Voltaire was right: "If God did not exist, it would be necessary for us to invent him.", So let's do it. Here is my attempt. What is Yours? Options

[Culture]

...In other words you see the mind/body/spirit as one?

Until someone comes up with evidence to the contrary, yes.

Your comment, "There is a clear distinction from body and mind for me." is what Rene Descartes concluded. I do not accept his dualism. IMO, consciousness, or Spirit, is the great unifying factor.

I also happen to think that as we become more and more conscious that we are one in Spirit we will begin to understand how to unify gravity and electromagnetism--the great goal of modern physics. I happen to think that this is what Seth Lloyd and other of the new physicists are up to doing.

http://www-me.mit.edu/people/personal/slloyd.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth_Lloyd
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/lloyd/lloyd_index.html
================================================

You ask if I, "condone blind faith".

Absolutely not! I have the same feeling about irrational religions, which abhor what I call "sighted faith". Good faith, like good theory, may go beyond fact and reason, but it need never go contrary to it.

I have no problem agreeing with you when you write

...The success of an organism in the universe relies primarily upon it's ability to predict the properties of the universe and react accordingly....

Perhaps the new physicists are helping us make such conscious (spiritually-based) choices so that we need no longer be puppets dangling on the strings of our heredity and our environment--our animal instincts.

Cogito ergo sum". I think, therefore I am. One must exist in order to experience, and the fact that you experience is convincing proof you exist.

I must presume you consider yourself to be a single being - which is why you call yourself "I" instead of "we". Your body; however, is a plurality - a collection of individual elements or fundamental particles, each with its own properties and physical domain. Logically this presents a conundrum. One cannot be two and two cannot be one - it is not possible to 'be' more than a single existence, and regardless of what you hear about 'emergent properties' from scholarly pundits with alphabet soup after their names, one existence would - throughout its existence - have one set of experiences and a collection of existences would have individual sets of experience equal to the number of elements in the set.

You have been trained since birth to think you are that thing you see in the mirror. Hair, eyes, nose, skin, appendages. By rote and repetition you have developed the self image that your body is YOU. But if you cut off your arm, your arm will suddenly be over there, yet you will still experience your same identity. You will probably still have feeling in a 'phantom arm' which isn't there. Just because your arm was held onto your corpse by molecular bond didn't make it YOU. The identity you experience is that of a single element - or entity - hidden within the composition of your shell. A body is something you wear, not something you are. It does; however, seem to be a necessary tool in order for us to function and think in human terms. But thought is an experience and something must "exist" in order to experience it. It isn't possible for something to be more than (or less than) a single existence and any claim that a composite can, by some esoteric power, become a single identity isn't logical. Indeed, the pseudo science which touts the idea that thought is just a phenomenon of emergent properties within brain tissue is little more than voodoo with inflated credentials.

[Joesus]

Cogito ergo sum". I think, therefore I am. One must exist in order to experience, and the fact that you experience is convincing proof you exist.

Relative to the type of experiences one is having of themself, logic can lead one to limit themself to what they believe based on a collection of experiences, rather than the full potential of who they are.
It is not possible to experience the potential of what Self is but it is possible to experience a reflection of it.
As long as the mind doesn't settle into a single thought or collection of thoughts it is free from labeling itself as this or that.
There is a story, where God tells Moses after contemplating the name of God for several years to tell his people "I am becoming". The popular story stops short in "Tell your people I am..."

I am this, or I am that, is potentially the egoic identification with external realites of belief and perception. Based on the experience levels of conscious awareness, one may define what I am is but may not be close to what I am is.
Neti Neti, not this not that.. Taken from the Brahma Sutras it points to the essence of who you/we/I/this and that, truly is/are/isn't rather than the projections of who we think we are through the filters of belief.

I must presume you consider yourself to be a single being - which is why you call yourself "I" instead of "we".

You must be presumtiuous if you have no other options, that is always a choice.
To take your awareness outward into the manifest reality and from your point of reference in relative changing identities of your projected self you will limit your options of perception of self and of "I".

