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post Dec 06, 2006, 07:01 AM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 06, 2006, 09:10 AM) *

Here's an article of relevance:




.... I can see the validity of the rehearsal thesis, but not all dreams are threatening.
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post Dec 06, 2006, 07:13 AM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 06, 2006, 09:43 AM) *

QUOTE(Culture @ Dec 06, 2006, 02:36 PM) *

QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Dec 06, 2006, 05:51 AM) *

Simple Consciousness - certain individuals in some one leading species in the slowly unfolding life of planet earth, some day, for the first time, became conscious. they started to know that there existed a world, a something, without them.


In future please quote the author of the information. I almost thought that the post was your own idea/thought.
http://www.ardue.org.uk/university/intro/mindcon.html
Mind and Consciousness

An Evolutionary Approach

by Richard Maurice Bucke, MD

Trip - you've been Googled!

But culture's point is really important if we are to conduct discussions with scientific credibility - we should stick to the scientific method.


Listen here.... I've been quoting Mr. Bucke for a long time now. If we would have to qoute every bit of information that we acquire, we would basically have to start quoting every word that we utter, for we are but a collection of previously dissected thoughts.... only we now disseminate them in a contemporary format.... so bite me Culture you little fruit loop (oh yeah, thanks for the great link... my little grunt.... oink oink).

Besides I would not dare butcher Buckes articulation as many here so blatantly do butcher previously articulated thoughts. They've become infected and unpure and unworthy of this forum.

I find it rather amusing reading and watching all the fish flounder about here on brainmeta land while I've been abstaining, from one idea to the next. Sometimes some people get so close to what it is they are after and then vear off on another trajectory all together. Some people are already there and don't even realize it, spinning around in circles following dead end trajectories.

Maybe after I write my thesis dissertation (which just so happens to be on the evolution of the conscious mind), I shall return in full force a bring a few of the local rowdies under control, as the BM seniors seem to be losing any sense of mind manipulation (nobody is stearing this rudderless ship) at least not in the right direction.

Then again.... maybe not, as I do not see any here worthy of enlightening and would be but a waste of valuable energy (esp. in today's energy conscious world).
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post Dec 06, 2006, 07:18 AM
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QUOTE(Lao_Tzu @ Dec 06, 2006, 09:30 AM) *

many scientists of psychology are beginning to question whether the brain might actually be more like an antenna, or a filter.


Yes..... the human brain evolving to tune into previously unaccessible frequencies.

Collecting new waves/particles of information.
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post Dec 06, 2006, 07:49 AM
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..... growth, development, evolution, or whatever we choose to call it, has always gone on, is going on now, and will always go on. New faculties will from time to time arise in the mind as they have in the past.....

Culture, be a dear and find me a source for this, thanks in advance.
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post Dec 06, 2006, 07:55 AM
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QUOTE(Culture @ Dec 06, 2006, 02:36 PM) *

QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Dec 06, 2006, 05:51 AM) *

Simple Consciousness - certain individuals in some one leading species in the slowly unfolding life of planet earth, some day, for the first time, became conscious. they started to know that there existed a world, a something, without them.


In future please quote the author of the information. I almost thought that the post was your own idea/thought.
http://www.ardue.org.uk/university/intro/mindcon.html
Mind and Consciousness

An Evolutionary Approach

by Richard Maurice Bucke, MD


QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Dec 06, 2006, 07:13 AM) *

Listen here.... I've been quoting Mr. Bucke for a long time now. If we would have to qoute every bit of information that we acquire, we would basically have to start quoting every word that we utter, for we are but a collection of previously dissected thoughts.... only we now disseminate them in a contemporary format.... so bite me Culture you little fruit loop (oh yeah, thanks for the great link... my little grunt.... oink oink).


Well do the author justice then. It was not meant to be sarcastic or pointing fingers at you Trip. I was unsure if the post was yours and I remembered reading word for word what you posted somewhere and then found it.


QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Dec 06, 2006, 07:13 AM) *


Besides I would not dare butcher Buckes articulation as many here so blatantly do butcher previously articulated thoughts. They've become infected and unpure and unworthy of this forum.

