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> PNEUMATHERAPY--Based on "pneumatology"--means using the spirit to help heal oneself, Dr. James Braid ( 1795-1860) tried to introduce "monoideism"
Lindsay
post Jul 22, 2006, 12:43 PM
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Pneumatherapy. Based on pneumatology--a branch of metaphysics of the 16th. Century--pneumatherapy is a form of self-hypnosis, but one without the hocus pocus.

HISTORY OF HYPNOSIS
====================
The human ability to go in and out of the trance state has been part of our human nature since the dawn of consciousness. The trance phenomenon can be found in all forms of worship and the rituals of religion. Also, great artists and inventors in science have all made, and still make, use of this phenomenon.

The modern word 'hypnosis' was not invented until 1843. The inventor was Dr. James Braid, a Scottish physician and surgeon practicing in Manchester, England, who later admitted that it was actually a misnomer. He then tried, and failed, to get people to call it "monoideism"--the ability to keep ones mind focused on one idea, as if in a trance.

Because of his interest in science, he coined the word--based on 'hypnos', the Greek for sleep, to get it away from its association with superstition and magic.

I have been a student of hypnosis since the late 1940's when I did some undergraduate studies in psychology.

Because I believe the ability to use and benefit from the trance state is rooted in who we are, spiritually (pneumatologically), I prefer to call what I do 'pneumatherapy'.

The following is good information about what it is, and is not.

http://www.danielolson.com/hypnosis/hypnosis_history.html

As I said in the thread on 'hypnosis': Like many words, 'hypnosis', now, has too much baggage--too much of the idea of hocus pocus and manipulation about it. Furthermore, it doesn't even come close to describing the whole trance-like phenomenon it was intended to describe when it was first coined by Dr. James Braid, in 1843, to replace 'mesmerism' and "yogism'.

Check out http://www.fife.50megs.com/james-braid.htm and, interestingly, you will out find that even Braid realized his error. For awhile, it was named Braidism. As I said, it was then he tried to introduce the word 'monoideism'--the ability to keep ones mind on one idea, to be focused, or single-minded.

PERHAPS WE COULD USE GNOSIS--LEADING TO WISDOM, WHICH ARISES IN THE HUMAN SPIRIT, OR PNEUMA

'Gnosis'. My World Book Dictionary defines it as 1. knowledge. 2. a special knowledge of spiritual things, hnece its connection with spiritual things. It is from New Latin and Greek gnosis. It also carries the idea of investigating all things to gain knowledge without being dependent on blind faith, or revelation.

I offer the state of 'gnosis' as meaning a self-induced--state of conscious awareness. One in which we can at least begin to investigate and get to know what it means to be a fully functioning--physically, mentally and spiritually--human being. In our search for socially useful knowledge and for some of the answers to the mysteries of life I see great value in having people involved, who are not only great scientists such as Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Planck, Whitehead, Jung, James, Faraday, Chardin and the like, but, also, all people of great faith, hope and love.

BTW, people of great faith, hope and love do not necessarily need to be heavily involved with organized religion--certainly not the obscurantist kind. The obscurantist kind of religion is what Lenin had in mind when he described it as "the opiate" of the people. Freud, in his book, The Future of an Illusion" described religion as "the universal neurosis". The bishops of religions who call of their their followers to "pray, pay and obey", and to believe in the one, only, universal, true and revealed faith, without question, are hypnotists of the worst kind.

Following the Council of Nicea, called by the autocratic emperor, Constantine, in 325 CE, obscurantist bishops were the ones who called for the brutal suppression of the first gnostics. And keep in mind that this period of suppression was followed by that awful time known as the Dark Ages. In my opinion, the suppression of gnosticism, by the "one true church", aided an abetted by an autocrat and pagan emperor, held back what we now call scientific discoveries. Ironically, it also contributed to the fall of Rome and hastened the coming of the Dark Ages.

QUOTE
The phrase the Dark Ages (or Dark Age) is most commonly known in relation to the European Early Middle Ages (from about A.D. 476 to about 1000).

