for those arguing the Bible's 'authenticity' Options

[Culture]

http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=668

Who changed the Bible and why? Bart Ehrman’s startling answers
October 22nd, 2006 by Erich Vieth

How often do we hear people “explaining� religious beliefs by stating �The
Bible says so,� as if the Bible fell out of the sky, pre-translated to
English by God Himself? It’s not that simple, according to an impressive
and clearly-written book that should be required reading for anyone who
claims to know “what the Bible says.�

The 2005 bestseller, Misquoting Jesus, was not written by a raving atheist.
Rather, it was written by a fellow who had a born-again experience in high
school, then went on to attend the ultraconservative Moody Bible Institute
in Chicago. Bart Ehrman didn’t stop there, however. He wanted to become an
evangelical voice with credentials that would enable him to teach in secular
settings. It was for this reason that he continued his education at Wheaton
and, eventually, Princeton, picking up the ability to read the New Testament
in its original Greek in the process.

As a result of his disciplined study, Ehrman increasingly questioned the
fundamentalist approach that the “Bible is the inerrant Word of God. It
contains no mistakes.� To the contrary,

We have only error ridden copies, and the vast majority of these are
centuries removed from the originals and different from them, evidently,
in thousands of ways.

[Joesus]

We have only error ridden copies, and the vast majority of these are
centuries removed from the originals and different from them, evidently,
in thousands of ways.

If there is no copy of the originals as Bart suggests then what thousands of ways are we talking about?

What I find interesting is the similarities made in certain Eastern scripture which uses the bible as the western version of the age old teachings passed down from Teacher to student in the Tradition of enlightenment.
The idea that enlightened sages have walked the planet who were living examples of these teachings then leads to the idea that there might be some truth in these teachings, unless one presupposes that these individuals are simply different than anyone else, maybe far superior genetically than the rest of humanity.

Maybe they're aliens

But seriously, I've found in my own study of tradition and the use of tools which are affective in expanding awareness that there are too many significant applications in the discipline related to both the eastern and western traditions. Meaning there is more truth in the bible than distortion.

The reason being, the messages underlying the entire scriptural content can't be erased or lost by manipulating a few sentences here and there, due to the ego and the differences in language and the lack in the ability to completely extend the experience of consciousness in so many words.

Making a few bucks off of the continuing skepticism around the bible and religion doesn't ever really change the fact that people still are drawn to spiritual ideals regardless of a few who refuse to give themselves to anything more than they have themselves experienced, or the need to explain everything before it is acceptible to think and feel for fear of stepping outside of the proverbial box, and therefore being the subject of ridicule themselves.

The basis of any true teaching is to point one back to their own heart, rather than ones own box created from fear and paranoia.

If Bart really wanted to be useful he might enhance what is real about the Teaching in the Bible rather than continue the witch-hunt to find what is wrong based on the misunderstanding of enlightenment and his negative experiences with those who themselves do not understand the teaching of the Bible.

It takes more intelligence to find what is right in the Bible.

Often, if we are focusing on what is wrong with our lives we fail to appreciate what is right.

Thoreau--"For every thousand hacking at the branches...there is one striking at the root.

What you focus on grows..

[cerebral]

Joesus, what do you choose to focus on, and is what grows an illusion since it implies time and change?

[Joesus]

Joesus, what do you choose to focus on, and is what grows an illusion since it implies time and change?

I choose to focus on the absolute.
Within the experience of choice, or the movement of awareness, the experience of what I focus on changes in depth and perspective. The absolute itself does not change but my experience of it and my understanding of it does.
Because the experience of it changes the relative importance of the experience can easily be surrendered back to its source. In continuing the process each experience folds back into itself.
In that sense the experience of the absolute is often considered an illusion but the term illusion is often incomplete because it implies that it didn't happen.
Experience is movement of awareness through layers of perception based on association to patterns of identity and recognition.
What one sees in the world and how one perceives the reality of the world changes within the perception of time and space.
Time and space is a functional creative aspect of consciousness for sensory experience and is not necessarily an illusion but a field of potential created for levels of interaction in relative states of consciousness or conscious awareness.

[cerebral]

From the link above:

This is god

theres a whole universe out there.. why would i send someone down to see you!?..

you dont even make up a pin prick on the edge of a giant universe…
theres millions of galaxys out there… all with millions of stars.. with millions and millions of planets..

do u think 1 jesus visited all of the planets at the same time?.. maybe there was a zillion cloned jesus’s and now theyre all sitting on my right hand.. why would i make a human jesus.. your all freaking idiots…

i cant be bothered with explaining it further ive got a million million other planets to worry about….

get your head out of the books and the clouds and live a real life!