I find it rather amusing reading and watching all the fish flounder about here on brainmeta land while I've been abstaining, from one idea to the next. Sometimes some people get so close to what it is they are after and then vear off on another trajectory all together. Some people are already there and don't even realize it, spinning around in circles following dead end trajectories.

Maybe after I write my thesis dissertation (which just so happens to be on the evolution of the conscious mind), I shall return in full force a bring a few of the local rowdies under control, as the BM seniors seem to be losing any sense of mind manipulation (nobody is stearing this rudderless ship) at least not in the right direction.

Then again.... maybe not, as I do not see any here worthy of enlightening and would be but a waste of valuable energy (esp. in today's energy conscious world).


I agree with you. It has become a pssing contest. So why dont you step in? Especially considering that you're a specialist in the evolution of the conscious mind. I am really keen to hear what your own findings are and have little interest in reading posts that are just copied and pasted. The idea of a forum is to discuss/debate and I am sure that you are more than capable of holding your own.

To reiterate -> if the post is copied from other sites you should post the link to avoid confusion and at the same time share resources with others.
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post Dec 06, 2006, 07:57 AM
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For example, the human brain was originally very basic. Called the reptilian brain, it consisted mainly of the brain stem and it was built to support strong survival instincts. After many years, the mammalian brain, which among other things was geared to develop emotions, emerged. It took a few million years for the neo-cortex, or the thinking brain to develop. This brain is capable of many of our day-to-day functions such as performing mathematical calculations and reasoning.

I'll give you this one..... RTB.
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post Dec 06, 2006, 08:05 AM
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QUOTE(Culture @ Dec 06, 2006, 10:55 AM) *

QUOTE(Culture @ Dec 06, 2006, 02:36 PM) *

QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Dec 06, 2006, 05:51 AM) *

Simple Consciousness - certain individuals in some one leading species in the slowly unfolding life of planet earth, some day, for the first time, became conscious. they started to know that there existed a world, a something, without them.


In future please quote the author of the information. I almost thought that the post was your own idea/thought.
http://www.ardue.org.uk/university/intro/mindcon.html
Mind and Consciousness

An Evolutionary Approach

by Richard Maurice Bucke, MD


QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Dec 06, 2006, 07:13 AM) *

Listen here.... I've been quoting Mr. Bucke for a long time now. If we would have to qoute every bit of information that we acquire, we would basically have to start quoting every word that we utter, for we are but a collection of previously dissected thoughts.... only we now disseminate them in a contemporary format.... so bite me Culture you little fruit loop (oh yeah, thanks for the great link... my little grunt.... oink oink).


Well do the author justice then. It was not meant to be sarcastic or pointing fingers at you Trip. I was unsure if the post was yours and I remembered reading word for word what you posted somewhere and then found it.


QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Dec 06, 2006, 07:13 AM) *


Besides I would not dare butcher Buckes articulation as many here so blatantly do butcher previously articulated thoughts. They've become infected and unpure and unworthy of this forum.

I find it rather amusing reading and watching all the fish flounder about here on brainmeta land while I've been abstaining, from one idea to the next. Sometimes some people get so close to what it is they are after and then vear off on another trajectory all together. Some people are already there and don't even realize it, spinning around in circles following dead end trajectories.

Maybe after I write my thesis dissertation (which just so happens to be on the evolution of the conscious mind), I shall return in full force a bring a few of the local rowdies under control, as the BM seniors seem to be losing any sense of mind manipulation (nobody is stearing this rudderless ship) at least not in the right direction.

Then again.... maybe not, as I do not see any here worthy of enlightening and would be but a waste of valuable energy (esp. in today's energy conscious world).


So why dont you step in?


Not yet.... just guerilla styling it right now.... speaking in tongues. When you arrive things will simplify. So many echoes.
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post Dec 06, 2006, 08:17 AM
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[/quote]

Well do the author justice then. It was not meant to be sarcastic or pointing fingers at you Trip. I was unsure if the post was yours and I remembered reading word for word what you posted somewhere and then found it.

[/quote]

When does it stop belonging to others and when does it become our own?
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post Dec 06, 2006, 08:21 AM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 06, 2006, 02:20 PM) *

Then that by-product would have been acted upon by selection


If the mind is a by-product of the biology, then would it have evolved using natural selection in a non physical way (thoughts, ideas, language)?