This concept of a "Dark Age" was first created by Italian humanists and was originally intended as a sweeping criticism of the character of Late Latin literature. Later historians expanded the term to include not only the lack of Latin literature, but a lack of contemporary written history and material cultural achievements in general. Popular culture has further expanded on the term as a vehicle to depict the Middle Ages as a time of backwardness, extending its pejorative use and expanding its scope. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages
=================================
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maximus242
post Jul 22, 2006, 12:54 PM
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2. A special knowlege of spiritual things.

Hypnosis isnt really spiritual, you could however hypnotise someone to have a spiritual experience LOL.
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Lindsay
post Jul 22, 2006, 08:53 PM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Jul 22, 12:54 PM) *

...Hypnosis isnt really spiritual, you could however hypnotise someone to have a spiritual experience LOL.
I should have mentioned--and this is what convinced even Braid, the first to use the term, it was not a good one--'hypnosis' is a master telling you to fall asleep...deep asleep. All modern writers, serious about hypnosis, use a lot of words telling readers about what hypnosis is not.

We don't have this problem with 'gnosis', which is simply all about us waking up and taking personal responsibility for who we are and who we want to be, in the now. In John 8:32 Jesus' uses the famous words, "...you will know the truth and the truth will set you free."

There is a mountain of material on gnosis and gnosticism on the web.

http://www.gnosis.org/
http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/library.html
http://www.gnosis.org/gnosticview.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosis
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pave
post Jul 23, 2006, 06:49 AM
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Seems to me that adding a "spiritual" component to the business of communicating with unconscious processes adds even more baggage to this communcative methodology (hypnosis).

That this elelment of "spirit" may or may not exist is irrelevent to getting satisfactory results through some or other "hypnotic" process.

As to such a slight name change: I have to wonder who would benefit as a result.

While I appreciate Lindsay's desire for efficiencies-in-descriptions, I also wonder if the distinctions would be lost on most.

Sooner, rather than later, someone's going to respond with: "Aren't we really talkin' here about 'hypnosis'"?
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mike-1
post Jul 23, 2006, 07:04 AM
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QUOTE(pave @ Jul 23, 10:49 AM) *


Sooner, rather than later, someone's going to respond with: "Aren't we really talkin' here about 'hypnosis'"?



Well it didn't take long pave .. about 14 minutes as per my count rolleyes.gif


PS .. bonjour monsieur pave .. I wonder when A-J will show up.
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pave
post Jul 23, 2006, 08:07 AM
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Hi mike!

I am enjoying these threads and the participants very much.

As to AJ showing up: sooner is better than later! smile.gif
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maximus242
post Jul 23, 2006, 10:22 AM
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mm in a way the word hypnosis has been replaced, with Clinical Hypnosis; using hypnosis for medical purposes.
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mike-1
post Jul 23, 2006, 11:36 AM
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QUOTE(pave @ Jul 23, 12:07 PM) *

Hi mike!

I am enjoying these threads and the participants very much.

As to AJ showing up: sooner is better than later! smile.gif


Yes pave this seems to be an interesting site.

As to A-J , now that TWB is essentially out of business, I have no way of reaching him.
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Lindsay
post Jul 23, 2006, 01:41 PM
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Pardon the double entry!
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Lindsay
post Jul 23, 2006, 02:00 PM
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QUOTE(pave @ Jul 23, 06:49 AM) *

Seems to me that adding a "spiritual" component to the business of communicating with unconscious processes adds even more baggage to this communcative methodology (hypnosis).
Okay, in order to clarify what we truly mean, we need to dialogue about 'hypnosis' 'spiritual' and related subjects.

Check out http://messagenet.com/myths/bios/hypnos.html#iliad
Hypnos
* Sleep - the Twin Brother of Death

Hypnos enters the sleep of mortals and, at the bidding of the Olympians, gives them dreams of foolishness or inspiration, depending on the individual and their divine protectors or enemies.

Hypnos, the god, is mentioned in the Iliad.