Your body; however, is a plurality - a collection of individual elements or fundamental particles, each with its own properties and physical domain. Logically this presents a conundrum.

It presents a challenge to the mind which bases its point of reference in separation but not to the mind that unites all things.
Logic is relative to states of awareness. What is logical to a 3 year old is not logical to an octenegarian.
Experience is relative to states of consciousness. Each state of consciousness is distinct subjectively and objectively. The inner experience and the metabolic rate are different in Waking, Dreaming, Sleeping as is the inner and outer experience of the Self and the world in expanded states of consciousness beyond waking dreaming and sleeping.

One cannot be two and two cannot be one - it is not possible to 'be' more than a single existence,

Jn 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Jn 10:30 I and my Father are one.

In a lesser state of awareness than Union, conscious awareness doesn't accept witnessing ones self as a conscious experience which extends itself beyond the constraints of the physical body and the individual experience.
Being in more than one place or experience at a time is impossible to the mind that is stuck to its identification with the body and it's limited single experience and identity.

regardless of what you hear about 'emergent properties' from scholarly pundits with alphabet soup after their names, one existence would - throughout its existence - have one set of experiences and a collection of existences would have individual sets of experience equal to the number of elements in the set.

If you stare at your middle finger long enough you will not be aware of the rest of the hand as you lose sight of your Self and narrow your vision to the aging patterns that make up the finger print of the individual finger.


So you believe making choices is abnormal....

[Lindsay]

Joesus and Culture: Lots of interesting stuff here. Am I correct in assuming that at least there are three of us who share a common faith that we are human and spiritual beings. I say this with all due respect for my mental and physical nature. It would be interesting to know how many posters here also feel this way.

BTW, Joesus, culture has shared with us somewhat of what his "faith" is. What about yours?

[Culture]

I maintain that acting upon blind faith, and therefore acting upon most aspects of most religions, is abnormal human behaviour and perhaps an unfortunate side-effect of complex cultural constructions in social species such as our own.

So you believe that making choices is abnormal...

Not at all. You make decisions based on reason and not on "blind faith"

[Joesus]

Not at all. You make decisions based on reason and not on "blind faith"

That is one approach however some decisions/choices are made from the heart where the outcome is anticipated but not known. This type of Blind faith is Trust in something greater than the beliefs in suffering and separation from the absolute Self.
In the story of Jesus and his arrest in the garden of Gethsemane, he told his disciples of the things to come that were to affect each one of them personally but more importantly the direction of human belief for the next 2000+ years.
He told his disciples that he would no longer be with them hinting to the effect of his crucifixion and death.

Jesus had faith but it was not faith alone that he made decisions, it was also with the living experience of the union he had with God and the absolute.
Religious beliefs have their roots in the reality that everyone has within them a living connection to the source of all existence. The only reason people ignore it is because they choose to put their attention on the outward manifestations of the Self rather than the creator/Self within.
The greatest desire in humanity is for fulfillment but the ego keeps translating relative happiness in series of events as the road to fulfillment and is addicted to creating more transitory moments of happiness.
This type of action is self defeating for there is nothing permanent about creating illusions of happiness and expecting to be permanently uplifted from duality and separation in awareness from our inner being.

Joseph Campbell had a saying he used often, "Follow your Bliss"
The meaning was to follow that which expands conscious awareness permanently, not what tittilates the senses in brief moments of sensory pleasure.
Although it may be more satisfying to not compromise ones self and personal desire by creating a lifestyle that brings many moments of self gratifying experiences, if one lives only for relative happiness based on external projections one may never know the inner self or the freedom and joy that exists in the awareness that goes beyond any relative experience that comes and goes on the road to the grave.

