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Hey Hey
post Dec 01, 2006, 10:43 PM
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Was there an instant of first awareness, consciousness, mind? Where did this occur in evolution? Was there really a "mind big bang"? Did it happen to one individual organism at first? What was it like for this loner? Was it immediately acted upon by evolution and how was the "advantage" translated into a genetic form for transmission to the next generation. Or did the occurrence happen more than once? Where there different types of awareness, consciousness, mind created, with the present type having the "luck" to be selected and continue?
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Joesus
post Dec 01, 2006, 11:07 PM
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I am the Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the end being equal, awareness has always been.
Individual identity created within the experience of being a something or a someone, betweeen birth and death only temporarily creates an impression of thought that ignores the Truth.
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Hey Hey
post Dec 01, 2006, 11:09 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 02, 2006, 07:07 AM) *

I am the Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the end being equal, awareness has always been.
Individual identity created within the experience of being a something or a someone, betweeen birth and death only temporarily creates an impression of thought that ignores the Truth.

Oh bugger off back to the other board and let a sensible discussion proceed here.
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Joesus
post Dec 01, 2006, 11:12 PM
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You don't like this approach?
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Hey Hey
post Dec 01, 2006, 11:16 PM
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QUOTE(Joesus @ Dec 02, 2006, 07:12 AM) *

You don't like this approach?

Not an approach, a dogma.
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Joesus
post Dec 02, 2006, 12:51 AM
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Why is it a dogma?
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post Dec 02, 2006, 12:53 AM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 01, 2006, 10:43 PM) *

Was there an instant of first awareness, consciousness, mind? Where did this occur in evolution? Was there really a "mind big bang"? Did it happen to one individual organism at first? What was it like for this loner? Was it immediately acted upon by evolution and how was the "advantage" translated into a genetic form for transmission to the next generation. Or did the occurrence happen more than once. Where there different types of awareness, consciousness, mind created with the present type having the "luck" to be selected and continue?

Awesome question! You can't possibly be the first person to ask this question! There must be buck-loads of books about this subject!
I can only imagine what that day was like! WOW! I've always wondered about the ancient man's legacy. How much wasted knowledge! All those thousands of manuscripts at the Libraby of Alexandria, turned into ashes by order of the Roman hirarchy; so they could hide their deciet. It would have been a great place to search for an answer to your question.
But back to the subject at hand. There must have been an instant of first awareness, right? Just like there is an instant when you are born, you take your first breath, ect. A point in time.
QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 01, 2006, 10:43 PM) *

What was it like for this loner?

He/she probably stared at the moon in absolute awe and then wondered. Like in that movie about nearthantals: Quest For Fire. Exellent craft, by the way. Inspirational cinematography.
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maximus242
post Dec 02, 2006, 09:54 AM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 01, 2006, 11:43 PM) *

Was there an instant of first awareness, consciousness, mind? Where did this occur in evolution? Was there really a "mind big bang"? Did it happen to one individual organism at first? What was it like for this loner? Was it immediately acted upon by evolution and how was the "advantage" translated into a genetic form for transmission to the next generation. Or did the occurrence happen more than once. Where there different types of awareness, consciousness, mind created with the present type having the "luck" to be selected and continue?


It brings up more than one question Hey Hey, I remember about 4 months ago we tried to tackle this question. The problem was is that we need to define life - what is the definition of life? When do you stop living and become dead? This sounds like an easy question but its really hard when you go deeply into it. Were not talking about medical dead, this is unrevivable, gone dead. This raises a serious issue because for the first 14 days after a medical death, the brain remains active. Also, what about common roaches that can live for up to ten days without their head? Are they living because the body is still active or are they dead because the mind has stopped? Are people in a coma dead?

Once we figure out what life actually is, what is alive and what isnt - then we can answer the questions of consciousness.

I remember you stated that when they are unable to interact with reality they are dead. As you know, reality is an individual experience, so no one ceases to interact with reality, they simply change the reality they choose to interact with. Also, when you dream you are unable to interact with "reality" so if we think logically about that theory - we die every night and are reborn every morning. Sounds proposterous no? But I wonder if death is even possible to achieve?

In order to find out the origins of the mind we need to understand two things - what life is and what conciousness is. I dont believe your question can be answered until those two are.
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bluesfreefall
post Dec 02, 2006, 09:10 PM
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I think Terence McKenna may have been onto something when he said that the feeback loop of consciousness began when primitive man stumbled upon hallucinogenic plants. Consciousness, then, is the awareness of the self as other. Before that it was just get food, avoid pain, stay warm, etc. But at some point the interior dialogue started. Mckenna's view sort of meshes with that of Julian Jaynes in his "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind": that one part of the brain began speaking to the other part and man interpreted "the voice" as god and that's how religions got started. There is also a theory about the birth of the intellect espoused by Rudolph Steiner which involves exogamy, or the marrying outside of one's tribe. His view is that before exogamy, man had a consciousness which streamed together with that of his father, grandfather, etc, so that it was like one mind flowing together, and when blood was mixed due to exogamy, the mind was separated and that isolatedness is the intellect that we know today.
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Rick
post Dec 04, 2006, 01:02 PM
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The Cambrian Explosion: http://www.fossilmuseum.net/Paleobiology/C...anExplosion.htm