I believe this is a perfectly sensible approach and creates a link between the evolution of biology, the mind and the memes of language. It also requires only a single solution that is repeated on all levels, something that surely follows the fractal nature of reality.

As for the brain being a reciever rather than a producer of consciousness, it seems this is a definite possibility given my own experience:

http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=15632

The frequencies we are currently able to pickup could be precursors for biological evolution that allow us to pickup even higher frequencies.
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post Dec 06, 2006, 08:42 AM
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[quote name='Trip like I do' date='Dec 06, 2006, 08:17 AM' post='72940']
[/quote]

Well do the author justice then. It was not meant to be sarcastic or pointing fingers at you Trip. I was unsure if the post was yours and I remembered reading word for word what you posted somewhere and then found it.

[/quote]

When does it stop belonging to others and when does it become our own?
[/quote]

No problem with where youre going with this :-)
The only problem I have is with plagiarism. Although not your intention, it could be construed as that by others on the forum and in so doing lose credibility.
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post Dec 06, 2006, 08:50 AM
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[/quote]
The frequencies we are currently able to pickup could be precursors for biological evolution that allow us to pickup even higher frequencies.
[/quote]
Now your talking..... but things do become simplified in higher dimensions, not more convoluted.
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post Dec 06, 2006, 08:52 AM
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[quote name='Culture' date='Dec 06, 2006, 11:42 AM' post='72947']
[quote name='Trip like I do' date='Dec 06, 2006, 08:17 AM' post='72940']
[/quote]

Well do the author justice then. It was not meant to be sarcastic or pointing fingers at you Trip. I was unsure if the post was yours and I remembered reading word for word what you posted somewhere and then found it.

[/quote]

When does it stop belonging to others and when does it become our own?
[/quote]

No problem with where youre going with this :-)
The only problem I have is with plagiarism. Although not your intention, it could be construed as that by others on the forum and in so doing lose credibility.
[/quote]
We are all bloody plagarists, can you not see`this, at the most basic level?
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post Dec 06, 2006, 09:01 AM
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QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 06, 2006, 08:21 AM) *

... then would it have evolved using natural selection in a non physical way (thoughts, ideas, language)?
I believe this is a perfectly sensible approach and creates a link between the evolution of biology, the mind and the memes of language. It also requires only a single solution that is repeated on all levels, something that surely follows the fractal nature of reality.

Hmm! Very interesting approach, and appealing too. Go on, please.
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post Dec 07, 2006, 01:44 AM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 06, 2006, 04:35 PM) *

QUOTE(Lao_Tzu @ Dec 06, 2006, 02:30 PM) *

Why does mind have to have started? Could it not be beginningless and endless?

You've been watching What The Bleep! Gulp.

Well, yes, I have seen it... but it didn't inspire that comment. I just thought that I would question the assumption underlying the topic - that something must have a start.

But if you'd rather not engage with that, that's okay.

QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 06, 2006, 04:35 PM) *

QUOTE(Lao_Tzu @ Dec 06, 2006, 02:30 PM) *

I realise that the dominant paradigm on this board is that the brain is the thing that produces the mind, but many scientists of psychology are beginning to question whether the brain might actually be more like an antenna, or a filter.

Who are these scientists and where can I find their papers in peer reviewed scientific journals?

I don't actually know... I don't know where to find papers or peer-reviewed scientific journals, and suchlike. I really just wanted to make mention of the idea, which I first read about in Aldous Huxley's Doors of Perception... he quoted "eminent Cambridge philosopher, Dr. C. D. Broad":

"...that we should do well to consider much more seriously than we have hitherto been inclined to do the type of theory which Bergson put forward in connection with memory and sense perception. The suggestion is that the function of the brain and nervous system and sense organs is in the main eliminative and not productive.

Each person is at each moment capable of remembering all that has ever happened to him and of perceiving everything that is happening everywhere in the universe. The function of the brain and nervous system is to protect us from being overwhelmed and confused by this mass of largely useless and irrelevant knowledge, by shutting out most of what we should otherwise perceive or remember at any moment, and leaving only that very small and special selection which is likely to be practically useful."


