life and feel content.

I feel the greatest sadness for homosexuals, those trapped in wheelchairs and alll the other 'innocent' humans who are afflicted in ways which I am certain Nature did not intend!
If I could see some survival advantage in these production or behavioural defects I might find it easier to accept them.

Most all humans have things go wrong physically or mentally during life.

The vast majority of these ailments are not 'chosen'.
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post Dec 21, 2006, 01:47 PM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 21, 2006, 01:11 PM) *

Code, didn't you know, the Mona Lisa is a painting of Isaac Newton in drag!

Bullsh*t!!! I don't believe that for a minute!(LMAO!!!)
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maximus242
post Dec 21, 2006, 02:35 PM
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Homosexualality occurs during gender development. Its the way in which the parents raise children that determines their sexual orientation. In one sutdy there were two twin boys, one had the shlong destroyed in an accident at the hospital. So one boy was raised as a girl and one as a boy, the results were conclusive. The boy who was raised as a girl acted like a biological girl in every way, without any hormones.

Gender is not something you are born with, its something your taught. Homosexuals usually have a sexual identity crisis of sorts, the same sort of thing happens with transexuals. The only major diffrence is that transexuals feel a greater urge to become the opposite gender. Where as homosexuals are usually happier with their gender, but have some identifiers of that with the opposite sex.

Homosexuality is a thing of psychology, not biology.

Im a bigger Leonardo Da Vinci buff than all of you, he may or may not have been homosexual, it was said that he never loved a woman. There are some old texts of him spending time in his youth with boys, there is a theory that the Mona Lisa is Leonardo Da Vinci painted as a woman. Remember this is the Renissance, it used to be normal for men and boys to spend 'time' together, I know that is disgusting but its how History was, this is especially apparent in Rome.

This theory comes from the fact that when x-rays were taken of the Mona Lisa, there was an underpainting which is a picture of Leonardo Da Vinci. So it is very possible that Leonardo painted himself onto the Mona Lisa in come ways. However we do know that the Mona Lisa was based off of The Duke of Milans wife, so it is also possible that the underpainting was simply a sketch and he re-used the canvas.

Was Leonardo homosexual? Maybe, maybe not, its true he did not love a woman, but remember he was also a very private and solitary person, he may just of not wanted a relationship. The overall view of Leonardo in the art world is that he probably was homosexual, I guess well never know for sure. But hey, why does it matter anyways?
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post Dec 21, 2006, 02:55 PM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Dec 21, 2006, 02:35 PM) *

Homosexuality is a thing of psychology, not biology.

That's an opinion. Subject to scientific scrutiny.
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maximus242
post Dec 21, 2006, 03:02 PM
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More than an opinion - it is many opinions, you find me one sociologist or psychologist who says it is Biological. Every book on the subject directly relates it to Sexual Development, I have never seen any proof that Homosexuality is caused by Biology.
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Technologist
post Dec 21, 2006, 03:14 PM
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A recent study:

June 26, 2006

Homosexuality may have sibling factor
Men have an increased chance of being gay if they have several older brothers from same mom, study says.

QUOTE
WASHINGTON - Men who have several older brothers have an increased chance of being gay -- whether they were raised together or not -- a finding researchers say adds weight to the idea that sexual orientation is based in biology.

The increase was seen in men with older brothers from the same mother, but not those who had stepbrothers or adopted brothers who were older.

"It's likely to be a prenatal effect," said Anthony Bogaert of Brock University in St. Catharines, Canada, who did the research. "This and other studies suggest that there is probably a biological basis" for homosexuality.

He studied four groups of Canadian men, a total of 944 people, analyzing the number of brothers and sisters each had, whether or not they lived with those siblings and whether the siblings were related by blood or adopted.

His findings are reported in a paper appearing in today's issue of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

S. Marc Breedlove, a professor in the neuroscience and psychology department of Michigan State University who was not part of the research, said the finding "absolutely" confirms a physical basis.

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Technologist
post Dec 21, 2006, 03:17 PM
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QUOTE
I have never seen any proof that Homosexuality is caused by Biology.