Mind was the great natural invention that kicked off the Cambrian Explosion, the sudden divergence of complex life forms that occurred some time after the invention of multi-cellular animals (worm-like organisms) half a billion years ago. That is the theory of Stuart Hameroff. See

http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/

That great invention was the neuron. Suddenly, computation for animal control was viable and an arms race of predator-pray strategies began. The puzzling part is why consciousness seems necessary for animal computation (when it's not necessary for machine computation). That puzzle is also called the hard problem of consciousness.
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rhymer
post Dec 04, 2006, 02:10 PM
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I suspect the sequence from 'reflex' to 'work-out' started with categorisation (food, stone, woman, father, etc....) and was then followed by (the advantageous) relationships (dark sky-rain, roar-danger, hunger-hunt).
More complex relationships like "why am I dry when it is raining?-in cave" ie., "something over head keeps me dry!!" may have followed.
I don't mean to imply above that questions were asked, but perhaps neurones started to allow more expansive interconnections (as Rick says).
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trojan_libido
post Dec 05, 2006, 03:55 AM
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McKenna has an extremely valid hypothesis about mushrooms. Hallucinogenic plants tend to lift you out of everyday thought patterns, and so potentially gave rise to the notion of self. The problem with his idea is it conflicts with our current western/scientific theory. The individuals experience has no validity in modern science.

I believe the answer can be found in the duality of the mind, body and our cultures, but its a metaphysical answer so I'll not go into it here.
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post Dec 05, 2006, 05:21 AM
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QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 05, 2006, 03:55 AM) *

I believe the answer can be found in the duality of the mind, body and our cultures, but its a metaphysical answer so I'll not go into it here.

Now we're getting somewhere; but, yea! let's not go there. For the time being.
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trojan_libido
post Dec 05, 2006, 08:51 AM
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Personally I think that categorisation is an aspect of a simpler system that has haunted the human race in every culture - Same/Different. To try and understand how the mind was built is impossible I suppose, since we dont know the path biology took in evolving the mind.

The main purpose of the mind, at least to me, is to process the senses and react in a way that preserves the life of the organism (disregarding suicidal lemmings and the poor male black widow spiders)

It is because of this that I believe the first decision ever made by a proto-brain had to revolve around a duality. How else can the first decision have evolved, and eventually lead to more complex decision making? Pain = bad, Pleasure = good. There is clearly a range of different good and bad things that can happen to an organism, and so this is where same/different is used and categorisation comes into play.

Its also important for an organism to understand the different weights of a decision, and so a sliding scale from + to - is created. For example, an organism is outnumbered by three attackers but has two options for escape. One is to run through bush full of spiky thorns, the other is to go the other way over a rolling lava trail. Now if the organism has encountered both before it is sure to pick the thorns over the lava, if it doesnt it is probably better out of the gene swarm lol.

After these dualities, categories and sliding scales it becomes infinitely more complex and I'm lost even to comment. However I do believe it will have followed a sequential number path, just from my own intuition.
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Hey Hey
post Dec 05, 2006, 09:55 PM
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QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 05, 2006, 04:51 PM) *

To try and understand how the mind was built is impossible I suppose,

So let's ignore all difficult problems and we will have an easy life. Impossible - that's your opinion.
QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 05, 2006, 04:51 PM) *

since we dont know the path biology took in evolving the mind.

We don't know how life started but we keep on looking.
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Trip like I do
post Dec 05, 2006, 11:45 PM
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The evolution of the mind is and has been a fragmentary process. It has unfolded in a series of gradual ascents. Each stage divided by an apparent leap of thought over what had previously been considered an apparent uncrossible chasm (from the lowest possible plane to higher planes of thought).
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trojan_libido
post Dec 06, 2006, 12:03 AM
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QUOTE(Hey Hey @ Dec 06, 2006, 05:55 AM) *

QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 05, 2006, 04:51 PM) *

To try and understand how the mind was built is impossible I suppose,

So let's ignore all difficult problems and we will have an easy life. Impossible - that's your opinion.
QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 05, 2006, 04:51 PM) *

since we dont know the path biology took in evolving the mind.

We don't know how life started but we keep on looking.


Oh I'm sorry Hey Hey, seems I forgot to reply in sarcasm. Your tone is both pointless and frustrating to me. There is not a person alive that believes we will one day have ALL the answers. As for ignoring all difficult problems, come on, when did I say that? Get that stick out of your ass.
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Hey Hey
post Dec 06, 2006, 12:29 AM
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QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 06, 2006, 08:03 AM) *

Oh I'm sorry Hey Hey, seems I forgot to reply in sarcasm. Your tone is both pointless and frustrating to me. There is not a person alive that believes we will one day have ALL the answers.