===============================================
Pave, I take your following comments are comments, not just objections:
QUOTE
That this elelment of "spirit" may, or may not, exist is irrelevent to getting satisfactory results through some or other "hypnotic" process.

As to such a slight name change: I have to wonder who would benefit as a result.

While I appreciate Lindsay's desire for efficiencies-in-descriptions, I also wonder if the distinctions would be lost on most.


Then you ask:
QUOTE

Sooner, rather than later, someone's going to respond with: "Aren't we really talkin', here, about 'hypnosis'"?


To which I would respond: "Thanks! for at least responding with an intelligent question, even if it is slightly rhetorical.

Now, may I ask you the following questions:
1) What do you think I mean by 'hypnosis' and 'gnosis'?
2) What is your definition of 'hypnosis'? Gnosis?
3) What comes to your mind when you hear words like 'gnosis' and the 'gnostics'?
4) Spirituality. What do you think of when you hear the term 'spiritual'? How does it differ from being 'mental' or 'material'?
5) Is it possible for human beings to be mental and physical beings, without being spiritual beings?
6) Is it possible for animal beings to be spiritual beings?

And there is more, much more.
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maximus242
post Jul 23, 2006, 02:03 PM
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I think the reason for the objection to the spiritual aspect is because hypnosis is already wrongly associated in a number of pseudo fields such as, Astral Projection, Remote Viewing, Past Life Regression, Psychic Enchancement, Visiting Angel "Guides", Connecting with the dead, Seeing the future and many more. When you try to have hypnosis taken seriously, especially for its wonderful medical applications, the last thing you want is for it to be associated with spirituality, because no one takes it seriously.
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pave
post Jul 23, 2006, 04:49 PM
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I have had discussions on these and other matters with Lindsay in a different environment, and I believe he knows me to be one who does not stir up controversy for effect.

"Hypnosis" - the way I practice it - is about communicating with another in order to achieve a well-formed outcome.

As such, I incorporate these communications-skills into my work. These are the skills as demonstrated by Milton and as taught by the NLP community.

NLP interventions and the structure of hypnosis are seperate bodies of knowledge. A useful explanation of the differences may be that NLP can be represented by the rubber that hits the road whereas Hypnosis is the grease that keeps it all running smoothly.

My participation on the NLP and Hypnosis threads is in order to offer simplification and clarification.

However, since Lindsay started this particular thread, I will respond to his comments.

For me, "gnosis" is a new term. "Agnostic", though, I understand as a description of one who chooses to represent themselves and their spirituality as part of a whole - the Universe, so to speak.

For me, "spiritual" implies another element of experience that is usually well out of conscious awareness, but that may still be tapped by some means or other. I appreciate that, for some, this contention is a non-starter. Perhaps the concepts of consciousness and an unconscious-mind are more than plenty.

For me, whether a person is embodied with spiritual elements may be less important in real-time than those elements of conciousness (including an unconscious mind). This, as the important work of development is still being carried out with the materials we have at hand. Those being: our conscious and unconscious resources.

As to the subject of the thread: I would be delighted were we to drop the labels entirely and deal with, instead, Effective Communications.

When I teach broadcasters to be more effective communicators through an electronic medium, I use a lot of jargon and relative terms. "Hypnosis", however, ain't one of 'em. It scares the newbies! smile.gif

Yet, I am teaching MILTON-Model distinctions and violations..... right out of the books. Books, btw, written by the NLP-gang! smile.gif
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maximus242
post Jul 23, 2006, 04:53 PM
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What im talking about isnt what Gnosis means to one person, or to well informed individuals but to what the average joe will think. People who already know how hypnosis works without the BS arent the ones with the baggage, the public is, what im talking about is how does the average person look at something which means spirituality? Most associate it with things like heaven, angels, ascention ect. How will they take this new word for hypnosis?
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Lindsay
post Jul 23, 2006, 05:06 PM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Jul 23, 02:03 PM) *

I think the reason for the objection to the spiritual aspect is because hypnosis is already wrongly associated... the last thing you want is for it to be associated with spirituality, because no one takes it seriously.
Max, what you say is so true. However, what, otherwise, can one do?