[Hey Hey]

http://dangerousintersection.org/?p=668

Who changed the Bible and why? Bart Ehrman�s startling answers
October 22nd, 2006 by Erich Vieth

How often do we hear people �explaining� religious beliefs by stating �The
Bible says so,� as if the Bible fell out of the sky, pre-translated to
English by God Himself? It�s not that simple, according to an impressive
and clearly-written book that should be required reading for anyone who
claims to know �what the Bible says.�

The 2005 bestseller, Misquoting Jesus, was not written by a raving atheist.
Rather, it was written by a fellow who had a born-again experience in high
school, then went on to attend the ultraconservative Moody Bible Institute
in Chicago. Bart Ehrman didn�t stop there, however. He wanted to become an
evangelical voice with credentials that would enable him to teach in secular
settings. It was for this reason that he continued his education at Wheaton
and, eventually, Princeton, picking up the ability to read the New Testament
in its original Greek in the process.

As a result of his disciplined study, Ehrman increasingly questioned the
fundamentalist approach that the �Bible is the inerrant Word of God. It
contains no mistakes.� To the contrary,

We have only error ridden copies, and the vast majority of these are
centuries removed from the originals and different from them, evidently,
in thousands of ways.

Maybe I could refer you to the movie Zietgeist, in another board. We should not automatically believe all opinions we hear but they are worth a few minutes of consideration.

[code buttons]

We have only error ridden copies, and the vast majority of these are
centuries removed from the originals and different from them, evidently,
in thousands of ways.

If there is no copy of the originals as Bart suggests then what thousands of ways are we talking about?

What I find interesting is the similarities made in certain Eastern scripture which uses the bible as the western version of the age old teachings passed down from Teacher to student in the Tradition of enlightenment.
The idea that enlightened sages have walked the planet who were living examples of these teachings then leads to the idea that there might be some truth in these teachings, unless one presupposes that these individuals are simply different than anyone else, maybe far superior genetically than the rest of humanity.

Maybe they're aliens

But seriously, I've found in my own study of tradition and the use of tools which are affective in expanding awareness that there are too many significant applications in the discipline related to both the eastern and western traditions. Meaning there is more truth in the bible than distortion.

The reason being, the messages underlying the entire scriptural content can't be erased or lost by manipulating a few sentences here and there, due to the ego and the differences in language and the lack in the ability to completely extend the experience of consciousness in so many words.

Making a few bucks off of the continuing skepticism around the bible and religion doesn't ever really change the fact that people still are drawn to spiritual ideals regardless of a few who refuse to give themselves to anything more than they have themselves experienced, or the need to explain everything before it is acceptible to think and feel for fear of stepping outside of the proverbial box, and therefore being the subject of ridicule themselves.

The basis of any true teaching is to point one back to their own heart, rather than ones own box created from fear and paranoia.

If Bart really wanted to be useful he might enhance what is real about the Teaching in the Bible rather than continue the witch-hunt to find what is wrong based on the misunderstanding of enlightenment and his negative experiences with those who themselves do not understand the teaching of the Bible.

It takes more intelligence to find what is right in the Bible.

Often, if we are focusing on what is wrong with our lives we fail to appreciate what is right.

Thoreau--"For every thousand hacking at the branches...there is one striking at the root.

What you focus on grows..

I don't think it's the teachings of religions that some of us recent so much; but the use of religion as a tool to manipulate the masses. Spirituality is a necessary part of the human experience, or we wouldn't have it. Religion is one of the ways in which we've managed to focus our attention to spirituality(at least in the past, when we didn't know any better). But religion is not a good example of the end justifying the means; unfortunatelly. And religious leaders throughout history have never been cognizant of this.

[Joesus]

And newscasters don't review the material and seek its authenticity before spewing it out over the air waves.
Why not take our anger out on the media since it has a more profound affect on humanity than religion?

Honestly it is the individual who is responsible for finding facts and Truth. Religions of any kind do not become their own entity they are supported by those who want to let themselves believe what they hear. This would make the follower the battery for the machine and they do not supply the machine because they are forced to believe but because they want to believe.

Truth has been available since time began but why do people seek to support the illusion rather than the truth? It's not because the illusion is more powerful but because people choose to make the illusion more powerful.