My attempt to get you to think rather than sit back ...
QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 06, 2006, 08:03 AM) *

As for ignoring all difficult problems, come on, when did I say that?

From the above, I thought you understood sarcasm.
QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 06, 2006, 08:03 AM) *

Get that stick out of your ass.

Tending towards abusive - watch it Chris! tongue.gif
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trojan_libido
post Dec 06, 2006, 04:52 AM
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Sorry, but please discuss or add to the points raised instead of picking up on the odd generalisation. That way the discussion can progress.
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post Dec 06, 2006, 05:43 AM
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(food, stone, woman, father, etc....) -----> perceptual consciousness

(dark sky-rain, roar-danger, hunger-hunt) -----> receptual consciousness

"why am I dry when it is raining?-in cave" ie., "something over head keeps me dry!!" -----> conceptual (self) consciousness
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post Dec 06, 2006, 05:51 AM
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Simple Consciousness - certain individuals in some one leading species in the slowly unfolding life of planet earth, some day, for the first time, became conscious. they started to know that there existed a world, a something, without them.
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post Dec 06, 2006, 05:58 AM
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A step from the unconscious to the conscious.
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Hey Hey
post Dec 06, 2006, 06:06 AM
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QUOTE(trojan_libido @ Dec 06, 2006, 12:52 PM) *

Sorry, but please discuss or add to the points raised instead of picking up on the odd generalisation. That way the discussion can progress.

We all could say ditto.
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Hey Hey
post Dec 06, 2006, 06:10 AM
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Here's an article of relevance:

Attached File  The_Role_of_Dreams_in_the_Evolution_of_the_Human_Mind.pdf ( 249.95k ) Number of downloads: 3
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Hey Hey
post Dec 06, 2006, 06:13 AM
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And a couple of relevant book reviews:

Attached File  The_Evolution_of_Intelligence.pdf ( 80.47k ) Number of downloads: 0

Attached File  How_Homo_Became_Sapiens__On_the_Evolution_of_Thinking.pdf ( 95.49k ) Number of downloads: 0
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Hey Hey
post Dec 06, 2006, 06:20 AM
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Mind was an accident? Of course, if there were genetic changes that led to mind then these would probably have been mutations and these might be viewed as accidents. But what I mean though, is that other changes for other evolutionary reasons gave rise to mind as a by-product. Then that by-product would have been acted upon by selection and would have evolved from there, similar to the route described by Trip. But this is no new suggestion so .... any evidence, or alternatives (with evidence)?
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Lao_Tzu
post Dec 06, 2006, 06:30 AM
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Why does mind have to have started? Could it not be beginningless and endless?

I realise that the dominant paradigm on this board is that the brain is the thing that produces the mind, but many scientists of psychology are beginning to question whether the brain might actually be more like an antenna, or a filter. Not the producer, but the filterer of consciousness for producing the human mind function, perhaps from a kind of Mind-at-Large...

Just a nudge. smile.gif

(And off the topic - I'd like to know whether anyone can verify that fat lovers are better... link)
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Hey Hey
post Dec 06, 2006, 06:35 AM
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QUOTE(Lao_Tzu @ Dec 06, 2006, 02:30 PM) *

Why does mind have to have started? Could it not be beginningless and endless?

You've been watching What The Bleep! Gulp.
QUOTE(Lao_Tzu @ Dec 06, 2006, 02:30 PM) *

I realise that the dominant paradigm on this board is that the brain is the thing that produces the mind, but many scientists of psychology are beginning to question whether the brain might actually be more like an antenna, or a filter.

Who are these scientists and where can I find their papers in peer reviewed scientific journals?
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Culture
post Dec 06, 2006, 06:36 AM
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QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Dec 06, 2006, 05:51 AM) *

Simple Consciousness - certain individuals in some one leading species in the slowly unfolding life of planet earth, some day, for the first time, became conscious. they started to know that there existed a world, a something, without them.


In future please quote the author of the information. I almost thought that the post was your own idea/thought.
http://www.ardue.org.uk/university/intro/mindcon.html
Mind and Consciousness

An Evolutionary Approach

by Richard Maurice Bucke, MD
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Hey Hey
post Dec 06, 2006, 06:43 AM
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QUOTE(Culture @ Dec 06, 2006, 02:36 PM) *

QUOTE(Trip like I do @ Dec 06, 2006, 05:51 AM) *

Simple Consciousness - certain individuals in some one leading species in the slowly unfolding life of planet earth, some day, for the first time, became conscious. they started to know that there existed a world, a something, without them.


In future please quote the author of the information. I almost thought that the post was your own idea/thought.
http://www.ardue.org.uk/university/intro/mindcon.html
Mind and Consciousness

An Evolutionary Approach

by Richard Maurice Bucke, MD

Trip - you've been Googled!

But culture's point is really important if we are to conduct discussions with scientific credibility - we should stick to the scientific method.
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