Those that have living faith may make choices that are uncomfortable and challenge the ego's identification with the relative world but the outcome is far greater than the ones created from fear to protect what little understanding one has of ones self.
If you live in a cave and know nothing else your decisions may be made from a place that does not include anything other than what you have experienced in the cave.
You miss so much of the world when you lock yourself in a belief of who you are and what it means to be human in terms that limit potential

If you ever listen to the parents of children who have been warned about the world and what is in it you will hear generations of programs being passed down from one generation to another,
Parents pass on rules that they were given and ignored and yet they still pass on those rules and inevitably their children will ignore those rules to follow a greater desire within themselves to express and experience who they are rather than who they have been told to be.
Faith that there is more to life than what we are told leads the seeker to break rules and set out into unknown territory. Faith in the experience of something greater than ones own beliefs and experiences leaves the mind open to surrender ones limits to recieve more.

Those that hide in their personal cave cannot understand nor conceive of any reality other than the cave and so they believe those that leave the cave do so blindly and without reverence to popular belief and scientific reason.
If Columbus had truly believed in the science of the day he would have never sought a route to the indies for fear of falling off the edge of the flat world. His faith in something greater than popular belief broke the barriers to a stagnating culture that made decisions based on reason that was not only false but perpetuated out of ignorance and fear.
Faith is driven by love not reason and love is greater than any reason and always stands even in the shadows of choice that is driven by the illusions of fear.
Faith is based on what is real.
Reason from any state of awareness other than Union is based on illusions of the mind and projections of reality.

[Lindsay]

....Jesus had faith but it was not faith alone that he made decisions, it was also with the living experience of the union he had with God and the absolute...

... Joseph Campbell had a saying he used often, "Follow your Bliss"
The meaning was to follow that which expands conscious awareness permanently, not what tittilates the senses in brief moments of sensory pleasure....

...Those that have living faith ...

I assume that you write about a loving, working, and, therefore, practical faith. If so, that is okay by me. This is the kind about which James, the brother Jesus wrote. And surely James was of the same mind as Jesus, his brother?

Keep in mind that James 1: 2-8 writes about the kind of faith that is based on love-based wisdom, which surely must be based on true knowledge and reason. In James 1: 19-27, James relates faith to work, actions.

FAITH ALONE?
With all do respect to Martin Luther, as a reformer--a man of many faults, one of them anti-semiticism--"FAITH ALONE" as he wrote, is a very unwise and dangerous quality.
The Nazis had faith, but without love and wisdom it was irrational and produced totally evil works.

[Joesus]

Faith can be applied to anything, music, science, art or God but in the mind that has not experienced the supreme being faith is going to be projected outward on an idea, and in the evolution of changing experiences and ideas, that faith is going to be reattached to whatever the mind attaches itself to in belief.
When Faith is anchored in the awareness and experience of the supreme being it is them applied to service in surrender to the mind in union with the desires of God.

[Lindsay]

....the mind in union with the desires of God.

Joesus, what kind of theist are you? Do you think of "God" as a person who has "desires" and a "will".

I am serous when I ask: If God is a person, how comes "he" refuses to chat with us here on this thread? What an opportunity to tell us what he wills for us.

BTW, I will be away for a couple of days. I am doing a wedding away from here for a very fine young couple. Both are very bright teachers. One is a Christian and the other a Muslim.

[Joesus]

....the mind in union with the desires of God.

Joesus, what kind of theist are you? Do you think of "God" as a person who has "desires" and a "will".

I am serous when I ask: If God is a person, how comes "he" refuses to chat with us here on this thread? What an opportunity to tell us what he wills for us.

BTW, I will be away for a couple of days. I am doing a wedding away from here for a very fine young couple. Both are very bright teachers. One is a Christian and the other a Muslim.

The ole question: IF God is real why doesn't he..why isn't he...why why why...


Jn 10:30 I and my Father are one.


In unity, in the experience of knowing the supreme being, The Absolute lives in every thought feeling and action. Every desire, every thought, every action is in perfect alignment with the advancement of experience and immersion into expanding thought and expanding awareness of God/Self/Absolute.
Every action leads to greater awareness of Self/God/The absolute one.
Gods desire is your desire. Your desire is God's desire.
God is not a person but you as the manifest personality are a reflection of a multidimensional facet of a supreme diamond.
If you want to call me a theist call me the supreme theist. God cannot be bound to anyones designs on what God wants you to do or be in surrender and service. There are no rules or limits to the human experience other than those that are self imposed and that includes imagining the limitless.