You can't hypnotize someone against their will. Anytime someone becomes drawn to something or hypnotized it is because the hypnotist found it in the subject and fertilized it.

In one sense a child will stumble and fall until it finally begins to stabilize itself in the art of walking. The past is something that happened and tho things may resemble the past it is really useless to whine about something that doesn't have power over you unless you give it power over you and you like to whine.

[code buttons]

And newscasters don't review the material and seek its authenticity before spewing it out over the air waves.
Why not take our anger out on the media since it has a more profound affect on humanity than religion?

I don't agree with that. Unlike religion, mass media and its effects on the masses (pardon the redundance) are technology byproducts on one hand. Religious believes and interpretations of religious doctrines are well documented to have caused quite a bit of misunderstanding and deadly comfrontation amongst humans throughout history, on the other hand.

Honestly it is the individual who is responsible for finding facts and Truth. Religions of any kind do not become their own entity they are supported by those who want to let themselves believe what they hear. This would make the follower the battery for the machine and they do not supply the machine because they are forced to believe but because they want to believe.

Truth has been available since time began but why do people seek to support the illusion rather than the truth? It's not because the illusion is more powerful but because people choose to make the illusion more powerful.

You can't hypnotize someone against their will. Anytime someone becomes drawn to something or hypnotized it is because the hypnotist found it in the subject and fertilized it.

In one sense a child will stumble and fall until it finally begins to stabilize itself in the art of walking. The past is something that happened and tho things may resemble the past it is really useless to whine about something that doesn't have power over you unless you give it power over you and you like to whine.

I get the feeling that you are defending religion with your statement above as a positive effector on humanity throughout history; am I right? If true, then I think you are wrong. The fact that we have a choice in matters concerning religion is a freedom that neither all of us enjoy, nor we always have. In fact, the opposite is true, especially on the latter.

[Joesus]

Unlike religion, mass media and its effects on the masses (pardon the redundance) are technology byproducts on one hand. Religious believes and interpretations of religious doctrines are well documented to have caused quite a bit of misunderstanding and deadly comfrontation amongst humans throughout history, on the other hand.

So...picking the lesser of the two evils you would believe we don't have a choice to know the truth because the truth is not available and what we are told forces us to be a victim to reality.

[code buttons]

I don't understand what your question (whatever it is) has to do with the subject at hand. But I believe that freedom to choose what to believe in is a staple of the modern society we live in. We are lucky in that regard compared to past and even present generations (North Korea for example). We are free from the shackles of an elite imposed dogmatic (false) reality.

[Joesus]

Free? IF freedom means being able to have your cake and eat it too how do you know its the best cake?

If Theology deals with Authority and people accept the idea of authority they are going to see it at different levels if they are going to doubt themselves and their own ability to know what is best for themselves and the common good.

There is a large amount of energy expended on the past issues regarding religion as being destructive to human freedom, both psychologically and physically. In the past when the church was the authority because everyone had the fear of God in them today we have the Government think tanks replacing God, and Freedoms are controlled by laws initiated by a majority that is easily influenced by information pumped into the masses via the media.
Because humanity is no longer isolated in far off regions inaccessible by limited travel conditions like those when the horse was the most advanced means of transportation of the time, the influence of media is more invasive to all cultures.

There is always going to be Truth and then relative truths expounded by those who have seen it a certain way.
A cop can't just go to a crime scene and expect to get the same viewpoint from all the witnesses because an active mind that is excited whirls too many thoughts to really be absolutely clear about what they have experienced.

The Bible has been translated by humans who have a basic understanding of languages and if they do not understand the intentions of the original language and the understandings of the culture at the time they may not be accurate in relating the information.
It has been said that King James had a few ideas about how to manipulate the masses to keep power at the level of the throne rather than to relay the message of personal empowerment that was at the root of the Bible and the Teachings of Jesus and his disciples.
There have always been those who know the Truth but then there have been those with power and influence to steer a fearful public via twisted information to have them focus more on their fear rather than their empowerment.

Today there is no real separation from the past in that instead of the church of the past controlling the people we have a system using the media. The power behind the manipulation of the church is the same power behind the media of Today and that power is fear.
Focus on the fear, fill the media with stories of death and terrorism and who will you run to or where will you run to seek solace and sanctuary.

Arguing the bibles authenticity is a distraction as is todays belief in terrorism.

People know there is a reality in the idea of co-operation, love and trust but when someone throws fear at you more often than you have time to focus on anything else then you are going to be hypnotized by what you believe is real and then bring it to the forefront of your reality.
What you focus on grows.