One of my pet peeves. Proof is deductive, evidence in inductive.
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maximus242
post Dec 21, 2006, 03:29 PM
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No, the story was from a book on Sexual Development and Gender Identity, at the time of the writing the child was still an adolecent. The study was conducted by a group of Psychologists. He was planned for HRT at puberty but had not yet recieved any hormones.
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Technologist
post Dec 21, 2006, 03:32 PM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Dec 21, 2006, 06:02 PM) *

More than an opinion - it is many opinions


Sorry, I don't mean to come off as a prick, but...

QUOTE
Appeal to the Masses

A remarkably common but fallacious form of reasoning is: "It must be true (or good) because everybody believes (or does) it." Mothers understand this as a fallacy; they often counter this argument by asking: "If everyone jumped off a cliff, would you do it too?" Of course you wouldn't. What this shows is that just because a lot of people believe something or like something doesn't mean that it is true or good. A lot of people used to believe that the Earth was flat, but that certainly didn't make it so. Similarly, a lot of people used to believe that women should not have the right to vote. Popularity is not a reliable indication either of reality or of value.

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maximus242
post Dec 21, 2006, 03:39 PM
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No I was actually wondering when someone was going to post that. Ive said the exact same thing you just said, in so many situations - we are arguing a scientific thing though, so general scientific conscensus has weight.

If were talking purely philosophy then duck for cover.

Its like saying there is no gravity - yes its possible that there may not be gravity, however the general agreement is that there is. Actually by what you posted I could say whatever the hell I wanted to and if every other person on the planet disagreed with me - my opinion would have the same weight as all of theirs. I could say you a purple elephant and if you disagreed with me, no matter what you or anyone else said, my opinion would still be equal. But you have forgotten the most important point..

Truth is an opinion.
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post Dec 21, 2006, 03:44 PM
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QUOTE(Dianah @ Dec 21, 2006, 03:22 PM) *

Are you referring to the story of David Reimer?

Killer avatar, Dianah. And welcome back!
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Technologist
post Dec 21, 2006, 03:54 PM
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QUOTE
Maximus: But you have forgotten the most important point..

Truth is an opinion.


Hehe, no I don't think I have forgotten. After all, that is one of my common mantras. smile.gif

But Maximus, are we talking about the prerogative of the intellectual, or the standards of science as a meta-entity? From my perspective there is a big difference between the two.
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Technologist
post Dec 21, 2006, 03:59 PM
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Another study that argues for a strong genetic correlation:

6/16/2005

Genes Exert Powerful Effect On Sexual Behavior

QUOTE
New research has shown that the manipulation of a single gene in female fruit flies can make their sexual behavior resemble that of males, in a study that demonstrates the power of individual genes and the profound impact of genetics on complex sexual behavior.


The findings were published today in the journal Nature by scientists from Oregon State University, Stanford University and Brandeis University.

The research was done with the gene "fruitless," which is present in both male and female fruit flies and some other insect species. Ordinarily, only in males does this gene result in the creation of proteins that guide male sexual behavior patterns -- such as approaching females, tapping them, singing to them and performing little courtship dances.

However, through genetic manipulations the research group of university scientists was able to cause these same proteins to be produced in females, and when they were, the females showed classic patterns of male sexual behavior.

"When this genetic process was triggered in females, they acted as if they were masculinized," said Barbara Taylor, a professor of zoology at OSU. "And this was a single gene expressed in just a very small number of cells, controlling a surprisingly complex behavior. In a physical sense the females looked perfectly normal, but they acted like males and, if they were physically able to, I would not be surprised if they would have attempted to mate other females."

In related fashion, the researchers found, male fruit flies that had the "fruitless" gene inactivated failed to show normal male sexual behavior. But most of their other non-sexual behaviors, such as locomotion, flight or grooming, were unaffected.

According to Taylor, what's becoming clear is that genetic mechanisms set the stage for complex neuronal development that ultimately affect behavior.
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lucid_dream
post Dec 21, 2006, 04:04 PM
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and humans are just like fruit flies?
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