[AdonisBlue]

I´m sorry, but I find it truly embarrassing that the question of the existence of god(s) is being even considered in the 21st Century.

[Joesus]

I´m sorry, but I find it truly embarrassing that the question of the existence of god(s) is being even considered in the 21st Century.

Why is that?

[rhymer]

I´m sorry, but I find it truly embarrassing that the question of the existence of god(s) is being even considered in the 21st Century.

There is no sense in feeling embarrassed.
Surprised maybe, and possibly disappointed, but not embarassed.

One only needs to realise that different people have different needs.
Some people will believe in Gods (or use them to name unknowns) for many centuries to go.

And, one ought to remember that every individual should respect the right of every other individual to have their own beliefs (belief = non-necessarily-true).
The only rider comes into play when such beliefs unfairly, or unjustifiably affect other people in a negative way.

[Joesus]

The only rider comes into play when such beliefs unfairly, or unjustifiably affect other people in a negative way.

Even that is a belief..

[rhymer]

The only rider comes into play when such beliefs unfairly, or unjustifiably affect other people in a negative way.

Even that is a belief..

And even that is no more than a belief!

But do you agree that it is a reasonable belief?

[Joesus]

And even that is no more than a belief!

But do you agree that it is a reasonable belief?

I think the statement is too vague and doesn't identify anything.
One mans irritation is another mans inspiration.
I personally don't believe in victims, I also believe everything is connected to each person that experiences the event and helps to bring the event into manifestaion.
So what is negative and what is unfair?
Everything being relative to perception and perception being influenced by belief I think you can make a statement to what is reasonable in your own terms of understanding but not to another or to make any assumptions to what anyone will do, or feel or think about anything, and expect everyone to agree.

[Lindsay]

...God is not a person but you as the manifest personality are a reflection of a multidimensional facet of a supreme diamond. If you want to call me a theist call me the supreme theist.

God cannot be bound to anyones designs on what God wants you to do or be in surrender and service. There are no rules or limits to the human experience other than those that are self imposed and that includes imagining the limitless.

Your words makes sense to me. They approximate what I mean when I call myself a unitheist.

[Lindsay]

...The only rider comes into play when such beliefs unfairly, or unjustifiably affect other people in a negative way.

Well said, Rhymer. I love circles which, like love-circles, are totally-inclusive.

[Lindsay]

...but not to...expect everyone to agree.

I may not expect everyone to agree, but I hope that we can all agree to disagree, agreeably.

[Joesus]

...but not to...expect everyone to agree.

I may not expect everyone to agree, but I hope that we can all agree to disagree, agreeably.

Why not just accept the diversity in difference and multiplicity of God rather than letting your judgment project itself in a personal desire that is not going to be fulfilled? As long as your awareness is split between the two realities of belief that you carry about God in its multidimensional being and what God could look like then you'll keep looking away from reality and pointing to the underlying hopes and dreams that are vying for control in the mind due to the inability to fully merge yourself and your experience into the reality of God in terms that are not conditioned by personal beliefs and desires.
I mean, its fine to wish for world peace and all but there is a function to the manifest.

Man is created in Gods image. God being imageless is not without the images of potential. Humanity in its awakening to itself is experiencing its personal projections of reality. Any ideas that clash must show themselves in the diverse expression of dreams and the attachment to dreams by arguing both agreeably and even to the extent of grasping to attachments in the anger that is projected on each other so Union can manifest itself, or rise out of the chaos.
The fact of this reality is that it is already happening and has happened for as long as history can remember. The enlightened awaken to God in the chaos and peace prevails in the stillness that underlies all activity. The mind then rises above the manifest stage of mixing projections rather than stagnating in the whirlpool.