Of course, most of that goes a bit too far for the current paradigm. But for all that I'm on about the first and second sentences will suffice.

If you're after present-day scientists, the name that comes to mind is Rupert Sheldrake.... so here are a few links you might find interesting...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Experim...hange_the_World
http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/books/sheldrake.htm
http://www.sheldrake.org/D&C/controversies...imes060907.html
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post Dec 07, 2006, 03:22 AM
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I'm glad something I said has not been immediately shot down, because I can only speak from my own experiences and intuition. I'd appreciate any help in understanding how the biology, mind and culture may be following a fractal pattern. I'll waffle on regardless.

The mutations in the biology of the brain may have allowed simple processes to be remembered and recalled. Again I go back to the polarity of experience here - once a pattern is recognised, it is utilised in problem solving over and over. Whether thats "Fire hurts", "Apples good" or "Stick is a weapon", its the same.

We all know repeated physical activity leads to habit in a person/organism (walking, driving, writing, speaking, addictions). The mind learning is a similar process, repeated ideas become hard wired in the brain and allow what were once hard concepts to be reused quickly and in abstract ways. I'm sure this pretty good evidence that the processes that have shaped our bodies and behaviour are also present in the way we construct ideas to solve problems.

The popularity of memés and memeplexes is down to the fact we can apply the same evolving traits to
language. The main problem with the theory is that it doesnt seem to add anything of use to the description of evolving language, we could simply use terms such as catchphrase, saying, song, lyric, virus etc. But I think a rewording of these "categories" of thought expression can only force people to
redevelop meanings to the words. These meanings are then free from past association and can be used in a purely theoretical way. This may then lead to breakthroughs in memé theory which if found to be the truth, will cause huge amounts of heated debate about the nature of reality.

I have no doubt that our realities are fractal and recursive, but at this level of complexity its <i>almost</i> impossible to see from our perspective. I guess without the ego, or in a state of enlightenment, maybe more processes can be understood.
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post Dec 07, 2006, 04:13 AM
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Language is not inherited. Genes that provide the potential for language learning and its physical manifestation are inherited.

Memes could be the genes of machines. As software or hardware information they could be part of a replicating system's inheritance. (Copy errors would be analogous to mutations). If one believes that the manipulation of information is all that is required to create mind, then machines could easily be envisaged as having mind.

Is language necessary for mind? The language of words is not. How many facilitators of language (words, pictures, noises etc) could we remove to be sure that there was no language in an organism, prior to determining if there was still mind? But even lower organisms use chemical signals (elementary communication/language?). Where did mind start?

(An aside: Of course, there is no reason why we could not imagine building biological machines in the future. With their DNA and cells they could be so close to humans that they could have mind. In fact they could be potentially indistinguishable from humans. We might want to build them lacking the potential for mind, of course, so we could enslave them).
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post Dec 07, 2006, 05:15 AM
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QUOTE(Lao_Tzu @ Dec 07, 2006, 09:44 AM) *

If you're after present-day scientists, the name that comes to mind is Rupert Sheldrake.... so here are a few links you might find interesting...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Experim...hange_the_World
http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/books/sheldrake.htm
http://www.sheldrake.org/D&C/controversies...imes060907.html

Thanks, but no thanks. His early scientific work was fine but then turned into a bit of a David Icke (http://www.davidicke.com/icke/).

But the brain as a receiver! Receiving what from whom? What about transmitting? If it's like telepathy, I'd rather read more David Icke (not really) or more on telecom chip implants - now that's worth investigating further!
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post Dec 07, 2006, 06:41 AM
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Well there is a lot of frequencies in the natural world and our mind is created from varying frequencies within the brain. From what is fairly straight forward, the stars that are the nucleus of our solar system and that fertilised our planet. We don't have to jump to the conclusion that Aliens are beaming consciousness into our heads for their own amusement.

Its pretty clear to me that the process that created the cosmos also ushered in biological life - to think otherwise is pretty arrogant in my opinion. Of course it could be God moving in mysterious ways lol </sarcasm>.
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post Dec 07, 2006, 06:50 AM
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QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 07, 2006, 02:41 PM) *

Well there is a lot of frequencies in the natural world and our mind is created from varying frequencies within the brain. From what is fairly straight forward, the stars that are the nucleus of our solar system and that fertilised our planet. We don't have to jump to the conclusion that Aliens are beaming consciousness into our heads for their own amusement.