BTW, Max, because I value your comments, if I may, I insist smile.gif that you comment, further, on this, okay? laugh.gif What do you, really, mean by, "be associated with spirituality" and that no one takes it seriously? I take spirituality, seriously. Don't you?

Pave, how about you? Do you take spirituality, seriously? Or, not?

How do you define "spirit"?
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maximus242
post Jul 23, 2006, 05:15 PM
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Lindsay, if it were not for Milton Ericksons work, many people would of been needlessly drugged. The people who do not take it seriously are doctors, the same people who can help to make it benifit the most people. This is the same problem acupuncture is going through, too much talk about Qi and Chi, doctors dont take them seriously when they sound spiritual.
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Lindsay
post Jul 23, 2006, 05:36 PM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Jul 23, 05:15 PM) *

Lindsay, if it were not for Milton Erickson's work...
Max, tell us more about what you know about Dr. Milton Erickson. Did he say anything about the use of drugs to control mental patients?
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pave
post Jul 23, 2006, 07:34 PM
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As Lindsay already knows, I am satisfied that there is a "spiritual" component to a human. One which I can't quantify or qualify. It's a personal thing, y' know?

However, as a practitioner of NLP/Hypnosis, I am compelled to meet my client at their own model-of-the-world.

This means: if they believe they have a spiritual element, I am compelled to acknowledge and integrate that into the work we do together, particularly when working at the level of some beliefs and values.

If they don't - I don't. Besides, to do otherwise is cult-work..... and there are enough of them! Just look in the phone-book under: Religions. smile.gif

Meanwhile, during my studies, I was required to learn Milton's goodies and to replicate them. This exercise was, as much, about learning the patterns-of-language - and the internally-generated, sensory experiences these patterns developed in a client - that Milton employed, as it was about learning the specific metaphors he used with his clients..... of which there are hundreds. Great ones, too!

Further, I note maximus' distinction of "clinical hypnosis". Although, perhaps, a more-useful term in attempting to get across the validity of the process to the public, it may also have some embedded limitations.

Since, to my mind, "hypnosis" is more about excellence-in-communicating rather than the inductions of some kind of goofy trance-states, the areas in which this kind of efficient and influential communications can be applied are limitless.

(I have done full-day seminars on how to use these models in broadcast and broadcast advertising, but that may be fodder for another cannon.... elsewhere and at another time.) smile.gif
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maximus242
post Jul 24, 2006, 09:20 AM
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QUOTE(Lindsay @ Jul 23, 07:36 PM) *

QUOTE(maximus242 @ Jul 23, 05:15 PM) *

Lindsay, if it were not for Milton Erickson's work...
Max, tell us more about what you know about Dr. Milton Erickson. Did he say anything about the use of drugs to control mental patients?


He replaced the use of many drugs with hypnosis, many patients who were almost getting overdosed on morphine to control the pain have had the pain be greatly relieved through hypnosis to a degree that is greater than various drugs, he not only increased the amount of pain being relieved but saved patients from taking high doses of dangerous drugs.
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Lindsay
post Jul 24, 2006, 01:13 PM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Jul 24, 09:20 AM) *

He (MHE) replaced the use of many drugs with hypnosis...he not only increased the amount of pain being relieved but saved patients from taking high doses of dangerous drugs.
IMO, MHE practiced a kind of "faith" healing. I am also comfortable with 'pneumatherpy'--healing originating in the human spirit--and KNOWsis (gnosis)--healing originating in knowledge of what is going on in oneself.

Just today, using the phone as a medium, I spent some time with a new person who phoned me for counsel. She was referred to me by a friend of hers, who knows me.

Here she is now, at 70, still burdened with guilt, simply because she can't forgive her parents, long since gone. Her father abused her, sexually. He made her into a victim of a pedophilia ring made of highly qualified professionals. In addition, her mother was spiritually abusive to her.