The splinter groups that find commonality and segregate themselves from the differences in belief may maintain a facade of composure as long as no outside of the box ideas come to ruffle the waters of attachment, but... it's inevitable as long as one clings to any image of God that is personally designed, to mix with that level of reality. There is the level of projection that is like standing in the "Projections are Us" store and the mind can entertain itself for as long as it wants to remain in the store.

There is a saying, "Heal the self and you Heal the world." If you can unite the outside manifest with the inner potential or the absolute, all forms are of the formless and all forms of expression are divine.

Unconditional acceptance of reality gives one more freedom to live by living without fear and without compromise of ones desires. You can have everything you desire if you allow the desires of others to be fulfilled and if you don't like what someone else desires you will limit yourself in the reflections of others.

Desire is fullfilled easily if there is no conflict in the belief that the adversary (condition) is just around the corner.

Jesus didn't say I hope you can stand and see, He said stand and see, Live and be healed. Those that were not able to grasp the absolute unconditional reality of God's power neither saw his miracles nor saw him.

As I said before beliefs being judged as reasonable or not are still beliefs, beliefs change and are the attention of ones awareness attaching itself to the projected images of God.

[Lindsay]

...Why not just accept the diversity in difference and multiplicity of God rather than letting your judgment project itself in a personal desire that is not going to be fulfilled?

I am totally unaware of being judgemental and letting my negative "judgement project". What did I write which gives anyone this negative impression? My desire is to always project that I am open to accept all kinds of moral and loving diversity.

Also, my desire is to be at one with and in GØD. My will is to vibrate in harmony with and, therefore be in unity with GØD. I want there to be no resistance, no chaos, only complete and loving harmony. I also agree that as I

...unite the outside manifest with the inner potential or the absolute, all forms are of the formless and all forms of expression are divine.

IN addition: that

Unconditional acceptance of reality gives one more freedom to live by living without fear and without compromise of ones desires. You can have everything you desire if you allow the desires of others to be fulfilled and if you don't like what someone else desires you will limit yourself in the reflections of others.

I trust I have made my positive, non-judgemental, intention clear.

[Joesus]

As Yoda once said. "There is no try...Only do."

Postive intentions are always relative to states of awareness.

I am totally unaware of being judgemental and letting my negative "judgement project".

That is normal. People are not able to teach themselves. From a place of experience, one can only rearrange ideas of belief. One must open themselves to that which is greater than their current experience, otherwise they make statements to truths that are relevant to the poition of relative memory and limits created by self identity. Being open some of the time is not an option to constant expansion.

What did I write which gives anyone this negative impression?

The impression is not a negative impression but the obvious is only missed by your identification with what you call loving and good and how you separate yourself from all other.
It shows in all of your posts.

My desire is to always project that I am open to accept all kinds of moral and loving diversity.

I think you have been stating this quite clearly. If you could only let go of your division in God and evil and come to accept it all.
Morality comes naturally when one rises above judgment and attachment. All other moral standards are created artificially from the relative beliefs and judgments of righteousness, the idea of what is God and where is God.
God is in everything. Everything is of God.
So what are you willing to accept.
By the way acceptance and like are two very different things.

[Lindsay]

... People are not able to teach themselves.

Are you stating this as some kind of an absolute? That we can only teach one another? Then you add

From a place of experience, one can only rearrange ideas of belief.

If this is so, what ideas are you currently rearranging?

Meanwhile, it appears that you are trying to teach me something

If you could only let go of your division in God and evil and come to accept it all.

I assure you that decades ago, on my own, I accepted the idea that evil is simply "good in the making". I am not a dualist. To make this clear I called myself a unitheist. You say that

God is in everything. Everything is of God.

I quite agree.

[Joesus]

Are you stating this as some kind of an absolute? That we can only teach one another?

You can open yourself to more by letting go of what you know. If you make yourself available to experience that is greater than your own you will draw towards you those that have experience that you have not yet had. In this way you will allow yourself to accept more than you have experienced.
When the student is ready the teacher will appear.

If this is so, what ideas are you currently rearranging?