Religion is not a bad thing nor is a TV or a Radio but anything can be used inappropriately for selfish reasons, and if you yourself decide to believe everything around you rather than see through the smokescreen then you will focus on whatever you believe is your real enemy.

In the case of religion and terrorism fear and ignorance is the enemy. There are many who abide by the info spread about in the world about Terrorism yet no one would rather get to know the people and their issues. People would rather accept what the Tube tells you even when there is evidence to the contrary.

Some people say there is no truth in the Bible but if you don't know where it came from originally and what the person it was written about really had to say then one could only make assumptions about it because of the many beliefs it has created in humanity about their own relationship with each other and the world.
Are people inherently bad because history is full of war and greed?

There are ideas and some ideas are more in tune with the union of humanity and the world and other ideas are based on fear, lack and the threat of not getting what's yours.
Are ideas bad or are people just stupid for not being able to discern the truth about what takes you away from love and compassion and towards fear and greed.
What causes us to perpetuate the idea that some are better than others and we could, would and should in the spirit of competition strive to move past our friends and neighbors to get what we can even if it means leaving them without?
Don't we teach this in our schools today? Competition is healthy right? Is then the school system evil or is it that we ignore certain basic realities that we are responsible for the welfare of our neighbors and our planet?

Anyone can blame the other person and their beliefs but that don't make you righteous. It only makes you part of the problem, and it doesn't necessarily make you free if you are still freely roaming a cage and have never known the outside of the cage.

[code buttons]

Joesus, you have the most inflated ego I've ever come across! Congratulations. And by freedom, I meant freedom of thought.

[Joesus]

Is thought free if you believe yourself to be a victim?

[Enki]

You know it is quite unclear what you are arguing about.
Really.

The Bible case can be explained by deferent ways.
First please define the criteria of truth.
If the criteria is not defined it is not possible to discuss the Bible related topic.

I think the best way is to rely on pure scientific argumentation but at the same time not to discard undeniable fact that there are things which science failed to investigate yet.

So we are in constant quest.

I have only one question related with the Bible: if it is God’s diary-blog for public viewing, then why He stopped to write it about 1800-1900 years ago and locked it?
He does not want to continue to write His diary?

One thing is clear: there is something we still do not know. But this fact must not serve as a background of total denial of everything related with the religion.

[Joesus]

The story is ongoing. People misinterpret timelessness by insisting it be defined and by holding the present in the past.

[Enki]

The story very proactively goes on.

People do not accept quite many things related with Bibile because things are not well explained. Here is the main problem.

And the other question is why things are not well explained?!

Those who know many details do not speak because those who know the most precious details are scattered around the world and they rarely meet to talk about cabbages and kings. But one day they all will meet and things will change.

I think someone should organize conference on the subject.

[Joesus]

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;


I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.

He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.......

And so on..

[code buttons]

And so on..

...And you are also the hollowest phony I've ever come across. You're so full of caca that you don't even realize it. Your posts have gone from distracting nusance to offensive blabbery over time; and they take away seriousness and legitimacy from the subjects being discussed in this forum. When will you stop posting so much bullshit on this forum?

[Enki]

a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

The silence was kept for too long period of time.
I think some archeological discoveries will illuminate quite many dark spots in the history.

[Enki]

And so on..

...And you are also the hollowest phony I've ever come across. You're so full of caca that you don't even realize it. Your posts have gone from distracting nusance to offensive blabbery over time; and they take away seriousness and legitimacy from the subjects being discussed in this forum. When will you stop posting so much bullshit on this forum?

Please do not call bullshit things you do not understand what they are.

E.g. I quite well understand the subject he speaks about.
The Ineffable things are not easy to express on proper language.

That is why it looks like bullshit.
_________________________________

I think Joesus, things related with the Bible must be made clear.
There must be clear answers to the questions I asked above.

[code buttons]

And so on..

...And you are also the hollowest phony I've ever come across. You're so full of caca that you don't even realize it. Your posts have gone from distracting nusance to offensive blabbery over time; and they take away seriousness and legitimacy from the subjects being discussed in this forum. When will you stop posting so much bullshit on this forum?

Please do not call bullshit things you do not understand what they are.

E.g. I quite well understand the subject he speaks about.
The Ineffable things are not easy to express on proper language.

That is why it looks like bullshit.
_________________________________

I think Joesus, things related with the Bible must be made clear.
There must be clear answers to the questions I asked above.