Frequencies are properties of something, not anything in themselves:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency

So what you say is no help really.
QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 07, 2006, 02:41 PM) *

Its pretty clear to me that the process that created the cosmos also ushered in biological life - to think otherwise is pretty arrogant in my opinion.

No dispute here.
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post Dec 07, 2006, 09:12 AM
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Alpha, Beta, Delta, Theta Brain Waves, electrical frequencies? I'm not a scientist, mathematician or a professional of any academic area, only an interested soul trying to convey a little meaning. You understood what I meant and yet poked me with a metaphorical stick. sigh.
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post Dec 07, 2006, 09:28 AM
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QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 07, 2006, 05:12 PM) *

Alpha, Beta, Delta, Theta Brain Waves, electrical frequencies?

See:
http://peyote.com/jonstef/brain.htm
Has a colour diagram showing how frequencies vary between the brain wave types you mention.
QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 07, 2006, 05:12 PM) *

I'm not a scientist, mathematician or a professional of any academic area, only an interested soul trying to convey a little meaning.

Ambiguity and vagueness (worse still, equivocation) are the tripwire of understanding.
QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 07, 2006, 05:12 PM) *

You understood what I meant and yet poked me with a metaphorical stick. sigh.

Sorry. Do you mean that external electrical activities can influence the brain/mind? This is certainly true. But what have they to do with the origin of the mind (that they influence)?
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post Dec 07, 2006, 08:23 PM
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QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 07, 2006, 10:12 AM) *

Alpha, Beta, Delta, Theta Brain Waves, electrical frequencies? I'm not a scientist, mathematician or a professional of any academic area, only an interested soul trying to convey a little meaning. You understood what I meant and yet poked me with a metaphorical stick. sigh.


Frequencies are based on hertz, which are the number of revolutions per second. Electricity moves either back and forth or in a constant loop (AC or DC). How fast that elecricity moves decides the number of revolutions per second/hertz.

Okay now the brain is a bioelectrical mechanism, so... it has a electrical frequency. How fast the elecricity inside the brain moves is what determines the brainwave frequency.

Diffrent frequencies are used for diffrent levels of thinking and states of consciousness.

0.5 - 3.0 The Delta frequency is a sleeping state in which you are in REM, deep sleep or are lucid dreaming.

3.1 - 8.0 The Theta frequency is regular sleep, memory recall, creativity, and the shuman resonance is in there too.

8.1 - 12.0 The Alpha frequency is an altered state of consciousness, think of it like day dreaming, your not asleep but your not totally awake either.

12.1 - 30.0 The Beta range includes regular awake state, high level learning, logical brain functions.

I cannot describe all of the things involved for each one here, but it gives you an idea.
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post Dec 07, 2006, 09:18 PM
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Hey, did anyone see this before:

http://iands.org/research/vanLommel/vanLommel.php

Nicely written but watch out for the regular putting 2 and 2 together to make 5.
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post Dec 07, 2006, 11:10 PM
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Interesting thread...

QUOTE
Rick: Mind was the great natural invention that kicked off the Cambrian Explosion, the sudden divergence of complex life forms that occurred some time after the invention of multi-cellular animals (worm-like organisms) half a billion years ago. That is the theory of Stuart Hameroff.


There are rival hypotheses, though I am sure there is a grain of truth to most of them.

In The Blink of An Eye, by Andrew Parker

home.planet.nl/~gkorthof/korthof60.htm
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post Dec 08, 2006, 02:11 AM
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QUOTE(Technologist @ Dec 08, 2006, 07:10 AM) *

Interesting thread...

QUOTE
Rick: Mind was the great natural invention that kicked off the Cambrian Explosion, the sudden divergence of complex life forms that occurred some time after the invention of multi-cellular animals (worm-like organisms) half a billion years ago. That is the theory of Stuart Hameroff.


There are rival hypotheses, though I am sure there is a grain of truth to most of them.