I focus on the absolute not on rearranging relative ideas.
Learning has become a process of adding to, much different than that of expanding conscious awareness where what is perceived as manifest reality is continually witnessed and expanded into omniscience rather than relative knowledge. Where illusion is replaced by the permanence of the unbounded Self.

Meanwhile, it appears that you are trying to teach me something.

As I said: when the student is ready the teacher will appear.
I think you will judge everything and measure its worth against what you have already decided is real before accepting anything I would have to offer.
No one can try to teach anyone anything. The manifest is a reflection of God. You've already seen me as something you must decide is worthy of acceptance. You may intellectually accept God in all things but I'll bet you will decide to give your attention to those things that you believe have more God in them than those things that have less God in them.

If you learn something out of all this are you going to give me the credit?

I assure you that decades ago, on my own, I accepted the idea that evil is simply "good in the making". I am not a dualist. To make this clear I called myself a unitheist.

There is no such thing as evil. You've acepted a fantasy through your choice to make it real.
You've labeled evil as an idea where God isn't complete/present/mature etc.
You can call/label yourself any way you want, that is what the ego does, label itself, and everything else. That is the nature of duality as created by a dualist.

[rhymer]

quote "I focus on the absolute not on rearranging relative ideas".

Can you please define your meaning of the word absolute?

[Joesus]

Can you please define your meaning of the word absolute?

That would be impossible, there is no defining that which cannot be defined.

[rhymer]

So, you don't know on what you are focussing?

[Joesus]

Can a person focus their awareness on God when God is all around them, and beyond human sense perception?

[Joesus]

what is beyond the human senses?

Certain levels of conscious awareness cannot be contained within the human experience tho the human experience is linked to Consciousness and is not separate from any part of consciousness. That wihich is known to the soul before entering the body is often forgotten as the senses are turned towards the external manifestations of belief and programming.
Awareness that transcends the human experience is that awareness that is reached when the soul ascends the human body. Tho an ascended master can remanifest the body after ascension there is no motivating factor to leave the unbounded to bind oneself to the flesh and the human experience after ascending it unless to serve in the capacity of further expansion of awareness.
This is the natural flow of evolution to expand experience and awareness which is why we evolve and make the choice to evolve.

how can any belief/concept of God be thought/known/realized....if not first sensed to be a potentiality?

As I said there is nothing about consciousness that is not connected to the manifest tho the potential of the manifest cannot be contained the intimate reality of consciousness to the manifest is always present. One need only turn their attention towards it to experience a taste of that connection.
In regards to your question I was addressing the senses that are turned outward rather than inward. If you turn away from something and ignore it long enough it dissapears from the senses awareness.

do you not focus your attention upon what you believe stillness to be...and in so doing...manifest this belief into your awareness?

Do I? or are you speaking in general terms?
At first I looked for what I thought I might find but it didn't fit within the terms of my conditions or expectations. When discovered it was beyond anything I could hope to contain it with. You look for an end and there is no end, you look for a consistency and there is no consistency other than its continuance of presence.
I have found that there are those who thru belief imagine the absolute and study the works of those who discribe it but do not anchor it into the awareness by meditating on it. They put it in their pocket with other objects of belief and those people do not resonate with the absolute as do those who put their awareness on it continually and bring it outward into the manifest.

what can be made conscious without sensiing and thought?

anything can seemingly be made into anything through intense thought. Consciousness exists regardless of sensory perception or thought.

[Lindsay]

Can you please define your meaning of the word absolute?

Rhymer and Dinah, with his

I, JOESUS, focus on the absolute not on rearranging relative ideas.

do you have the feeling that Joesus is playing the I-KNOW-MORE-THAN-YOU-DO kind of game with all of us?

OK, Joesus, I write as a student who had been ready for decades, so do your stuff!!!

[Joesus]

do you have the feeling that Joesus is playing the I-KNOW-MORE-THAN-YOU-DO kind of game with all of us.

"Follow your feelings Luke..They will lead you to the power of the dark side of the Force," -Darth Vader-