She said: "I have been told that I need to love and forgive my parents. But I can't...What they did to me was...horrible!!!"

OVER THE PHONE, I DESCRIBED TO HER THE RED, YELLOW AND BLUE technique for going into the alpha state and ready to receive suggestons.
=====================================================
For the next while, I spent some time explaining to her that love and forgiveness do not, necessarily, include sentimentality involving the raw emotions.

I told her: "You do not have to like your parents, sentimentally. Certainly, you are not expected to accept that what they did to you is okay. What you need to accept is this: Perhaps, you paarents were as *&^%$ screwed up then as you are now. They did what they did to you because someone had done it to them, before. Now, it is up to you to break the cycle."

To make a long story, short, she said: "This experience of going back and seeing things in a new way has lifted such a burden of guilt off my shoulders."

In my opinion, she came to KNOWsis.
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Rick
post Jul 24, 2006, 01:42 PM
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It's always good to be able to help people.
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Lindsay
post Jul 24, 2006, 02:50 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Jul 24, 01:42 PM) *

It's always good to be able to help people.
Rick, keep in mind that the Family Life Foundation is made up, entirely, of volunteers. There is no direct fee for counseling. Because we are a registered charity, people who contribute to the FLF will get a receipt for a tax credit. BTW, we encourage bartering.
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pave
post Jul 25, 2006, 07:36 AM
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One of the key elements about NLP/Hypnosis that melted my brain many years ago was the capacity people have for rewriting their own histories!

Now, please appreciate that this is a metaphor that represents the capacity for people to reconsider their histories in new and more powerfully resourceful ways.

The result - when done well and with specificity - is that a person's responses to their partially perceived/partially accurate memories changes! They become more resurceful in present and future times!

The unresourceful and not-particularly-useful responses that people have to parts of their histories cannot be denied.... repressed, maybe. But, that's hardly an ideal position.

That NLP - through Milton, Satir, Perls and others - has come up with applicable strategies to accomplish these outcomes is extraordinary.

People may paraphrase that "I'd love to change my mind about this or that issue - if only I knew how!"

But, intellect, awareness, philosophy and good intentions do not a successful strategy make. smile.gif
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maximus242
post Jul 25, 2006, 09:44 AM
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In truth, those who say the past is the past are incorrect. The past is but memories-memories can be altered, the past can be changed.
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Lindsay
post Jul 25, 2006, 10:05 AM
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QUOTE(maximus242 @ Jul 25, 09:44 AM) *

In truth, those who say the past is the past are incorrect. The past is but memories-memories can be altered, the past can be changed.
Good point, Max. I do not remember if I made it up, or if I read the following, somewhere. I do remember using it in sermons I gave involoving the topic of time: Time is a dimension. Like every dimension, time does not pass; we pass through it.

I suppose time, like space, is necessary so that everything does not all happen at once and at one point.
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OnlyNow
post Jul 25, 2006, 10:21 AM
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If we're going to retire a word, why on earth would we replace it with something beginning with a silent "g"? How 'bout dropping the "g" or better yet, starting from scratch with a whole new word?
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Rick
post Jul 25, 2006, 11:05 AM
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QUOTE(Lindsay @ Jul 25, 11:05 AM) *
... Time is a dimension. Like every dimension, time does not pass; we pass through it. ...

That's a common misperception, and the basis for the Calvinist error. If time were a dimension, then Calvin would be right, the past and future would exist immutably. Predestination would be a correct dogma and free will would not exist.

In reality, time is not a physical dimension. The past and future do not exist. There is only now. We have memories and records of the past, archeological evidence and history texts. The future will be what we make it. It is not pre-ordained.

The mathematics of Einstein's theory of relativity treat time as if it were a dimension, similar to the three spatial dimensions, but that is only a mathematical model. In any model of physics, the variable "t" (time) can be replaced with an equivalent expression using energy. For example, kinetic energy is expressed as E = mv^2, and velocity is expressed v = d/t. Solve those two forumlas for t and substitute that expression for t wherever it occurs in physics. Time then disappears from the equations. Nobody does this, of course, because the resulting formulas are so cumbersome as to be unusable. However, it shows that time is a computational convenience, not a physical dimension.