In The Blink of An Eye, by Andrew Parker

home.planet.nl/~gkorthof/korthof60.htm

Rick's quote mentions Stuart Hameroff's idea (not a theory, I suggest). Here is a summary for the uninitiated: http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/penros...f/cambrian.html. Watch out for the anthropomorphic statements regarding paramecia (e.g. seek and find food, identify and couple with mates). Of course, anthropomorphism is redundant if even single-celled organisms can do what we do. Also, he seems to prematurely and automatically associate "intelligent behaviour" with mind/consciousness. My room thermostat is thinking about changing the temperature and decides to do so, so of thing? The bridge between IB and mind is given less consideration than it deserves, and the jump to mind is made very quickly and speculatively. An example is when he states:

A conscious organism having an experience of fear or pain would be motivated to avoid threatening situations, and one having experience of taste would be more motivated to find food. The experience of pleasure could well have promoted reproductive efforts.

Motivation is not necessary, rather a neuronal feedback loop (having no requirement for a mind) could determine a future behaviour if, for example, there is a record of survival (simply being present to undertake the present feedback loop-based event) then the same behaviour as previously used is employed. An experience of pleasure is not needed, just the ability to remain alive and be able to undertake the next life event. His statement:

As consciousness can't be measured or observed in the best of circumstances, it seems impossible to know whether or not consciousness emerged in early Cambrian organisms (or at any other point in evolution).

is apt and it presently disqualifies his notion as there is no evidence (shooting oneself in the foot comes to mind). This is not quite correct, as of course human history contains evidence of the human consciousness/mind - cave paintings, stone-age decorated items such as jewelry, Greek philosophers and the like.

There has been some major criticism of the Penrose-Hameroff idea of quantum consciousness mediated via microtubules, so these two are not infallible. This has been discussed elsewhere on this forum. I am happy to accept that the Cambrian explosion could have been the time when protomind began to evolve, it is just the vehicle that I am unhappy with, as are many others.

Maybe we should consider what the experiential and identity properties the protomind to mind intermediates had.
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Jester
post Dec 09, 2006, 09:37 AM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Dec 04, 2006, 01:02 PM) *

The puzzling part is why consciousness seems necessary for animal computation (when it's not necessary for machine computation). That puzzle is also called the hard problem of consciousness.


Hi Rick,

This is my first post here.

I think consciousness is necessary for machine computation, in our case human consciousness. A human has to set up the computer to compute, and then interpret the results.

What do you say?

Jester


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project-2501
post Dec 10, 2006, 04:32 PM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 06, 2006, 02:35 PM) *

QUOTE(Lao_Tzu @ Dec 06, 2006, 02:30 PM) *

Why does mind have to have started? Could it not be beginningless and endless?

You've been watching What The Bleep! Gulp.
QUOTE(Lao_Tzu @ Dec 06, 2006, 02:30 PM) *

I realise that the dominant paradigm on this board is that the brain is the thing that produces the mind, but many scientists of psychology are beginning to question whether the brain might actually be more like an antenna, or a filter.

Who are these scientists and where can I find their papers in peer reviewed scientific journals?


You may want to look at Timothy Learys or John C Lillys work.
But then again you may find them akin to vodoo.
I think that we cannot answer these questions without getting strange answers because the questions themselves are very metaphysical.
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lucid_dream
post Dec 10, 2006, 04:37 PM
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John Lilly and Tim Leary did way too many drugs (ketamine and LSD, respectively) and it no doubt damaged their brains, their intellectual capacities, and their judgements.
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post Dec 10, 2006, 04:41 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Dec 11, 2006, 12:37 AM) *

John Lilly and Tim Leary did way too many drugs (ketamine and LSD, respectively) and it no doubt damaged their brains, their intellectual capacities, and their judgements.
Yes, and we've been through that discussion before. Thanks for pointing it out again tho for newbies.
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post Dec 10, 2006, 04:41 PM
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QUOTE(lucid_dream @ Dec 11, 2006, 12:37 AM) *

John Lilly and Tim Leary did way too many drugs (ketamine and LSD, respectively) and it no doubt damaged their brains, their intellectual capacities, and their judgements.


I would disagree. Sorry if It has been posted before.
How would you be so certain to say that their intellectual capacities and their judgements were damaged?
We are dealing with 'out of the box' questions, which would imply 'out of the box' answers.
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