It is not that I don't understand but more that I don't care to understand. I stand firm on this: Most of his posts are what I said they are on my previous post. Some of his post are not. That's why I asked the question as to when he will stop posting the bulshit part of his posts.

[Hey Hey]

Bullshit Haiku

Some bulls shit in fields
Some bulls shit on BrainMeta
Wherever - still shit

©2007 Hey Hey

[Joesus]

The silence was kept for too long period of time.

The silence has always been kept until the mind is ready to unwrap its beliefs surrounding it.

[Enki]

It is not that I don't understand but more that I don't care to understand. I stand firm on this: Most of his posts are what I said they are on my previous post. Some of his post are not. That's why I asked the question as to when he will stop posting the bulshit part of his posts.

OK. So let him provide explanations for you.

[Enki]

Bullshit Haiku

Some bulls shit in fields
Some bulls shit on BrainMeta
Wherever - still shit

©2007 Hey Hey

Very nice indeed.

[Enki]

The silence was kept for too long period of time.

The silence has always been kept until the mind is ready to unwrap its beliefs surrounding it.

Quite interesting point Joesus.

To unwrap the invisible hypnotic spiders whirled around the head or left leg...

But this answer is unsatisfactory.

Questions must be answered, free people dislike shadow!

[Joesus]

If one is truly free there are no obstacles and all answers can be easily found to the questions one might have. You just need to ask the right questions.

[code buttons]

...a time to keep silence...

And your time fot this has come and gone long ago in this forum. Only you're so blind (by choice) you never saw your time to shut up coming or going. Your posts are usually evasive questions to answer fundamental questions; or answers that always lead to dogmatic, unscientific statements. That was allright, a year ago maybe, when I started reading your posts. But to keep hijacking this forum with your hollow, misleading rethoric time after time after time after time becomes very offensive to those of us who have followed the sequence of your posts over time. It's become an abnoxious, vicious cycle. You are a clown and belong in a circus, not here. In the end, you are only fooling yourself, and the few trollers that come across your bullshit by accident. How much more pathetic can you get?! Everything you had to say you said it a long time ago. Stop repeating yourself over and over! Reconsider the concept of a time to keep silence and apply it on yourself. Do yourself a favor and stop being the bufoon in this forum. It's getting as old as the 2000 year myth that you so much adhere to. You don't have anything to say here in this forum that has any barance on anything discussed here. Your time to keep silence has come. Use the little dignity and self-respect you may still have left in you (I hope) and leave this forum alone.

[Joesus]

You do have your own opinion and this would be relative to your perception of reality.
I really don't see how anyone can hijack a forum or how anyone can be so easily disturbed by someones postings unless they are themselves disturbed.

I do have a few questions tho your not obliged to answer.

Do you think I should be as affected by your rant as you are about my presence?
Would you like me to feel as bad about myself as you do about me?
Do you find yourself in this position with other people and would you like to change the world by having them believe in the world the way you see it or just put them someplace where you wouldn't have to be aware of them?

Tho this line of questioning may not be scientific to some it does approach the basic freedoms that are applied to religion, or the personal beliefs of the individual and how they may live their lives with freedom of expression and thought.

I find that everyone would like to believe in freedom of speech and thought as long as it doesn't invade theirs.
The border between personal thought and invasiveness sometimes become thin when a whisper can so easily throw someones own commitment to reality out of whack.

If you would like to make this scientific in relationship to the psychosis of paranoia I would say you could make a list of all those who would say things that rubbed you the wrong way, did things that rubbed you the wrong way and to what degree you felt violated. Then if you could create the perfect world what barriers you would construct to relieve yourself of these invasive conditions or what you could do for yourself to alleviate the reactionary behavior associated with the ease in which you become irritated.

I doubt if you or I could be isolated as being the authoritative model for human behavior but there are some cases where the ego becomes extreme in fighting for its own beliefs in reality and you seem a bit riled and most recently motivated to protect yours. In fact I could say that with your most recent rants that they could be compared energetically to those of a religious conviction.
But you might not see it that way.
Sometimes its good to find inner peace and silence so that you don't have to fight with your world to make it silent.
I think it would be obvious that you can't approach intelligent thinking or effectively create in your world if you're preoccupied with emotional baggage.
This is the essence of religion, the relationship of the personal with the greater personality within, the ideal you and the you that you think you are as you are evolving.
The idea has always been to remove the bugs inside rather than take the approach they did in the crusades and Spanish Inquisition even if the fanatics of that time couldn't see that.

Some just have a more difficult time in their evolution than others.