For more information on the correctness of my view see A World Without Time: The Forgotten Legacy of Godel and Einstein.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/046509293...glance&n=283155
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pave
post Jul 25, 2006, 03:33 PM
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For practical (useful) purposes, "Time" is a subjective experience.

As such, when a person's "time" includes known and unknown memories, known and unknown learnings and conclusions, the individual will be responding to these elements.... as an individual and.... subjectively.

When current behaviours and emotional responses are deemed to be no-longer-useful, it's good to know that these behaviours and responses can be adjusted.
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maximus242
post Jul 25, 2006, 05:31 PM
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QUOTE(Rick @ Jul 25, 01:05 PM) *

QUOTE(Lindsay @ Jul 25, 11:05 AM) *
... Time is a dimension. Like every dimension, time does not pass; we pass through it. ...

That's a common misperception, and the basis for the Calvinist error. If time were a dimension, then Calvin would be right, the past and future would exist immutably. Predestination would be a correct dogma and free will would not exist.

In reality, time is not a physical dimension. The past and future do not exist. There is only now. We have memories and records of the past, archeological evidence and history texts. The future will be what we make it. It is not pre-ordained.

The mathematics of Einstein's theory of relativity treat time as if it were a dimension, similar to the three spatial dimensions, but that is only a mathematical model. In any model of physics, the variable "t" (time) can be replaced with an equivalent expression using energy. For example, kinetic energy is expressed as E = mv^2, and velocity is expressed v = d/t. Solve those two forumlas for t and substitute that expression for t wherever it occurs in physics. Time then disappears from the equations. Nobody does this, of course, because the resulting formulas are so cumbersome as to be unusable. However, it shows that time is a computational convenience, not a physical dimension.

For more information on the correctness of my view see A World Without Time: The Forgotten Legacy of Godel and Einstein.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/046509293...glance&n=283155



I have to agree Rick, time in itself is simply a human way of describing a change in events, nothing more.
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pave
post Jul 25, 2006, 10:35 PM
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Meanwhile, for all of us, "time" is construed in linear terms. We have memories that are linear, histories that are linear, texts that are linear, physical aging that confirms that "time" is passing and, most importantly - each other to confirm the shared reality.

So, a question remains nevertheless: Do our "minds" always work as-if "time" were linear.

The answer is: Sometimes, but not always.

Our minds, it can be demonstrated, have the capacity to jump around all over the place....past, present, future and to those experiences where "time" is compressed, speeded up or held to a standstill. Our minds can also eliminate whole sections of "time".

Since this is the general, subjective case, it would seem not unreasonable that our minds can also be taught to manipulate our responses to the already-mentioned elements.

Effective Communications - either self-induced or assisted, to my mind, is the next great frontier that everyday folk like ourselves can be participants... if not pioneers.

NLP and Hypnosis are two of the fields where competent practitioners are already making extraordinary inroads.

And on a personal note (and at the risk of soiling the discussion) - it sure beats the hell out of the sub-standard and unsatisfactory sets of panacea that Organized Religions have offered over the centuries.
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post Jul 27, 2006, 08:49 AM
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QUOTE(OnlyNow @ Jul 25, 10:21 AM) *

...why on earth would we replace it with something beginning with a silent "g"? How 'bout dropping the "g" or better yet, starting from scratch with a whole new word?
Okay, in the spirit of dialogue, I wouldn't object to using "knowsis". I actually used it with a client today, who got the idea and liked it, very much. However, I actually prefer "pneumatherapy", which I think of as working with psychotherapy and somatherapy.

BTW, I understand that 'diagnosis'--meaning through inquiry, investigation--contains 'gnosis'. So does 'prognosis'--meaning forecast of a probable course of a disease, or an estimate of what will probably happen. Both concepts include knowledge of something.
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